The Meaning of Pakistan

Dear Bilal,

I actually wrote a response to your peaceful solutions etc. but then changed it a bit and posted it on Omar Mirza`s board. What do you think? Let me know.

I too sometimes wish that the world and its people were at least as straight as a Jalaibee but it is a very complex world. Adopting just one approach to problems, in your case finding solutions in a peaceful way no matter what, simply doesnt cut. In order to grow a healthy crop, rodents and weeds must be destroyed or at least contained.

Pankaj

The ``weeds`` or ``rodents`` is the proper word instaed of insects. Just keep your head low when scythe will be swinging. Was that proper/regular Hindu speak or were you just immitating Sameeta Patel?

YLH

A regular visit to campus gym and good sleep will do you good. You`ve started seeing things that are not there. In some other sense it is healthy for man of your age but not in this sense.

Urstruly writes:

``As you have seen in #804 that an apparently logical person is trying to convince that derision is morally right.``

Whine, whine, whine. Urstruly, may I offer you some cheese to go with it?

tantralogician

PM

Will ya leave that poor guy alone :-). At least I am very grateful to him for warning me of the comming week apriori. Mujhe aisa prateet hota hai ki Kayamat hi toot padegi agle hafte. Abhee tak to woh pyar se puchkar bhar raha tha. Seems like a volcano is simmering somewhere ready to explode. Bhagwan ko bhee na jaane kya khurafat soojhi ki usne baysharam hinduon ko bana dala. Agar yeh baysharam hindu na hote to duniya mein kitna aman chain hota.Shayad bhagwan ke saath kuch aisa hua hoga ki pahle to bhagwan ne aadmee banaye jo musalmaan ban gaye. Phir usaiy kuch naali ke keedon par daya aa gayi aur usne unhen bhee insaan bana diya jo baad mein hindu ban gaye. Khair jaane do.

Pankaj-one-amongst-a-billion-of-God`s-wasteful creations.

Mr Urstruly,

Enough is Enough, you have no right to insult the minorities of Pakistan. They are our sacred trust. We made Pakistan to be free of religious subjugation not to oppress other minorities. I am afraid your actions are derogatory to the ideal of Pakistan.

Is this the Islam you talk about? We dont want such Islam!

-YLH

Sarwari,

Thanks for your support.

Sigalph,

In order to illustrate my point better, let us take the case of the US. In the US, the majority does not necessarily identify itself as Protestant christian, instead the problem in the US is racial.

In India and Pakistan, groups both minority and majority view themselves in religious terms, hence the solution has to be in those terms. I highly doubt that having affirmative action based on racial and color lines would be of any consequence in India, or Pakistan. The word you used was highly inappropriate, not to mention inherently contradictory, since it has more racial connotations than religious.

I have said it before and I ll say it again. The salvation of entire South Asia lies in the words of the greatest man produced by South Asia.

``You are free- You are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques, or anyother place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

IN time these angularities of the Majority community and minority community will vanish. The Hindus will cease to be Hindus and the Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in a religious sense but a political sense, and we shall become equal citizens of one state.Indeed if you ask me this has been the greatest obstacle in the path of India gaining freedom. If it wasnt for this, we would have been free many years ago.``

(Qaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah 11th August 1947)

Sigalph,

I think you have failed to grasp the gist of my argument.With all due respect the following were my points

1) We were talking WRT the atmosphere in India, in the pre-partition days. Who can deny that Hinduism and Islam were more than religions for people, and that people aligned themselves according to these two civilizational concepts. That continues to hold true.

2) The ideal situation is ``You may belong to any religion caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state. In time the Hindu Community will vanish and the Muslim Community will vanish and we shall all become equal citizens of one state.`` How do we get to that position, both in India and Pakistan?

3) The RSS and Hinduvtist leader supported the one man one vote democracy. Why? Because that meant perpetual Hinduvtist Hegemony not secularism.

4) Apartheid is a rather harsh word, representation according to groups that distinguish themselves as groups, whether on the basis of religion or anything else is necessary. It is according to the UN Charter, a basic Human right.

5) A state like Pakistan with 3% minorities should do the following...

a) Establish Joint electorates.

b) Yet also give additional representation to minorities for affirmative action.. Christian Minority, Hindu Minority, all religious minorities,

women, and greater representation for smaller provinces.

c) This provision should be taken out of the constitution at a point when the Minorities in Pakistan feel that they have reached the Economic and political level of parity...

6) The word apartheid has been misused in this context, since South African Aparthied had other connotations not to mention it was on racial grounds. When a minority religious or not, in order to safeguard its rights demands representation, I highly doubt that is ``apartheid``, that is affirmative action.

7) By using the word ``apartheid`` you have considerably damaged my argument, eventhough it doesnot apply to what I was talking about. Just see half witted truth pick up on this.

8) The All India Muslim League demand to have parity at the center is analagous to affirmative action... Minorities cannot enforce apartheids, Majorities do that.

9) It is hardly fair to apply ``one set of value system`` across the board. Like Jinnah said ``Fur coat of Canada is not suitable for India``.

-YLH

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 819)
Dear Urstruly:

Prof. Bilal is too formal. Please call me Bilal, Bilal Sahib, or Bilalji.

I didn’t lump Hindutva and Jihadi/Political Islam together. I wrote: “I believe that both Hindutva and Jihadi/Political Islam are not only misplaced ideologies but reinforcing and reproducing each other.” Please note, my focus was on “misplaced”, “reinforcing”, and “reproducing”.

As a Pakistani, I believe that most of our troubles are internal and the state of India and many, if not most, Indians are taking advantage of our internal difficulties. My solution is to deal with our internal problems. Once we successfully engage in this process, many, if not most Indians, and the state of India will be automatically forced/inclined to revise their unfriendly and adversarial attitude toward Pakistan.

Kashmir is a major bone of contention between India and Pakistan. I support the right of self-determination of the people(s) of Jammu and Kashmir. I would also like to see this problem resolved. However, there is a major difference between our ways of dealing with this or any other political problem. You seem to believe in quick fixes without realizing the costs and consequences of various strategies. It also seems that every failed attempt to resolve the issues at hand simply enhances your frustration. I, in contrast, want to solve the political problems politically – slowly, gradually, peacefully, amicably, intelligently, honorably and with minimum possible damage/destruction.

And lastly, tell me how could I open up my mind and what do you want me to look around me? By the way, I am a geographer who is trained to look around from the level of an individual to the level of the globe.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Prof. Bilal

I disagree both with your perception and approach-but the point still is, can we show our disagreement and not the derision? As you have seen in #804 that an apparently logical person is trying to convince that derision is morally right. If that is their morality then we are in deep trouble-then everything that Pakistan stands for or it has stood for since its birth is morally correct and superior.

I also do not approve of your approach of lumping Hindutva and Jihadism together-It is the most dishonest thing you will ever do intellectually-plz open up your mind and look around.

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 809)
Dear Urstruly:

Your statement: “Please check # 804-see what I mean. That is why we need a Grim Reaper with a very sharp scythe. It is too bad that some of the good crop also gets cut everytime scythe moves to cut the weed.”

My reply: Urstruly, if I want I could collect and compile volumes showing examples of transgressions by both Indians and Pakistanis (particularly Muslims and Hindus) toward each other.

I have never denied that some segments of both Indians and Pakistanis people are intensely obsessed with hatred for and malice toward the others. Unfortunately, the number is continuously increasing with the passage of time. I, however, am not prepared to entertain the view that all evilness lies only in the domain of the “Other”. Those who propagate such views – whether Muslims, Hindus, etc. – can never win my favor/approval/sympathy.

I want all Pakistanis (particularly Muslim Pakistanis) to realize their own weaknesses and to figure out ways and means to overcome them. By concentrating our efforts on education and human development we need to produce a new generation of gifted Pakistanis who are not only the citizens of Pakistan but also the citizens of the World. In this race, India has definitely left us behind. This, however, does not mean that the Indians adequately understand their own internal/domestic weaknesses, especially in matters concerning the treatment of minorities.

Urstruly, if I were you, I will not waste my energies on issues that are not likely to help me as a Pakistani, as a South Asian, or as a citizens of the World. I believe that both Hindutva and Jihadi/Political Islam are not only misplaced ideologies but reinforcing and reproducing each other. If there is some merit in my position, all decent Hindus and Muslims must keep distance from them in the greater interest of well over 1 billion (predominantly impoverished) South Asians around the World.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

ylh

I second Sarwari`s # 811. I think it is time that Hindu-stanis get down of their high horse of assuming themselves goddamned Romans. A little jostle will help them.

Pervert Masih

I am glad that you decided to join in the discussion.

Tantra #811 to Urstruly:

``Suit yourself, dummy. Insofar as I visit Chowk (which is not very often) I never stop by to read your doodle. In fact, I hadn`t heard of you until I saw you referenced in Bilal Ahmad`s remonstrations. Now go home and change your nappies.``

Hush now, Tantra.. We don`t want to discourage this chap too much... He`s promised us another serving of his comedic observations in a week or so... Now, just becoz *you * get your kicks elsewhere, please don`t rob us 9-to-5ers the opportunity of witnessing more foot-in-mouth antics. Or are you forgetting the comic relief he provided the last time he `attacked` gays and Christians?

hmmmm.... maybe he and F_K can team up for an Odd couple kinda performance... *that * would be a real laugh, wouldn`t it?

rgds,

PM

Reply to #808

Urstruly wrote:

``I have a method to get the point across. I mimic.``

And may I say you are an excellent mimic. Any retarded orangutan will fall for you as one of their own.

``You will see about in a week what I mean. And what I am gonna do,doesnt need any literary qualification-we will see who will groan and whine then.``

Suit yourself, dummy. Insofar as I visit Chowk (which is not very often) I never stop by to read your doodle. In fact, I hadn`t heard of you until I saw you referenced in Bilal Ahmad`s remonstrations. Now go home and change your nappies.

tantralogician

THE NATION: SIMI

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010402/nationa.shtml

Rooted In Muslim Antipathy

What makes SIMI the most dreaded emerging acronym on India`s internal security landscape? The group is not new. Founded on April 25, 1977, in Aligarh, SIMI is headquartered in a tiny two-storeyed building in Zakir Nagar, a ghetto in otherwise plush south Delhi. Intelligence reports available with india today suggest that over the years, particularly since 1991, SIMI has grown into a secretive, cadre-based organisation with one overriding agenda-jehad.

Like the Taliban-which too began as a students` movement-it is rooted in Muslim antipathy to ``degenerate`` western ideas. It opposes ``democracy`` and ``secularism`` with the same ease with which it supports Kashmiri terrorists. Live speeches-the product of a telephone hooked on to a public address system-by such demagogues as Qazi Hussain, the Jamait-e-Islami chief in Pakistan, and Sheikh Mohammed Yasin, leader of the pan-Islamic Palestinian group Hamas, are heard at its conferences. When SIMI`s Madhya Pradesh wing sent two ``social workers`` to assist quake-relief efforts in Gujarat, both were arrested as ``dangerous elements``.



INFAMY AND AGONY: Posters showing the Quran being burnt appeared in Kanpur before the violence, serving SIMI`s purpose

Young by definition, a SIMI member has to be below 30. Full membership-the status of an Ansar-is granted after a careful assessment of the applicant`s knowledge of Islam and his-and occasionally her-willingness to lead an austere and regimented lifestyle.

Scrutiny, in fact, is so strict that over the past 24 years SIMI has been able to build a core of only 500 Ansars. Apart from the elite Ansars, there are some 10 lakh SIMI members all over India (see graphic). Recruitment is ruthless business. ``It is not easy to become a member of our organisation. Not everyone can practise what we preach,`` says Safdar Nagori, SIMI`s articulate secretary-general (see interview).

The first case against SIMI was registered on January 11, 1991 at Delhi`s Jama Masjid police station. It followed a speech by Ziauddin Siddiqui, then SIMI`s secretary-general, that was ``rabidly anti-Hindu``, and ``peppered with anti-national sentiments``. The trend persists and the Intelligence Bureau dossier on SIMI is decidedly bulky.

For instance, on January 8, 1997, at a SIMI convention in Aligarh chief guest Syed Ali Shah Gilani-then secretary-general of the All Party Hurriyat Conference-posited Islam`s global unity against ``meaningless`` nationalism, which was held responsible for atrocities on Muslims. The convention had been organised by Abdul Mubeen, then secretary of SIMI`s Aligarh Muslim University unit. Mubeen was arrested a year ago, charged with engineering bomb blasts in Agra, Faizabad and Kanpur just before the then US president Bill Clinton`s visit to India.



CRY FROM THE PAST: A SIMI poster evokes Ghazni on the Babri issue

SIMI`s politics is centred on a deft exploitation of a community`s insecurities, real or imagined. The Musalmaan, goes one SIMI line, is ``exploited everywhere, even in the 52 countries where Muslims rule``. Indian symbols are a particularly favourite target. On September 6, 1998, SIMI President Shahid Badr Falahi announced in Kanpur that the national song, Vande Mataram, was an open attack on Islam. ``Singing it would be a disgrace,`` he declared.

At conferences held in 1999 at Ujjain, Aurangabad, Kanpur and Malappuram, SIMI leaders openly called for a jehad to establish an Islamic state in India. Among SIMI`s heroes are billionaire Saudi bankroller of terrorism Osama bin Laden, Maulana Masood Azhar and the hijackers of the Indian Airlines flight ic-814 to Kandahar. SIMI`s list of villains ranges from the usual suspects, Vajpayee and Home Minister Lal Krishna Advani, to Sonia Gandhi, and the CPI(M)`s H.S. Surjeet. Right or left, yellow or pink, it doesn`t matter. If you are Indian, you are satanic. Fraternal ties exist with the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Hizb-ul Mujahideen, two of the biggest terrorist groups in Jammu and Kashmir. When it`s not glorifying Mahmud of Ghazni`s sack of the Somnath temple a millennium ago, SIMI is observing ``Chechnya Day`` in protest against the Russian Government`s assault on separatist Muslims.

The foreign links are more material too. SIMI is generously funded by ``well wishers`` in Iran, Libya, the Gulf emirates, particularly the Riyadh-based World Assembly of Muslim Youth and the Kuwait-based International Islamic Federation of Students` Organisations. Other overseas friends of SIMI are the Consultative Committee of Indian Muslims (Chicago) and various student wings of the Jamait in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nepal. Says ACP Rajbir Singh of Delhi Police (special cell), which monitors SIMI`s activities in the capital: ``Its links with hardcore militant groups make SIMI the potential No. 1 enemy within.``

Back in Kanpur-where local Muslims on their part are upset with the ``partisan role`` of the Provincial Armed Constabulary-security agencies are not concerned merely with SIMI`s ``potential``. They are talking of the clear and present danger.

re truth and ylh

Comparing the US Senate with India`s system is tempting yet full of pitfalls intellectually. For starters, the Senate is a co-equal branch of the federal legislature which in itself is a co-equal branch of the federal govt. The senate of 2 per state is balanced by a house with proportional representation. The basic difference is a highly sophisticated system of checks and balances both horizontally(at state vs fed level) and vertically (within the fed govt). India`s Rajya Sabha may someday aspire to be a senate but both the represenation system and its dignified second class status may have to change. As for religion based represenatation, there is a name for that: apartheid. Only one country of any consequence use to practise that.