They Changed My God

DM ji
Satpal Daang and his wife Vimla Daang are still very much respected couple not only in Amritsar but all over Punjab.
You are right about the directions.That has been one of the main reasons for the mess in which the communist movement is today in India.

pardesi
I agree with you.Our sikh leadership still doesnot consider it a point worth considering.

DM ji
Satpal Daang and his wife Vimla Daang are still very much respected couple not only in Amritsar but all over Punjab.
You are right about the directions.That has been one of the main reasons for the mess in which the communist movement is today in India.

pardesi
I agree with you.Our sikh leadership still doesnot consider it a point worth considering.

would like to add another important thing:

`And if your Lord pleased all men on earth would become faithful. So do u want to force them into becoming muslim?`

(Surah Yunus-99)

u also say that if God existed why do things like innocent children suffereing take place?

.ofcourse what i will reply to it u mite not even care reading but still

According to Allah, what He has told us thru the quran, when we die and are presented before HIm, we will feel that we just spent a few days on earth and not a lifetime. then the eternal life will begin and the real pain and joy experienced.

and Allah is genderless.

for RSaxena and other atheists

the arguments u give for being an atheist from the few of the many of ur postings in reply here:

1.education needed not religious buildings.

2.science and religion conflict

my reply is:

The very first revelation of the Qura`an, Surah Al-Alaq Ayah 1-5:

[96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

Read! The first word Allah conveys to us through Qura`an.

and:

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding;

[21:30] ...And We made every living thing from water...

[24:45] And Allah has created every animal from water...

and the currently believed by the scientists that life did originate in water.

and i copy the following from an essay a friend composed:

Finally, the Qur`an gives a fascinating account of embryological development (the first three months) in the following verses (certain words have been transliterated directly from the Arabic):

[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.

[22:5] ...We created you out of dust, then out of a drop, then out of a MUDGHAH, partly formed and partly unformed...

Verse [23:14] divides embryological development into four stages. The first stage picks up right after fertilization (``drop``), and is characterized by an ALAQAH or ``leech-like structure`` which describes how the egg implants itself into the uterus (see above). The second stage describes the embryo as evolving into a MUDGHAH which means something which has been chewed (especially a piece of meat), or which has the appearance of having been chewed. This seemingly crude description is in fact quite accurate: after the fertilized egg lodges itself in the uterus, it begins to receive its first nutrients and energy from its mother. Consequently, it begins to grow especially rapidly, and after a week or two it looks like a ragged piece of meat to the naked eye. This effect is enhanced by the development of small buds and protrusions which will eventually grow into complete organs and limbs.

The next two stages described in verse [23:14] tell of bones being made from the MUDGHAH, followed by the ``clothing`` of the bones with flesh or muscles. If we follow the progress of the embryo with our own eyes, we find that after approximately four weeks, a process called `differentiation` begins, where groups of cells within the embryo transform themselves to form certain large organs. One of the earliest structures to develop in this stage is the cartilaginous basis of the human skeleton (in subsequent months, the cartilage hardens or ossifies). It is followed soon after by the appearance of a host of other organs including muscles, ears, eyes, kidneys, heart, and more. This maintains the order described in the Qur`an. Verse [23:14] concludes with the growth of the organism in the womb (and simple growth is the primary characteristic of the fetal stage) followed by its birth.

Verse [22:5] adds one more interesting note on the embryo. In this verse, the MUDGHAH is qualified with the phrase

``partly formed and partly unformed.``

....even my own knowledge of the quraan is incomplete, and i`d like to add that just like we need to know of a particular scientific field or anyother to talk of it, i say first gather knowledge about waht islam really teaches! then if Allah wishes He may turn ur heart...and if u still remain atheist ,..what can i say.

where can i have the original poem in urdu

JR:

Thanks for the intimate. Somehow, in my heart and heart, I was really feeling guilty for my penetrating questions. I am glad to hear that you are doing fine. My list of questions was longer than I had intended it to be. The real interest lies in knowing only 3 things. I will look forward to hearing from you.

Regards.

Zahra:

My reply to you was lost by Chowk!

I will connect with you on this later.

PM #308

It is not graciousness.

My belief is true for me. Your belief is true for you.

Inciting hatred against christians or jews is un-Islamic.

It is wrong actions and beliefs which are to be criticized. (Like changing the Ayah of Torah by Jews for some wordly benefit. Or selectively reading Quran to get a particular meaning I see no difference)

To give you both sides of picture.

I believe in pure monotheism. And to me the belief in Jesus as son of God is against it. But it is a matter to be decided by God and not me. So if you as a christian change your thought according to my belief you will be benefiting yourself and not me.

Compare that our Mullahs who incite to kill people because he is christian, or Shia, or another sect. That is inhuman. First if the religion cannot teach us humility and be afraid of God all the time then I think there is something somewhere wrong.

People have made religion into a joke for their narrow aims.

Now another aspect. Pakistan is a nation state. And it should act as such. On one hand Islamist think that Nation is against religion, and on the other hand kill their own brothers (like in Bengal) in the name of nation.

Since my only salvation left is in afterlife. (There is no hope in this world now for me:-)), I will say black as black without fear.

But in all sinceerity, my best wishes are not only for christians but all the down trodden people of Pakistan. I have seen enough to cry for my lifetime.

Krashid: #307

``So don`t confuse the issues. As far as taking Christians of Pakistan as friends or enemy is a moot question.``

I`m confusing the issue?!? Perhaps you read my last post in a hurry, so I reproduce the main para here for your kind perusal. Please read it carefully this time:

(PM #302): ``I have never categorized the Quran as bitgoted. I have simply stated taht there are verses in it that DO fan the flames of intolerance and bigotry, if read out of context. but hte problem is, as long as you hold that it is eternal and perfect, context becomes meaningless. Get it??``

I have no doubt that you, like most Muslims I know, are gracious enough to keep Christians as friends :). However, my point is that those extremists who would choose not to be as accomodative as your good self have some scriptural grounds for sustaining their hatred.

As for the `hearsay` issue, I guess I will have to go to my Pickthall after all..

later,

PM

PM #302

I again ask you to produce the evidence. This is hearsay, as far as I am concerned and laws are concerned.

The requirement for witness is male and other specification in Shariah is authenticity (i.e not false witness).

As far as taking friend does not mean taking friend in personal life. And I have christian friends also (and good friends).

It is related to Islam and its politics. And I think, it is better have a treaty rather than taking them as friends and relying on it. It is not a message of hate but advise. Which seeing the situation in current world regarding Christian and Jewish attitude towards Muslims and Islam politically looks to be a sound advise.

Regarding my profession, you can guess that I had pretty significant interactions with christians. And I found them as much human and as much like me as any other person.

So don`t confuse the issues. As far as taking Christians of Pakistan as friends or enemy is a moot question. Lets hope that they get their long due share in the steadily shrinking Pakistan pie.

Tahmed #297:

``I politely asked to be excused not because I do not wish to discuss specifics, as I am sure you know. Since a polite ``no thanks`` was not enough, ...`

Actually, if you go back, you`ll find that it *was * enough. I didn`t pursue it any further. If you were irked by my honest appraisal of the situation, wll, we know whose problem THAT is.

rgds,

PM

re. scout #295

``Don`t let harsh words get you down. I know you don`t care, but sometimes people can say mean things here (like me).``

Whaddaya mean I don`t care? See , if you cut me, don`t I ....? :-)

But the sentiment is much appreciated.

No, I didn`t hear about the Church`s run into with the the teletubbies.. what did they say it symbolized??

rgds,

PM

re. scout #295

``Don`t let harsh words get you down. I know you don`t care, but sometimes people can say mean things here (like me).``

Whaddaya mean I don`t care? See , if you cut me, don`t I ....? :-)

But the sentiment is much appreciated.

No, I didn`t hear about the Church`s run into with the the teletubbies.. what did they say it symbolized??

rgds,

PM

re. Zahra

Excuse me, but I still cannot read your remark as anything but pesonally directed. That said , perhaps your advice to break away is sound.

rgds,

PM

re. krashid 279

Can you enlighten us non-believers in democracy where in Koran or Shariah, the witness of two non-Muslims is equal to One Muslim.

You`re right.. When the Quran states a requirement of four male MUSLIM witnesses for a zina indictment, the implication is the FEWER non-Muslims would be permitted, right?

``There is another Ayah in Koran complimenting some christians who are looking for truth.``

I have never caegorized the Quran as bitgoted. I have simply stated taht there are verses in it that DO fan the flames of intolerance and bigotry, if read out of context. but hte problem is, as long as you hold that it is eternal and perfect, context becomes meaningless. Get it??

``But I think they are found in white christians only (although Quran has not specified that whether they can be found in Kale Angrez also).``

So which part are you disparaing here: the `Kale` or the `Angraiz`. Grow up! At least use labels that have some meaning. Not everyone Kala who opposes your version of the truth identifies with the Angraiz-- whatever taht might mean!

re. Tahmed #297

``let me put it more bluntly: I asked to be excused from your invitation to discuss your views in keeping with the good advice that one should not engage in an argument with a fool, since people may not be able to tell the difference. ``

ho hummm.. whatever!... I just thought you might take the time to point out which of my contentions was oh so ignorant, and why. But then, I guess you`ve learnt your lessons from arguing on those lines with Adnan. So it`s ok.. I understand your need to label me a fool and end it at that.

Now if you`ll excuse me too,

rgds,

PM

Correction:

Specially, if you are in one session for more than a couple of days, you end up seeings things; and not necessarily, singing the tune.


Tahmed:

If you are around, please let me know your email address. Or send me a note on Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com [I may have some thoughts on something that we talked about earlier]

Regards.

URS:

It`s a state of mind and it`s an extremely dangerous state - I agree :-)

The younger you are, the easier it is to go back and reflect on your past experiences. The older you become the harder it is to mould thy thought process, even if you want to. I had some senior colleagues in my class and I could tell what was going on.

Personally, I find such sessions mentally and emotionally challenging. Specially if you are in one session for more than a couple of days, you end up seeings things and not necessary singing the tune. That`s the killer. Seeing and Reflection!

Try that if you get an opportunity sometime.

Later.

Zahra:

I think we should take our ``negotiations`` to some other board.

I usually try to avoid people who have just come from attending a leadership seminar and dancing on the tunes of Mortal Combat.

Naah! I am just kidding.

PM #277 ``However, when questioned about specifics, they (``Tahmed`s of the world``, per your previous sentence) will either ask to be excused and/or accuse the other ignorance. Very convenient.``

I politely asked to be excused not because I do not wish to discuss specifics, as I am sure you know. Since a polite ``no thanks`` was not enough, and since you now try to be too clever, let me put it more bluntly: I asked to be excused from your invitation to discuss your views in keeping with the good advice that one should not engage in an argument with a fool, since people may not be able to tell the difference.

krashid:

``My thinking on this matter is that reforming Islam is an ongoing and dynamic proces.``

True. I would like to emphasize one point: Islam as commonly defined by many people has become what we choose it to be. If no basis is found in the Quran (as is the all too often the case), these people refer to some hadith if at all they bother to look for a basis. So Islam, as commonly practiced, is no better or worse than the character of the people practicing it. While revealed Islam is in the Quran which should not be changed one bit, and which provides basic principles for introducing civilized societies (to which the US is definitely closer than the middle east or even Pakistan or India), Islam as practiced is in the hearts and minds of people. And the latter I agree required reformation and is an ongoing and dynamic process.

You have at the end of the post explained what you believe is ``prioritization``: Kalima, namaz fasting. These are important, but more important is to know why we do them. That requires understanding, and understanding is helped by open and civilized discussion.

I guess this thread is now pretty much off the ``front burner``. I have always appreciated your basic views which are humane and based on common sense.

URS:

[The last thing I wanted from my post was to win an argument with you. No.]

I never alluded to that. But thanks for stating your intent!

[So you dont LIKE Jehad, fighting, or killing What is there to like? ]

This is all on one`s filter of perception. Though I never uttered ``do not like`` anywhere, I said I ``hate`` fights and I ``hate`` killings. You tried to downplay the intensity of my emotions; do not ever do that! You need to go back and spend sometime understanding the context in which I have used the word ``Jehad.`` Apparently, you like the concept without giving much thought - it`s your prerogative. I would never suggest you anything otherwise!

[As for the ``development of negotiation skills`` is concerned what do you think you will negotiate with Hindustani Soormas who gang rape 12 and 13 year old Kashmiri women. ......Secularism and Democracy? So when Kashmiri lions come roaring with vengeance and wrath of God and smite Hindus` necks off their torsos it is well deserved. Is there an alternative?]

I think the concept of ``negotiations`` kicked in as I just came out of some intense and rigorous Executive Leadership Training in the past few weeks. Such episodes make you realize the effectivity of many small, but petty things in life that can be handled differently. What you need is the orientation, the perception, the approach, the goal and the committment to handle them in an amicable way. Yes, you can become a barbarian any time you want to - it`s harder to attain the humane self.

Well, with all said, I won`t disgaree with you on the self-defense measures currently being undertaken by the villagers. This is not Jehad in any way or shape, URS. This is standing up for life. There is a difference. And life is granted by Allah Ta`ala and should be taken care of. Just like suicide is Haram; misusing the very essence of life is deplorable as well. So obviously you should fight for survival. I object to your usage of the word Hindus. I would have used Indian Army. It is a war based on territory and not on sects and religions. The sects and religions existed 52 years back as well - probably Lord M.B should have declared the state as an independent state from the beginning. But who could trust the Brits` wisdom personified selves, carrying the hidden message - ``Divide and Conquer!``

[No one likes war. But let me tell you this, a Muslim can be anything but a quadruped to be pushed around. No Ma`m. All we want is a right to live with dignity and respect.]

Well, I do not disgaree with your last thought as well - and in light of that I stated the current irony: when your religion is misrepresented as the religion of terrorists and killers than a religion promoting peace and harmony, there will be uproar!

Newsweek`s January 08th issue has a coverage on ``Women of the new century!`` The title reads, ``The age of Oprah`` - a worth reading article as well as some other good pieces. I ran into a Pakistani Woman`s name under the brief bios of the Women of the 21st Century - 29 year old, Amber Khan. She is actively promoting the constructive role of religion in public life and battling groups that exploit religious differences to gain political power. Her mosque in Illinois was burnt down in a hate crime. Checkout the issue and read more on that. There is not a lot of information as the bios are kept very brief, but still it was interesting stuff to see.

[US is the biggest defence spender in the world even after the Cold War. ........victims?]

Have you watched the movie, ``The Seige`` ? If not, do so! Annette Benning reveals a lot about what you have stated above while interviewing a Palestinian. It was simple, but very moving. You would not except to hear that from American Media.

[just because the sensibilities of some worthless godforsaken Pacifists are hurt?

Be Prepared? Yes, indeed. But be also prepared to withstand the outcomes of any haphazard, reckless, poorly thought, ignorant and emotional move. Life ought to teach lessons and not to make mistakes again and again. I am not blaming anyone, but I would hate to see people dying generation by generation making the same mistake. I would also hate to see killers killing generation by generation without realizing that they do not have the power to take away human life by force. It is encroaching the limits of someone else`s court. Well, obviously being a spectator puts one in a different position than being someone in the situation! Still, solutions are thought by human beings - if they care to seek one. Remember Hazrat Khizr`s[My very beloved teacher] insightful epsiodes - Hazrat Moosa could never understand the rationale behind all the actions. But it was the insight and the foresight that made him take certain steps to hit to the bottom - solution.

eklavya #291,

ameen

Patrick succeeding-at-being-embraced-by-some-chowkies Maseeh,

Don`t let harsh words get you down. I know you don`t care, but sometimes people can say mean things here (like me).

Do you remember the purple teletubby controversy and the Church denouncing what the little character symbolized?

The concept behind the show was wonderful, that people come in all different colors, and those colors were not just significant for skin tone, but experiences, culture, religion, and even sexual orientation (i believe the message was there).

I had a heated argument with one of my friends who refused to let her son watch the show because of the purple teletubby controversy. What a shame.

SameerJB

Welcome back. I hope your mom is feeling well now. I have all the best wishes for her health and your peace of mind.

SameerJB # 286

Wow! I hope that not only Muslims but also Hindus, Christians, and others will learn to focus on the humanistic kernel of truth in their religions, and move away from the absurd and exclusionary dogmas that separate one human being from another. The day we stop talking stupidly about my God and your God, peace and happiness will come much nearer our grasp.

PM:

In fact, your post # 275 is in the same context, what I was pointing out. I am surprised that you took my spontaneous comment very personally and JR`s open-arm invitation very lightly.

Yeh Kya Ho Raha Hae`? It seems that people lose sight of their own point of reference if they interact very regularly on Chowk. I guess it is better to take a break off-and-on! Just a suggestion.

Take Care!

PM[270 something]:

Ooops! It seems that you took my comment very personally and negatively. I didn`t understand very well why you took it, the way you took it, till I read your signature.

Well, I would have totally ignored your post; had the signature not been there :-) Take it easy! OK! If you thought I was being condescending to you because of your faith, you mistook it. I was born and bred in Catholic Schools - with lots of strict nuns and only Christian Teachers; in fact, only one Muslim[Shia-ite Teacher] who taught Islamiyat. And I have great regard, love and respect for all of them. I do not need to write anything after that.

I just found your note to JR very humorous and JR`s response to you equally humorous - kind of assuring you of something. That`s it :-)!

By the way, I do not like your way of expression that`s why I do not read your posts. There are too many pauses and I have a hard time to capture the flow because of the pauses. So, I have a reason to ignore thy ``coated posts!``


Take Care and Time Out!


PS: Do not divert and distract the course of my thoughts. Thanks.

JR #264 On ``Hindu religious killings``, as long as you consider it murder, and no different then murder on any other pretext (let me borrow your lines here: please say yes or no so we are clear on this point, not maybe) then we can agree on this point and move on. Dont elevate these murders by calling them ``Hindu religious killings``, since no religion should be associated with such killings.

You continue to believe that Islam condones such murders, and here we can agree to disagree (unless you are a muslim and plan to use this as a pretext to kill). I am sure the people who killed Gandhi or the missionary and his boys claimed they had the backing of Hinduism for this: I could listen to them and say that Hinduism condones such crimes, but I do not believe for moment (even without having studied the Hindu holy books) that any religion that attracts such a vast following can harbor such evil. You may similarly chose to define Islam as what the Quran says, or what bloodthirsty people say. But that is not the religion that was conveyed to mankind by our Holy Prophet.

``Whether you agree or not, young Muslim minds are taught the exact verses I quoted you to go out and put bullets in people of other faiths. Is this not religious sanction?``

No. I have not visited madrassahs myself but have a friend who knows them quite well and who tells me that there is no teaching of the Quran but the opinions of the mullahs are presented to the children. It is mullah sanction, not religious sanction.

``You are the first Muslim I have met who has publicly answered in the affirmative to the questions that there are verses in the Quran that are time specific, confusing and contradictory.``

Time specific is fine (since no one can argue that verses related on how to behave in the presence of the Holy Prophet, e.g., applied only during his lifetime). On confusing and contradictory, please keep this in perspective: Over-all the Quran is crystal clear. On important issues it repeats itself over and over again. It is confusing and contradictory only if one reads it with a view to finding such cases. You had asked me for a simple yes or no, and I had obliged on this point, since even one exception calls for a yes. But exceptions also prove the rule. So, please dont congratulate me too hastily in having courage to agree with you. I have courage to say what I believe is right and what I can see with my own eyes and understand with my on mind. And that is that the Quran is a wonderful gift to manking from God. If we chose to read it cynically and in support of preconceived notions (as both Islam bashers and the maulvis do, as I have seen from ample evidence by now), then it is their loss. People who are interested in seeking guidance on how to live their lives from the Quran and/or holy books of other religions are on the other hand the true beneficiaries of these books.

``I salute you for this, because it is the truth.``

Thanks, but keep in mind this explanation, and you can unsalute me if you wish.

``Let us not extrapolate the significance of this to mean that the Quran is not timeless and that Quran does not contain a beautiful message, but, let us take it to the next logical step - which is reform.``

OK, now we are getting somewhere. On reform: as I mentioned, reform lies with people. Not with the Quran.

``Reform may be - regorganizing the verses that are misleading and time specific and emphasizing the importance of context. ``

I guess you and I have different definitions of reform. The great strength of the Quran is that a book published in 12th century Egypt or in 16th century Turkey or in 18th century India or in 21st century US is exactly and precisely the same. One billion muslims across the world may differ in many, many ways but yet come together when it comes to reading the same version of the Quran. The Quran is a powerful source of strength for muslims. Better to do this: Emphasize intelligent study of the Quran, not meaningless recitation (which is what the vast majority of people I have seen actually do).

``In conclusion, the message of Islam needs to be reformed to cater to today`s questioning, educated ,rational believer. The exclusivism and dogmatism must go.``

Agreed. I have no problem with criticising the Islamic culture of the past 1400 years. That culture is not sacred, and has much to be criticized. We muslims need to stop glorifying people like Mahmud Ghaznvi and see them for what they are: looters and bandits who violated not just Hinduism but also the tenets of Islam when they violated places of worship of other religions. The role of women in Islamic societies is vastly in contrast to the proper role (remember: the only state mentioned approvingly in the Quran was led by a woman; Moses talks to his future wife before marriage; men are enjoined first to be modest, then women; I could go on, but it is getting late and I think you see my point).

``My goal is to bring home the message that the Quran is a guide to man very much like other religious books and that there is more to being a good human being than there is to follow a particular faith.``

Fair enough. I hope you will see faith as part of the solution, not as part of the problem.

PS I wont be able to respond quickly next couple of days, having some things to do.

Mr. Iqbal, sorry to use this space, but it`s rather important... for a good cause.....

I`m trying to help a kid pay for some IT course he`s taking at an SSI institute in Bombay. I need to ascertain the fee structure, and payment schedule for this course, as well as the duration... it`s called IMPACT.

Anyone willing to provide info may email me @ postmatser@yahoo.com.

Please do help if u can... It could give a helpless kid a `chance` at life.

With thanks,

PM

JR #232

The point was simple.

The slaying Ayah are for war.

You don`t present flowers during War.

If you can slay by preaching democracy, secularism and Ahimsa.

What is wrong if we believe that during war we should slay without saying that it is Oh well, you see India is biggest democracy on Earth, which country in Muslim world gives a sh-it to Kashmiris. We are followers of Gandhi and his Ahimsa etc etc.

Why using all these logic to kill Kashmiris. Just slay them because they are against India.

Because if you say it directly, the first question which will arise is does Kashmir belong to Kashmiris or India. Then we will go all along history to find out about it.

So it is simple, if you know what that meant.

Obsession with Borderline Issues

A flood of replies to a recent article at Chowk, What Constitutes Blasphemy?, speaks of an obsession by Pakistanis with borderline issues. Instead of condemning the burning of “The Frontier Post” offices and press in Peshawar, the sweating over the discussion about blasphemy is just one of several examples of the infatuation with religious dogma based society, ethics and morality. Other such examples include the branding of Ahmadis as non-Muslim, rights of women according to religion, Hudood ordinance, Riba-free banking and jihadis/ madaris phenomena. Let us face it. A total of less than ten cases of blasphemy, during last ten years in a population of 140 million does not really constitute a burning issue. An obsession with it is unjustified without any indication of marked increase in the number of cases, which are not expected to go up significantly in the near future. Neither Pakistan, nor Pakistani society is in any danger because of few cases of blasphemy. The obsession with the politics of blasphemy is a problem; blasphemy itself is not. The obsession with borderline issues is a direct consequence of our passionate attachment to the borders (frontiers) of Islamic dogma.

The concept of dividing everything between two extremes was originally a Persian, or Zoroastrian idea that was included into the Jewish thoughts during their exilic period. Both Islam and Christianity adopted this concept of two extremes into their dogma. It leaves out a great deal of gray area between extremes of black and white, heaven and hell, virtues and profanity and good deeds versus sins. Religious scholars relying on traditions, local cultures, Sunnat, Quran, Hadees and Sharia, in the case of Islam, later filled in the gray area. Several factors other than honesty and knowledge also contributed to the fame and acceptance of the work of these scholars. Relying strictly on the four pillars (Sunnat, Quran, Hadees and Sharia) or including the gray area interpretation into dogma are losing propositions either way. The inclusion of the thoughts of most Islamic scholars of past and presence makes it very Arabic in culture, often unacceptable and unbelievable, while ignoring it leaves us relying exclusively upon pillars with no exegesis about gray area.

It is precisely the relying exclusively upon pillars that determines our obsession with the dogmatic borders, leading to our obsession with borderline issues. Most will consider it stupid if all Pakistanis were only concerned with Pakistani borders and not about mainland problems. Pakistan can not be adequately defined only as what is west, east, north and south of Pakistan. Similarly religion defined and practiced preferentially in terms of extremes or borders is wrong.

Using the idea of two extremes in every situation is simplistic and sometimes outright stupid because most real life issues actually fall somewhere between the two extremes. The biggest weakness of such a simplistic concept is its resistance to reformation (interpolation and extrapolation). It is the in-built uncertainty of the credibility of interpolation between only two data points (G for Good and B for Bad) separated by a large gray area of unknown dimensions. In India and China, sages realized the problem early on and over the centuries added new data points between G and B, in both practical and speculative (spiritual) areas. In Islam, scholars also filled in data points between G and B but the limitations of thoughts within the narrow bounds of core beliefs and scholars’ association often with the courts of ruling elite led to devising ideas that were for the benefits of elite and more suitable to Arabs than other people. Moreover, the limitations and rigidity of two extremes led to additional data points (new concepts) within close proximity of G and B and were suitable for a particular time frame only. The biased nature of additional data points and extreme nearness to G and B kept them precise but not accurate for future reformation.

When knowledge and ideas are confined too closely to narrow dogmatic concerns (restricting unbounded evolution of thought) then the use of propaganda/marketing techniques, to enforce absolute and unquestioned submission becomes a necessity. In order to keep the faithful well away from thinking about a middle way, balanced and rational, exaggerated and obsessive controversy over borderline issues (issues which show no potential for becoming truly significant) is promoted by the self appointed custodians of Islam, and presented as a danger of immense proportion.

Think of fervid emphasis on Islamic appearance and dress code for men, a bearded face without moustache and a trouser few inches above the ankles respectively. This is worse than even borderline issue when it comes to contributing meaningfully to peace, prosperity, family, friends, society or state. Nothing but a waste of time and energies that should be spent dealing with other more important issues. What is there to gain from such an issue? Are there problems with the current appearance and dress code of Pakistani men? Not only it is a worthless and bogus issue; it is in sharp contrast to the general traditional outlook. Throughout our long history, most men were peasants. They had moustache much more often than beard and wore a piece of loincloth often above their knees. Most women also worked alongside men and more portions of their legs were visible than Islam allows. All such customs and traditions were developed to make it more manageable in a particular work environment and acute weather conditions during summer and monsoon months. All of this should not become obscene just because some 900 years ago, Mahmud Ghaznavi set his eyes at the wealth of Somnath temple. It sure did replace one clergy class with another.

The clergy class, the Mullahs, semi-Mullahs and Mullahism in general is responsible for substantial part of the blame for our obsession with borderline issues. They are more obsessed with dogmatic borders than the population at large. A good example of this mindset is their definitions of Hinduism and Buddhism in terms of negative religious extremes. To them, Hindusim is nothing but idol worshipping and strict caste system whereas Buddhism is ascetic way of life, abandoning all participation in the worldly affairs. They know nothing of the core philosophies of self-knowledge, self-discipline, vision, truth, dharma, karma etc of Hinduism and middle way, interdependent arising, nature of reality etc of Buddhism. The reason is simple. They do not feel it necessary to learn or accept guidance from any other source when, according to their belief, Islam is the complete and ultimate source of wisdom. Anything contradicting their brands of Islamic concepts is not worth knowing and anything approving of their concepts from outside is unnecessary. They should have been treated like any other artisan or professional classes. They are paid for their services of leading prayers and presiding over marriage and funeral ceremonies. When a barber is not asked for his opinion about carpentry, a lawyer is not asked for prescribing medicine then why Mullahs are asked for their opinions in the areas beyond their specialty? In a free society, barbers, carpenters, lawyers and doctors all have the right to express their opinions about any issue, but to impose a particular set of ideas, they must all follow the proper channel of becoming the elected representatives-to be able to include their philosophies into laws. Mullahs do not mind of imposing their opinions because they think themselves of divinely ordained. The power politics, arms-twisting, street power and violence are all considered acceptable modes of operation for them because they think of it as performing God’s work. Our communities and society must reject their influence and restrict them to the area of their specialization.

Other weaknesses of a passionate attachment with the extremes only are the flip side of this philosophy. When the gray areas within the bounds of philosophical principles are not well filled in, the foundation itself is weak and easy to overturn. For example, the concept of a creating a society devoid of sins (narrowly and dogmatically defined), implies a small homogeneous society, and not a large and diverse one, teeming with humanity. In the past, the uncertainty over the length and breadth of the gray area had led to a different set of philosophies about the nature of absolute reality. Both extremes were completely merged into singularity as in the cases of various sects of Buddhism, Zen, Sikhism, certain branches of Sufism and non-dualism of Vedanta school of thoughts in Hinduism. No need to worry about borders when borders are indistinguishable from the main body. Similarly in the famous eastern yin-yang philosophy, the good and bad are intertwined and inseparable with the elements of yin present in yang and vice versa. It is impossible to argue for amputation of hand or stoning people to death when both virtue and vice or good and bad are so closely related and part of same natural mosaic. Such punishments clearly indicate the wide separation of G and B in Islamic traditions. That is why the self appointed custodians of Islam are up in arms to force an unnatural and inapplicable code of ethics upon society out of their believe in the infallibility or godliness of these values.

A variety of structures are possible to built around core principles, the pillars, in every religion depending upon the necessity of time and place. The keys are flexibility of imagination, desire for improvement, realization of the drawbacks of the old structure, reason and rationality. Both material and skills should be borrowed freely from others but make sure to build a structure, none of Muslims feel uneasiness in identifying with it. This is what is important and not if the pillars are visible from outside or take the center place in the structure. Islamic Fundamentalists, the JI, JUI, JUP, SSP, Lashkars, Harkats, Hizbs and Mullahs disagree with it. Their obsession is with the pillars and not the renovation or remodeling the old building. The borderline issues, related to dogmatic frontiers, from practical life will remain the primary concern for these folks. Their longings are for achieving (or imposing) a replica of society as closely resembling as possible of 7th century Arabia. What about those who do not wish to be part of such an experiment? Not everybody is obsessed with such an idea or with dogmatic borders. Will they be treated as equal citizen of state or delivered with the same punishment meted out to opponents, though fellow citizen, in 7th century Arabia?

Some of the real problems of South Asians were provided in another recent article, Hands Across The Border, at Chowk. “500 million South Asians live in absolute poverty, 230 million South Asians lack protection from disease, 620 million have no access to safe drinking water, 800 million lack decent sanitation, 50% of the world`s illiterates is in South Asia and 90% of the world`s blind are in South Asia.” Although the numbers are for South Asians but a mere division of these numbers by ten will yield a rough estimate of the number of Pakistanis facing these problems.

The pre-occupation with insignificant extremes in the name of religion is misplaced, misguided and retrogressive. It will only lead to frustration, depression and a fractured society because the fervent emphases placed on ideal Islamic principles are unachievable. A life spent for peace, harmony, reason, rationality, family, friends and society is much better than a life spent fighting for borderline issues related to dogmatic frontiers only. Whether obsession inspired militancy had any place in Islam is irrelevant now. Their harmful effect in the form of disorderliness and destabilization far outweighs any benefits in modern large heterogeneous and pluralistic societies. Is militancy a preferred way of securing a berth in heaven after judgement day?

P.S. This post was submitted as an article to Chowk about a month ago. I assume that it was rejected. Unfortunately, for personal reasons, I would not be able to actively participate in discussions for few months. I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for interacting with me.

Sameer

TAhmed #

On various posts.

My thinking on this matter is that reforming Islam is an ongoing and dynamic proces.

Since there is no church in Islam to guide a certain version as truth.(The Shias are also slowly moving in the same direction as Sunnis in this regard)

The society itself produces many variations in thoughts from ultra right to ultra left thoughts within Islam.

For example the interpretation of Islamic scholars like Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, and Maulana Mowdudi is much in variance with traditional Barelvi Islam in Indo-Pak.

And your interpretation is much in variance with people like Urstruly and Adnan.

I agree with you at one point. Quran needs to be read and understood by each and every person and this task should not be left to some people calling themselves the sole interpreter of Islam.

I believe in One Hadith when prophet send a person for ``Tabligh``

And told him.

First invite them for Kalma.

If they accept that then invite towards Namaz.

If they accept that then invite for fasting.

I think before scholarly discussion, these things are much more important (That is the reason for me liking Tablighi Jamat more than political Islamic parties.

They Changed My Goat

A group of young men were goats’ herder. They had to go away in the wilderness with their flocks for days in search of meadows. One day another young herder, a recent graduate from Hizb-Ul-Goat Madrassah, joined them. He inquired the herders about the working conditions and about the sexual outlet during the time they are in the wilderness. The herders pointed to the flock and said, “we take one of them in the woods………..”.

After few days, the newcomer had the urge and took one of the goats on a date to the woods. What is your name, he asked? Reason, the goat replied.

I will do anything to please you-you just have to tell me. I promise to obey you unquestionably and seek out opportunity to sacrifice my life for you. You are the only one, I will ever love……herder pledged.

Do not be so stupid. You created us for providing you with milk and meat. You selectively bred us to one species that was most suitable to your needs. Had you not interfered, we would have been several species, adapted to varying environments. Not only you created us but have been putting words in our mouth also. Funny, now you have become slave to your own words put in my mouth……goat replied.

You are not the same goat, I loved during my childhood. I used to walk with you outside, in the grass, in the trees, in the streets of Islamabad. You were so loving, caring, tender yet simple to understand. You were the same year after year. You have been so changed now. I want the same good old time goat…..Herder responded.

Sure! You must be thinking about the days leading to the Bakra Eid. Why did you leave out about what you did to us on Eid day? How can you claim to love us one day and slaughtering us next day? Grow up, man! Is this your style of love? You are nothing but crazy. Just imagine your countrymen kill 700 million dollars worth of goats and spend another 300 million dollars on Hajj, within a short period of three days every year. For the rest of year, you are begging 50 millions here, 100 million there from WB, IMF, and criticizing the government for lower savings rate and poor shape of the economy. This is terrible way of money circulation. It takes long time for some of this money come back to the banks. The Airline industry does not benefit either from Hajj flights. Pour this one billion dollars per year in the economy by buying home-made consumer durables, increase savings or even spent this much money on education or renovating your homes for three years and you will see the economy turning around. It is easy to blame the corrupt and inept governments when you and your countrymen have displayed irresponsible behavior throughout the last 50+ years. Compare that with your expatriate community. They are richer than you are but spend their money wisely, on family and friend, buying houses and cars. Aren’t they smarter by not getting killed in stampedes, tent fires and epidemics in the desert and not flocking to slaughterhouses in USA, Canada and Britain during these days? You bet I am changed because I believe in dynamic world and you would like it to be static………goat lectured angrily.

You have become a ba-ba-black-sheep, influenced by the west, CNN and BBC. I know this for fact because our “Aslaf” a.k.a. Mullahs told us so in our Madrassah. They are the best. They know the absolute truth and everything about everything worth knowing. What you just lectured me is your own deep thinking and does not have the seal of approval from the higher authority. You are only important if you repeat the words that we put in your mouth over the centuries during last 3000 years. Although I can not refute what you said but strongly disagree with them for not having the seal of approval. I will only submit to the words with seal of approval from higher authority……..Herder replied.

What is the proof of the seal of approval except for your belief? I think we have irreconcilable differences of opinion about wisdom. Sorry to disappoint you but I am not interested in prolonging this discussion with someone opposed to reason………..said goat and left.

The herder came back and took another goat named “Submission” with him to the woods. Before herder could start a conversation, she made it very clear that she would not discuss anything and expects nothing short of submission. So JUST DO IT.

After a while, herder and the goat came back to the flock and all his buddies started laughing at him. Why are you laughing; Isn’t this what you suggested…….herder asked?

We are not laughing at what you did but laughing because you picked the ugliest goat…..they said.

Urstruly #239

Can you elaborate on the Arkaan and components of Islam. How they came into being.

Because many scholars don`t believe in components or pillars of Islam as such.

What do you think?

Also denying Jihad is as much against Islamic teachings as denying prayer.

And Koran says that although you are afraid of Jihad (due to fear of death), but in it is your life.

I think the best service for Islam would be to bring it out of drawing rooms of scholars to every persons domain.

Layman #249

I think you are confused about specification of gender to God.

It is the limitation of Arabic language which has to speak he or she when specifying a living.

But Quranic concept of God and as elaborated by scholars is not like a person. In fact it is a sin to think about God in a material form.

So the Islamic concept of God is through HIS (for a lack of word) attributes.

-One, Self-sufficient, neither was born, nor gave birth, no body equals HIM, has been forever and will remain forever etc etc.

This strong concept of God is one reason for dislike of any form of idol-worship for a Muslim (in theory).

Zahra #246 or is it 256#

Your thoughts are not only interesting but to the point.

Initials are the basis of Islam.

Any movement like Jamat-e-Islami which forgets this basic thing is going to err.

Jihad in Islamic world in this century has mainly taken the form of resistance movement. You can say it is Nationalism in the name of Islam. Whether it is Islamic or not, Islam is a powerful moving force to unite Muslims wherever they are.

For example Kashmir Liberation movement is being fought in the name of Jihad. But essentially it is a resistance movement for the liberation of Kashmir.

Similarly, the so called Islamic revolution in Iran was basically an anti-Imperailist revolution for assertion of National aspirations of Iranian people.

The courage and persistence which faith gives is very strong much to the chagrin of oppressors like India and past America.

This resistance movement has utilized in past names from Communism to socialism to Nationalism and has been similarly welcomed by the people doing the struggle and maligned by the oppressors in a similar way.

In the last a verse.

Hum Ne Hamesha Khilayein Hain Aag Mein Phool.

Naa Un Ki Haar Nai Hai Na Apni Jeet Nai.

PM #263

Alas the curse of democracy is such that you can write even without knowing and just need two hands to make it authentic. Probably if JR and AD will say that you are right, then according to democracy you are right.

Can you enlighten us non-believers in democracy where in Koran or Shariah, the witness of two non-Muslims is equal to One Muslim.

And even if Quran did not tell me, I could not take you as friend. (If you know the meaning of friend, which I doubt). If you have so much respect for my views as evidenced by your writing, then your friendship with me will be a hypocrisy. If you understand this you will very well understand how the name of secularism and democracy is used to kill people. But I doubt that, that you will be able to understand this also.

So be my friend, if you like hypocrisy better than truth.

There is another Ayah in Koran complimenting some christians who are looking for truth. But I think they are found in white christians only (although Quran has not specified that whether they can be found in Kale Angrez also).

adnan,

you write:

``All this confusion u see arises when we try to force western norms over islamic law. Wht is decreed by Allah is final. We shd not try to make it compatible with ideas from other cultures.``

I wonder if you could provide a simple answer to this simple question (I can count on you not to obfuscate things):

Okay, here`s the question: Why do you believe that the Quran is Allah`s perfected word?

Thanks in anticipation,

PM

JR: #264

``Let us not extrapolate the significance of this to mean that the Quran is not timeless and that Quran does not contain a beautiful message, but, let us take it to the next logical step - which is reform.``

Well said!

``Reform may be - regorganizing the verses that are misleading and time specific and emphasizing the importance of context.``

OK... but who decides which are time specific and which are not? As long as the fundamental belief in the Quran as God`s perfect Word is upheld, you cannot suggest `reform`. The TAhmed`s of the world will go only so far as to accomodate the situational nature of some dictates. That at least *seems * reconcilable with perfection. However, when questioned about specifics, they will either ask to be excused and/or accuse the other ignorance. Very convenient.

Then there is the `Zahra` type of follower. Supremely content in their faith, seeing no connection between it and some of the grosser actions of its adherents. They`ll wax long and eloquent on the sublime nature of their faith, but will avoid answering simple questions like ``Does Islam/ the Quran give religious Minorites equal rights?`` Geez... who needs to get theoretical? -- after all we know that *we * bloody well treat non-believers as our consummate equals. Who cares about what the logical conslusions of enforcing Shariah might be?!

What I`d like to know is where the moral authority to challenge the fundamentalist reading of religion is to come from when even the self-claimed liberals cannot come out and say unequivocally that some verses need to go! That the Quran, beautiful as it`s central message might be, is NOT perfect; is not God.

But now I`m digressing.

You call for reform and the putting of verses into context. So tell me how you reform the law of witnesses (a non-believers testimoney being equal to half of that of a Muslim`s). I don`t think TAhmed is willing to discuss this with me. Perhaps he believes that the above is merely a figment of my imagination-- more evidence of my ignorance about Islamic law.

Besides, Mr. JR, appraently you are unaware of the warning in the Quran to ``beware of those who [say that the Quran is only partially right].. they will mislead you`` (not exact words, but I`m sure Adnan can provide chapter-and-verse.

To sum it up.. I agree with what you say about believers not being able to appreciate wahtever beauty or goodness might exist in their scriptures as long as they bouund to it by fear. Christians went through the same situation till Luther challenged the Church. However, the trragedy (as I see it) for progressive-minded Muslims is that the Quran is the self-referenced incontrovertable word of God... Rebellious Christains during the Reformation --whatever the power of the Church they were up against -- weren`t faced with this scrpitural impasse.

So the oft-mentioned hope in an Islamic Reformation cannot, IMO, take the route of 16th century Christianity.

It really would be interesting to see how Sunniism, at least, might reform itself. It *could * take place despite its (admittedly limited) retrogressive dictates, but one wonders how long it will be before the next wave of `quran-thumpers` arises to demonstrate why any straying at all from the letter of the Word is kufr.

Have a nice weekend ruminating on this :)

PM

re. Zahra #271:

``Chalo Shukar Hae that PM was greeted with open arms by JR.

Three Cheers!!``

tsk tsk... kya baat hai booha? aap ne JR ko ``insecurity`` ke barae me kuch farmaya??

So what is this obsession with PM words anyway? If you can`t answer `em, you try slippin` in these cute little attempts at pillorying?

Bohaut achha! Only, not everyone is as adept at artful dodging, digressive discourse and selective reading as your esteemed self.

Some of us actually think through the principles/beliefs we espouse. Being comfortable with them doesn`t negate the need to examine how they might be affecting others` actions and attitudes.

In short, not all of us choose to be delusionarily smug and intellectually complacent.



JR, does that answer some of the questions put to you by Her Coolness? Perhaps you will have to explain in your own words why the ``It works for me so it`s okay`` approach to isn`t the morally highest-evolved one.

Then again, some would choose not to agree with Aristotle`s ``the unexamined life is not worth living``. :-)

rgds,

Patrick dying-to-be-embraced-by-chowkies Masih

JR:

``PM #256: I am not a homophobe. I do not mind if you are gay or not... [and then a para more on gayness]...``

Geez brother, i mentioned that with tongue firmly in cheek. I thought you`d focus more on the main theme of my post.

But I guess there was nothing to say about it except ``I hear you!`` . Sometimes that`s all that needs to be said I guess.

:)

PM

adnan_672 #269: Thanks for enlightening us with your learned views on Islam. If you are initiating a discussion, I will beg to be included. :)

PS: I guess I don`t need to pay JR the 20 bucks I said I would when you boldly made that wager. :)



But seriously, I respect you for at least calling a spade a spade -- no `sanitzing`, no revamping to bring in accordance to (what you cal) `Western norms`. At least you show a llgical consistency that enables us to know where you`re going with your beliefs.



Don`t get me wrong, though, TAmed sahib... between you and Adnan, I`d have you as my friend/neighbour any day of the week. In any case, Adnan sahib has a divine sanction to not NOT befriend me or treat me as an equal, so I guess he doesn`t mind my saying this...

... Now if I can just find an axe to chop that spade...

rgds,

PM

PS: TAhemd sahib, uss bees dallar ke peecha itni snjeedgi sey kyooN puRrahay ho, yaar? khabi khabi toa meray baataiN muzaak me leyliya kareiN

Urstruly :

Presumably you have read Khaled Ahmed in this week`s The Friday Times ?

-Arun the Infidelator

JR:

I have very quickly skimmed through your posts which are indeed enlightening to some extent. I have a few questions before I highlight the points where I agree or disagree with you.


This is very ironic in a way.

You wrote that you have read the holy books of different faiths. I feel still you are looking for something to hold on to. Why?

Is it because you feel that there is a vacuum within you?

Is it because you do not have the sense of contentment within you?

Is it because when you see a person from one faith just relying on their book without any questions[in contentment]that bothers you?

Is the other person`s internal peace and harmony challenging to you in any way or shape?

Is there some hidden insecuity within you that obstructs your way to go by one faith?

Is there a hesitance to abide by a set of rules because you do not want to bind yourself?

Has the sense of freedom to experience the variety of different religions, overpowered the persuasion to follow one faith?


Being such a well read man[I hope JR is a guy than a gal; please correct me if it is otherwise :-)]how come you could not distill the best out of all and be able to apply that in your life and in the lives of the ones around you? This is an open-ended question. Despite my urge to add or assume more in this case, I will resist doing that.

After reading about all the faiths, why do you still find yourself questioning on the basics? Is it your own comprehension that makes you realize that you are just a human being and not ``A Master Magician`` and this very thought brings you back to reviewing this aspect of ``religion``? Probably, you question your own comprehension and interpretation more than you know or the ones around you know?

I do not mean to overawe you with these direct questions, but that`s how I am - very Direct and very Straightforward when something has been in the air for sometime and people are just beating about the bush than being up front about what is bothering them. In a way you have mentioned, but in a way you`ve diverted yourself from the original issue. There`s something that`s bothering you. And when you see the ones with ``blind faith`` you tend to question them. Well, do realize blinds cannot see you :-) The faith is very sweetly taking a nap in the heart; and logic dare not touch what the heart feels. Religion/Faith/Belief lies in one`s heart and not the head. Long time back, I had an interesting discussion with Sameer on this issue and I said something about the connection between Heart and Mind, but that`s an advanced phase of awareness. I have realized that over the past few years myself. And my tendency is to lean on the fact that beliefs and faiths are the matters of heart and that`s where the conscience and other things kick in when you try to adopt a route otherwise.

I would love to share a few personal experiences that shook my inside out and I was too naive[ I guess that`s not the right word here] or I should say I could not imagine myself going through it - I was too young and too innocent to experience that. It was a mixture of fear, belief, strength, balancing my inside with my composure and many other things. It has been 3.5 years, but I learnt many things about my ownself that I knew since my childhood but I took them for granted. In a way, I knew that I believed in something blindly, but I did not realize that my blindness in that ``something`` will be my savior or my protector in such a vivid way.

I love dramas; you must realize by now :-) I am kidding, but that incident and many like that were very insightful to me. The alignment of heart and mind is dangerously hard but the individual roles are very significant and stand alone.

PS: I have just written these thoughts in a go without looking back what I wrote, so just read them as a flow of thoughts than anything else.

Take Care.

PS: I do not doubt your intentions when you question; but I feel something has been cooking under the cool and calm composure of ``Sweet JR`` - I am just trying to understand the ingredients that were put during the cooking process and also since when has this ``gourmet dish`` been on the stove? - My gut feeling tells me that there are some ingredients that should not have been in the gourmet dish but they were added to see what results will come out ... I hope you can see the intensity of my curiosity :-) I do not cook, but I like to learn if there is something that may interest me. Open Minded in that respect :-)!

Later.

General Note:

Chalo Shukar Hae that PM was greeted with open arms by JR.

Three Cheers

! -- !! -- !!!

PM #263 Thanks for enlightening us with your learned views on Islam. If you are expecting a discussion, I will beg to be excused.

PS: I guess you never intended to pay JR the 20 bucks you said you would when you boldly made that wager.

PM (&JR):

[JR]: ``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?``

Why would there be no point in try to reconcile your reply with verses such as ``take ye not Jews aor Christains as friends..``, or `` ... where ye find them, slay them ...``? are these matters of interpretation?

Well it means precisely that. The Christians and Jews & ``others`` have certain rights they will be tolerated but ofcourse we will not befriend them etc etc. ok!



``Yeah, right. Now, is the penalty for apostacy the ....``

All this confusion u see arises when we try to force western norms over islamic law. Wht is decreed by Allah is final. We shd not try to make it compatible with ideas from other cultures.

adnan

urstruly:

Well said!

adnan

Urstruly #262,

Well said.

PM #256:

I hear you! I agree with your viewpoints.

I am not a homophobe. I do not mind if you are gay or not. I dont mind accepting a gay person as my bosom friend either.

I do not think being gay is wrong. I believe that a person born with an abnormality is as much human as anybody else - because that is the part about being human that is beautiful - being an individual, not being the exact same as somebody else.

PM #256:

I hear you! I agree with your viewpoints.

I am not a homophobe. I do not mind if you are gay or not. I dont mind accepting a gay person as my bosom friend either.

I do not think being gay is wrong. I believe that a person born with an abnormality is as much human as anybody else - because that is the part about being human that is beautiful - being an individual, not being the exact same as somebody else.

Tahmed #257:

I think you did not understand my view on Hindu religious killings. I do not condone or minimize the evil that is Hindu religious violence.

In fact I despise and loathe the BJP, RSS, VHP, Shivsena and other fanatic groups who kill minorities under the pretext of championing the Hindu cause.

The point I was making is that these groups perpetrate enough religious violence without religious sanction, imagine what they would if they did have religious sanction, like in Islam.

Whether you agree or not, young Muslim minds are taught the exact verses I quoted you to go out and put bullets in people of other faiths. Is this not religious sanction?

You are the first Muslim I have met who has publicly answered in the affirmative to the questions that there are verses in the Quran that are time specific, confusing and contradictory.

I salute you for this, because it is the truth.

Let us not extrapolate the significance of this to mean that the Quran is not timeless and that Quran does not contain a beautiful message, but, let us take it to the next logical step - which is reform.

Reform may be - regorganizing the verses that are misleading and time specific and emphasizing the importance of context.



In conclusion, the message of Islam needs to be reformed to cater to today`s questioning, educated ,rational believer. The exclusivism and dogmatism must go.

I know there are more that you and I do not agree on. Let us agree to disagree.

My goal is to bring home the message that the Quran is a guide to man very much like other religious books and that there is more to being a good human being than there is to follow a particular faith.

re. TAhmed, JR and my wager:

Ok. I lost... I guess. But it was worth it drawing a response forom you coz now we get to discuss...

--------begin quote---------

[JR]: ``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?``

[TAhmed]: ``Nope. Of course, we both disagree here, and no point in my trying to explain.``

--------end quote

Why would there be no point in try to reconcile your reply with verses such as ``take ye not Jews aor Christains as friends..``, or `` ... where ye find them, slay them ...``? are these matters of interpretation?

Situational? Maybe. But still no less ``encouraging of violence towards....``. What about the quranic dictates verses the weight of a non-Muslim witness`s testimony? Does that not encourage violence-- say, if the non-believers were to demand equal rights?

While I`m on the subject, here`s a little more cute sanitizing by those obviously gifted in the area of selective reading:

Zahra wrote:``Remember Haqooqul-Ibaad[Rights of Human Beings] was always given preference over Haqooq-Allah [Rights of God].``

Yeah, right. Now, is the penalty for apostacy the playing out of Haqooqul-Ibaad or Haqooq-Allah?

Ah yes, that penalty is not quaranically sanctioned. And Zahra`s quote is?

Urstruly Zinadabad! at least he`s under no delusions about the often stringent demands of Islam.

rgds,

PM

Zahra:

The last thing I wanted from my post was to win an argument with you. No.

So you dont LIKE Jehad, fighting, or killing etc. That is perfectly fine with me. I dont LIKE to get up at 530 in the morning for prayers eiter. Nor do I LIKE to give my hard earned money as Zakat to bums and measely widows either. Nor do I LIKE to travel to go to Hajj, shouldnt I rather be in Aruba. And who LIKES to stay hungary and thirsty from dusk to dawn during Ramadan. What is there to like?

As for the ``development of negotiation skills`` is concerned what do you think you will negotiate with Hindustani Soormas who gang rape 12 and 13 year old Kashmiri women. Do you think our enemy has a moral spine to at least condemn these hieneous crimes against humanity? They dont. Didnt we give 55 years to negotiation already? Do Hindus show any mercy to these children; do they feel any compassion when they burn the whole villages down? Do they even give a damn about human rights right under the pinnocio nose of Secularism and Democracy? So when Kashmiri lions come roaring with vengeance and wrath of God and smite Hindus` necks off their torsos it is well deserved. Is there an alternative?

No one likes war. But let me tell you this, a Muslim can be anything but a quadruped to be pushed around. No Ma`m. All we want is a right to live with dignity and respect.

US is the biggest defence spender in the world even after the Cold War. What are they gathering and developing those weapons for; for small timers like Osama Bin Laden? What about Indians-they have one of the largest armies in the world-for what? to give releif to earthquake victims?

Divine word is ``Khuzoo wa KHizra kum`` i.e. ``Be prepared (with your weapons)``. What should we do take word of these hulking monsters ready to devouver us, over our God`s, just because the sensibilities of some worthless godforsaken Pacifists are hurt?

Rsaxena: One more thing. I am aware of how the Church hounded Galileo, as you mention. You may be interested to know that while scientists in the Islamic countries in past centuries (people who contributed undoubtedly to the world in medicine, algebra and so forth) were also similarly hounded by the fundamentalists of their times. I have it on good authority (my younger brother, who reads such stuff between professional activities) that Ibn Sina (Avicenna, who inspired the rise of modern medicine in Europe) had to run for his life more than once, with the the spears of the Islamists following closely behind his behind. Our own Sir Syed was the target of mullah anger for daring to promote ``secular`` education.

I think the tension is not between religion vs. secularism. It is the tension of rationality vs. irrationality, science vs. superstition, understanding vs. ignorance, the brain cortex vs. the underlying reptilian brain that served our ancestors well until a hundred thousand years ago or so but is now more useless and a far bigger nuisance then some other atavisms we all inherit. Religion, when viewed from the irrational, supertitious, ignorant, reptilian aspect simply serves to provide a cover to these underlying driving forces. When viewed from a rational persepective, it can lift us to a step ahead of the frontiers of science.

That is what I think.

Re: TAhmed

``On the other hand, religion can provide us a firm anchor for promoting certain values in society ``

It ``CAN`` and ``SHOULD`` have provided that anchor but it has failed. Miserably. Isn`t time to look for some other anchors? How about education? If in place of every religious building in the world, a free school were to be built, imagine how much more good can come of it?

Re: Pankaj

``Most often, religion is used as a guise for meeting ulterior motives by the interested parties.``

Why give them that guise? The fewer, the better. Right?

Rsaxena #250 I agree that animals get a bad rap when we refer to some humans as animals. A deer never shot a hunter. While people seek to gain power and wealth and even kill in the name of religion, the motivating force is not religion. The motivating force is the same as that of people who seek to gain power and wealth and even kill for the heck of it (driven, I am sure, by deep psychological insecurities and so forth, but that is their problem and should not be made society`s problem). On the other hand, religion can provide us a firm anchor for promoting certain values in society - as I mentioned before, some non-religious folks in Pakistan (and India too, as shown by tehelka.com) have raped the country. The religious groups (the lashkars) are no replacement and are too stupid and weak to ever take power in Pakistan (my opinion). But all this goes to show the backwardness of our people. Religion is good or bad only if we make it so.

JR #246 Tahmed #240:

``But, where have I in my post condoned Hindu religious violence?``

Post #231 where you counter my example of the killing of the Australian missionary and his two sons by saying the there is a difference between killings sanctioned by religion (by which you mean Islam, incorrectly of course as I have pointed out but you seem quite determined to stick to this view) and killings motivated by religion. BS, I am sorry to say. Killing is killing, and to start drawing fine distinctions indicates the same line of thinking that got those killers to do the killing in the first place.

``Also, you say I insulted Islam. Please sir be real, if questioning something is insulting then are you asking me to leave my brains behind when I come in to pray?``

??

``I knew you would never cross that line and admit that there are many not so noble verses in the Quran.``

How can you be so sure? You dont know me other than through a couple of posts exchanges. This is the same presumptuousness that led PM to bet $20 that I would not respond to your post, which I am doing right now.

``Also, sir you are very good with convoluted explanations - your most recent is Accountancy?``

OK. No more of those since you have no use for them.

``Final - Simple questions- Do you think that there are verses in the Quran that are demeaning to women and followers of other faiths?``

No.

``Yes or No answer please - no DNA and accountancy, okay!``

No.

PS: I will not bother explaining my view since your mind is already made up, and you have been ignoring or downplaying every explanation I have tried to make on other points. So, have fun with your views on what Islam.

``Do you think there are verses in the quran that are confusing and contradictory?``

Yup.

``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that are time specific?``

Yup. (I said so in a previous post to you as well, but obviously you write better than you read).

``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?``

Nope. Of course, we both disagree here, and no point in my trying to explain.

``Prediction - I bet you will not answer, because it takes courage to say something is not right, even though for 1400 years people have said everything in it is right and timeless.``

You seem to know how lacking in courage I am without knowing who I am. You must be God.

``Also, you can accuse me all you want, but I am not insulting you or Islam. I am just asking some questions as a person who has read the Quran, the bible, the Torahs, Mahabharatha, Ramayana and the Gita. ``

More power to you.

``Also, please do not assume that I follow a particular faith. I dont. I believe in God and trust all religions lead there, but I disagree with fanatics who say their religion is the true faith. ``

Interesting definition of a fanatic. Incidentally, I never said this, and on this thread alone I must have repeated God (and you) knows how many times that there is nothing special about being a muslim (per the Quran, and per my belief). Again, your writing is very nice, but reading (and listening) seem to require some attention.

``Remember the anecdore about God (mill owner) and the cotton pickers. In the final analysis, God does not ask the cotton pickers which road they took to get to the mill, but asked them what was the quality of the cotton they each have.

So sir, are you about the quality of the cotton or about which road you took to get the cotton to the mill?``

The former (end product, these being deeds in case of humans). I dont recall saying anything in my earlier posts to give any impression other than this. Incidentally, I thought you did not like anecdotes and liked straight questions and answers.

PS: Dont forget to collect $20 from PM. I wont predict that he wont now ask for your mailing address so he may send you a check, since I am sure he means everything he says.

JR, #252:

(sigh!) A man close to my own er.. mind! (would`ve said heart, but rumour has it that I`m gay-- and I know how homophobic your average desi male is :) )

JR, I hear you-- loud and clear! I remember the terror I felt when I started questioning my religious beliefs at the ripe old age of 18-- just after deciding that perhaps non-Catholics (even those evil Protestants!) might actually have a shot at salvation and land of milk and honey and streets of gold (ummm... no one mentioned houris in OUR sexually repressive version of Paradise)

But through all the excorciating (sp?) pain that attended this questioning, one idea that never failed to revive the courage was that quip by Hazrat Essa that ``the truth will set you free``. Bam! I cannot fully express the imaginal and intellectual power of that idea to sustain this quest!

Yeah... why the heck should anyone/anybody be afraid of the TRUTH? And what should be my/our supreme value anyway? Faith, or Truth? Couldn`t we have faith in the truth being ultimately `good` -- no matter what it might reveal along the way.

I have the idea that Islam encourages it`s adherents -- explicitly anyway -- to question and take the rational approach to religion a lot more than traditional Christianity has-- at least this is waht I understand from some sayings of the Prophet himeslf about seeking knowledge.

However I guess Islam (or the Prophet) never foresaw those liberal/libeating dictums posing a threat to it`s own rather conservative, dogmatic `theological` foundations.

Sidebar thought: Islam wasn`t suppoed to have any theology in the conventional sense, but then, I guess man -- or religion -- cannot do without it. So we have the curious situation of many Muslims suggesting that reason is completely consisitent with religion, but exercising little of it beyond a certain point.

And that, dear JR (woulda said `sweet` but someone`s already cornered that market:) )was the point in my asking about your motivation. It would seem to me that reason can only go so far until it hits that wall called Dogamtic Faith -- beyond which lies the scary land of `kufr`.

Being reasonable is sometimes not so much a reasonable decision as it is a moral one.

Sheesh... now I`m beginning to sound like the priest I was supposed to be...

rgds,

PM

URS:

You wanted to make me feel bad for using the word, ``rubbish`` by giving all the details :-)
Clever Move! Thanks for the informative note, but my intent was different!

I know what you are saying, but I am not very positive on the intricacies of Pillars vs Components.[The way you have differentiated]. It has been a while since I have read the component- breakdown the way you have stated. I guess we learn that in our childhood so we take it for granted. Though I do remember it is mentioned in a long dua Eeeman-Something??? Sorry, do not remember.

I have used the word, Jehad in the context of wars/larayaan. I completely agree with your list, but that`s something I did not imply in anway or shape. You are also saying that there are Ayaats re-enforcing the purpose of Jehad. Yes, there are and I am not denying that. But Jehad is not the top priority or the main element of Islam. You mentioned 6th. There is a difference between 1st and 6th; similarly 2nd and 6th are not the same either. What`s number 1? What`s number 2? 3? 4? 5?......Then comes 6th.

At the time of your death, what`s the first question? Namaz or Jehad? Please clarify. Please read my question very carefully. I am asking what is asked? I am not saying what you will like to tell :-) There`s a difference :-)!


URS: