The Meaning of Pakistan

Ref: Mohajir: ``Muslims in India``

Its no surprise to see the only real hard line response is from a person living in Canada.

Ive seen this phenomena time and time again its the people most divorced from reality on the ground that advocate (and fund) the most extreme opininons.

Ref ylh:

Could you expand more on your response to ``Truth``

particularly the phrase:

``Hinduvtastic Designs on the Sovereign states like Bangladesh.``

Re: ylh #738

Why does it surprise you that some people see themselves as Bengali first and Muslim/Hindu next?

ylh, in spite of what you say against the mullahcracy, you are a captive of the same whether you like it or not. You will never understand the Bengali who seeks an identity beyond that of the religion. Beyond that of arabic syllables. Beyond that of religious identities. Please do not try to comment upon what you do not understand.

Your genealogy is limited to tracing fancy ancestors who preached islam in Kashmir. Have you ever thought of taking pride in an ancestor who has done something for the soil? Some one who one can be proud of in the human sense of the term and not in some converter mumbo-jumbo? `

Please limit your posts to what you understand about people in your part of the world and don`t try to impute what others think and act on. Bengalis are definitely not your cup of tea

Best regards and keep off

Harimau,

Its a known fact, though you might be ignorant of it considering your imagined misgivings about Pakistan, that the ``Islamist/fundamentalist`` element symbolized by Majlis-e-Ahrar and Jamiat-e-ulema-e-Hind were in alliance with the Congress Party, and not the Muslim League.

Pakistan was made by the Indo-Muslim equivalent of Zionists... not the Maulvis and Maulanas who your Maulana Azad had won over to the Congress side.

Your knowledge of Islamic History, the History of the Pakistan Movement, and about General History is rather skewed.

Let me give you an example... How many Muslim Female Pakistani International Students do I know who wear the Hijab? None!

How many Muslim Female Indian International Students do I know who DONT wear the Hijab? None!

Let us face it, as noticed by writers like Patrick French, Ayesha Jalaal etc, the extreme right religious element of the Muslims, who have never enjoyed any support amongst the Muslim Masses, were in alliance with Gandhi jee...

Another example of this is that none of Religious parties have ever won any convincing victory, or for that matter any victory in Pakistani Elections.

Kindly read more, or keep quiet.

YLH

Brat,

Dont be brat, and refrain from assuming. Chowk staff did change the order of my posts and deleted one very essential post... thereby creating a lot of confusion.

Bong Dong,

Had you read, I had merely asked you to put a lid on your territorial ambitions.... I donot wish India balkanization. However, it is inherent to Indian mentality to create mischief. So then let it be... lets see who wins... Sure two can play at this game!

To those who are giving supporters of ``Akhand Bharat`` and the supoots of ``Bharat mata`` a benefit of a doubt, let us not forget that their intentions have little to do with ``secularism`` upon which India is a big red blot of blood... a bloody Bindia...

I ask you what is the emotional attachment of the so called ``Secularist`` Hindus with one Unified India? Isnt it their religion which creates that link? United India, an aberration, exists only in two places... in the annals of History of the British Raj, and in Hindu Mythology.

Plus the commitment of these ``new flagbearers of Secularism`` ... this Aryasamaaj which has oppressed humanity in the name of Ram etc for 3000 years.. is questionable! Is it any wonder that Dalits burn Lord Rama in effigy? Is it any wonder that Ravana is actually a hero amongst the depressed classes?

ACCEPT THE SOVEREIGN STATUS OF THE NATIONS THE WAY THEY ARE... ONLY MUTUAL ACCEPTANCE IS GOING TO CREATE A BRAVE NEW WORLD... NOT FANTASTIC CHIMERAS OF A GREAT HINDU KINGDOM !

Pakistan and Bangladesh will live on till eternity!

Pakistan Zindabad!

YLH #734, 732

You need a break. slow down. I know it`s exam time, go take a walk instead of torturing your eyes in front of the monitor, and misreading and making lists of people who are targeting you.

Brat

YLH #734, 732

You need a break. slow down. I know it`s exam time, go take a walk instead of torturing your eyes in front of the monitor, and misreading and making lists of people who are targeting you.

Brat

Ref ylh #: 725

[I have devised a new slogan list... as per Woodrow Wilson`s Doctrine of Self Determination ...

Long Live Independent Tamil Nadu]

I am given to understand by folks in Tamil Nadu that a local politician (a former chief minister, no less) is floating a map of a `Greater Tamil Home`. It is supposed to include Northern Sri Lanka, Singapore and - Aisha Sarwari should love this - Silicon Valley on the basis that we have a whole lot of Tamil speaking IT guys hanging around there.

About Hyderabad, you know, you should give up this obsession. The last unreconstructed Islamists there left for Pakistan in 1948 where they peddle their anti-India bullshit which suckers like you lap up.

I am only surprised you missed out on Junagadh in your list.

Re: Fuzair, and sigalph235

Ladies/Gentlemen:

An apology is due you. It was a sincere question I asked. If I was guilty of anything, it was laziness. I could have looked it up in any web browser. So I am sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way.

May you as a nation have the strength and resources to keep religion and politics in their separate domains.

DG

Responses to ``Muslims in India`` article in The Friday Times

Muslims in India

Sir,

This is with reference to Taimur Bandey`s article ``To be a Muslim in India`` (TFT March 16-22). Being a Punjabi, I first came in contact with Indian Muslims when I went to study in Bhopal. My Muslim friends would see me as a fellow ``minority`` and talk freely with me. Generally speaking, they had a disdain for Hindus and a love for Pakistan. If there was an India-Pakistan cricket match, we would know Pakistan had won because firecrackers would burst in our mohalla.

In spite of the 1984 Sikh massacre, I love my country. I wish the Muslims in my country who chose to stay on after partition would show India the same love.

Amarjeet S. Rumdhil, New Delhi.

Muslims in India II

Sir,

In ``To be a Muslim in India`` (TFT March 16 - 22), Taimur Bandey rightly concludes that the problems of Muslims living on either side of the border are the same. However, he is either naive or he deliberately misrepresents the facts when he makes statements which imply that Muslims live in mortal fear of Hindus, without any recourse.

As an Indian Muslim, I can safely say that in India, Muslims are as empowered as they are in any other democratic society. Despite their vast majority, Hindus are much more secular and tolerant than Pakistani Muslims, who cannot even tolerate the existence of different sects within Islam.

Moreover, I would like Mr. Bandey to enlighten me as to how Pakistanis have benefited from partition. Pakistan is not really a homeland for the subcontinent`s Muslims, since Indian Muslims are now barred from entering. Pakistan is not even a haven for those who inhabit it - Ahmadis are not allowed to call themselves Muslims, and Shias have to pray at home in order to avoid attack. It is a Muslim state that has done more harm than good to the interests of the subcontinent`s Muslims.

I have no doubt that as the years go by, Pakistanis will realise that their brethren across the border are better off and more progressive than themselves. Hindu hard-liners will still exist, but there will be a secular majority to keep them in check. We, the Muslims of India, do not need Pakistan to fight for our rights. We can take care of ourselves.

Arif Sayed, Mirzapur, Uttar Pradesh.

Sorry state

Muslims in India III

Sir,

Taimur Bandey`s ``To be a Muslim in India`` (TFT March 16 - 22) made interesting reading, especially for a Muslim from India.

The author`s observations of the obvious betray pre-disposed notions and a lack of knowledge. He has seen what he wanted to see, not what is, and ignored what is beneath the surface.

It was refreshing to see that the writer did not look down upon the Muslims of India, who are often in a wretched state due to no fault of their own. They have been ignored by their leadership. The creation of Pakistan was never supposed to mean that India`s Muslims would be left to the vultures.

On the whole, I appreciate the article. What is best about it is that Mr. Bandey does not degenerate into self-congratulatory mode, removing his self-doubt by looking at the plight of others. I`d like to see more where that came from.

Syed Burhan Qadri, Jeddah.

So be it

Muslims in India IV

Sir,

Taimur Bandey`s ``To be a Muslim in India`` (TFT March 16-22) is one of the better and more objective pieces on the subject that I have read.

I do have one objection. I could not understand his observation that you have to go to India to see why partition happened. If he means that Muslims are subjected to unnecessary hardship (by the state or their countrymen) then I must disagree.

The problem with India`s Muslims is that they do not want to be part of the mainstream. Every Indian citizen is divested with equal rights and has the same duties towards the Indian state. Most Muslims are ignorant of either their rights or their duties. The majority give more weight to what the local clergy says, and more often than not they are asked to resist anything that the mullah feels is detrimental to his influence. By this practice, Muslims undermine our nation and perpetuate their disenfranchisement.

Other communities do not have such a negative approach towards operating in a pluralist society. Mr. Bandey may have found that other minorities are generally better-off than most Muslims. The reason is that, save Muslims, everyone else has integrated themselves into the larger society.

It is not only the Muslims` fault. Vested interests have prevented them from enjoying all the benefits of a secular, democratic, and free nation - I point my finger at most of the Ulema, politicians of all faiths, and fellow citizens.

The trend has shifted of late, and an increasing number of Muslims are joining the mainstream. I only hope that they start flying their own flag - that of India.

Sunil Negi, New Delhi.

Help Afghanistan

Muslims in India V

Sir,

Taimur Bandey`s ``To be a Muslim in India`` (TFT March 16 - 22) pinpointed the fact that we Pakistanis do not value freedom. The author should realise though, that Muslims are ambitious in their attempts to educate their children, but often they do not have the means. Also, Indian education glorifies Hindu philosophy and claims that everything the Muslims have done is bad. Hence many Muslims are turning to madrassahs.

An Indian Muslim friend of mine repeatedly narrated stories of injustice and police harassment in Bombay. He told me how his father died of a heart attack, because a Hindu trader, with the help of the police, made his life miserable until he lost possession of the only property he had, from which he eked out a living by renting it. The family were destitute.

At one point, Mr. Bandey asks himself if Pakistan should exist, or if it should have stayed with India. In order to answer the question, we must first ask ourselves if we would have fared better ruled by Vajpayee, Advani, Thakeray, Rajiv Gandhi, or Indira Gandhi. The answer is no. Indians have nothing that Pakistanis do not have.

Pakistan was a concept waiting to happen. Whether it was in 1947, 1957, or 1997, the creation of Pakistan was inevitable. Muslims and Hindus are essentially two different nations, with two opposing perceptions of history, culture, and of course, religion. A war between the two would have been a bloodbath that no UN peacekeepers could stop. Think of it this way: Pakistan was a favour to both Hindus and Muslims.

Khalid Ahmad, London.

Dear friend Sigalph,

I am still perplexed by your apparent endorsement for the call for ``reunificaton``.

However, on an intellectual level I wish to point out a certain inherent flaws with your argument...

since I have in my early teens read quite a bit on the late Eighteenth Century Indian History ...

1) You call Calcutta the Cultural capital of United Bangla,... Calcutta gained major importance as a British Town, with a fort. It is like Karachi, a Modern Town. Other than its Economic and Political importance which was gained because it was a British town, it has no real ``Historical`` significance for Bengalis. Kindly explain.

Nawab Siraj ud Daullah`s and before him his grandfather Nawab Mahabat Jang`s Capital was Murshadabad if I am not mistaken. Calcutta was the focal point of hostility to the ``Independent`` state of Bengal.

2) Bengalis admittedly have been the forefront of movements of all sorts... Communal National etc.

The ``Anandmath`` was written by Hindu Bengali, and symbolizes Hindu National Identity. Bengali Muslims had supported the Division of Bengal, All India Muslim League was formed in Dacca, the Lahore Resolution was presented by a Bengali, Calcutta Riots happened in Bengal, Bengali Nationalism owes its birth to that region... and ofcourse the war of Independence of 1971 that you fought.

Bengalis have stood up for their rights, their freedom and their sovereignty as different nations communities etc whenever, their rights were infringed upon. In so many words, Bengal has been the most Explosive region in the History of the Subcontinent.

Then how can you envisage a reunification between the two states.

-YLH

PS Chowk Staff dont feel free to censor this post please.

sigalph:

you are right that invoking God in itself is not a violation of what is commonly understood as ``secularism`` - I was just pointing out that there are elements in Bangladesh that do rely on Islam as a basis for the state and Bengali Muslims were part of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan for more than two decades. I take your point that a brief four month period of the Islamic Republic of Bangladesh after a coup should not be laid at the door of the Bangladeshi people.

However, providing transit rights to Indian truckers revealed the religious fault lines within Bangladesh. Imagine the secular state of Canada not allowing trucks to go from the secular state of Alaska to Washington Seattle in the United States. Its not even a free trade issue, its transit rights. Why cannot Bangladesh provide transit rights for Indian trucks - isn`t it because because the Islamic parties are worried about ``Muslim identity``? If not that, then what?

With regard to whether Bangladesh is East Germany or West Bengal is East Germany - my assumption is that India is Europe and Bangladesh is East Germany - clearly a point of view. To you yours and to me mine. Alternatively it could be like Austria and Germany - two separate states and all this talk about East Germany and West Germany could be the wrong analogy altogether. Time will tell.

Ref ylh:

``Long Live Greater Bangladesh

Long Live Independent Khalistan

...

Long Live Independent Nagaland``

I think I`ll use the following:

``Jiye Sindh

Long Live Independent Baluchistan

Long Live Independent Pakhtoonistan``

two can play the game

All this talk about east-west Bengal reminds me of the time my parents were living in the middle east.

My father was born (pre-partition) in Dacca and his side of the family still speaks ``Bangaal`` (the dialect of the east). This was a great source of amazement to Bangladeshi`s he met in the middle east who were amazed to find this Indian who speaks like he was raised a few miles down the road from their village.

About Tagore my mom says the Bangladeshi`s have done much more to keep his heritage alive than W. Bengali`s.

Chowkstaff,

I dont know, what I have done to earn your wrath, but Please, and I beg you, dont confuse people about me by playing around with my posts.

Saima Shah,

When one is placed in a position of power, one doesnot do themselves a favor, by abusing it the way you have done so in the past.

I apologize for whatever I have done, but kindly donot let your Ego come in the way, of this site`s future.

-YLH

Ref Eklavya #: 721

[Anybody`s sexual life should be of nobody else`s concern, that include prophets` private affairs.]

Bill Clinton was impeached, for what? A public figure, particularly one who professed to teach morality and left Life`s Little Instruction Book (The Quran) including instructions on how to clean one`s behind after crapping should expect to have his actions examined. This business of implicit and unquestioning obedience is only for those stupid Muslims who have decided to lobotomize themselves. Among Hindus nowadays, it happens after they retire and when they have nothing else to do, then they start becoming religious and start praying 3 times a day, attending religious discourses and justifying all the crap in Hinduism; among Muslims, it seems to be from the very young age.

Ali1 -- may the fleas of a thousand camels bite him -- in a deliberately insulting manner asked if it wasn`t true that Hanuman had sex with Sita. I have every intention of not only responding to such insults but will raise historical truths that Muslims refuse to face - because, in facing them, they will have to admit they are the worst morons on earth if they continue to believe the crap put out by Muhammed. As is typical, these people didn`t know what was good for them. If they would lay off my religion, there is a small chance that I will go easy on them but there is no guarantees in life.

You ought to stay out of this argument. Let YLH, Krashid, Ali1 and a few others explain Muhammed`s conduct and slug it out with me. Of course, that pathetic coward Ali1 is nowhere to be seen. I went looking for more info on Ayesha and all I seem to find is the predilection of Muhammed for young girls. Krashid, watch out, if you don`t want me to post more on Ayesha.