They Changed My God

RSaxena: #233

``If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!``

LOL!!!!

I gotta tell ya, when you`re funny, you`re funny!

(ummmm...which is not all that often, despite ur claims)

RSaxena: #233

``If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!``

LOL!!!!

I gotta tell ya, when you`re funny, you`re funny!

(ummmm...which is not all that often, despite ur claims)

Re: TAhmed

``One thing for now on your post: thanks for the invite to join the Atheists Society. I might consider it after I am through considering joining the Flat Earth Society. :-)``

If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!

Krashid #226:

Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.

tahmed #224:

I salute you for attempting to see another point of view.

I do not agree with your examples for religious killings. There is a big difference between religiously sanctioned killings and religiously motivated ones. Though both are bad. Just imagine if a Hindu religious book said ``Kill Mulsims and there is a prize waiting for you in heaven``.

Do you think the Hindu zealots will stop with Missionaries and Gandhi? Even without such a decree the zealot Hindus have been rampaging thru minority peoples, just imagine if there was also religious sanction for it.

I was thinking about your DNA example. But, that is one outfield way of looking at things. The more logical one is that there are boo boos in the Quoran that need to go or be re-organized for modern followers.

Who is going to do it? Where is the Mohamed Luther we are all waiting for.

Then again, we are the ones we have been waiting for!

Zahra #223 Better late than never. I have been getting into too many quarrels recently (hamidm, now Sadna). Maybe it is time to give my chowk post-writing a bit of rest...

RSaxena #225 Thanks for your post. I have used up all my chowk-posting energy writing to krashid, but hope you will give it a look-over too when you get the chance. One thing for now on your post: thanks for the invite to join the Atheists Society. I might consider it after I am through considering joining the Flat Earth Society. :-)

krashid #226 ``But if one can grasp the concept of Tawheed then he has got the basic message of Islam.``

This is truly the essence of Islam. Some years back, I volunteered as Sunday School Islamic teacher where my children went. We spent a full month discussing this concept alone. As a concept and how it applies to real life. That is, if there is only one God that we worship, it also means we do not worship (take your pick): (a) other men, as in status conscious Pakistan where bootlicking those above you is an art form with politicians, bureaucrats, landlords, mullahs, and something that rivals the ``petra`` concept of ancient Rome; or in hero-worshipping Arab societies, as in Iraq where Saddams ugly posters show him with more changes of clothes than Barbie doll (Saddam in grand military uniform, Saddam in Armani suit; Saddam with dashing western hat and dark glasses; Saddam in traditional Arab dress on a white charger no less); (b) money, on which enough has been said in chowk for me to add anything; (c) fame, as in ``Bhutto the grand third world leader``.

We have, of course, some fine examples in Pakistan of those who practice Tawheed - those who stand up for the many injustices in our society, those who quietly did their duty in 1965, those who devote themselves to opening primary schools across the country. Those are the true heroes of our society and show us what the true meaning of Tawheed and therefore of Islam.

Thing is: you dont need a PhD to be a good muslim. I dont care much for Maulana Maudoodi myself (although you are entitled to your views) since I think that by introducing politics in Islam he did untold damage to the cause of Islam and of Pakistan. No amount of scholarship can compensate for the grave travesty that has been done to our religion and to our society as a result of his ideas and Zia`s actions.

I take your point about the intricacies of the Arab language, but the message is so simple and repeated in so many different ways, that I dont think it is necessary to read what people over 1400 years interpreted it to be. Most of them obviously did not get it right anyway (the sufis for example twisted the concept of Islam by seeking to join God in this life when Islam asks us to focus on living a good life and that they would meet God in due course after death anyway)and over-complicated things.

Put another way, if we spend all our time reading the manual and reading manuals written interpreting the manual, when are we going to have time to actually do what the manual says we should do? Like learning about God`s creation (science), like making ourselves capable of earning an honest living (professional training), like working towards more humane and just societies (public service, in the finest sense of the word), like promoting goodwill towards all.

tahmed312 214

`` ... enjoy your playing spy vs. spy (this is with respect to the two cartoon characters that are constantly trying to pull a fast one on the other, in case someone in chowk starts thinking that I mean RAW vs. ISI)``

no no - Hekyll and Jekyll is more like it !!

aicha

TAhmed 321 #

Few things on interpretation of Quran.

I think the preface to Tafhim-ul-Quran by Maulana Mowdudi is very good, regarding Quran`s presentation the way it is.

Although I agree that Quran should be read individually to understand its meaning by common man. To get the basis.

But there is a catch. Without any reference, because of the richness of Arabic language, its meanings can be taken to extremes or selectively.

For example the Shia give validity to Imamat by Ayah ``Atiullah Wa AtiurRasul Wa OoliulAmr Minkum``. But a reading of Hadith and other historical sources depicts that these Ayah came when Adi bin Hatim was made commander of an expedition and people objected to it because he was young.

Although many of the Ayah of Quran are time specific, but have application for all times as such or in principle. And in that matter they are not time specific.

So although I disagree with sacredness of Hadith books, but I think they are an important source in understanding Quran.

I think these discussion will not end. But if one can grasp the concept of Tawheed then he has got the basic message of Islam.

JR#

Do you want to present flowers during a fight.

I will agree with you once your brave soldiers stop firing and SLAYing the Kashmiris.

The difference is We Slay after praying. You slay after drinking.

We Slay because we know it is in Koran. You slay because you preach peace, Ahimsa, secularism and democracy.

JR #221 I have no basic problem with what you are saying, and indeed I thought your ending sentence (on using that wonderful instrument between one`s two ears) was something I always say. (The Quran too asks people to maintain an clear mind and use their eyes and other God-given faculties, and I say this in passing not in order to annoy you).

Your comments on the benefits of clearer organization in the Quran are valid, and I wish that had been done. However, remember often in what seems to be a disorderly thing there is something very profound at work: only a couple of weeks ago they came up with a preliminary progress report on the human DNA which basically said that far from being an neat, well-organized set of molecules the DNA was in fact quite a zoo (containing bits of bacterial DNA that entered our common ancestor`s body millions of years ago, bits of DNA that seem to be mere free-loaders with nothing to contribute, and so forth). And yet, this messy DNA produces people capable of finding their way to other planets, not to mention physical perfections like your Ms. Asharwayia Rai. :-)

As for killing on religious pretexts, I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Unless you tell me that one of the most enlightened men of the 20th century, Gandhi, actually died of heart failure, or that the Christian missionary and his two young boys were burnt to death by muslims. I dont take this to mean this as proof that Hinduism is bad - indeed, I think it is a wonderful religion like other religions - but as proof that some men will do evil things in the name of religion.

Finally, you think I am too focussed on religion. Actually, I think we could use some religion (real religion, not the hate-filled criminal kind or the empty headed recitation variety) in the sub-continent. Religion is good for building character and providing some depth in our lives: read the transcripts from tehelka.com and the pathetic manner in which smart, pukka sahibs - generals no less - call out for whisky and petty bribes. (Our Paki brass is no different). Some training in ethics that lie at the core of all religions would have perhaps provided them some dignity and character to these people.

Re: TAhmed

``I did not know that the caste system is illegal in India. I think congratulations are in order.``

Congratulations may be premature because there are still a few boneheads who continue to propogate the problem. A couple of executions might help strike fear and set examples for the idiots to stop it completely.

``As education spreads, as professional classes grow stronger in both India and Pakistan, evil things that have been done in the name of religion are bound to disappear.``

I don`t know about that. Some of the smartest people I know (the guys who topped IIT) are tragically caught up in religion.

``As for the Quran, trouble is not that it is 1400 years old, trouble is that it has been ``embellished`` during these 1400 years by men.``

A book shouldn`t lend itself to easy misinterpretation by so many fools.

``Last year I read a very interesting book comparing the essence of major religions, and it was surprising how similar they all are in essence, and how easy it is for someone with any character to relate to these teachings.``

That`s all the more reason to do away with religion altogether. There are some universal values such as do unto others and never infringe on the rights of others to life, property, and personal freedom which everyone can accept and understand without religious hogwash. Religion obstructs this too often.

``The reason I stress religion so much is that I feel that in South Asia, due to excesses in the name of religion, people have been put off and therefore deny themselves a powerful source for strengthening character and facing the ups and downs of life.``

That`s precisely why you should become a card-carrying member of the South Asian Atheists Society.

``I would be glad to take you up on the atheist issue, but this post has gotten too long so we shall fight that one some other time :-).``

Sure but you`ll never win that one. I learned a little too much physics and have grown a little too weary of ignorant and violent religious nuts to ever fully accept religion.

``Thanks, although I hope ``my interpretation`` is not just one interpretation but something that is written loud and clear in the Quran.``

Well, I am afraid it appears to be an anomaly. Just look around on Chowk and you`ll see that you are in a minority amongst the Muslims...even supposedly educated and ``progressive`` ones.

Tahmed (219):

I am glad that you realized that. Great to find wise men on board! I just wished that you had realized it a little earlier.

Also, thanks for your considerate action on my last note.

Regards.

PS: As far as my suggestions are concerned, I would love to share them with you once they are clear in my mind[This was regarding the ``burning issue``].

tahmed321 #219
Thanks, but no thanks.

sadna #217 I dont think we are going to get anywhere on this discussion. Have a good day.

krashid #215 I must admit I have not followed all your interactions with RSaxena. The few that I read did seem to me to be a bit in good humor. Also, I thought RSaxena`s previous post to me was very reasonable, so clearly there is more to RSaxena than you may be giving credit for. Please dont put khak in my mouth (my parents had a tough time getting me rid of that habit when I was a child).