The Meaning of Pakistan

YLH, re: Reply #: 805

I wish I had more time to break down your post to analyze your great intelligence, in short...AWESOME!

:)

Aisha Sarwari

INTERVIEW: SAFDAR NAGORI

``I Am Very Bitter About Being An Indian``

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010402/nation2.shtml

Safdar Nagori, SIMI`s secretary-general, spelt out his group`s agenda to principal correspondent Sayantan Chakravarty:



``We have no regard for Nehru, Gandhi... Osama has shown great character.``

Q. Are you aware the Government is keeping a watch on SIMI?

A. Yes, we are. But it is expected of this Government, isn`t it?

Q. A line on your calendar says that ``Jehad is our Path``. Can you elaborate?

A. Let me explain the concept of jehad as detailed in the Quran. It is not when an individual is harmed but when an entire community finds itself collectively persecuted that the cry for jehad is given. There are various stages. You raise your voice. Protest democratically. Warn. If nothing works then one is forced to

revolt, take to arms.

Q. So what stage of jehad do you find yourself at?

A. When the Muslim voice is muffled, when we are fired upon and killed, like at Kanpur, when you find the Sangh Parivar making statements that the mandir will be built by March 2002 at Ayodhya, then I can say Muslims will not take it lying down. And I am not too sure of the consequences.

Q. But the Government is not being run by the RSS.

A. Of course it is. Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s statement that ``I am a swayamsevak`` has left no doubt in the minds of the Muslims. At times he seems to be shedding tears for the Babri episode but they are only crocodile tears.

Q. SIMI is known to launch vitriolic attacks against Indian leaders. Why?

A. We Muslims, and not just SIMI, do not recognise leaders as ideals. There is only one true Lord, one true Ideal.

Q. Can you elaborate?

A. When we are told that there is a rashtrapita in Gandhi, and another great statesman in Nehru, we feel it is a direct attack on our fundamentals. Nehru wanted Muslims to recognise Ghulam Ahmed Qadaini as our Prophet. He was forcing us to alter our religious belief and we have no regard for such a man. Also, Gandhi is not our greatest ideal by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is Indira Gandhi.

Q. So what is your agenda. Is it to Islamise India?

A. Look, we have respect for the practitioners of other religions. As true Muslims, we always will. But at the same time our aim is to propagate the Quran`s tenets. This will be done even among non-Muslims but there will be no coercion. It`s not like you want everybody to sing Vande Mataram.

Q. You seem bitter at being Indian.

A. Yes. Very bitter. Even in Jerusalem where the atrocities on Muslims have been like in no other part of the world, the main mosque, Masjid-e-Aksa, is still intact. At Ayodhya, sadly, it isn`t. They use rubber bullets to keep protesters at bay in Israel, here they kill Muslims, like in Kanpur.

Q. In your conferences you have openly eulogised Osama bin Laden.

A. Not once, but dozens of times. We believe that he has shown great character in standing up to the Americans, the biggest terrorists in the world. The US made allegations that he was behind the embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam, but we know that Osama had no hand in them.

Q. But he does support the ISI`s terrorist activities in India.

A. Incorrect. The ISI is different. Osama has no links with the ISI. His enemy no. 1 is not India, but the US.

Q. At SIMI meetings speeches of Qazi Hussain, the Jamait-e-Islami chief in Pakistan, are played. Why?

A. We link up with him in Pakistan through phones and the speeches are amplified for the audience. The Qazi wants us to take Islam to non-Muslims.

Q. Is SIMI`s presence in the north stronger than in the south?

A. We are everywhere, as strong in Kerala and Maharashtra as we are in Delhi and Uttar Pradesh. Even Assam.

Q. Where do you see your agenda taking you?

A. We are not interested in focusing on leaves and branches. We are interested in changing things at the roots. In the world`s largest democracy there must be open ideological discussions and not just false propaganda. Our madarsas are not nurseries of terror.

Prof. Bilal

Please check # 804-see what I mean. That is why we need a Grim Reaper with a very sharp scythe. It is too bad that some of the good crop also gets cut everytime scythe moves to cut the weed.

Tantralogician

I have a method to get the point across. I mimic. You will see about in a week what I mean. And what I am gonna do,doesnt need any literary qualification-we will see who will groan and whine then.

I think the fact that the 8th Amendment has been brought back into the Pakistani Constitution, suggests a possible career switch on the part of Musharaf, to possibly adopting the position of the President of Pakistan.

-YLH

PAKISTANI CONSTITUTION

I am reproducing a letter by a Pakistan citizen, Nowsherwan G. Irani, who I think is a Parsi (Dawn, April 1, 2001). I tend to agree with him with one qualification. It think, it is not enough to allow the politicians/legislators “only” to devise a constitution. Once the politicians/legislators agree on a constitution, it must be given to a Federal Constitutional Commission for review based upon thorough public deliberation – on radio, tv, newpapers, and other important forums (such as schools, colleges, and universities). After such a review, the legislators/politicians should give a final form to the Constitution which must be ratified by a two-third majority of all provincial assemblies and then by the National/Federal Assembly and the National/Federal Senate. Comments welcome!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Crisis of leadership

The introductory remarks of Hameed Maker of Helpline Trust, as reproduced by Ardeshir Cowasjee in his column (March 25) unfortunately shows our obsession with finding a leader with ``proven character traits, principles, honest values, a code of conduct and ethics``.

Unfortunately in the real world a person with such angelic traits would fail as a leader, especially in a democratic society. In the words of Chamlong Spimuang of Thailand (a general turned politician), ``Honesty isn`t enough. You have to solve problems too. Otherwise you could just ask the Monks to run for political office.``

Democracy is a system and leaders of democracy are moulded in the furnace of public opinion and self-interests of the powers that be. Politics is the game of the possible and a political leader living in the real world must be the master of compromise. One who can differentiate between real pressure and bluff, who can accept half a loaf instead of no bread, who understands the centres of power and how to harness the power of the legislators, the intellectuals and the armed forces.

Our undisputed leader Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah could have given a constitution to Pakistan but, instead, he chose to trust politicians, to make their compromises and agree to a constitution.

George Washington was the undisputed leader after he won the war against England and could have declared himself a king and given his nation a constitution. Instead he put the politicians to prepare a constitution on the basis of the declaration of independence. This constitution has held together a disparate nation for over 200 years.

I am sure we are not looking for a dynasty of Bhuttos or Sharifs. We did not even give them 5 years to complete their terms of office. Then we have had Ayub and Zia who each gave us their own democratic constitutions which ended as epitaphs on their gravestones. We even have our versions of the Thai monks, who are waiting on the sidelines to give us a constitution.

We must look for leaders (legislators in a democracy) who are practical individuals representing a cross-section of interests, representing each divisions of each province, look them up in the National Assembly, provide them food, water and sleeping bags and let them hammer out a constitution which cannot be changed until it is agreed to by two-thirds of each provincial assembly, plus at least 51% of the voting public in a referendum. 54 years of this merry-go-round must stop.

We must stop looking for that Angelic leader. Opinion makers like Helpline should do their homework and then propagate a practical leadership solution.

NOWSHERWAN G. IRANI, Karachi

(UN) truth,

1) USA was a homogenously Christian White country when it was formed. The Minority and Majority relations were based on states, and their representation. People will were virginians etc etc. In India, affiliations were along the line of Hindu and Muslim. Anyone who denies this is a liar, a fool and person devoid of any intelligence.

By simpifying my argument and distorting it, you have only added to your own mischieviously Hindu Non-Secular Character.

2) Two senators per state rule is analagous to equal representation of Muslims and HIndus at the center, not of Two Nation Theory.

3) It is the truth that if anyone echoed Jefferson, it was Jinnah, not some Hindu Leader.

4) Savarkar had said, that by ensuring one man one vote you will ensure Hindu Hegemony over the Muslims in India. He propose to ``tyrannize`` the Muslim Majority.

5) It will be analagous to suggest that a densely populated state like NJ, California, or New York get senators according to their population... thereby New York California and NJ populations would effectively tyrannize the minority states....

6) A person devoid of any intelligence like yourself will still jump up and down but not try to understand what I am trying to say.

7) Kindly dont fool the people by calling yourself secular... You are only secular because ``Indian Secular Democracy`` helps perpetuate continuous Hindu Hegemony.

-YLH

Reply to #795

Urstruly wrote:

``How could it be that it is so hard to find a single Hindu soul who wouldnt take cheap shots at every ideal that we hold dear.``

tantralogician says:

If one is to conduct a fruitful dialogue it helps to momentarily see the world through the eyes of the adversary. You have justifiably taken umbrage at what you perceive to be slights against the Muslims by the Hindus you have encountered. Now I ask you to step into the Hindu`s shoes. Every ideal the Hindu holds dear - material, religious, philosophical - has been shat upon by the Muslims. And I am not talking cheap shots here. I am talking real destruction. There is historical evidence aplenty if only you would read. But I doubt you read much since you seem to spend most of your time meeting ``indecent`` Hindus. Even in the present times there is abundant Islamic literature that denigrates and distorts Hindu history and religious ideas. Hindus could just as well argue that now that the tables have been turned the Muslims can do no better than whine and groan. Hindus have now learnt not to lie down and play dead. Perhaps that is what bothers you.

Urstruly:

``They did not even hesitate a slight bit when I become face to face with them even when I tell them that I am a Muslim and Pakistani and you could just imagine when I present myself to them as a non-Muslim or a Quadani or a liberal.``

tantralogician says: It is now clear that you live in a world of fantasy. Quadianias have nothing to fear from Hindus. But they have every reason to fear their fellow Pakistani Sunni Muslim who has declared them persona non grata. The disgraceful treatment accorded Professor Abdus Salam by Pakistan is known to all. As an aside, let me add that the record for the greatest number of Muslims killed in one strike is held by the Land of the Pure - a strike rate better than Hitler even! Sorry, you will have to read up on the details yourself. Hint: 1971, in an area then called East Pakistan.

Urstruly:

``Sometimes I wonder, how could He the almighty be so cruel to waste 1 billion of humanity in such a way. Is the documentry evidence at Chowk is not enough for you. Just role back last 800 posts and find that out yourself. And you dont even need to put yourself in our shoes. Do it by being honest for just next half an hour.``

tantralogician says: For someone who complains about cheap shots you seem to revel in them. You perhaps get a cheap thrill out of them but Urstruly dear, your rants cut no ice whatsoever. Your writing has no intellectual force. You may have your motley band of admirers on Chowk but that is as far as you will ever get.

tantralogician

Anybody who argues that the two-nation theory was equivalent to 2 senators per state is either a liar or a fool or both.

If Jefferson & Sarvakar have used the same words, does that make Jefferson illegitimate? I have read a lot more about Jefferson & Lincoln than Sarvarkar (primarily because I have read zero of Savarkar - I say this neither with pride, nor regret - its just a fact)

Renaming of a town by its residents to reflect their belief of the religious history of the place is not immoral.

You have to read one post of Urstruly to know what he is all about - dont worry about spending half an hour on chowk to decide what ALL Hindus are all about. Spend two seconds on his post and you`ll know what he is all about. Same with a lot of other people.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 785)
Dear Fuzair:

Thanks! I see in you a person with great potential. You indeed are well-read, and you could be an extremely useful contributor on the Chowk as a Pakistani (and a citizen of the World).

Humanization of the human beings is a great necessity of our time. Conflicts abound in precapitalist traditional and modern-postmodern capitalist societies. I don’t foresee that the humanization process, even if carried to its limit, will bring an end to conflicts between individuals, neighborhoods, communities, nationalities, nation-states and state-nations, and supranational alliances. The humanization process, I think, will make it easy for us to understand each others difficulties and find peaceful and amicable ways to reduce them.

Let us hope that you, I, and many others make some contribution for the uplift of humanity through our rhetoric, our writings, and our actions.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 788)
Dear Urstruly:

Thanks for your kind words. Since you mentioned, let me tell you that I have mixed feelings for you. You are intelligent, sharp, and knowledgeable, but I find some of your ways unpalatable (particularly your Doctor Jackyl/Mr. Hyde role).

Urstruly, you maintain that you “never ever met a decent Hindu in [your] . . . whole life after so many years of interaction with them.” You also maintain that you and I “have to live with this fact”. First, your experiences are your experience, and my experiences are mine (and I don’t have to live with the fact of your experiences). Second, I have the honor of knowing a good number of very decent Indians (mostly Hindus). Despite my cordial relations with them, I don’t necessarily agree with them on numerous religious and political issues. Third, Indians and Pakistanis are socialized in somewhat different worlds. Hence, most Indians and Pakistanis tend to believe in what their national leaders, their official discourses, and their print media tells them. We really lack good critical scholarship that is not narrowly bounded by the political boundaries. Fourth, and finally, both Indians and Pakistanis need to shun parochialism to decolonize their minds, bodies and spirits (and thus emancipate and empower themselves) to see clearly around them.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

re farangikush 784

It is this kind of suave defense of lawlessness that has made Muslims the target of so much derision in many Western circles. You advocate drawing back to the barbarianism of medieval times when the only law was the law of the jungle(I mean the desert). The results of sowing so much poison are such that makes me balieve that your kind is in cahoots with the KKK, the Pat Robertsons, and the Austrian Nazis. Nobody could have harmed the image of Muslims in the world so much as has been done by the `educated` defenders of Islamist lawlessness.

Listen very carefully: the night is turning and the day is neigh. Pakistan may follow Afghanistan but that would be it. We will not let that cancer of hatred and terror spread. And guess what, the United States has a new president who is not afraid to strike forcefully at those who want to create a world where the law of the jungle prevails. Remember the great Hazrat Ronald Reagan who taught the Mad Dog of the Middle East a lesson?

The 100th, and the 500th posts were mine, I hope the 800th post will be mine too :)

YLH

Congrats Aisha, 800 posts :)

Indeed, a lot of what Urstruly says, has been my personal experience but that doesnot mean that one should generalize.

Its time all communities, nations and states of the subcontinent learnt to respect each other.

-Pakistan Zindabad

In response to PM (Reply # 792)
Dear Patrick:

One of my former boss (Head of Geography Department, University of Karachi) once told a young, but zealous, lecturer: “No one is indispensable.” The young man disagreed, in his mind, but remained quite out of share respect. During the past 35 years or so, he often thought about what his boss and former teacher had said to him. Today, he agrees with him. Now you know, that young lecturer was no one but me. So, Bilal Ahmad is not indispensable. If I go, somebody else may come and do the needful.

I am thankful to you for your kind sentiments toward me. As a Pakistani, I wish that we Pakistanis learn to think and act as decent, educated, and respectable Pakistanis. The everyday lives of Pakistanis are tied with the lives of other South Asians (as well as other citizens of the World). Hence, we need to figure out ways through which we ensure that our march toward progress and prosperity is not hampered by silly, unnecessary, and unwarranted antagonisms. My message to the Indian friends is the same.

I am not calling for an utopia. I am simply asking for discretion, intelligence and creativity. The fortunate (educated and better off) Indians and Pakistanis, at least, need to use the language of friendship and wisdom, call for peaceful and amicable resolution of various conflicts, and make every possible effort to appeal to all those who are relatively moderate and sensible in their ordinary lives and worldviews and who could be persuaded to make this world a better place for all of us. I not so naive to believe that this task is easy.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Patrick, you are most welcome to write to me at: bahmad@chowk.com. Maybe we could chat about our Karachi days.