The Meaning of Pakistan
Aisha Sarwari March 10, 2001
#584 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on March 26, 2001 10:55:14 pm
re Reply #: 581 Siraj
Kumbafuu, Habari yako!
Now you see, I have no affinity with the Mouguls, it`s just interesting how Indians whine like a cat with a crushed tail when we mention them.
Aunty Rupinder, used to tell me tales since she has done MA in History, and I also told her what I knew of the massacres that they did, the train. etc and how they struck first, I also made her read Stanley wolpert, she said `` I didn`t know this much of Jinnah Sahib, I read the book twice.`` And I asked her a few questions to see if she did. Believe me she isn`t the same Rupinder... :)
And she did write a shair for me, in beautiful Urdu, because I am the one who went and sat with her when she was looking alone and blue, she likes me a lot, still does... so take a hike to the lap of Aurenzeb and get spanked!
Later,
Aisha
Kumbafuu, Habari yako!
Now you see, I have no affinity with the Mouguls, it`s just interesting how Indians whine like a cat with a crushed tail when we mention them.
Aunty Rupinder, used to tell me tales since she has done MA in History, and I also told her what I knew of the massacres that they did, the train. etc and how they struck first, I also made her read Stanley wolpert, she said `` I didn`t know this much of Jinnah Sahib, I read the book twice.`` And I asked her a few questions to see if she did. Believe me she isn`t the same Rupinder... :)
And she did write a shair for me, in beautiful Urdu, because I am the one who went and sat with her when she was looking alone and blue, she likes me a lot, still does... so take a hike to the lap of Aurenzeb and get spanked!
Later,
Aisha
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#583 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on March 26, 2001 10:55:14 pm
Assalamalaikum,
Krashid.
``At your age my thoughts were same and I am pretty sure when I reach BAhmed`s age I will be thinking like him.``
The problem with experience is that it tells you too much about what won`t work, you and Mr. Ahmed are not conscious of that fact and hence will not act in the direction you ``know`` will not work, that is what PhD’s do. I on the other hand don`t know something won`t work, and even when I find out I leave room for the fact that people don`t know the real thing and the only way to find out in dive in. So more often than not I get it done.
I will try not to be like you or Mr. Ahmed...or many people who look at me and say ``I was like that at your age`` Not because they are not great enough but because their imagination is replaced by experience.
``So Karachi is not Pakistan and God-forbid that time when my city of birth and brought up becomes Pakistan. (Although rampant rangers and policemen are trying hard to make it into Pakistan)``
I think you miss burns Road`s nihrahi and rabree too much. :) Karachi is Pakistan, its has the crème of Pakistan`s society that is an image of what its foundation is. It is true that there have been times its been ignored, and the people themselves stood up and got issues highlighted, its also true that they have lost a lot, and the reason for that is we have leaders who are like Altaf Hussain, they do something good then they use the power their position gives them to make people aware of their superiority. This awareness alone is a fire that I think has kept Karachi consumed in itself ever since I can remember. It should be coupled with humility and recognition of true togetherness. All I am saying isn`t some kind of goody goody dream. It`s essentially a way we must opt for to secure our future, the other option of revenge and hatred can be melted away by remembering that Karachi was the concentration of the movement, it has to have the greatest number of aftershocks and tremors.
William Baker the other day, had a very interesting comment on the Kashmir forum at SJSU, ``India has never forgiven Muslims for the creation of Pakistan, and their survival independently without mother India.`` There are a lot of people in the subcontinent who found it very difficult to come to terms with the facts, its allowed that they react...though now its time we stop and reflect to direct our reaction to more stable directions.
Mr. Admed.
Thanks for your response. Here is another attempt to clearly bridge my concept of Pakistan with its history to what it is today, and what ought to be tomorrow.
When I read about Jinnah, I there is one consistency therein... its the consistency itself. This man, in my opinion did not change his beliefs, did not waiver for a single time. Changing circumstances changed his approach but not what he was fighting for.
Knowing the westerner he was, he felt a certain ``giving back to society what I got`` for his people. He returned and upon examination of south Asia`s events and attitudes he was convinced it is necessary for the Muslims to have sufficient representation. He was the advocates for Hindu Muslim unity, this was on the principle of Co-existence being a prerequisite to peace. Nothing deterred him form that position, until Congress itself showed disregard for the League`s presence. He realized that the Hindu politics was using Hindu Muslim unity not in a sincere way but to achieve an end to the goal of keeping India united, perhaps on the mercy of a minority.
It was then that Jinnah learnt the lesson, that we all do at some points of our life, and that is the realization that you can`t get things done without popular support and for that you have to, as a leader ``influence`` the ideas of your follower instead of simply doing what`s right. He didn`t use symbols unlike the Hindu side, however he did point out that the universal principles he was fighting for also are overlapped in the Quran. Human dignity, equality, justice, protection of minorities etc... and though it left room for fundoos to get it, it was a necessity back then and there is noting wrong with doing so.
After Pakistan was created, he did not call it the Islamic republic but the Dominion of Pakistan, the Munir report, his 11th August speech etc, all these things are indicative of the fact that this man was using his experience to ensure Pakistan does not leave room for the problems that Muslims fought for earlier in a united India.
See the consistency? Hindu-Muslim Unity for co-existence, events forcing him to Making Pakistan for these people who were previously denied things he deemed important: Equality and justice, and making Pakistan he focused on equality and Justice.
Now the problems with Pakistan, the greatest one being that Jinnah passed away so early.
1. Leadership that did not begin at grass root levels, and only focused on the top.
2. A pause between the time people moved and the time they started to build again. Should have been done in the same breath.
3. People who didn`t move from anywhere having problems accommodating all the people, and showing it.
4. Kashmir
5. A bad neighbor inciting adrenalin, leaving little room for high thoughts and education.
6. A culture of blaming...hence finding it hard to forgive.
Today the problems are.
1. A generation that does not give a damn about what happened, so they have no idea how precious Pakistan is.
2. Use of religion as solace to lack of talent or ability.
3. A refusal to co-exist, ``God-forbid Karachi is ever Pakistan.``
4. A bad memory, electing people who have not been too good earlier.
5. Two bad neighbors.
The reason I believe in Pakistan.
1. It didn`t run away from its responsibility to the people in Afghanistan, when the International community turned away, leaving a war-ravaged debris-filled country with suffering people.
2. The blend of values and reason that 85% of Pakistani family structures have.
3. Its not bullied by India.
4. It has very good role models for people who want to build.
5. Increasing importance in the value of education.
6. Being more aware of Problems.
7. Dawn newspaper.
8. Edhi, who despite practices Islam without it costing others.
9. The women of Pakistan. Their desire to have better for their kids.
10. The constructers who work night and day.
11. Musharraf`s government and how no one can sell it magic.
12. The way we know that the Islam is Afghanistan is wrong, and Pakistani influence in trying to convince Afghanistan that women should be educated. (They have no money to educate males, that`s another issue)
13. Pakistan Day, Eid, etc in Pakistan.
14. Lahore and its welcoming people. Islamabad and its organized blocks. The green in the north.
15. Respect for foreigners instead of contempt.
16. Cricket.
17. The beach.
18. The Indus River.
19. Geographic diversity. Ethnic diversity, Cultural diversity, Archeology, Language.
20. FOOD!!!! etc.
Now there is need for:-
+ Both India and Pakistan to have a dialogue, with international mediation to settle Kashmir sooner rather than latter.
+ Education abolishing the revisionism.
+ Reforms that help redistribute and circulate wealth.
+ Pakistanis abroad getting off their whining and start doing.
+ Having strict adherence of a constitution that is rid of the ``Islamic`` words and replaced by something more comfy for all Pakistanis of all religions caste or creeds.
+ Approaching democracy.
Wassalam.
Aisha
Urstruly.
Thank you :)
Krashid.
``At your age my thoughts were same and I am pretty sure when I reach BAhmed`s age I will be thinking like him.``
The problem with experience is that it tells you too much about what won`t work, you and Mr. Ahmed are not conscious of that fact and hence will not act in the direction you ``know`` will not work, that is what PhD’s do. I on the other hand don`t know something won`t work, and even when I find out I leave room for the fact that people don`t know the real thing and the only way to find out in dive in. So more often than not I get it done.
I will try not to be like you or Mr. Ahmed...or many people who look at me and say ``I was like that at your age`` Not because they are not great enough but because their imagination is replaced by experience.
``So Karachi is not Pakistan and God-forbid that time when my city of birth and brought up becomes Pakistan. (Although rampant rangers and policemen are trying hard to make it into Pakistan)``
I think you miss burns Road`s nihrahi and rabree too much. :) Karachi is Pakistan, its has the crème of Pakistan`s society that is an image of what its foundation is. It is true that there have been times its been ignored, and the people themselves stood up and got issues highlighted, its also true that they have lost a lot, and the reason for that is we have leaders who are like Altaf Hussain, they do something good then they use the power their position gives them to make people aware of their superiority. This awareness alone is a fire that I think has kept Karachi consumed in itself ever since I can remember. It should be coupled with humility and recognition of true togetherness. All I am saying isn`t some kind of goody goody dream. It`s essentially a way we must opt for to secure our future, the other option of revenge and hatred can be melted away by remembering that Karachi was the concentration of the movement, it has to have the greatest number of aftershocks and tremors.
William Baker the other day, had a very interesting comment on the Kashmir forum at SJSU, ``India has never forgiven Muslims for the creation of Pakistan, and their survival independently without mother India.`` There are a lot of people in the subcontinent who found it very difficult to come to terms with the facts, its allowed that they react...though now its time we stop and reflect to direct our reaction to more stable directions.
Mr. Admed.
Thanks for your response. Here is another attempt to clearly bridge my concept of Pakistan with its history to what it is today, and what ought to be tomorrow.
When I read about Jinnah, I there is one consistency therein... its the consistency itself. This man, in my opinion did not change his beliefs, did not waiver for a single time. Changing circumstances changed his approach but not what he was fighting for.
Knowing the westerner he was, he felt a certain ``giving back to society what I got`` for his people. He returned and upon examination of south Asia`s events and attitudes he was convinced it is necessary for the Muslims to have sufficient representation. He was the advocates for Hindu Muslim unity, this was on the principle of Co-existence being a prerequisite to peace. Nothing deterred him form that position, until Congress itself showed disregard for the League`s presence. He realized that the Hindu politics was using Hindu Muslim unity not in a sincere way but to achieve an end to the goal of keeping India united, perhaps on the mercy of a minority.
It was then that Jinnah learnt the lesson, that we all do at some points of our life, and that is the realization that you can`t get things done without popular support and for that you have to, as a leader ``influence`` the ideas of your follower instead of simply doing what`s right. He didn`t use symbols unlike the Hindu side, however he did point out that the universal principles he was fighting for also are overlapped in the Quran. Human dignity, equality, justice, protection of minorities etc... and though it left room for fundoos to get it, it was a necessity back then and there is noting wrong with doing so.
After Pakistan was created, he did not call it the Islamic republic but the Dominion of Pakistan, the Munir report, his 11th August speech etc, all these things are indicative of the fact that this man was using his experience to ensure Pakistan does not leave room for the problems that Muslims fought for earlier in a united India.
See the consistency? Hindu-Muslim Unity for co-existence, events forcing him to Making Pakistan for these people who were previously denied things he deemed important: Equality and justice, and making Pakistan he focused on equality and Justice.
Now the problems with Pakistan, the greatest one being that Jinnah passed away so early.
1. Leadership that did not begin at grass root levels, and only focused on the top.
2. A pause between the time people moved and the time they started to build again. Should have been done in the same breath.
3. People who didn`t move from anywhere having problems accommodating all the people, and showing it.
4. Kashmir
5. A bad neighbor inciting adrenalin, leaving little room for high thoughts and education.
6. A culture of blaming...hence finding it hard to forgive.
Today the problems are.
1. A generation that does not give a damn about what happened, so they have no idea how precious Pakistan is.
2. Use of religion as solace to lack of talent or ability.
3. A refusal to co-exist, ``God-forbid Karachi is ever Pakistan.``
4. A bad memory, electing people who have not been too good earlier.
5. Two bad neighbors.
The reason I believe in Pakistan.
1. It didn`t run away from its responsibility to the people in Afghanistan, when the International community turned away, leaving a war-ravaged debris-filled country with suffering people.
2. The blend of values and reason that 85% of Pakistani family structures have.
3. Its not bullied by India.
4. It has very good role models for people who want to build.
5. Increasing importance in the value of education.
6. Being more aware of Problems.
7. Dawn newspaper.
8. Edhi, who despite practices Islam without it costing others.
9. The women of Pakistan. Their desire to have better for their kids.
10. The constructers who work night and day.
11. Musharraf`s government and how no one can sell it magic.
12. The way we know that the Islam is Afghanistan is wrong, and Pakistani influence in trying to convince Afghanistan that women should be educated. (They have no money to educate males, that`s another issue)
13. Pakistan Day, Eid, etc in Pakistan.
14. Lahore and its welcoming people. Islamabad and its organized blocks. The green in the north.
15. Respect for foreigners instead of contempt.
16. Cricket.
17. The beach.
18. The Indus River.
19. Geographic diversity. Ethnic diversity, Cultural diversity, Archeology, Language.
20. FOOD!!!! etc.
Now there is need for:-
+ Both India and Pakistan to have a dialogue, with international mediation to settle Kashmir sooner rather than latter.
+ Education abolishing the revisionism.
+ Reforms that help redistribute and circulate wealth.
+ Pakistanis abroad getting off their whining and start doing.
+ Having strict adherence of a constitution that is rid of the ``Islamic`` words and replaced by something more comfy for all Pakistanis of all religions caste or creeds.
+ Approaching democracy.
Wassalam.
Aisha
Urstruly.
Thank you :)
#582 Posted by ylh on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
Krashid
``Karachi is not Pakistan``
People like you are the murderers of Pakistan. I can only pray to God, that Pakistan and Karachi are purged of fools like yourself!
-PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!
``Karachi is not Pakistan``
People like you are the murderers of Pakistan. I can only pray to God, that Pakistan and Karachi are purged of fools like yourself!
-PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!
#581 Posted by Eklavya on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
Here is a book that really strengthened my confidence in the future of Pakistan. I was not sure if such books could be safely published and made available to young people in the post-Zia Pakistan without someone running the risk of having to pay formidably high social costs. If books such as this are still commonly available and discussed, then I am glad I was wrong in my fears.
The book itself describes hypothetical demise of both Pakistan and India, and may infuriate some patriots on both sides. However, that will be missing the book`s key message to all South Asians: building strong future is more important for any nation than inventing feel-good mythical histories.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books2.htm
The book itself describes hypothetical demise of both Pakistan and India, and may infuriate some patriots on both sides. However, that will be missing the book`s key message to all South Asians: building strong future is more important for any nation than inventing feel-good mythical histories.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books2.htm
#580 Posted by msarwar on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
Every Pakistani should read an excellent article on Pakistan in March 2000 issue of THE WORLD AN I,
Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower
Underestimated Pakistanis May Be a Degree Too Self-Confident
by Khalid Durán
http://www.worldandi.com/subscribers/2001/March/duran.cfm
(Need subscription )This article explains Meaning of Pakistan in detail. The magazine is available in all major American book stores.
http://www.worldandi.com/current/index.shtml
http://www.worldandi.com/
Pakistan Versus the Last Superpower
Underestimated Pakistanis May Be a Degree Too Self-Confident
by Khalid Durán
http://www.worldandi.com/subscribers/2001/March/duran.cfm
(Need subscription )This article explains Meaning of Pakistan in detail. The magazine is available in all major American book stores.
http://www.worldandi.com/current/index.shtml
http://www.worldandi.com/
#579 Posted by Siraj on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
Aisha # something:
Jambo!
Nice story about Aunty Ruppinder. Tell me, does she know about your great love for Aurengzeb? Go ahead and tell her next time you see her on the bus, especially about how he slaughtered her ancestors and murdered her Guru`s for not bowing down to Mecca.
Then she will tell you what she REALLY thinks about you.... in beautiful poetic Urdu, no doubt, but also I hope with the finest Punjabi cursewords you deserve....oh heck, you know what they are....
Jambo!
Nice story about Aunty Ruppinder. Tell me, does she know about your great love for Aurengzeb? Go ahead and tell her next time you see her on the bus, especially about how he slaughtered her ancestors and murdered her Guru`s for not bowing down to Mecca.
Then she will tell you what she REALLY thinks about you.... in beautiful poetic Urdu, no doubt, but also I hope with the finest Punjabi cursewords you deserve....oh heck, you know what they are....
#578 Posted by Siraj on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
Ali1 the halal butcher # whatever...
Chowk have censored some of my posts to you as well. A real shame, because there was a real beauty about bai-ghairat Mohajirs getting shafted by Punjabis in the land of the pure. But I`m happy to resume this with you anytime at all.
bring it on...
Chowk have censored some of my posts to you as well. A real shame, because there was a real beauty about bai-ghairat Mohajirs getting shafted by Punjabis in the land of the pure. But I`m happy to resume this with you anytime at all.
bring it on...
#577 Posted by Siraj on March 26, 2001 1:31:47 pm
krashid#575:
Yes, Sita and Hanuman is a legend. Unlike a 50 year old man having sex with a 6 year old girl. Like you said, just leave it for God to decide.
And pray that you dont have any daughters.
Yes, Sita and Hanuman is a legend. Unlike a 50 year old man having sex with a 6 year old girl. Like you said, just leave it for God to decide.
And pray that you dont have any daughters.
#576 Posted by Eklavya on March 26, 2001 5:07:20 am
ahmadb # 566
Dear Professor Bilal,
You have written the following - in my opinion, very important - words. These relate to the most significant challenge both India and Pakistan face (again, you have rightly pointed that out too many times over): the task of turning ``nations in hope`` into ``nations in being.``
``In organized modern societies, one important first step in this struggle (to turn a ``nation in hope`` into a ``nation in being``) is to recognize the centrality of human dignity. A second major step is to figure out the ways and means to implement the citizenship and human rights of both individuals and collectivities. A third major step is to implement such rights.``
Some time later when it is convenient for you, I would like to explore this issue with you a little. There is one particular aspect that has confounded me for some time: can a non-trivial set of basic citizenship rights be sustained in the absence of a clearly enunciated, symmetrical, set of minimum responsibilities? Is not a system of guaranteed rights without offsetting responsibilities inherently unstable in the long run (unless we resort to assuming some kind of `goodness` of all human beings at all times - a not very plausible premise). Won`t there be all kinds of free-ridership problems? Why should citizen A support the free-ridership of citizen B?
Again, we will take this up only if, and when, you find time.
Regards.
Dear Professor Bilal,
You have written the following - in my opinion, very important - words. These relate to the most significant challenge both India and Pakistan face (again, you have rightly pointed that out too many times over): the task of turning ``nations in hope`` into ``nations in being.``
``In organized modern societies, one important first step in this struggle (to turn a ``nation in hope`` into a ``nation in being``) is to recognize the centrality of human dignity. A second major step is to figure out the ways and means to implement the citizenship and human rights of both individuals and collectivities. A third major step is to implement such rights.``
Some time later when it is convenient for you, I would like to explore this issue with you a little. There is one particular aspect that has confounded me for some time: can a non-trivial set of basic citizenship rights be sustained in the absence of a clearly enunciated, symmetrical, set of minimum responsibilities? Is not a system of guaranteed rights without offsetting responsibilities inherently unstable in the long run (unless we resort to assuming some kind of `goodness` of all human beings at all times - a not very plausible premise). Won`t there be all kinds of free-ridership problems? Why should citizen A support the free-ridership of citizen B?
Again, we will take this up only if, and when, you find time.
Regards.
#575 Posted by harimau on March 26, 2001 5:07:20 am
Ref krashid #: 575
[That was Ayesha RZAH well respected among Muslims as mother of Muslims.]
Why don`t YOU tell us about the succession battles after Muhammed died? Or we can get Islamic scholars like F_K, Asif Naqshbandi or Barrister Amer to tell us how most of Muhammed`s remaining family was slaughtered and Ayesha was accused of adultery.
Really, I don`t have time to search the Web for this kind of info but it was posted earlier on the Chowk.
You know, I really want you to abuse Hindu legends (with false information; Sita refused to be taken back home by Hanuman and waited for Ram to rescue her. She proved her chastity by entering a bonfire and coming out unscathed -- hence the movie `Fire` has a protoganist named Sita who survives a kitchen fire -- all subtle references that escape those who don`t know the legend of Sita) so that I can post factual information about Muhammed & Company for all of you to think about. That is, if you are capable of thinking.
[That was Ayesha RZAH well respected among Muslims as mother of Muslims.]
Why don`t YOU tell us about the succession battles after Muhammed died? Or we can get Islamic scholars like F_K, Asif Naqshbandi or Barrister Amer to tell us how most of Muhammed`s remaining family was slaughtered and Ayesha was accused of adultery.
Really, I don`t have time to search the Web for this kind of info but it was posted earlier on the Chowk.
You know, I really want you to abuse Hindu legends (with false information; Sita refused to be taken back home by Hanuman and waited for Ram to rescue her. She proved her chastity by entering a bonfire and coming out unscathed -- hence the movie `Fire` has a protoganist named Sita who survives a kitchen fire -- all subtle references that escape those who don`t know the legend of Sita) so that I can post factual information about Muhammed & Company for all of you to think about. That is, if you are capable of thinking.
#574 Posted by krashid on March 26, 2001 12:39:52 am
Sarwari #554
At your age my thoughts were same and I am pretty sure when I reach BAhmed`s age I will be thinking like him.
Karachi is not Pakistan for one thing. One feels too much affinity with Karachi not because of Pakistan but because of the culture of Karachi. Which has resisted the influence of so called Pakistan on Karachi. Whether it is movement against Ayub Khan, or Bhutto or Movement for restoration of democracy. Or whether it is resisting the operation clean-up.
And for this reason inspite of all efforts by so called Pakistan, Karachi has refused to be ethnisized.
So Karachi is not Pakistan and God-forbid that time when my city of birth and brought up becomes Pakistan. (Although rampant rangers and policemen are trying hard to make it into Pakistan)
At your age my thoughts were same and I am pretty sure when I reach BAhmed`s age I will be thinking like him.
Karachi is not Pakistan for one thing. One feels too much affinity with Karachi not because of Pakistan but because of the culture of Karachi. Which has resisted the influence of so called Pakistan on Karachi. Whether it is movement against Ayub Khan, or Bhutto or Movement for restoration of democracy. Or whether it is resisting the operation clean-up.
And for this reason inspite of all efforts by so called Pakistan, Karachi has refused to be ethnisized.
So Karachi is not Pakistan and God-forbid that time when my city of birth and brought up becomes Pakistan. (Although rampant rangers and policemen are trying hard to make it into Pakistan)
#573 Posted by krashid on March 26, 2001 12:39:52 am
Harimau #570
This is not India that whatever you can do in the name of democracy.
This is chowk.
Your posting is totally crap depicting you in it.
Don`t think the world is like you.
There is no evidence in history of the crap you are producing.
And rest of your opinions only depicts your attitude towards your own women probably.
So a widow in your thinking needs either to be burned or have illicit relationship.
That was Ayesha RZAH well respected among Muslims as mother of Muslims. In my family there are women who became widow in young age and are leading a life worth respect.
So are you denying Sita, Hanuman thing as crap? May be other Indians or Pakistani can help. I am totally unaware except in film I have seen people chanting. `Hanuman Ji Ki Jay. Bajrang Bali Ki Jay``
This is not India that whatever you can do in the name of democracy.
This is chowk.
Your posting is totally crap depicting you in it.
Don`t think the world is like you.
There is no evidence in history of the crap you are producing.
And rest of your opinions only depicts your attitude towards your own women probably.
So a widow in your thinking needs either to be burned or have illicit relationship.
That was Ayesha RZAH well respected among Muslims as mother of Muslims. In my family there are women who became widow in young age and are leading a life worth respect.
So are you denying Sita, Hanuman thing as crap? May be other Indians or Pakistani can help. I am totally unaware except in film I have seen people chanting. `Hanuman Ji Ki Jay. Bajrang Bali Ki Jay``
#572 Posted by krashid on March 26, 2001 12:39:52 am
Harimau #
Yaar Don`t make us laugh or make yourself a laughingstock.
Go send some soldiers to kill Kashmiris, Assamese and Manipuri.
Send some police to kill Muslims in Gujrat and Bombay.
Go burn soem churches and christians.
Don`t forget to manipulate census. These are essentials of demockeracy in India.
And also don`t forget to vote, because that is the only part of democracy in the biggest de-mockeracy of the world.
And rember to cast only one vote. Sometimes it is one man ten votes also in voting erroneously known as democracy.
Yaar Don`t make us laugh or make yourself a laughingstock.
Go send some soldiers to kill Kashmiris, Assamese and Manipuri.
Send some police to kill Muslims in Gujrat and Bombay.
Go burn soem churches and christians.
Don`t forget to manipulate census. These are essentials of demockeracy in India.
And also don`t forget to vote, because that is the only part of democracy in the biggest de-mockeracy of the world.
And rember to cast only one vote. Sometimes it is one man ten votes also in voting erroneously known as democracy.
#571 Posted by ylh on March 26, 2001 12:39:52 am
I just read that post 548, and I believe Mr Jay deserves an apology from me.
-YLH
-YLH
#570 Posted by PM on March 25, 2001 11:22:44 pm
Dear Yasser, re. #565
[The denouncement of Ahmedis in the passport application] is a collective pak decision, at the level of the govt. and approved by the highest [Sharia] court. At an individual level YOU ARE NOT responsible for this. Having said that, YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, read about Abdus Salaam and post an article on chowk about him. May be with all your influence at rutgers, constitute an award for the higest GPA pakistani, Abdus Salam Award. If you truly believe in secular ideals, dont just waste it on the chowk attacking chimera and illusions. Jay is a fantom that manifests as posts that you dont like, .... Learn to accept truth, damn the indians, damn the fantom, all of them. Just re-read your old post about your manifest destiny, I liked it. Dont squander a life.
regards and best wishes.
Now, since you haven`t read Jay`s posts on this board, you probably don`t know that the above are actually his words cut-and-pasted (Caps are mine).
You have said on numerous occassions how important the critics are for the establishment of a `new` Pakistan. I dare say Jay might be playing that role more effectively than anyone else. Once again, I encourage you to not dismiss his words out of hand (except, that is, when he is giving his opinion on Urdu :)). even if he is an enemy, there is a lot to learn about ourselves from our foes, wouldn`t you agree?
Besides, jay seems to deride the North Indians almost as much as Pakistan on occassion.
rgds,
PM
[The denouncement of Ahmedis in the passport application] is a collective pak decision, at the level of the govt. and approved by the highest [Sharia] court. At an individual level YOU ARE NOT responsible for this. Having said that, YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, read about Abdus Salaam and post an article on chowk about him. May be with all your influence at rutgers, constitute an award for the higest GPA pakistani, Abdus Salam Award. If you truly believe in secular ideals, dont just waste it on the chowk attacking chimera and illusions. Jay is a fantom that manifests as posts that you dont like, .... Learn to accept truth, damn the indians, damn the fantom, all of them. Just re-read your old post about your manifest destiny, I liked it. Dont squander a life.
regards and best wishes.
Now, since you haven`t read Jay`s posts on this board, you probably don`t know that the above are actually his words cut-and-pasted (Caps are mine).
You have said on numerous occassions how important the critics are for the establishment of a `new` Pakistan. I dare say Jay might be playing that role more effectively than anyone else. Once again, I encourage you to not dismiss his words out of hand (except, that is, when he is giving his opinion on Urdu :)). even if he is an enemy, there is a lot to learn about ourselves from our foes, wouldn`t you agree?
Besides, jay seems to deride the North Indians almost as much as Pakistan on occassion.
rgds,
PM
#569 Posted by harimau on March 25, 2001 11:22:44 pm
Why all this angst about what it means to be a Pakistani?
Isn`t it quite obvious?
All those who believed in democracy, one-man-one-vote, the power of the ballot over the bullet, and all such things stayed on in India.
The remainder (baki) went to Bakistan.
Isn`t it quite obvious?
All those who believed in democracy, one-man-one-vote, the power of the ballot over the bullet, and all such things stayed on in India.
The remainder (baki) went to Bakistan.