They Changed My God

Anwar Iqbal, you have written so simply and eloquently. I have copied your poem and distributed it to many students here in New York

rsaxena

..... you are formally invited to join the reform mosque of islam which is based on one simple, yet profound, firman of hazrat george bin carlin (ra). He says, and i quote:

`` I`m completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death``

........ and really, it is this simple, yet profound, principle that well meaning folks like tahmed are unwilling to accept because they have bought into the cockamamie cocktail of madhab, deen and ummah and godknowswhat .......

sadna #200 I am sorry that you felt berated by my post, since that was not my intent. My intent was to try and make you understand that it is wrong to start attributing all sorts of evil to other people`s religions (and believe me, Islam is not the only religion in whose name murders and other crimes have been committed in South Asia). You may disagree on this point, but please do not try to discuss your views on how evil Islam is with me: as you know there is noshortage of people on chowk who would be only too glad to have such a ``race to the bottom`` with you on religion. I must have written over a couple of hundred posts on chowk over the past year or two - I have not once attributed anything evil or negative to Hinduism or India or to any other religion of country or people. I trust you will permit me the same courtesy with respect to my religion and my country and my people.

Please dont feel berated or scolded by what I have written as you indicated you felt with my previous post. As I said, I bear you no grudge and I present this as a request with full respect for you as an individual.

tahmed321 #212
``but please do not try to discuss your views on how evil Islam is with me``

Nowhere did I say Islam is evil, who gives you the right to ascribe to me what I donot say?

And it is very convenient for you to brush off every point I raise solely based on the fact of my personal religion and yours. Thanks for this insightful exchange, I do understand a few things better now.

Sadhana

Rsaxena #205 ``RE: TAhmed

I think I pretty much agree on everything you say but with some exceptions.

On the crusades, I agree that by and large Christians and Muslims are through fighting them. The Balkans represented a last, bloody flicker.

I did not know that the caste system is illegal in India. I think congratulations are in order. Hopefully, the Pakistan government will one day develop some guts and get rid of the evil blasphemy laws and the shariah courts both of which are a travesty of Islam.

The driving force behind these things has never been religion (I understand from a Hindu friend that the caste system has no basis in Hindu scripts, and the same is true for some wicked things done in Pakistan in the name of religion that are a complete violation of the teachings of the Quran) but the scramble for power and status in poverty stricken economies. As education spreads, as professional classes grow stronger in both India and Pakistan, evil things that have been done in the name of religion are bound to disappear. It is for this reason I believe it is not unrealistic to be hopeful that things will improve over time: the root of the problem are the miserable economic conditions and ignorance.

As for the Quran, trouble is not that it is 1400 years old, trouble is that it has been ``embellished`` during these 1400 years by men. The things stressed in the Quran - kindness, mercy, individualism, learning, good deeds, good intentions, respect for other people`s beliefs - these are the important things and are enternal. You will no doubt find a similar message in all religions (Last year I read a very interesting book comparing the essence of major religions, and it was surprising how similar they all are in essence, and how easy it is for someone with any character to relate to these teachings). The reason I stress religion so much is that I feel that in South Asia, due to excesses in the name of religion, people have been put off and therefore deny themselves a powerful source for strengthening character and facing the ups and downs of life.

You say ``the only group I belong to is the Indian one....as an almost atheist, I have no religious affiliations although I do find select elements of Buddhism and Hinduism interesting.``

The thing that unites all people, regardless of nationality or other things is ultimately a common sense of values. They transcend all sorts of national, linguistic, ethnic and other differences. Religion is there to help us achieve common values. I would be glad to take you up on the atheist issue, but this post has gotten too long so we shall fight that one some other time :-). But seriously, that is your personal business and I have no problem with whatever views you have on God.

``I hope you are successful in recruiting more Muslims to live by your interpretation of Islam.``

Thanks, although I hope ``my interpretation`` is not just one interpretation but something that is written loud and clear in the Quran. Actually, it is too much trouble to recruit people, so I just put up my opinions on chowk. So far I have been gratified by the positive response from almost everyone (Indians and Pakistanis) on this issue.

krashid #204 I think you and RSaxena have more in common, and enjoy your playing spy vs. spy (this is with respect to the two cartoon characters that are constantly trying to pull a fast one on the other, in case someone in chowk starts thinking that I mean RAW vs. ISI) with one another more than either of you is willing to admit.

TAhmed #

God forbid.

Aap Ke Muun Mein Khaak.

It is better to be dead than be RSaxena. For whom secularism means drinking and adultery. For whom human rights means killing of Kashmiris. For whom best adventure is testing religious sensibilities of others.

Tauba Tauba.

Kis Na Hanjar Se Mujhe Tashbih De Rahein Hain.

sadna #213 ``Nowhere did I say Islam is evil, who gives you the right to ascribe to me what I donot say? ``

sadna #194 ``your compassionate religion prescribes death for those who leave it, or those who even speak of getting someone to leave it.``

I rest my case. In #194 you are ascribing evil to Islam (unless killing someone for his views is not considered evil by you), and in #213 you are denying you ever said this.

I may add that not only are you ascribing evil to my religion (something that you deny in #213), you do so using cynical terms (``your compassionate religion``). Furthermore, you are just plain wrong: In my earlier post, I had assumed it was out of ignorance of Islam, but your constant refusal to correct yourself leads me to think you are quite happy to cling to such misconceptions. As a chowk poster, I have every right to point such things out to you.

tahmed321 #216

Take a look at some other things I said in the posts you mention which you conveniently ignore(and I`m guessing you will continue to do so):

#194
`` tahmed321, I see two tragedies in these sentences which are spoken lightheartedly.

The first tragedy is that for all your countrymen defending Islam as being compassionate and PERHAPS MANY OF THEM THEMSELVES PRACTISING ISLAM COMPASSIONATELY , for ALL that, a statement like you made ``We`ll make a muslim out of you`` cannot be reciprocated even lighheartedly by Rsaxena in Pakistan without his being killed for it by your same scriptures which are upheld by the state. Am I right?

The second tragedy is ... YOU ARE UNABLE TO GET YOUR COUNTRY/SOCIETY AND ITS RULES TO RELFLECT YOUR COMPASSION``

This was in response to your statement ``You will find my countrymen (and young anNy too) stoutly defending Islam as being a compassionate religion``


You say ``In #194 you are ascribing evil to Islam (unless killing someone for his views is not considered evil by you)``


tahmed321, it is not sadna, chowk poster who is ascribing evil to your religion, if killing someone for his views is considered evil by YOU. My post #200
`` Here is a quote:
http://www.geocities.com/

Re: hamidm

{{..... you are formally invited to join the reform mosque of islam which is based on one simple, yet profound, firman of hazrat george bin carlin (ra). He says, and i quote:

`` I`m completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death``}}

I have already accepted hedonism as my religion. I figure when old age catches up to me, I`ll regret not chasing around a few Scandanavian blondies and eating a few more samosas...I won`t regret not listening to another sermon by some religious quack who is headed to the same after-death place as I am.

Adnan,

Thanks for responding. I have quoted some verses that are in my opinion demeaning in a later post and here too.

TAhmed,

I read the whole of your long post.

The gist of your post- Yes the demeaning verses exist but there are other verses that are totally contrary to those verses - example the one about the Christians and Jews.

You also mention that some verses are time specific.

1. Contradicting verses

2. Time specific - some

Okay, then why not go through an exercise to group the time specific verses into a different section so that modern followers dont get confused and follow the wrong verses? A small step in the direction of Islam - dont remove the verses - just reorg.

Also, is not the Quoran eternal, then why is it so contradictory in some verses and also `Time specific` in others?

If for a minute, you throw down your religious hats and put on scientific ones, can you not see that the verses dont seem to be compiled all in one go and are indeed kind of a collection that is not truly organized. It has history, culture, poetry, rules and laws, etc. It reads more like the torah than the bible. The bible, is more organized because, there have been numerous edits and reorgs. The Quoran defintely did not have that many, but as a scientific person who has read the Bible, Quoran and Torah (some), the Quoran is simply overrated. It is a religious book with a very good message. It takes courage to admit that there are things in there that are not wholely noble by any standards. I can point out numerous things in the bible that are big boo boos and many from the Torah. The Hindu religious books are indeed epic poems that gradually elevated to religious books.

Mr. Ahmed your religious anchorings are too strong for you to see things differently. You will notice that most Islamists reason well with everything, but seem to suspend that faculty when asked about the Quoran.

Yes sir, you will come back with more well meaning things to say, but will stop short of admitting that there are some boo boos in the Quoran. You will glaze over with outfield explanations, but stop right where you predictably will.

Why is it so hard to think reform in islam. I dont think the greatness or message will be diminished by reforming. This way you will not have loonies running around quoting exactly the verses that are not so noble.

``But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.``

``...and slay them..`` Yes, my looney Mujahid will take his gun and put 20 slugs in another human because he is carrying out a Quoranic command.

Thank God, in today`s world we have only one major religion that preaches violence to the non believers, just imagine if we had a few of these religions with verses like ``...and slay them..``, man, we`d all be trigger happy loonies putting each other out to get that big prize that is in store for us when we reach ``Heaven``.

Let us think. God has given us this beautiful faculty, lets use it!

krashid #215 I must admit I have not followed all your interactions with RSaxena. The few that I read did seem to me to be a bit in good humor. Also, I thought RSaxena`s previous post to me was very reasonable, so clearly there is more to RSaxena than you may be giving credit for. Please dont put khak in my mouth (my parents had a tough time getting me rid of that habit when I was a child).

sadna #217 I dont think we are going to get anywhere on this discussion. Have a good day.

tahmed321 #219
Thanks, but no thanks.

Tahmed (219):

I am glad that you realized that. Great to find wise men on board! I just wished that you had realized it a little earlier.

Also, thanks for your considerate action on my last note.

Regards.

PS: As far as my suggestions are concerned, I would love to share them with you once they are clear in my mind[This was regarding the ``burning issue``].

Re: TAhmed

``I did not know that the caste system is illegal in India. I think congratulations are in order.``

Congratulations may be premature because there are still a few boneheads who continue to propogate the problem. A couple of executions might help strike fear and set examples for the idiots to stop it completely.

``As education spreads, as professional classes grow stronger in both India and Pakistan, evil things that have been done in the name of religion are bound to disappear.``

I don`t know about that. Some of the smartest people I know (the guys who topped IIT) are tragically caught up in religion.

``As for the Quran, trouble is not that it is 1400 years old, trouble is that it has been ``embellished`` during these 1400 years by men.``

A book shouldn`t lend itself to easy misinterpretation by so many fools.

``Last year I read a very interesting book comparing the essence of major religions, and it was surprising how similar they all are in essence, and how easy it is for someone with any character to relate to these teachings.``

That`s all the more reason to do away with religion altogether. There are some universal values such as do unto others and never infringe on the rights of others to life, property, and personal freedom which everyone can accept and understand without religious hogwash. Religion obstructs this too often.

``The reason I stress religion so much is that I feel that in South Asia, due to excesses in the name of religion, people have been put off and therefore deny themselves a powerful source for strengthening character and facing the ups and downs of life.``

That`s precisely why you should become a card-carrying member of the South Asian Atheists Society.

``I would be glad to take you up on the atheist issue, but this post has gotten too long so we shall fight that one some other time :-).``

Sure but you`ll never win that one. I learned a little too much physics and have grown a little too weary of ignorant and violent religious nuts to ever fully accept religion.

``Thanks, although I hope ``my interpretation`` is not just one interpretation but something that is written loud and clear in the Quran.``

Well, I am afraid it appears to be an anomaly. Just look around on Chowk and you`ll see that you are in a minority amongst the Muslims...even supposedly educated and ``progressive`` ones.

JR #221 I have no basic problem with what you are saying, and indeed I thought your ending sentence (on using that wonderful instrument between one`s two ears) was something I always say. (The Quran too asks people to maintain an clear mind and use their eyes and other God-given faculties, and I say this in passing not in order to annoy you).

Your comments on the benefits of clearer organization in the Quran are valid, and I wish that had been done. However, remember often in what seems to be a disorderly thing there is something very profound at work: only a couple of weeks ago they came up with a preliminary progress report on the human DNA which basically said that far from being an neat, well-organized set of molecules the DNA was in fact quite a zoo (containing bits of bacterial DNA that entered our common ancestor`s body millions of years ago, bits of DNA that seem to be mere free-loaders with nothing to contribute, and so forth). And yet, this messy DNA produces people capable of finding their way to other planets, not to mention physical perfections like your Ms. Asharwayia Rai. :-)

As for killing on religious pretexts, I think it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Unless you tell me that one of the most enlightened men of the 20th century, Gandhi, actually died of heart failure, or that the Christian missionary and his two young boys were burnt to death by muslims. I dont take this to mean this as proof that Hinduism is bad - indeed, I think it is a wonderful religion like other religions - but as proof that some men will do evil things in the name of religion.

Finally, you think I am too focussed on religion. Actually, I think we could use some religion (real religion, not the hate-filled criminal kind or the empty headed recitation variety) in the sub-continent. Religion is good for building character and providing some depth in our lives: read the transcripts from tehelka.com and the pathetic manner in which smart, pukka sahibs - generals no less - call out for whisky and petty bribes. (Our Paki brass is no different). Some training in ethics that lie at the core of all religions would have perhaps provided them some dignity and character to these people.