They Changed My God

JR #231 Thanks for the salute, but I dont think there is anything I can say to convince you (a) Islam does not sanction religious killing. I find it incredibly bad manners to insult other people`s religions so easily as you do (and as Sadna was doing earlier until I had to thank her and wish her a good day). I presented you examples of killings done in the name of Hinduism, but you brush that of as being somehow justified. And I made it clear that I condemned the thugs who killed innocent children, not Hinduism. This is more courtesy than I have received from you when you keep telling me that Islam condones killing. (b) I gave you the example of the DNA to illustrate something I will have to put more bluntly now: you sir are penny wise pound foolish; you read focus on digits on the right side of the decimal, not the left side; you focus on form, not substance. You talk about reforming Islam, and your definition of reform is to re-organize the book. Ask a babu in the sub-continent what is good accounting and he will tell you one where debits equal credits. You will never find it possible to make him understand that there more to accounting than that.

Reform is indeed needed. It is needed in the hearts and minds of South Asians. Among Indians no less than among Pakistanis. And among the arrogant and opinionated middle and upper classes more than in anyone else. The Quran, the Vedas, even the Buddhas that were destroyed recently, are not the problem. It is the lousy education system and degenerate cultural traditions that produces people who have nothing better to do than find fault in everything rather than appreciating them.

Sorry if I have offended you, particularly after your nice compliment, but I think it is better to be honest than polite.

Rsaxena: Actually I had mentioned the Flat Earth Society in connection with the Atheists Society since both have a few things in common: both are a bit quaint and outdated by now; both are based on assumptions (saying there is no God is just as much an assumption as saying there is one). Personally, I think that what we are finding out through science indicates that the likelihood of our being the only consciousness is almost negligible. In order to believe in God we dont need to imagine what He is like either. Just that we are part of a much bigger story. The fact that religion has been made into a means for insulting one another on chowk and other forums is the fault of the individuals concerned, not religion.

Re: TAhmed

``Actually I had mentioned the Flat Earth Society in connection with the Atheists Society since both have a few things in common: both are a bit quaint and outdated by now; both are based on assumptions (saying there is no God is just as much an assumption as saying there is one).``

You do know that it was the Church which wanted to kill Galileo and other astronomers for suggesting that the Earth was neither flat nor the center of the universe, right?

``Personally, I think that what we are finding out through science indicates that the likelihood of our being the only consciousness is almost negligible.``

I fully agree with that. But I can`t accept some alien from outside the Milky Way as God!

Tahmed #240:

``JR #231 Thanks for the salute, but I dont think there is anything I can say to convince you (a) Islam does not sanction religious killing. I find it incredibly bad manners to insult other people`s

religions so easily as you do (and as Sadna was doing earlier until I had to thank her and wish her a good day). I presented you examples of killings done in the name of Hinduism, but you brush that of as being somehow justified. And I made it clear that I condemned the thugs who killed innocent children, not Hinduism. This is more courtesy than I have received from you when you keep telling me that Islam condones killing. (b) I gave you the example of the DNA to illustrate something I will have to put more bluntly now: you sir are penny wise pound foolish; you read focus on digits on the right side of the decimal, not the left side; you focus on form, not substance. You talk about reforming Islam, and your definition of reform is to re-organize the book. Ask a babu in the sub-continent what is good accounting and he will tell you one where debits equal credits. You will never find it possible to make him understand that there more to accounting than that.``

I dont know why you took a sudden turn? But, where have I in my post condoned Hindu religious violence? Also, you say I insulted Islam. Please sir be real, if questioning something is insulting then are you asking me to leave my brains behind when I come in to pray?

I knew you would never cross that line and admit that there are many not so noble verses in the Quran. I told you before, that you would predictably stop right there.

Also, sir you are very good with convoluted explanations - your most recent is Accountancy?

Final - Simple questions- Do you think that there are verses in the Quran that are demeaning to women and followers of other faiths?

Yes or No answer please - no DNA and accountancy, okay!

Do you think there are verses in the quran that are confusing and contradictory?

Do you think there are verses in the Quran that are time specific?

Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?

Prediction - I bet you will not answer, because it takes courage to say something is not right, even though for 1400 years people have said everything in it is right and timeless.

Also, you can accuse me all you want, but I am not insulting you or Islam. I am just asking some questions as a person who has read the Quran, the bible, the Torahs, Mahabharatha, Ramayana and the Gita.

Also, please do not assume that I follow a particular faith. I dont. I believe in God and trust all religions lead there, but I disagree with fanatics who say their religion is the true faith.

Remember the anecdore about God (mill owner) and the cotton pickers. In the final analysis, God does not ask the cotton pickers which road they took to get to the mill, but asked them what was the quality of the cotton they each have.

So sir, are you about the quality of the cotton or about which road you took to get the cotton to the mill?

JR:

Are wagers being accpeted on your `prediction`? Here`s my $20 that says it will come true. One caveat: more circularity and evasiveness must not be mistaken for a refutation. :)

I think you`re cool, but wonder what the motivation is. You think obviously otherwise intelligent folks don`t see what you see? Reminds me of a quote of Russell, which I`ll do violence with: ``What power has reason in the presence of faith?``

later,

PM

JR #246 You make some thoughtful points. I may add that it goes to your credit that you do so after what must have seemed a rather harsh post from me. I`ll get back to these (need to get to some mundane stuff now like preparing for a busy day coming up).

Rsaxena: Agreed. God is probably not a space alien who created the universe as a class project. I look at it this way: Religion is not there because God needs it. It is there for the benefit of man. And how does man benefit from religion: by rising above his animal instincts. Another thought for the day :-)

Bystander: Welcome sir and thanks for your comments on this thread.

The Bible says ``God created Man in His own image.``

Should it be the other way round? Man created God in his own image... even Islam that does not believe in images has assigned a (male) gender to God...

Even the most backward, isolated society of any time has worshipped God in some form of the other, with similar qualities - all powerful, giver of bounties, punisher of evil-doers... how is the God of one group different from that of others, basically?

I think one thing that distinguishes man from animals is the ability to believe in a God... and fight about it...

Re: TAhmed

``And how does man benefit from religion: by rising above his animal instincts.``

Animals are less destructive than we are. At least in terms of killing their own species. Humans specialize in that and are helped along by religion.

Greetings

It is just outstanding. Would you please point me to Urdu version or e-Mail as and attchment. Thank you.

Your humble

Mazhar

PM #247:

Motivation you ask?

Must I have a hidden agenda? I dont.

I am a seeker and an activist. I want to ask questions, tough ones, to see if there truly is something good behind the hype..because if there is then I want to be part of it.

But, all I face is `shut up`, `dont ask`, `believe without question`, `faith` etc.

Religion in the 21st century needs to cater to an educated, questioning, reasoning individual. Yes, there are thousands of sheep who follow without question. But I am not one of them. I asked a sheikh the same questions I raised and he refused to answer. He threatened me that I would face the wrath of Allah because I questioned.

My take, I know Allah wants me to question.

You can probably relate to the following, Patrick. I believe there is a story in the bible about a master giving his 2 servants `talents` before he left on a long trip. On his return, one of the servants showed the master how he buried his talents and brought back exactly what was given him. The other servant however, brought back much more because he had put his talents to work and created more for himself and his master. The Master rewards the one who put his talents to use and is displeased with the other.

I believe God has given us all our faculties to use at all times. i personally think it is a disgrace if we conveniently and selectively suspend our rationality and reasoning.

RSaxena

``Humans specialize in that and are helped along by religion.

``

The root of all the violence in the world is clash of group interests and inability of humans to resolve it peacefully. Even if the whole world follows one religion, the violemce will not stop. Most often, religion is used as a guise for meeting ulterior motives by the interested parties. So may be in this way the presence of a binding ideology like religion, prone to abuse helps interested groups in inciting violence. But the clash of interests would be there till we exist. Till the realisation occurs that peaceful means of conflict resolution are the only way to optimise collective good, the violence will continue, religion or no religion.

Sincerely

RSaxena

``Humans specialize in that and are helped along by religion.

``

The root of all the violence in the world is clash of group interests and inability of humans to resolve it peacefully. Even if the whole world follows one religion, the violemce will not stop. Most often, religion is used as a guise for meeting ulterior motives by the interested parties. So may be in this way the presence of a binding ideology like religion, prone to abuse helps interested groups in inciting violence. But the clash of interests would be there till we exist. Till the realisation occurs that peaceful means of conflict resolution are the only way to optimise collective good, the violence will continue, religion or no religion.

Sincerely

URS:

You wanted to make me feel bad for using the word, ``rubbish`` by giving all the details :-)
Clever Move! Thanks for the informative note, but my intent was different!

I know what you are saying, but I am not very positive on the intricacies of Pillars vs Components.[The way you have differentiated]. It has been a while since I have read the component- breakdown the way you have stated. I guess we learn that in our childhood so we take it for granted. Though I do remember it is mentioned in a long dua Eeeman-Something??? Sorry, do not remember.

I have used the word, Jehad in the context of wars/larayaan. I completely agree with your list, but that`s something I did not imply in anway or shape. You are also saying that there are Ayaats re-enforcing the purpose of Jehad. Yes, there are and I am not denying that. But Jehad is not the top priority or the main element of Islam. You mentioned 6th. There is a difference between 1st and 6th; similarly 2nd and 6th are not the same either. What`s number 1? What`s number 2? 3? 4? 5?......Then comes 6th.

At the time of your death, what`s the first question? Namaz or Jehad? Please clarify. Please read my question very carefully. I am asking what is asked? I am not saying what you will like to tell :-) There`s a difference :-)!


URS: Thanks for the informative correction. In early days of Islam, people were not that educated, lacked the negotiations skills and did not know how to resolve matters. So the end result was ``taking over by force``; or the opponent offered more resistance than cooperation so the result was... In current day and age, things do not have to go to those extremes as you have a lot of steps that can be covered in between before jumping to the last resort. Now if you do not want to indulge in a peace effort, or in a negotiation deal then obviously you will promote the Jehad by sword. I am against that. I hate fights. I hate killings. Last but not least, I hate the fact that Islam is being recognized by the last element ``Jehad - by sword`` than by its true spirit. Unfortunately, these killings are also not taking us anywhere, because they are defensive measures than an oppressive action.

What happened to the fact or the innocent myths or the very sweet implications or the reality...that if you offer your prayers[the ones that one should 5 times] then you will have the fear of God within you and you will not indulge in bad practices/killings/vulgar acts/fornication and etc etc etc...

``Amur-bil-Maroof-Wa-Nahi-Anil-Munkar``

What happened to if you fast then you will be more charitable/thankful to God for all the blessings/have self-control/strengthen your connection with God/sense of doing something for Allah Taala only...?

What happened to if you give charities then it will ward off all the bad things and bring prosperity/burkat/inculcate generosity/sharing/giving your stuff away/helping and etc...?

What happened to the main belief in God? Should not many things stem from there? Fear of God?


These were some random thoughts and I am just throwing them on the table as food for thought!


Later...

JR, #252:

(sigh!) A man close to my own er.. mind! (would`ve said heart, but rumour has it that I`m gay-- and I know how homophobic your average desi male is :) )

JR, I hear you-- loud and clear! I remember the terror I felt when I started questioning my religious beliefs at the ripe old age of 18-- just after deciding that perhaps non-Catholics (even those evil Protestants!) might actually have a shot at salvation and land of milk and honey and streets of gold (ummm... no one mentioned houris in OUR sexually repressive version of Paradise)

But through all the excorciating (sp?) pain that attended this questioning, one idea that never failed to revive the courage was that quip by Hazrat Essa that ``the truth will set you free``. Bam! I cannot fully express the imaginal and intellectual power of that idea to sustain this quest!

Yeah... why the heck should anyone/anybody be afraid of the TRUTH? And what should be my/our supreme value anyway? Faith, or Truth? Couldn`t we have faith in the truth being ultimately `good` -- no matter what it might reveal along the way.

I have the idea that Islam encourages it`s adherents -- explicitly anyway -- to question and take the rational approach to religion a lot more than traditional Christianity has-- at least this is waht I understand from some sayings of the Prophet himeslf about seeking knowledge.

However I guess Islam (or the Prophet) never foresaw those liberal/libeating dictums posing a threat to it`s own rather conservative, dogmatic `theological` foundations.

Sidebar thought: Islam wasn`t suppoed to have any theology in the conventional sense, but then, I guess man -- or religion -- cannot do without it. So we have the curious situation of many Muslims suggesting that reason is completely consisitent with religion, but exercising little of it beyond a certain point.

And that, dear JR (woulda said `sweet` but someone`s already cornered that market:) )was the point in my asking about your motivation. It would seem to me that reason can only go so far until it hits that wall called Dogamtic Faith -- beyond which lies the scary land of `kufr`.

Being reasonable is sometimes not so much a reasonable decision as it is a moral one.

Sheesh... now I`m beginning to sound like the priest I was supposed to be...

rgds,

PM

JR #246 Tahmed #240:

``But, where have I in my post condoned Hindu religious violence?``

Post #231 where you counter my example of the killing of the Australian missionary and his two sons by saying the there is a difference between killings sanctioned by religion (by which you mean Islam, incorrectly of course as I have pointed out but you seem quite determined to stick to this view) and killings motivated by religion. BS, I am sorry to say. Killing is killing, and to start drawing fine distinctions indicates the same line of thinking that got those killers to do the killing in the first place.

``Also, you say I insulted Islam. Please sir be real, if questioning something is insulting then are you asking me to leave my brains behind when I come in to pray?``

??

``I knew you would never cross that line and admit that there are many not so noble verses in the Quran.``

How can you be so sure? You dont know me other than through a couple of posts exchanges. This is the same presumptuousness that led PM to bet $20 that I would not respond to your post, which I am doing right now.

``Also, sir you are very good with convoluted explanations - your most recent is Accountancy?``

OK. No more of those since you have no use for them.

``Final - Simple questions- Do you think that there are verses in the Quran that are demeaning to women and followers of other faiths?``

No.

``Yes or No answer please - no DNA and accountancy, okay!``

No.

PS: I will not bother explaining my view since your mind is already made up, and you have been ignoring or downplaying every explanation I have tried to make on other points. So, have fun with your views on what Islam.

``Do you think there are verses in the quran that are confusing and contradictory?``

Yup.

``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that are time specific?``

Yup. (I said so in a previous post to you as well, but obviously you write better than you read).

``Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?``

Nope. Of course, we both disagree here, and no point in my trying to explain.

``Prediction - I bet you will not answer, because it takes courage to say something is not right, even though for 1400 years people have said everything in it is right and timeless.``

You seem to know how lacking in courage I am without knowing who I am. You must be God.

``Also, you can accuse me all you want, but I am not insulting you or Islam. I am just asking some questions as a person who has read the Quran, the bible, the Torahs, Mahabharatha, Ramayana and the Gita. ``

More power to you.

``Also, please do not assume that I follow a particular faith. I dont. I believe in God and trust all religions lead there, but I disagree with fanatics who say their religion is the true faith. ``

Interesting definition of a fanatic. Incidentally, I never said this, and on this thread alone I must have repeated God (and you) knows how many times that there is nothing special about being a muslim (per the Quran, and per my belief). Again, your writing is very nice, but reading (and listening) seem to require some attention.

``Remember the anecdore about God (mill owner) and the cotton pickers. In the final analysis, God does not ask the cotton pickers which road they took to get to the mill, but asked them what was the quality of the cotton they each have.

So sir, are you about the quality of the cotton or about which road you took to get the cotton to the mill?``

The former (end product, these being deeds in case of humans). I dont recall saying anything in my earlier posts to give any impression other than this. Incidentally, I thought you did not like anecdotes and liked straight questions and answers.

PS: Dont forget to collect $20 from PM. I wont predict that he wont now ask for your mailing address so he may send you a check, since I am sure he means everything he says.

Rsaxena #250 I agree that animals get a bad rap when we refer to some humans as animals. A deer never shot a hunter. While people seek to gain power and wealth and even kill in the name of religion, the motivating force is not religion. The motivating force is the same as that of people who seek to gain power and wealth and even kill for the heck of it (driven, I am sure, by deep psychological insecurities and so forth, but that is their problem and should not be made society`s problem). On the other hand, religion can provide us a firm anchor for promoting certain values in society - as I mentioned before, some non-religious folks in Pakistan (and India too, as shown by tehelka.com) have raped the country. The religious groups (the lashkars) are no replacement and are too stupid and weak to ever take power in Pakistan (my opinion). But all this goes to show the backwardness of our people. Religion is good or bad only if we make it so.