They Changed My God

Dear Iqbal:

Your god is already with you since you could write this poem so beautifully. Reading morning newspaper has become a sadest event of my daily chores, when a desperate feeling of losing God overshadows the mind while reading about widespread destruction, hate and horror all over the world. Then, the God comes back either in a form of a beautiful poetry as you have written, or at the sight of the playground full of children`s laughter. We all want our Gods back for all 24 hours, all 365 days, and all years! Not just for those fractional moments.

Regards

Omar #19

You say,``Imagine the athiest who thinks the same way. Why would you want to go out of your way to help someone else if it hinders your own being? Athiesm in my opinion breeds selfishness where one works for their own self. That is then surely wrong.

``

I must say you have raised a very profound question. That prompts me to think if the origin of virtues in human beings related to the concept of God and by extension, religion. If you talk of the present world, the answer would be in part, yes. I think a lot of people are ``moral`` and do good because of their belief in God. But at the same time there are a number of athiests/agnostics who are also virtuous people by conventional standards. Thus the question echoes:- Is there any concept of virtues without bringing a supernatural force like God into the picture. In other words, can the set of moral values, altruistic behaviour etc. evolve in a society without any reference to God. Below is my analysis:

The daily interactions of an individual with the society can be broadly classified into zero sum games and the non zero sum games. In ZSG(zero sum game), your loss is my win and vice-versa, while in a NZSG both the parties may have a win-win situation if they choose to coperate. I must mention that in most of the cases, being ZSG/NZSG is a property of a situation. ``Prisoner`s dilemma`` is a classical example of a non zero sum game in which the ``welfare`` of both the prisoners is maximised when they choose to cooperate and ``trust`` each other. In general, it is observed that while a ``cooperative approach`` is better suited in non zero sum games, people tend to take a ``competitive approach`` in a ZSG intended to optimise one`s own ``welfare`` at the cost of other. Remember in both the approaches, it is the self interest that prompts a person to adopt a cooperative/competitive posture.

Now the so called ``set of high values`` like trust, honesty,truth etc are favoured by the nature in a ``cooperative approach``, in general

and hence their evolution. Obviously one can not coperate with another unless both develop trust and believe in the honesty and truthfullness of the other. However ``competitive approach`` in many cases tends to favour breach of trust, falsehood etc. Thus the kind of value system that evolves over time in a society is the result of interplay of these forces. The equilibrium at any time is determined by the relative frequency of ZSG(zero sum games) and NZSG that an average person encounters in a day-to- day interaction

with society. I suspect the need for survival of an average human being results in higher frequency of daily life situations which are NZSG in nature, such that a coperative approach favours him more than competitive approach in general. In such a case, the universal value set of truth, honesty etc would spontaneously evolve catalysed by the global optimisation of everybody`s needs. And this would happen even without any concept of God.

But my above hypothesis also predicts that if the situations change in such a manner that the frequency of ZSG games becomes higher, the present value system may as well erode giving way to falsehood, deceit etc. This is probably what is happening in today`s world when the person is less dependent upon society for its survival and hence ZSG are increasing in frequency.

Always keep in mind, it is the global optimisation of needs that

determines a value system.





Sincerely

Godot,

``Religion is the backbone of civilization``

I disagree... religion is the backbone of culture.

Civilization is one... it is the human civilization, this human civilization is divided into various nations, based on three main criteria...

1) Language

2) Common Culture : Customs religious beliefs

3) common Education.

Now if you wanna argue ``multi-sub-civilizational`` world.. then let me line up the Pakistan ...or what it ideally should be in order to have a logical identity (that is if being the citizen of that state is not good enough)...

1) Language : Urdu

2) Culture : Muslim

3) Sub-Civ : South Asian

Let us rise above the discourse of the nation .. for I am sure we are conciously or subconciously aware of our national and Sub National groups (I am a Pakistani Muslim for example)... and concern ourselves first and foremost with the state....

``You are free- You are free to go to your temples.

You are free to go to your mosques or anyother place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

In time, the Hindu community will vanish and the Muslim Community will vanish, not in a religious sense, but in a political sense and we shall all become equal citizens of one state.``

(Jinnah : 11th August 1947 )

The abovementioned should be our constitution`s preamble, our nation-state`s ideal, and the end product of a struggle for equality.

Pakistan Zindabad

rsridhar #367 you seem very unhappy my friend. try not to be childish about pakistan getting all this press coverage and not india, and musharaff getting interviewed and not vajpayee. remind yourself that india and pakistan are not playing a zero-sum game, and if things start to look up for pakistan that is good for everyone in the subcontinent. this is a friendly piece of advice that is ultimately to your own benefit, so please dont come back trying to show how i have misunderstood the reasons behind your peevishness.

Dear Editor

What a beautiful poem? And I am sure it is thousand times more beautiful in Urdu. Has the poem been published? If not is it possible to get a copy of the original in Urdu. I would be grateful for any help in this respect.

Thanks

Anwar Iqbal,

May Allah bless you! You have shone ... and in you, I hope people will see their reflection ...

I would love to see the Urdu Version of this poem ...

Keep up the good work.

YLH

Answer to Adnan 672

Surat Maidah 5:69

``Lo those who believe, and those who are jews, and Sabeans(Star Worshippers), and Christians- whosoever believeth in God and the last day and does the righteous deed- there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve``

As we can see there is no mention of monotheism, or Islam being the only right course... as a matter of fact star worshippers, the Sabeans (As Sabaoun) etc are being promised heaven.

adnan # 28

God wants a pluralistic world. Otherwise, since God is supposed to be the provider and all powerful, he would have ensured 1400 years ago that among all those who refuse to turn to new faith, men become impotent and women become barren. World would have become one following one faith in 100 years. Then God would not have to go through cruel and sadistic path of `slaying the unbelievers`. Since this has not happened that shows God is happy to have people coming to him taking different paths.

Yasser # 39

Shaabash. That is like an intelligent child.

I believe in God but I question his motives when I see a suffering little baby, a child who can`t walk because he`s debilitated by cancer, a victim of sexual/child abuse...etc..

Yes, God is ever-so-present in happiness and all happy things like children playing in the park, roses in bloom, whatever...

But this same God is responsible for them dying and suffering.

Mullahs, priests, and rabbis have no answer, they all say the same thing: You can`t question God`s ways, it was meant to happen.

Some verses of the Qur`an Sharif (Shakir`s translation). We must of course read the tafsirs for full explanation as no translation can convey the full meanings in the original arabic... * * * *

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust. (5:72)

and

Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve. (5:73)

and

O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. (5:57)

and

Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors? (5:59)

See? Islam CATEGORICALLY says that those who REJECT Islam are going to the Fire, insha Allah.

Because Islam made all previous scriptures redundant.. Yes, those Jews Christians etc who followed their Books up to the coming of the Messenger alayhisalatosalaam are in the Garden insha Allah. Wallahu alam.

RE: egalitarian #30

Good point. We are biologically programmed to be centered around ourselves..many smart people see their own benefit in being kind to others but the ultimate goal really is the same...they just expect someone to be watching their good deeds and rewarding them for it.

Zahra #9 Glad you liked my post on God. I thought it was pretty cool myself :-)

RSaxena: I share with you the anguish at all the injustices that take place while God is supposed to be watching over all of us. All I can say is that one cannot understand God`s reasons. Some things that look bad in the short run turn out to be good in the long run.

I want to write quite a few thoughts on this subject, but before I proceed any further; I would like to put all the physicists in one cage. After that, I would find a deserted island and leave the cage there Or I`d get a triptik from AAA for Sahara Desert and throw the cage there.
(scheming mind)

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