They Changed My God

Asif #43 ``Islam CATEGORICALLY says that those who REJECT Islam are going to the Fire, insha Allah.``

You understand Islam to be the same as your beliefs which have been formed by worshipping other men whose books you routinely quote. That is not Islam, and that is why you come up with such incorrect statements as in this post. The Quran makes it clear that calling oneself a muslim is neither necessary nor sufficient to be blessed by Allah, that there are no chosen people (the Quran condemns this concept of the chosen people that you fervently believe in) and that one can be of any religion and still go to heaven on Judgement Day. Your ignorance of Islam is of the same level as the Taliban, and this ignorance is matched only by the certainty with which you present yourself as a muslim.

Re: Studebaker #48

What the heck are you trying to say? If you rewrite your post in English or Hindi/Urdu, I will respond.

Hamsab,

You are correct... God wants a pluralistic world. The Quran says...

``We made you into nations so that you may know each other``...

Indeed I see the future of the world where many Sovereign Nation states can come together in a confederation on equal footing ... making a world confederation.

Yasser Hamdani

And for those of you fundoos out there who are going to jump down my throat with the logic of

``Nasikh`` and ``Mansookh``... and the ``usul ul Fiqh`` BECAUSE of my reply 39...

... I am well aware of these concepts... I am not willing to believe that a sheikh can declare one verse as the the abrogating verse, and the other one as the abrogated one.

The way Quaid`s legacy is being revised in Pakistan is reminiscent of the way Quran`s message has been tampered with in Islamic History.

I am willing to believe and give you the principle ``time specificity`` and ``abrogation``... but then consider the following verses abrogated !

1) 4 34 : punishment of women

2) Women being half witnesses

3) Jews and christians can never be your friends

These three verses were clearly time specific, and were in reference to the socio-political scene in the state of Medina, where there was a constitutional agreement between the jews and the Prophet.

YLH

Obviously most important to Pakistan more than anything else is following pronouncement...

``You are FREE! You are free to go to your temples.

You are free to go to your mosques. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed- That has nothing to do with the business of the State!``

Pakistan Zindabad

Pankaj #29 From your posts it seems you are doing fine. It may seem strange how God would care about one individual out of 6 billion on earth at this time, in one lonely planet out of many. But you probably know from your understanding of elementary particle physics (or in any other field like genetics or astronomy), stranger things that most people dont dream of even today are quite possible.

Re: scout

``But this same God is responsible for them dying and suffering.

Mullahs, priests, and rabbis have no answer, they all say the same thing: You can`t question God`s ways, it was meant to happen.``

You can pandits to that list too.

Finally, a sensible post from you after a long time ;)

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Scout, RSaxena :

When you innoculate a baby, the hypodermic gives the baby an instant of pain. But it is instantaneous and you do not think it evil.

In Hindu belief, the few score years of one life time are brief compared to the billions of years of one cycle of creation, and you are going through life again and again and again, until you wise up. ( One of the problems with the Hindu invention of the place value system is that you do not appreciate the immensity of a number like 1,000,000,000. If you had to write it out as a million ``M``s, you quickly would. )

When you awaken, the value you will attach to happiness and sorrow and joy and suffering is somewhat different from what regular people do.

It does not mean that an unawakened person can have the same detachment about these as the awakened, because the route to awakening involves being concerned and doing something for the welfare of the life around you.

And RSaxena, if you don`t want to talk about God, you don`t have to; Buddhism says much the same thing, but in a more abstract way; the Buddha refused to talk about soul, etc., as being unnecessary info. to walk the path.

-Arun the Infidelator

.......i thought all this foolishness was behind us .... god ? ...... didn`t he die more than a hundred years ago ... or did nietzsche just dream it up ...

Asif Naqsbandi Mudazallah Aleh# 43

Although you presented that anybody who rejects Islam will not be accepted in the eyes of Allah.

But did Quran ever mentioned that anybody who rejects Islam of your brand and even Islam of Shariat Mohammedi will not be accepted.

Islam is not Shariat Mohammedi for one thing. It is clear in Quran that Abraham was a true Muslim. And he did not made partners with God. So are all the prophets mentioned in Quran at some place as Muslims. So the criteria of Muslim is given as believer in One God who does not make partners with God even without believing into Shariat-e-Mohammadi moreso your brand of Shariat-e-Mohammedi.

And your point regarding Ayah that Christians, Jews, and Sabaens etc whoever believes in God and do good will have his reward from God is only related to people upto prophet PBUH.

1- Since the Ayah do not mention any such thing, how did you state such a statement.

2- The jewish and Christian Books had already been corrupted at the time of Prophet PBUH as is well evident in Quran (and the Ayah you presented)and are still in the same form as at the time of prophet PBUH. So why it is restricted to upto the time of prophet PBUH, I cannot understand.

Studebaker #148 from Mahim Maher`s board.

I must say I am very impressed! I am posting my response here for convenience. Also, some other people may have thoughtful contributions to make. After all, what we know of history strongly affects how think and behave. Hence, the issues here may be of general interest.

Writing from the heart you have raised issues that are important to you. By extension, these issues should be important to every Indian. Therefore, I invite you to help us all better understand your perspective.

1. A lot of Hindus believe that Hinduism and Islam are fundamentally different in how they have historically treated nonbelievers in their paths. If there was widespread destruction of Jain and Buddist places of worship by Hindu kings at many points in time, then Hindus clearly need to rethink their view of Hinduism as a more tolerant religion than Islam. Please DO provide any reliable information that you may have on this score.

2. You are saying something important below but it is not clear. You mention how Hinduism tends to include Jainism, Buddhismm, and Sikhism, and then say the following.

``I find that intellectually DISHONEST just as you asking for concessions without any consideration,goodwill &concern for Muslims from Kashmir to Coimbatore &Tripura To Gujrat.You at he same time sermonise as Indians ,yet some time NonMuslim spokes person ,(by speaking for Jain,Buddhist &Sikh Christian)&turn around & want seperate concessions as HINDU /Hindutva??``

Can you please explain the points you are making.

3. You feel that thanks to many great Muslim sufis, relations between Hindus and Muslims were amicable up until as recently as only 150 yrs ago. Then the relations became bad ``when Shyama Prasad Mukherjee ,& other wesetrn english educated Hindu tried to plan a revival so as to enslave Muslim population --for the same reason as you want to revert back the clock so that Hindu could rule Muslims for 1000 years inFUTURE.

Shyama prasad Mukherjee Selectively instead of working for ALL indians ,encouraged English education among hindus spl.in Bengal& Punjab so as to get a head start who were still struggling the aspersions of both rising Hindu modernites & receding English power.

iFEEL THIS PRIOD OF LATE 1800 early 1900 ,people from Hindu community absolutely derided the MUSLIM community knowing fully that they were going to march ahead with Hindu modernisation ultimately enslaving muslims even though as a republic it was equality of indians that should have been more important to think in terms of indians rarher than HIndu university of Benares,Hindu vidyalya ,DAV School.``

Again, this appears to be an important point. Therefore, could you please explain it further? How could these things have led to conflict? Afterall, this kind of stuff had been the standard fare for centuries. Specifically, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee was born 3 years AFTER Sir Syed Ahmad (a person I admire) died. This is how the website storyofpakistan.com describes Sir Syed Ahmad:

``During the 1860s, Syed Ahmad became an active public leader, journalist and orator as well as the founder of a series of schools and associations - all aimed at a cultural renaissance and a moral and social regeneration through adherence to the real Islamic values and reawakening the Muslims to modern thinking and education.



Following a trip to England in 1869-70, Syed Ahmad determined to establish an autonomous Indian Muslim educational system which would prepare a new intellectual leadership grounded in Western knowledge as well as in a reformed Islam. Thus, the Muhammadan Anglo-Oriental College Aligarh, founded in 1875, and Mohammadan Educational Conference in 1886, became centers of communal unity for Indian Muslims.

In 1887, Sir Syed, as he came to be known, warned the Muslims to keep away from the Indian National Congress and in order to defend the political fortune of the Muslims, he helped to bring into being the Mohammadan Defense Association in 1893.``

Even the Muslim League had come into existence when Shyama Prasad Mukherjee was barely five years old!

In 1920, the Mohammedan Anglo-Oriental College established by Sir Syed Ahmad in 1875 was turned into the Aligarh Muslim University. This was one year BEFORE the Banaras Hindu University was opened.

So studebaker, it seems to me that Hindu leaders were merely beginning to do in their community what Muslim leaders had already been doing in their community. All these leaders, Hindus and Muslims were making wonderful efforts. I am not sure what you find (or some Muslims found) offensive in all this?

You mention the fear of ``many rich & powerful hindu names Madn mohan malviya,Jamuna Lal Baja ,Dalmia Birla.`` But hadn`t Hindus lived with many rich and powerful Muslims for a thousand years? Why should any Muslim have objected to/be afraid of the wealth some Hindus were accumulating? What am I missing here?

Finally, most relevant, you mention your ``due part which so called founding fathers illegally ,meanfully,stepmotherly denied`` to you because you were not a Hindu. Again, it was not clear what you were denied illegal and meanfully by founding fathers of India.

I am glad we have an opportunity to learn about real issues in a calm and peaceful manner. I look forward to your response. If others have ideas, and if they can express those ideas without abusing people, please do join in.

krashid,

see the verses in the reply #43 of mine. they are crystal clear. see, this is what happens if you dont learn islam from an aalim but rather try to rationalise everything according to yourself. A basic text on islamic aqeedah is what you need. But really i am too tired and have to many importants things to do than to debate this with you. Janaab, Muslims have believed this since the time of the Sahaba--if you wish to believe differently it is entirely up to you. ``For you your religion, for me mine.``

ylh

``... but then consider the following verses abrogated !

1) 4 34 : punishment of women

2) Women being half witnesses

3) Jews and christians can never be your friends``

....... thank you for your kind support ..... now all we have to do is get maulana sami-ul-haq and his one-eyed disciple, mullah omar, to ratify these ammendments to the koran ......... while you are at it, why don`t you propose revoking the ban on ahmedis and wine .... we can tackle the question of pork and polygamy after your next meeting with gabriel .........

.... see, this is what happens when you are taught theology and comparative religion by a patel on furlough from his night-auditor`s job at the comfort inn .............

Asif N. #62 The Surahs you quote and use to then say ``See? Islam CATEGORICALLY says that those who REJECT Islam are going to the Fire, insha Allah.`` in #43 say nothing of the kind. Just quoting from the Quran and then drawing your own preferred conclusions anyway is not enough: Those conclusions should have some reasonable connection to the Surah you quote: in your case that is not true.

And how dare you use the words ``insha Allah`` with your own conclusions: God is not there to do your bidding - it is for you to do his bidding. You cannot fool God, you cannot even fool other people with your post #43, only yourself.

All I can say is that you have come a step closer to Islam by looking towards the Quran rather than to books written by other men. The next step is to understand the Quran and to change your way of thinking accordingly. Whether you are capable of doing that, given the bloodthirsty and unIslamic views you have expressed in your posts, remains to be seen.

brother Asif Naqshbandi,

Unless you`re mucho impressed with the Taleban and want to be become the successor to Bin Laden, don`t turn religion into a destructive monster.

There is more to gain by embracing than excluding good things, good people in this world, who were created by the same God who created Muslims like you and me.

sister scout