They Changed My God

TAhmed 321 #

Few things on interpretation of Quran.

I think the preface to Tafhim-ul-Quran by Maulana Mowdudi is very good, regarding Quran`s presentation the way it is.

Although I agree that Quran should be read individually to understand its meaning by common man. To get the basis.

But there is a catch. Without any reference, because of the richness of Arabic language, its meanings can be taken to extremes or selectively.

For example the Shia give validity to Imamat by Ayah ``Atiullah Wa AtiurRasul Wa OoliulAmr Minkum``. But a reading of Hadith and other historical sources depicts that these Ayah came when Adi bin Hatim was made commander of an expedition and people objected to it because he was young.

Although many of the Ayah of Quran are time specific, but have application for all times as such or in principle. And in that matter they are not time specific.

So although I disagree with sacredness of Hadith books, but I think they are an important source in understanding Quran.

I think these discussion will not end. But if one can grasp the concept of Tawheed then he has got the basic message of Islam.

JR#

Do you want to present flowers during a fight.

I will agree with you once your brave soldiers stop firing and SLAYing the Kashmiris.

The difference is We Slay after praying. You slay after drinking.

We Slay because we know it is in Koran. You slay because you preach peace, Ahimsa, secularism and democracy.

tahmed312 214

`` ... enjoy your playing spy vs. spy (this is with respect to the two cartoon characters that are constantly trying to pull a fast one on the other, in case someone in chowk starts thinking that I mean RAW vs. ISI)``

no no - Hekyll and Jekyll is more like it !!

aicha

krashid #226 ``But if one can grasp the concept of Tawheed then he has got the basic message of Islam.``

This is truly the essence of Islam. Some years back, I volunteered as Sunday School Islamic teacher where my children went. We spent a full month discussing this concept alone. As a concept and how it applies to real life. That is, if there is only one God that we worship, it also means we do not worship (take your pick): (a) other men, as in status conscious Pakistan where bootlicking those above you is an art form with politicians, bureaucrats, landlords, mullahs, and something that rivals the ``petra`` concept of ancient Rome; or in hero-worshipping Arab societies, as in Iraq where Saddams ugly posters show him with more changes of clothes than Barbie doll (Saddam in grand military uniform, Saddam in Armani suit; Saddam with dashing western hat and dark glasses; Saddam in traditional Arab dress on a white charger no less); (b) money, on which enough has been said in chowk for me to add anything; (c) fame, as in ``Bhutto the grand third world leader``.

We have, of course, some fine examples in Pakistan of those who practice Tawheed - those who stand up for the many injustices in our society, those who quietly did their duty in 1965, those who devote themselves to opening primary schools across the country. Those are the true heroes of our society and show us what the true meaning of Tawheed and therefore of Islam.

Thing is: you dont need a PhD to be a good muslim. I dont care much for Maulana Maudoodi myself (although you are entitled to your views) since I think that by introducing politics in Islam he did untold damage to the cause of Islam and of Pakistan. No amount of scholarship can compensate for the grave travesty that has been done to our religion and to our society as a result of his ideas and Zia`s actions.

I take your point about the intricacies of the Arab language, but the message is so simple and repeated in so many different ways, that I dont think it is necessary to read what people over 1400 years interpreted it to be. Most of them obviously did not get it right anyway (the sufis for example twisted the concept of Islam by seeking to join God in this life when Islam asks us to focus on living a good life and that they would meet God in due course after death anyway)and over-complicated things.

Put another way, if we spend all our time reading the manual and reading manuals written interpreting the manual, when are we going to have time to actually do what the manual says we should do? Like learning about God`s creation (science), like making ourselves capable of earning an honest living (professional training), like working towards more humane and just societies (public service, in the finest sense of the word), like promoting goodwill towards all.

RSaxena #225 Thanks for your post. I have used up all my chowk-posting energy writing to krashid, but hope you will give it a look-over too when you get the chance. One thing for now on your post: thanks for the invite to join the Atheists Society. I might consider it after I am through considering joining the Flat Earth Society. :-)

Zahra #223 Better late than never. I have been getting into too many quarrels recently (hamidm, now Sadna). Maybe it is time to give my chowk post-writing a bit of rest...

tahmed #224:

I salute you for attempting to see another point of view.

I do not agree with your examples for religious killings. There is a big difference between religiously sanctioned killings and religiously motivated ones. Though both are bad. Just imagine if a Hindu religious book said ``Kill Mulsims and there is a prize waiting for you in heaven``.

Do you think the Hindu zealots will stop with Missionaries and Gandhi? Even without such a decree the zealot Hindus have been rampaging thru minority peoples, just imagine if there was also religious sanction for it.

I was thinking about your DNA example. But, that is one outfield way of looking at things. The more logical one is that there are boo boos in the Quoran that need to go or be re-organized for modern followers.

Who is going to do it? Where is the Mohamed Luther we are all waiting for.

Then again, we are the ones we have been waiting for!

Krashid #226:

Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.

Re: TAhmed

``One thing for now on your post: thanks for the invite to join the Atheists Society. I might consider it after I am through considering joining the Flat Earth Society. :-)``

If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!

RSaxena: #233

``If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!``

LOL!!!!

I gotta tell ya, when you`re funny, you`re funny!

(ummmm...which is not all that often, despite ur claims)

RSaxena: #233

``If it were up to the Church and religion, we truly would have a Flat Earth Society right now!!!``

LOL!!!!

I gotta tell ya, when you`re funny, you`re funny!

(ummmm...which is not all that often, despite ur claims)

Re: JR

You wrote to krashid:

``Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.``

I think his only alternative means of communication is chemical secretions. I don`t think you will understand those either.

Re: JR

You wrote to krashid:

``Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.``

I think his only alternative means of communication is chemical secretions. I don`t think you will understand those either.

Sweet JR:

I ran into your following post a few days back and checked my conscience to see if it was still alive after that episode: I heard a voice saying, ``I am here...I am here...`` then I thought I better add my two dollars worth as well.

[To a person with a conscience is this right?
A little baby girl born in another faith - is she a kufr. Is she a lesser human and are the doors of heaven not open to her because she is not a Muslim? ]

I think we have given far more importance to Jehad because of the freedom movements going on in Kashmir and Afghanistan. The five main pillars of Islam are: Tauheed, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, and Haj. The current day and age Muslims have left the main elements behind and have taken up Jehad as a substitute for everything[apparently] - which is quite rubbish. There are clear cut instructions on when Jehad should be taken and when it should not be. There were quite a few stories associated with the Holy Prophet(PBUH). Someone had an elderly mother and he wanted to go for Jehad and the Holy Prophet asked him to stay back and take care of his elderly mother as that was equivalent to going for the Jehad. Rights of fellow human beings.

A prostitute was kind to a hungry stray cat and was sent to heaven, whereas a very pious woman was not - for poorly treating a fellow human being[or animal] I do not exactly remember.

There are many stories that will give thee a picture of true Islam. Remember Haqooqul-Ibaad[Rights of Human Beings] was always given preference over Haqooq-Allah [Rights of God].

[I want the true Islam that says everyone is welcome, there is no need to be a particualar way, dress or speak or act a particular way - the only message is be true to God and yourself.]

Well, I am not sure why you are getting a message otherwise. I completely agree with the gist of your thought, but there are certain elements which are very definitive. There are certain pillars that will stand there whether you want to abide by them or not.

I will give another example: I am a die-hard believer on Duaa`. But I have also read and have been told that Duas do not get accepted if you are not regular in your prayers. Do I stop offering my Duaas? No. I make an effort to offer my prayers regularly to get the best out of my Duas`. Am I 100% successful? No. Should I stop praying to God because I missed one prayer. No!
Just like you make an effort in everything in life, this effort is worth the reward as well. Why not?

Also, on my previous comment, Haqooqul-Ibaad was not applicable to Muslims only. Nowhere have I ever read that Non-Muslims are animals, so they should be regarded that way. Please do not misread and misconstrue things and create confusions for yourself. Also, Quran is spelled as ``Q.U.R.A.N`` without any ``Os.``


JR: Life is too short. Do not add complexities in your life by wasting time on KKK mentalities and etc. If you have a good heart and you feel that your connection with Allah Ta`ala is alive then it`s between you and God; why bring the whole world in the picture to applaud you and your beliefs. You do not need that, provided you are secured. You do not seem secured. You want a pat on your back for something that is bothering you. Or something you want to get rid of - And I am not sure what? I have just skimmed through your post and had this feeling and I am in my own train of thoughts so I do not have any clue on what I have written and where I am. I will stop.

Later,

Take Care.

Zahra

A correction to your post:

The following items that you have attributed as pillars are actually ``components`` i.e. Arkan if I have translated it right:

Tauheed, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, and Haj.

The seven pillars i.e. basic beleives on which the concept of Islam is built upon:

1. Oneness of God
2. Mohammad being his messenger and last prophet.
3. Belief in Qyamat-that is the end of the world
4. Belief in the Qudrat i.e. God being the absolute
5. Belief in the books, scriptures, and Qurran being the last book
6. Belief in previous prophets
7. Belief in heavenly beings - angels etc.

So there is difference between pillars and components. The sixth componenet i.e. Rukan then is Jehad. It is not rubbish and cant be tonned down. There definitely are catagories of Jehad:

1. Jehad-bil-Lissan i.e. Jehad with your speech which is considered the best of all when you stand up against a tyrrant.

2. Jehad-bil-Qalam i.e. Jehad with your pen. It is same as the first one.

3. Jehad-bi-Saif :Jehad with your sword i.e. the last resort when all the avenues of compromise are closed.

4. Jehad-bil-Maal: Jihad with your wealth i.e. supporting the cause of Jihad with your money-also one of the best.

5. The lowest but not the last catagory of Jihad is when you are incapable of doing any one of the above but in your heart you consider what is wrong is wrong.

Zahra:
Jehad is one of the necessary Rukan of Islam. It cannot be tonned down and cannot be left out. There are as many verses that support and compel as to go on Jihad as there are for Namaz and other Arkan.

Zahra ...and Urstruly,

I am quite well aware of the pillars of Islam and the importance of prayer.

My only contention is that a beautiful message has been distorted and is, whether you agree or not, the cause for major concern at a global level.

Check Urstruly`s last post. The wrong Jehad seems to be very high on the list of some people.

Here is why I think Urstruly`s def of Jehad is wrong.

`Activism` is what Jehad is. Every human must be an activist against evil. Each one must ofcourse use extreme caution and definitely give the benefit of the doubt to those who he believes are evil.

Reason: Good and Evil are relative to a large extent and very subjective and based on a case by case basis.

One cannot just assume somebody else is wrong and take law into his own hands and punish him. The judgement part and punishment part are Gods prerogative. Making that perpetrator and others aware of the bad that is being done is the most important facet of Jehad.. not the part of killing someone because you think he is wrong. Because, again, if most people used their brains, what good comes of killing and mayhem? Ultimately does that solve the problem and rid the evil? No. Is it not a better Jehad to raise awareness to the evil and highlight the human suffering and ill effects of something bad that is being done. This is a message that will reach a wider audience. Just putting a bullet in somebody`s head does not solve the problem and is not Jehad.

Also, where in the Quran does it say Jehad is to be faught only against members of other faiths?

What about the Jehad against members of the own faith who are as evil?

Also, why selective Jehad?

Islam is begging for reform and the flock are running helter skelter doing all the wrong things. The message needs to be focused and real. People forget we are not using swords anymore and .. drum roll.. we are not bedouin.

Just imagine if Jehad by sword was elevated to Jehad by Nuclear bombs...

Again, Please let us use our brains. Even the slightest effort to think through things without prejudice and filters will make things a lot clearer.

Re: Urstruly

``Jehad is one of the necessary Rukan of Islam. It cannot be tonned down and cannot be left out.``

You are right.