They Changed My God

tahmed321 #188
You say to Rsaxena

`` You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion. If it seems new, then I hope you will also read my post to Pankaj on the subject on why this seems new. I have discussed the specifics with people of the contrary viewpoint (yes, even Asif N., earlier on this thread) and you will find that even they cannot deny this fact.
PS We`ll make a muslim out of you yet.
PPS Just kidding. ...``

tahmed321, I see two tragedies in these sentences which are spoken lightheartedly.

The first tragedy is that for all your countrymen defending Islam as being compassionate and perhaps many of them themselves practising Islam compassionately, for ALL that, a statement like you made ``We`ll make a muslim out of you`` cannot be reciprocated even lighheartedly by Rsaxena in Pakistan without his being killed for it by your same scriptures which are upheld by the state. Am I right?

Thats tragedy number one: your compassionate religion prescribes death for those who leave it, or those who even speak of getting someone to leave it.

The second tragedy is you and other truly compassionate Muslims seem to live in so much detachment from the hard and fast provisions existing in your own society that you are unable to get your country/society and its rules to reflect your compassion.

Sadhana

sadna #194 You are obviously choose to define Islam as what some nut-cases say, not what is in the books. You dont become a muslim and stay a muslim out of fear, but out of love and conviction. How can you presume to pass judgements on Islam when you are obviously (from the things you have put down in this one post alone) totally ignorant of Islam? The Holy Prophet is clearly instructed in the Quran to ``lower his wings`` (meaning be gentle) towards the believers in his message, but that if they chose not to believe than he is no longer responsible for them. Elsewhere the same message is repeated. Nowhere does it call for death for leaving Islam - it says the opposite. If you make a distinction between Islam and Pakistani politics, that is fine. But that distinction means nothing to you.

As for my joking invitation to RSaxena to become a muslim - that was a joke (you may have to study the encyclopedia to understand what is meant by a joke). I have said earlier on this thread that you can be a non-muslim and go to heaven and you can be a muslim and go to hell, so I am sure RSaxena would understand that this is a joke and not a clever ploy to convert him. The rest of your post is rooted in the usual India-Pakistan Fight-of-the-Morons about ``you people bad, very, very bad; us people good, real, real good``. I leave it for you to judge the value of such fights.

Hasnains #193 ``The other day i heard on TV that GOD likes blue color that is why most of the people like that color!`` I too have heard such pathetic stuff sometimes in Sunday Schools. But dont fault Islam for such rubbish, and I agree that we dont need to waste time trying to convince these idiots. And you dont need to discuss Islam with anyone, since that is something between you and God and no other man`s business (much as many men would like it to make their business). But do take the time to study the Quran (with understanding, as you would any other book) and I promise you wont be sorry.

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tahmed123 : I respect your right to interpret religious texts for yourself.

That being said, it is true that the punishment in the Sharia for apostacy is death. The rationale given by modern apologists is :

``Why does Islam not allow apostacy? Apostacy or irtidãd in Islam is equal to treason.``

``It must be emphasized that irtidãd which we are discussing here involves open rejection, without any force and with the realization of what one`s statements or actions imply. The punishment prescribed by the shari`a for apostacy is death.``

http://www.al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

-Arun the Infidelator

MacGupta #198 ``That being said, it is true that the punishment in the Sharia for apostacy is death.``

My response is the same as to Sadna. If you chose to accept the nut-case version of Islam, not what is in the Quran, then that is your choice. However, in that case you and I are talking about two different things, so there is no point in arguing. Someday, I hope you will allow us muslims a bit more courtesy when defining our religion for us.

tahmed321 #195

I remember a similar berating from you when I first mentioned the Pakistani ruling on interest-free banking, at some later time 2 articles on the subject appeared on chowk. Bottom line: scolding sadna didnot make interest-free banking go away.

I have been on chowk many months, in this period I have been asked 4-5 times to convert, seriously or jokingly and one of those asking me was your esteemed self, you maynot remember. Whenever I refused, I did so politely in the spirit of chowk informality. I donot feel any insecurity related to this, but I think I am justified in raising this point at this time, which I chose not to do earlier.

As you say, you are free to interpret your religion as you wish, why not. I wish you and those like you all the best in your endeavors for a more just order. Unlike what you allege, nowhere do I assert that I know something about your religion nor was I spelling out anything.

But if its a requirement that your religion should guide the making of laws in your country, then the issue becomes public domain and open to question. Mixing such questions up and casting them as a challenge to your personal faith, well, thats the easy copout the even those you term `nutcases` use to great effect.

Its obvious from even a cursory study that punishment prescribed for apostasy or blasphemy is not a clear cut issue, there is plenty of debate about it, admit it or not. The key issue seems to be the acceptance of certain Hadiths which prescribe death for apostasy.
There are 2 issues here:
Are the Hadiths prescribing death accepted by the Islamic scholars who give expert opinion in writing Sharia laws
Are the Hadiths and Islamic scholars` views and recommendations religiously/legally binding on lay Muslims

Here is a quote:
http://www.geocities.com/

Sadna:

``I have been on chowk many months, in this period I have been asked 4-5 times to convert, seriously or jokingly and one of those asking me was your esteemed self, you maynot remember. Whenever I refused, I did so politely in the spirit of chowk informality. I donot feel any insecurity related to this, but I think I am justified in raising this point at this time, which I chose not to do earlier.``

That`s pretty interesting.

You CANNOT convert to any religion or belief system if you are asked to do so and you should NOT go for that!

You should ONLY go that far if you have any internal connection that asks you to take such an action!

I have not read anyone asking you to do that, therefore excuse my ignorance. Well, then I haven`t read many fiascos and their proceedings around me. Lack of Interest. Personally, I feel if someone had asked you to do that, it must be due to your apparent interest in exploring the intricacies of Islam. Well, there is nothing wrong about being inquisitive - good for you! Keep your quest for knowledge and living beings alive :-)

Somehow, I could not resist bringing Vanessa William`s beautiful lyrical ballad that I`ve always loved and cherished. Enjoy the ``Color of the Wind``!

JR:

``What is wrong in asking for an explanation? And what is wrong in disagreeing with an explanation?``

There is nothing wrong in either asking questions or disareement.

What is wrong is asking questions in the manner in which u did, pl. read my last post on this. Any questions u ask shd be in a spirit to clarify wht u think is wrong and even if u want to critisize this shd be done in a serious dignified way.

``I do not have to quote from the Quoran, but to any person with the slightest intellect it is evident that there are verses that are demeaning to women and non believers of the faith.``

No sir, without pointing out precisely which verses u mean this line of reasoning as u put ``will not hold ion any court of law`` rt?

`` A little baby girl born in another faith - is she a kufr. Is she a lesser human and are

the doors of heaven not open to her because she ..``

The answer is NO. Isalm says all children r innocent, any child who dies before maturity shall in our belief go to heaven.

``I have researched into history of the Quoran and it is believed that the poetic version appeared later than the original. A lot of tribal and political verses were..``

Again this is the first time i have come acroos someone claiiming that verses were added to the Quran. Pl. give me some references.

``Do you as educated people really support Jihad the way it is carried out today?

........this what the Quoran teaches? I am sorry sirs, this version ofIslam is really not the one originally intended. ``

Dont the Chechens have a rt to defend themselves to demand freedom, same for the Palestinians Kashmiris Bosnians and other Jehadi outfits.

UNO has miserably failed to anything but safeguard the interests of the Western countries. So my question is wht shd these ppls. do. suffer slavery or simply commit mass suicide??

WHo r u to tell me wht islam originally intended and this wothout any reference??



``If you agree with me or not, there is a need for the message to be amended.``

In a word NO. What is however needed is to reinterpret certain ideas not in the Quran (THE QURAN IS ALLAHS WORD AND CANNOT BE CHANGED) but in Islamic jurisprudence and many islamists are already working on this.

Please do answer my querries as well.

Adnan

TAhmed #

For God sake. Don`t invite RSaxena to become Muslim.

Leave some insanes for Hindus also.

RE: TAhmed

``I dont think the Christians ever did such a thing. And the caste system is dying due to urbanization.``

Maybe the Pope didn`t, but I have come across many other Christians who did.

As for the caste system, it is banned and made illegal by the Government of India. That is a big first step where the most powerful institution in the land declares that something is wrong. Mind you old habits die hard and so it is not completely dead yet but we are getting there. Of course urbanization is helping too.

``Trouble is, people too often seem to look into the past rather than the future, and dont like to think for themselves and find it easy to identify with the group they belong to. This is a human weakness, not just a muslim one.``

I think you`re an optimist (not necessarily a bad thing). You wishfully substitute your personal compassionate and forward-thinking views to your entire religion...too many Muslims still want to live by the 1400-year-old book and refuse to acknowledge that some of it is downright wrong, if not just inapplicable to this day and age.

As for identifying with a group, the only group I belong to is the Indian one....as an almost atheist, I have no religious affiliations although I do find select elements of Buddhism and Hinduism interesting.

``You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion.``

I hope you are successful in recruiting more Muslims to live by your interpretation of Islam.

Re: sadhna

I think TAhmed was joking with his comment about converting to Islam. So let`s chill, shall we?

Of course if it was any of the other Chowk Muslims who had suggested such a thing, I would`ve smacked them over the head (yes, over the Internet). Further, as I have stated before, I`d go to hell and join Curt Cobain before I convert to Islam.

Eklavya #60 krashid has not posted in months. I pray all is well with him. Maybe it is time to resurrect Shirin`s suggestion (at one time on chowk) for each of the chowk regulars to have ``chowk buddy`` who could advise the rest of us of any events in real life that can be shared on chowk.

RSaxena #206
Even a dunce could tell he was joking. If you don`t get MY point, is it my fault?

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