They Changed My God

Zahra #163 ``I think I may have a viable solution. In fact, on second thoughts, I may have more than one options and I sure will get in touch with the ``right`` ones. No doubt, I could read something very clearly in thy posts.``

All ideas/solutions are welcome. Also, I am curious as to what you could read clearly in the post.

Reply Saxena Sahab # 176

``You seem to believe in an entirely new and compassionate religion which looks nothing like Islam. Even your countrymen will agree with that.``

You dear sir are sadly (gladly?) mistaken. Tahmed sahab believes in the true spirit of Islam

which is based on humanity love for all (Yes u too!) and being good human beings before anything else. The jehadis and mullas you all love so much are not what Islam is all about. They are what people will pick out and bych about but please keep in mind that they do not represent Islam- just a sad misguided bunch.

``Why do so many Muslims have a tough time accepting what is utterly wrong in their religion and discarding it instead of trying cover it up with it-is-a-misinterpretation arguments?…Christians admitted the Crusades were wrong and moved on. Hindus accepted that the caste system was wrong and made it illegal``

At the risk of sounding obnoxiously self-righteous may I say that we do not find anything ``utterly wrong`` in our religion. You talk of the Hindu caste system. That Islam deems ALL men equal should make a point in our favor here. I will not get into the crusades since I`ve had enough of that in history class to last me a lifetime and its grandmother.

There are parts of the Quran that are misinterpreted by well meaning and not so well meaning people but then something of such a high exalted level isn`t everybody`s piece of cake. A certain amount of maturity and sensitivity is required of one for such a spiritual task i .e understanding and preaching from the Quran and it is this that tahmed sahab has been displaying since the last 20 posts or so. Please keep in mind that Islam is a beautiful religion and not what you get to see and hear on CNN.

Reply Saxena Sahab # 176

``You seem to believe in an entirely new and compassionate religion which looks nothing like Islam. Even your countrymen will agree with that.``

You dear sir are sadly (gladly?) mistaken. Tahmed sahab believes in the true spirit of Islam

which is based on humanity love for all (Yes u too!) and being good human beings before anything else. The jehadis and mullas you all love so much are not what Islam is all about. They are what people will pick out and bych about but please keep in mind that they do not represent Islam- just a sad misguided bunch.

``Why do so many Muslims have a tough time accepting what is utterly wrong in their religion and discarding it instead of trying cover it up with it-is-a-misinterpretation arguments?…Christians admitted the Crusades were wrong and moved on. Hindus accepted that the caste system was wrong and made it illegal``

At the risk of sounding obnoxiously self-righteous may I say that we do not find anything ``utterly wrong`` in our religion. You talk of the Hindu caste system. That Islam deems ALL men equal should make a point in our favor here. I will not get into the crusades since I`ve had enough of that in history class to last me a lifetime and its grandmother.

There are parts of the Quran that are misinterpreted by well meaning and not so well meaning people but then something of such a high exalted level isn`t everybody`s piece of cake. A certain amount of maturity and sensitivity is required of one for such a spiritual task i .e understanding and more so preaching from the Quran and it is this that tahmed sahab has been displaying since the last 20 posts or so. Please keep in mind that Islam is a beautiful religion and not what you get to see and hear on CNN.

``Why do so many Muslims have a tough time accepting what is utterly wrong in their religion and discarding it instead of trying cover it up with it-is-a-misinterpretation arguments? ``

Re RSaxena

Because.. the moment you find one thing that is incompatible to the rationality and you choose to admit the wrong in its true colors... thats precisely the moment when you are out of the game.. Its now the believers duty to slit ur throat as its decreed in islam as the punishment of denying any basic edict of islam.

bugger off.

AnNy #180

``There are parts of the Quran that are misinterpreted by well meaning and not so well meaning people but then something of such a high exalted level isn`t everybody`s piece of cake``

Please sir explain to us mortals in plain language about the verses below. Do we need a Neem Mullah to explain these? What more could a Mullah explain in these verses. I am surprised that anyone needs a Mullah to explain these. The verses are clear as crystal.

5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.



[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good

women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.



Please don`t kid yourselves. There are verses in the Quoran that definitely need to go.

Tahmed:

[All ideas/solutions are welcome. Also, I am curious as to what you could read clearly in the post.]

As humans, we cannot know all that exists on the surface of earth. So we should let go of understanding each and every myth :-) In short, thanks for taking a note of my thought. It ain`t incumbent upon you to understand the ins-and-outs of ``the thought`` as well. So just let it go.

Thanks.

JR #182

Isn`t it a true guidance.

Few months back Indian on this forum were talking about (sadly) India-Israel-American Axis and supporting Gore for this (Ha-Ha).

And support of Israel by Americans is very obvious.

Hundreds of Palestinians are killed so far.

And as for the other Ayah. I have found it a very useful Ayah for keeping my family life intact and in good shape.

I think we should heed more to the message of Quran to understand better.

JR #177

First of all history of collection of Quran is very authentic. Because Koran has not only been preserved orally, but verbally throughout history.

And you can well imagine that a six year old boy has learned Quran by heart this year.

The concept of Jihad is two fold. The bigger Jihad is against ones self keeping in mind we can escape from Everyone, but not God. The smaller Jihad is what you are referring as Jihad.

This Jihad is for one purpose. Deen remains pure for Allah.

We can discuss it further if you like.

Eklavya #168

I think you have very wrong notions regarding Pakistan.

I am and most Pakistanis are very critical of a certain brand of Islam which is being forced upon us.

As TAhmed and I believe in secularism, but it does not take our Islamic identity and thinking. Same goes with Pervez Musharraf. Recently he is coming from Hajj. He is a great secularist as YLH will testify. (May be YLH will also do Hajj when going back to Pakistan).

It is a matter of interpretation of Islam that we differ.

And I agree with your predictions. But I don`t see how this is going to change the situation.

Pankaj #170 I dont think that anything I have said is simply one interpretation of Islam: These things are repeated over and over and over again in the Quran - that on the Judgement Day there will be God and the individual, and that the individuals lips will be sealed and only his hands and feet (i.e. deeds) will do the speaking; that God is Kind and Merciful; that He created man to learn about God`s Creation; that it is wrong to think of yourselves as being a chosen people; I could go on, and no doubt I have repeated these things in earlier posts as well.

The reason we have so many ``interpretations`` is that (a) the role of the Quran has been usurped by books written by individuals, and as a result ``jitnay mooN utni baataiN``; (b) historical accidents have been raised to the stature of religion: the shia-sunni schism is not over the interpretation of the Quran but over a historical political issue; (c) finally, cultural traditions (like political events in (a)) have been also incorrectly treated as being dictated by God. The gap is vast, and the confusion is widespread.

To put it another way, you may recall some years ago they finally cleaned up the dirt and grime of the centuries that had come over the painting of the Creation in the Sistine Chapel. What came out was a painting with strikingly bright and joyful colors, totally different from what even the experts had ever imagined. The same I think is true of Islam. It is time to wash away the dirt of the centuries that has accumulated, and go back to the message that has been delivered to us muslims. We will then be at peace with ourselves and with other people of the world, and get started with what we should have been doing all these years - emphasizing learning, advancing the frontiers of science and building civilized societies.

Rsaxena #176 ``Christians admitted the Crusades were wrong and moved on. Hindus accepted that the caste system was wrong and made it illegal (it`s not gone yet, but at least it`s a start).``

I dont think the Christians ever did such a thing. And the caste system is dying due to urbanization. That will happen in Islam too. I dont think as a muslim I am obliged to say the Mahmud of Ghaznvi was right in attacking Somnath (in fact, this was a travesty not just against Hinduism but against Islam as well). Trouble is, people too often seem to look into the past rather than the future, and dont like to think for themselves and find it easy to identify with the group they belong to. This is a human weakness, not just a muslim one.

``You seem to believe in an entirely new and compassionate religion which looks nothing like Islam. Even your countrymen will agree with that.``

You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion. If it seems new, then I hope you will also read my post to Pankaj on the subject on why this seems new. I have discussed the specifics with people of the contrary viewpoint (yes, even Asif N., earlier on this thread) and you will find that even they cannot deny this fact.

PS We`ll make a muslim out of you yet.

PPS Just kidding.

JR #182

`` Please sir explain to us mortals in plain language about the verses below...``

Let me try (although the question is to another poster.

``5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.``

Elsewhere in the Quran it refers to Christians and Jews in a totally different light: There is an entire Surah (Surah Al-Rum) where the Quran speaks of the Christian Roman Empire with not just tolerance but affection - the Quran talks of the Romans having recently been defeated by the (then heathen) Persians ``in a land nearby`` and says the believers (the Christian Romans) will ultimately emerge triumphant. Elsewhere it talks about Christians as being men of learning. Elsewhere it says how the Quran adds nothing to what has not already been delivered by Moses. Elsewhere the Quran says that (unless you are threatened with expulsion from your homes, when you have a right to defend yourself) muslims should seek to live peacefully and indeed with affection with other people of the world. Elsewhere the Quran says that the message has been delivered to all people in a language they can understand through one of their own.

So: you could have asked for an explanation for this one verse that you have dragged out of a sea of different views. And the explanation is simple enough: there are parts of the Quran that are eternal and parts that are specific to that time - e.g. there is a Surah on how to behave before the Holy Prophet (i.e. speak in a voice that is no louder than his): clearly those verses were meant for that time only, and lose significance after the Prophet passed away.

``[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good

women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.``

Read elsewhere in the Quran and you will find that there are no limits placed on how high a woman can rise in society: of the two earthly kingdoms mentioned in the Quran, the evil one (of the Pharaohs) is headed by a man while the one the Quran speaks approvingly of and with affection is headed by a woman (the Queen of Sheba). In relations between the sexes, the Quran first calls upon men to keep their eyes to themselves, and only then calls upon women (in carefully measured same words) to do the same (the fact that only the latter part is stressed among many muslims with women covered head to toe in the burqa and in the extreme case of Afghanistan barred from any gainful employment, let alone as head of state like Queen Sheba is not the fault of Islam). And everywhere the Quran talks about refraining from violence and that God loves those who restrain themselves.

``Please don`t kid yourselves. There are verses in the Quoran that definitely need to go. ``

Hope you realize now that we are not kidding ourselves. Carefully read, and with the basic lessons taken to heart, the Quran is a powerful force for decency and good. The exceptions like the ones you mention only serve to prove the rule, as I hope I have been able to explain. Hope this long post serves the purpose of the response I had promised to provide over the weekend.

anNy #180 Good to see your post, and hope RSaxena will see that far from being a voice in the wilderness what I am saying on this thread is no more than what the vast majority of Pakistanis feel in their hearts.

temporal #175 Thank you sir for the excellent tips. Actually the idea wasnt on how to augment the ageing process but on how to put an end to it one day. But thanks anyway, since you just increased my knowledge on this and I also learnt how those cork sniffers are real fakes (I always suspected as much, actually, but your post shed some new light on this mysterious ritual).

Zahra: Fair enough. Let the thought be as silent as the sound of a tree falling with no one listening. (I think I better stop writing all these posts before I start to wax too lyrical - and I am not sure that temporal will permit this twisted implementation of the ``wax lyrical`` phrase).

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there is one thing that bothers me about those who are raising voice against fantacism and that is they use the religious arguments against these fundamentalist and fanatic outbursts.

Religious believes and practices are irrational, why do you need any argument to justify that? Arguments are used when there is a logic/reasoning behind every act, like in a scientific world.

This fundamentalism must be countered with the scientific explanation of the existence of every thing/phenomenon.

The other day i heard on TV that GOD likes blue color that is why most of the people like that color! Now how are you going to counter it? By saying that ` no a few years ago God liked green color` or by giving psychological explanation of the soothing effect that colors like blue have?