They Changed My God

TAhmed #

On various posts.

My thinking on this matter is that reforming Islam is an ongoing and dynamic proces.

Since there is no church in Islam to guide a certain version as truth.(The Shias are also slowly moving in the same direction as Sunnis in this regard)

The society itself produces many variations in thoughts from ultra right to ultra left thoughts within Islam.

For example the interpretation of Islamic scholars like Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, and Maulana Mowdudi is much in variance with traditional Barelvi Islam in Indo-Pak.

And your interpretation is much in variance with people like Urstruly and Adnan.

I agree with you at one point. Quran needs to be read and understood by each and every person and this task should not be left to some people calling themselves the sole interpreter of Islam.

I believe in One Hadith when prophet send a person for ``Tabligh``

And told him.

First invite them for Kalma.

If they accept that then invite towards Namaz.

If they accept that then invite for fasting.

I think before scholarly discussion, these things are much more important (That is the reason for me liking Tablighi Jamat more than political Islamic parties.

They Changed My Goat

A group of young men were goats’ herder. They had to go away in the wilderness with their flocks for days in search of meadows. One day another young herder, a recent graduate from Hizb-Ul-Goat Madrassah, joined them. He inquired the herders about the working conditions and about the sexual outlet during the time they are in the wilderness. The herders pointed to the flock and said, “we take one of them in the woods………..”.

After few days, the newcomer had the urge and took one of the goats on a date to the woods. What is your name, he asked? Reason, the goat replied.

I will do anything to please you-you just have to tell me. I promise to obey you unquestionably and seek out opportunity to sacrifice my life for you. You are the only one, I will ever love……herder pledged.

Do not be so stupid. You created us for providing you with milk and meat. You selectively bred us to one species that was most suitable to your needs. Had you not interfered, we would have been several species, adapted to varying environments. Not only you created us but have been putting words in our mouth also. Funny, now you have become slave to your own words put in my mouth……goat replied.

You are not the same goat, I loved during my childhood. I used to walk with you outside, in the grass, in the trees, in the streets of Islamabad. You were so loving, caring, tender yet simple to understand. You were the same year after year. You have been so changed now. I want the same good old time goat…..Herder responded.

Sure! You must be thinking about the days leading to the Bakra Eid. Why did you leave out about what you did to us on Eid day? How can you claim to love us one day and slaughtering us next day? Grow up, man! Is this your style of love? You are nothing but crazy. Just imagine your countrymen kill 700 million dollars worth of goats and spend another 300 million dollars on Hajj, within a short period of three days every year. For the rest of year, you are begging 50 millions here, 100 million there from WB, IMF, and criticizing the government for lower savings rate and poor shape of the economy. This is terrible way of money circulation. It takes long time for some of this money come back to the banks. The Airline industry does not benefit either from Hajj flights. Pour this one billion dollars per year in the economy by buying home-made consumer durables, increase savings or even spent this much money on education or renovating your homes for three years and you will see the economy turning around. It is easy to blame the corrupt and inept governments when you and your countrymen have displayed irresponsible behavior throughout the last 50+ years. Compare that with your expatriate community. They are richer than you are but spend their money wisely, on family and friend, buying houses and cars. Aren’t they smarter by not getting killed in stampedes, tent fires and epidemics in the desert and not flocking to slaughterhouses in USA, Canada and Britain during these days? You bet I am changed because I believe in dynamic world and you would like it to be static………goat lectured angrily.

You have become a ba-ba-black-sheep, influenced by the west, CNN and BBC. I know this for fact because our “Aslaf” a.k.a. Mullahs told us so in our Madrassah. They are the best. They know the absolute truth and everything about everything worth knowing. What you just lectured me is your own deep thinking and does not have the seal of approval from the higher authority. You are only important if you repeat the words that we put in your mouth over the centuries during last 3000 years. Although I can not refute what you said but strongly disagree with them for not having the seal of approval. I will only submit to the words with seal of approval from higher authority……..Herder replied.

What is the proof of the seal of approval except for your belief? I think we have irreconcilable differences of opinion about wisdom. Sorry to disappoint you but I am not interested in prolonging this discussion with someone opposed to reason………..said goat and left.

The herder came back and took another goat named “Submission” with him to the woods. Before herder could start a conversation, she made it very clear that she would not discuss anything and expects nothing short of submission. So JUST DO IT.

After a while, herder and the goat came back to the flock and all his buddies started laughing at him. Why are you laughing; Isn’t this what you suggested…….herder asked?

We are not laughing at what you did but laughing because you picked the ugliest goat…..they said.

Urstruly #239

Can you elaborate on the Arkaan and components of Islam. How they came into being.

Because many scholars don`t believe in components or pillars of Islam as such.

What do you think?

Also denying Jihad is as much against Islamic teachings as denying prayer.

And Koran says that although you are afraid of Jihad (due to fear of death), but in it is your life.

I think the best service for Islam would be to bring it out of drawing rooms of scholars to every persons domain.

Layman #249

I think you are confused about specification of gender to God.

It is the limitation of Arabic language which has to speak he or she when specifying a living.

But Quranic concept of God and as elaborated by scholars is not like a person. In fact it is a sin to think about God in a material form.

So the Islamic concept of God is through HIS (for a lack of word) attributes.

-One, Self-sufficient, neither was born, nor gave birth, no body equals HIM, has been forever and will remain forever etc etc.

This strong concept of God is one reason for dislike of any form of idol-worship for a Muslim (in theory).

Zahra #246 or is it 256#

Your thoughts are not only interesting but to the point.

Initials are the basis of Islam.

Any movement like Jamat-e-Islami which forgets this basic thing is going to err.

Jihad in Islamic world in this century has mainly taken the form of resistance movement. You can say it is Nationalism in the name of Islam. Whether it is Islamic or not, Islam is a powerful moving force to unite Muslims wherever they are.

For example Kashmir Liberation movement is being fought in the name of Jihad. But essentially it is a resistance movement for the liberation of Kashmir.

Similarly, the so called Islamic revolution in Iran was basically an anti-Imperailist revolution for assertion of National aspirations of Iranian people.

The courage and persistence which faith gives is very strong much to the chagrin of oppressors like India and past America.

This resistance movement has utilized in past names from Communism to socialism to Nationalism and has been similarly welcomed by the people doing the struggle and maligned by the oppressors in a similar way.

In the last a verse.

Hum Ne Hamesha Khilayein Hain Aag Mein Phool.

Naa Un Ki Haar Nai Hai Na Apni Jeet Nai.

PM #263

Alas the curse of democracy is such that you can write even without knowing and just need two hands to make it authentic. Probably if JR and AD will say that you are right, then according to democracy you are right.

Can you enlighten us non-believers in democracy where in Koran or Shariah, the witness of two non-Muslims is equal to One Muslim.

And even if Quran did not tell me, I could not take you as friend. (If you know the meaning of friend, which I doubt). If you have so much respect for my views as evidenced by your writing, then your friendship with me will be a hypocrisy. If you understand this you will very well understand how the name of secularism and democracy is used to kill people. But I doubt that, that you will be able to understand this also.

So be my friend, if you like hypocrisy better than truth.

There is another Ayah in Koran complimenting some christians who are looking for truth. But I think they are found in white christians only (although Quran has not specified that whether they can be found in Kale Angrez also).

adnan,

you write:

``All this confusion u see arises when we try to force western norms over islamic law. Wht is decreed by Allah is final. We shd not try to make it compatible with ideas from other cultures.``

I wonder if you could provide a simple answer to this simple question (I can count on you not to obfuscate things):

Okay, here`s the question: Why do you believe that the Quran is Allah`s perfected word?

Thanks in anticipation,

PM

JR: #264

``Let us not extrapolate the significance of this to mean that the Quran is not timeless and that Quran does not contain a beautiful message, but, let us take it to the next logical step - which is reform.``

Well said!

``Reform may be - regorganizing the verses that are misleading and time specific and emphasizing the importance of context.``

OK... but who decides which are time specific and which are not? As long as the fundamental belief in the Quran as God`s perfect Word is upheld, you cannot suggest `reform`. The TAhmed`s of the world will go only so far as to accomodate the situational nature of some dictates. That at least *seems * reconcilable with perfection. However, when questioned about specifics, they will either ask to be excused and/or accuse the other ignorance. Very convenient.

Then there is the `Zahra` type of follower. Supremely content in their faith, seeing no connection between it and some of the grosser actions of its adherents. They`ll wax long and eloquent on the sublime nature of their faith, but will avoid answering simple questions like ``Does Islam/ the Quran give religious Minorites equal rights?`` Geez... who needs to get theoretical? -- after all we know that *we * bloody well treat non-believers as our consummate equals. Who cares about what the logical conslusions of enforcing Shariah might be?!

What I`d like to know is where the moral authority to challenge the fundamentalist reading of religion is to come from when even the self-claimed liberals cannot come out and say unequivocally that some verses need to go! That the Quran, beautiful as it`s central message might be, is NOT perfect; is not God.

But now I`m digressing.

You call for reform and the putting of verses into context. So tell me how you reform the law of witnesses (a non-believers testimoney being equal to half of that of a Muslim`s). I don`t think TAhmed is willing to discuss this with me. Perhaps he believes that the above is merely a figment of my imagination-- more evidence of my ignorance about Islamic law.

Besides, Mr. JR, appraently you are unaware of the warning in the Quran to ``beware of those who [say that the Quran is only partially right].. they will mislead you`` (not exact words, but I`m sure Adnan can provide chapter-and-verse.

To sum it up.. I agree with what you say about believers not being able to appreciate wahtever beauty or goodness might exist in their scriptures as long as they bouund to it by fear. Christians went through the same situation till Luther challenged the Church. However, the trragedy (as I see it) for progressive-minded Muslims is that the Quran is the self-referenced incontrovertable word of God... Rebellious Christains during the Reformation --whatever the power of the Church they were up against -- weren`t faced with this scrpitural impasse.

So the oft-mentioned hope in an Islamic Reformation cannot, IMO, take the route of 16th century Christianity.

It really would be interesting to see how Sunniism, at least, might reform itself. It *could * take place despite its (admittedly limited) retrogressive dictates, but one wonders how long it will be before the next wave of `quran-thumpers` arises to demonstrate why any straying at all from the letter of the Word is kufr.

Have a nice weekend ruminating on this :)

PM

re. Zahra #271:

``Chalo Shukar Hae that PM was greeted with open arms by JR.

Three Cheers!!``

tsk tsk... kya baat hai booha? aap ne JR ko ``insecurity`` ke barae me kuch farmaya??

So what is this obsession with PM words anyway? If you can`t answer `em, you try slippin` in these cute little attempts at pillorying?

Bohaut achha! Only, not everyone is as adept at artful dodging, digressive discourse and selective reading as your esteemed self.

Some of us actually think through the principles/beliefs we espouse. Being comfortable with them doesn`t negate the need to examine how they might be affecting others` actions and attitudes.

In short, not all of us choose to be delusionarily smug and intellectually complacent.



JR, does that answer some of the questions put to you by Her Coolness? Perhaps you will have to explain in your own words why the ``It works for me so it`s okay`` approach to isn`t the morally highest-evolved one.

Then again, some would choose not to agree with Aristotle`s ``the unexamined life is not worth living``. :-)

rgds,

Patrick dying-to-be-embraced-by-chowkies Masih

JR:

``PM #256: I am not a homophobe. I do not mind if you are gay or not... [and then a para more on gayness]...``

Geez brother, i mentioned that with tongue firmly in cheek. I thought you`d focus more on the main theme of my post.

But I guess there was nothing to say about it except ``I hear you!`` . Sometimes that`s all that needs to be said I guess.

:)

PM

adnan_672 #269: Thanks for enlightening us with your learned views on Islam. If you are initiating a discussion, I will beg to be included. :)

PS: I guess I don`t need to pay JR the 20 bucks I said I would when you boldly made that wager. :)



But seriously, I respect you for at least calling a spade a spade -- no `sanitzing`, no revamping to bring in accordance to (what you cal) `Western norms`. At least you show a llgical consistency that enables us to know where you`re going with your beliefs.



Don`t get me wrong, though, TAmed sahib... between you and Adnan, I`d have you as my friend/neighbour any day of the week. In any case, Adnan sahib has a divine sanction to not NOT befriend me or treat me as an equal, so I guess he doesn`t mind my saying this...

... Now if I can just find an axe to chop that spade...

rgds,

PM

PS: TAhemd sahib, uss bees dallar ke peecha itni snjeedgi sey kyooN puRrahay ho, yaar? khabi khabi toa meray baataiN muzaak me leyliya kareiN

Urstruly :

Presumably you have read Khaled Ahmed in this week`s The Friday Times ?

-Arun the Infidelator

JR:

I have very quickly skimmed through your posts which are indeed enlightening to some extent. I have a few questions before I highlight the points where I agree or disagree with you.


This is very ironic in a way.

You wrote that you have read the holy books of different faiths. I feel still you are looking for something to hold on to. Why?

Is it because you feel that there is a vacuum within you?

Is it because you do not have the sense of contentment within you?

Is it because when you see a person from one faith just relying on their book without any questions[in contentment]that bothers you?

Is the other person`s internal peace and harmony challenging to you in any way or shape?

Is there some hidden insecuity within you that obstructs your way to go by one faith?

Is there a hesitance to abide by a set of rules because you do not want to bind yourself?

Has the sense of freedom to experience the variety of different religions, overpowered the persuasion to follow one faith?


Being such a well read man[I hope JR is a guy than a gal; please correct me if it is otherwise :-)]how come you could not distill the best out of all and be able to apply that in your life and in the lives of the ones around you? This is an open-ended question. Despite my urge to add or assume more in this case, I will resist doing that.

After reading about all the faiths, why do you still find yourself questioning on the basics? Is it your own comprehension that makes you realize that you are just a human being and not ``A Master Magician`` and this very thought brings you back to reviewing this aspect of ``religion``? Probably, you question your own comprehension and interpretation more than you know or the ones around you know?

I do not mean to overawe you with these direct questions, but that`s how I am - very Direct and very Straightforward when something has been in the air for sometime and people are just beating about the bush than being up front about what is bothering them. In a way you have mentioned, but in a way you`ve diverted yourself from the original issue. There`s something that`s bothering you. And when you see the ones with ``blind faith`` you tend to question them. Well, do realize blinds cannot see you :-) The faith is very sweetly taking a nap in the heart; and logic dare not touch what the heart feels. Religion/Faith/Belief lies in one`s heart and not the head. Long time back, I had an interesting discussion with Sameer on this issue and I said something about the connection between Heart and Mind, but that`s an advanced phase of awareness. I have realized that over the past few years myself. And my tendency is to lean on the fact that beliefs and faiths are the matters of heart and that`s where the conscience and other things kick in when you try to adopt a route otherwise.

I would love to share a few personal experiences that shook my inside out and I was too naive[ I guess that`s not the right word here] or I should say I could not imagine myself going through it - I was too young and too innocent to experience that. It was a mixture of fear, belief, strength, balancing my inside with my composure and many other things. It has been 3.5 years, but I learnt many things about my ownself that I knew since my childhood but I took them for granted. In a way, I knew that I believed in something blindly, but I did not realize that my blindness in that ``something`` will be my savior or my protector in such a vivid way.

I love dramas; you must realize by now :-) I am kidding, but that incident and many like that were very insightful to me. The alignment of heart and mind is dangerously hard but the individual roles are very significant and stand alone.

PS: I have just written these thoughts in a go without looking back what I wrote, so just read them as a flow of thoughts than anything else.

Take Care.

PS: I do not doubt your intentions when you question; but I feel something has been cooking under the cool and calm composure of ``Sweet JR`` - I am just trying to understand the ingredients that were put during the cooking process and also since when has this ``gourmet dish`` been on the stove? - My gut feeling tells me that there are some ingredients that should not have been in the gourmet dish but they were added to see what results will come out ... I hope you can see the intensity of my curiosity :-) I do not cook, but I like to learn if there is something that may interest me. Open Minded in that respect :-)!

Later.

General Note:

Chalo Shukar Hae that PM was greeted with open arms by JR.

Three Cheers

! -- !! -- !!!

PM #263 Thanks for enlightening us with your learned views on Islam. If you are expecting a discussion, I will beg to be excused.

PS: I guess you never intended to pay JR the 20 bucks you said you would when you boldly made that wager.

PM (&JR):

[JR]: ``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?``

Why would there be no point in try to reconcile your reply with verses such as ``take ye not Jews aor Christains as friends..``, or `` ... where ye find them, slay them ...``? are these matters of interpretation?

Well it means precisely that. The Christians and Jews & ``others`` have certain rights they will be tolerated but ofcourse we will not befriend them etc etc. ok!



``Yeah, right. Now, is the penalty for apostacy the ....``

All this confusion u see arises when we try to force western norms over islamic law. Wht is decreed by Allah is final. We shd not try to make it compatible with ideas from other cultures.

adnan