The Meaning of Pakistan

``All manner of mud has been thrown at Gandhi (even by some Indians). There is one reason why it hasn`t stuck:``

I wish to point out its perhaps because he was very thin since he loved to starve... ``Kamar-hey-ya-vehem`` kind of person.... Ahem....

Aisha

Re: DG #705

Sorry, different religion as it`s the Peoples Republic of Bangladesh.

Another reason mud will never stick to the Mahatma :

read

http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/traditions/kagzi.html

Kabuliwallah :

This one is for you

http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/support/theGNIStory/gniorigins.html

-Arun Gupta

Ref sigalph235 #: 698

[But please understand that one of the essential differences between Pakistan and Bangladesh is the fact that Bangladesh is NOT A COUNTRY THAT MUSLIMS HAVE. Bangladesh is a country that BANGLADESHIS have.]

I fully agree. Bengalis of all stripes have worked together historically, be it in India or today in Bangladesh. Nor are Bangladeshis parochial to the extent that Pakistanis are. I saw an ad from the Bangladesh Association that listed among Bengal`s famous sons Rabindranath Tagore -- something that would be unthinkable in Pakistan where everything good comes from Arabia.

It is a great pity that Partition was rushed through in 1947. Bangladesh could have been created at that time. The true colors of the Punjabi-Pathan clique could be seen shortly thereafter when Pakistan treated East Bengal as its virtual colony; wasn`t that the charge that the Muslim League laid at the feet of the Hindus in their demand for Pakistan, that they would be less than equal? The only people in the subcontinent who paid in blood for their independence are the Bangladeshis. I admire them for their grit and courage as well as for the gentleness of their soul.

In your treatment of your women too, Bangladesh stands head and shoulders above any Islamic country. The work of the Grameen Bank in uplifting the rural poor women has become a shining beacon for the rest of the world, including even black women in Chicago and other ghettoes.

May Bangladesh prosper and live up to the name Sonar Bangla.

Fuzair re. #667

you write: ``But didn`t Foucault say that we are all prisoners of our own discourse? So we cannot escape our biases, at best we can only recognize them? Granted, that would be a major improvement in most cases but....``

Am I to take it tha you agree with Foucault there? It seems to me a fairly outrageous assertion-- that biases cannot be overcome.

You continued: ``This is the second, and only, useful thing I ever found in my reading of Foucault. The first was that all criminals are actually revolutionaries.``

Well, that might be true for `rebels with a cause, and even for, say, a Charles Manson- or a Unambomber -type killer, but how true is it to be calling your average self-interested criminal money-laundering politician a revolutionary?

For what`s it`s worht, I`ll tell you one of the few things Foucault said that I think is truly insightful and correct (not that I`ve read him extensively): There are no such things as sex crimes-- they are just physical assualt! Come to think of it, someone made the case that Islam treats the matter in much the same light.

rgds,

PM

Issue of `abolute control`

It is impossible to separate the issue of control from the concept of visionary leadership. If visionary leaders are to realize their dreams they can must not let those who do not at all suscribe to their methods come in the way. In Gandhi`s case, he had laid down a nonviolent resistance methodology. His whole approach would have fallen apart had he allowed those who burnt down police stations run away with his movement. That would have not be leadership. Others, ofcourse, were free to do whatever they liked so long as they did not claim to act under his leadership. The same was the case with Jinnah. Once he decided that he could not live in India, he could not be expected to let his followers work at cross purposes.

Maintaining control over a movement is not the same as excercising total control. Anyone who has led even a tiny organization would understand that.

*An earlier version of this post vanished into cyber ether *

There is a correction in my Reply #704.

I had written: ``All manner of mud has been thrown at Gandhi (even by some Indians). There is one reason why it hasn`t stuck: his life was open, for him there was no distinction between the personal and private. He was, to quote a famous admirer, ``the living sermon.````

It should be ``..between his personal and public life...``

tantralogician

Ref krashid #: 697

[If you can trust Encycleopedia Brittanica on Islamic history, you can also trust them on computer technology.]

Encyclopedia Brittannica gets scholars in each discipline to do the writing. Thus, Islamic History will be written by scholars in that discipline, not by some RSS fundo.

I have NEVER quoted Hindu historians on the history of India. I have always tried to locate a Western historian who has done a lot of research on the history of India.

On the same basis, I will not go to ANY Islamic source for the history of Islam. I have gone to a neutral source to meet your challenge that I should produce a reference.

On some other board, one of the prolific posters such as Asif Naqshbandi brought out the fact that Muhammed`s descendants were wiped out in factional infighting caused by the Caliphate succession. He had also mentioned that Ayesha was charged with adultery. Perhaps it was only technical, in that she stayed with men who were not mahram to her but you can go do that research.

LOL

If I had access to the article mentioned in message # 701, I would surely have posted it, but I didn`t. So that was NOT my post.

However, I do see a number of my messages missing from this board and others.

Such is life :)

Harimau,

You sadly are unaware of my views, and I request you kindly shut up....

-YLH

Reply to #700

fuzair wrote:

``AND didn`t he call of his `peaceful` agitation when some of his followers got a little carried away and burnt alive policemen? Isn`t that demanding total control over the process?``

In every characterization context is vital. Gandhi did have an authoritarian streak in him. But did he have a noble conceptions of his ends and were his means to achieve them conceived fairly with no malice or hatred toward anyone? I would argue the answer is overwhelmingly yes. So while ``total control`` may be nominally true it leaves out much more than it reveals. This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty that I alluded to earlier. For instance, one could also write that Gandhi preached abstinence when he himself enjoyed sex, without mentioning that he himself went through the journey of cleansing himself of his elemental passions before prescribing the path to others.

All manner of mud has been thrown at Gandhi (even by some Indians). There is one reason why it hasn`t stuck: his life was open, for him there was no distinction between the personal and private. He was, to quote a famous admirer, ``the living sermon.``

tantralogician

Was not Mahatma Gandhi`s approach to Muslims in India strongly influenced by his experience in South Africa, where, too, he faced the issue of mobilizing the Muslim community ?

-Arun Gupta

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 700)
Dear Fuzair:

I tend to agree with you (and tantralogician)but knowing Hamza Alavi`s scholarship I would like to know why he said what he did. Is there really any substance in his opinions/observations? I don`t know.

The political history of pre-Partition India has too many loopholes. Both Indians and Pakistanis need to rewrite (political and social) history paying attention to the power and weaknesses of various political leaders (including Gandhi and Jinnah) and their supporters.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

This was published in Wall Street Journal ( interactive edition ) a couple of months ago, I am posting it here for everyone`s benefit.

December 22, 2000

Dow Jones Newswires

Pakistan Looks To IT To Jump-Start Flagging Economy

By DONNA FUSCALDO

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

NEW YORK -- Faced with a labor shortage in the U.S., George Bogle did what many constrained employers do. He looked to the international markets for relief.

But the president and chief executive of Houston software company MegaMania Interactive didn`t tap the usual suspects like Ireland and India, famous for their abundant supply of inexpensive software developers. Instead the Texan bet his money on Pakistan, a country reeling from a military coup and facing a stagnant economy.

Ian Rowe had to get iMar.com up and running in breakneck speed but couldn`t afford the inflated outsourcing fees found in the U.S. So the entrepreneur turned to the Internet and found a little Web development company that had the talent and could meet the deadline at a much loftier price. Surprisingly, that company`s headquarters are in Pakistan.

Pakistan, a country that shares its border with bitter rival India, fundamentalist Afghanistan, and communist China, is known more for its nuclear-weapon proliferation, ongoing clashes with India and waning relations with the U.S. than for its technology prowess.

But the new military regime, which ousted the civilian rule in a bloodless coup in October of 1999 is aggressively trying to lure back foreign investment lost during the uprising. Its No. 1 hope in doing so is information technology.

This past year, Pakistan, under the rule of Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf, instituted its first ever IT policy that includes generous tax breaks and financing arrangements for foreigners who set up shop in or outsource software development to the country.

The government has set up many policies to entice IT businesses. The policies include lifting duties on all computer hardware and equipment, providing a five-year tax holiday on software exports and foreign investments and offering software exporters a credit line with a low interest rate that doesn`t require collateral. The government also has committed 5 billion rupees or roughly $850 million to IT and plans to build seven universities concentrating solely on technology.

Software exports account for $60 to $70 million in revenue, but the government wants to boost that to $500 million in five years. And start-ups like MegaMania and iMar.com aren`t the only high-tech companies to turn to Pakistan. Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), Oracle Corp. (ORCL), Sun Microsystems Inc. (SUNW) and Motorola Inc. (MOT) all have a presence in the region, and International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) may build a manufacturing plant there, according to Farrakh Qayyum, Minister of Trade. Officials at IBM declined to comment on its future plans.

Why have so many high-tech companies ignored the perils of Pakistan and set up camp there? For Bogle, the Texas businessman, it was simple: to save money.

The cost of software development in Pakistan is about 15% of the cost in the United States, said Bogle, who at first was hesitant to disclose figures out of fear that others would jump on the Pakistan bandwagon.

Bogle`s MegaMania opened up its facilities in Pakistan just months after the October coup that ousted Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

``I got cautioned by a lot of people from friends on,`` said Bogle. ``But some things you do by faith and I had ultimate confidence in our man Norr that he wouldn`t have told me it was safe if it wasn`t,`` he said, referring to MegaMania`s chief technology officer Nooruddin Paracha, who suggested the company look at Pakistan. With a minimal investment, the benefits outweighed the risks, said Bogle, whose company is about to merge with Gulfnet Pakistan Ltd., a Pakistani software developer.

Foreign Investors Urged To Use Caution

But risks need to be considered. In addition to the clashes with India in the Kashmir region which have led to the nuclear weapon proliferation, Pakistan is currently ruled by a military government which has promised to hold elections and turn over control in 2002. So future IT policy is unclear. Investors in the region also have to contend with a lackluster economy.

``Pakistan`s economy is in very deep structural trouble,`` said Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas. ``Any where from 26% to 38% of the national budget gets devoted to national defense and another roughly 30% is debt servicing.``

Less than 10% of the population pay taxes and the country derives most of its revenue from agriculture and textile exports, he said.

And that`s not even factoring in corruption, noted Ganguly. A few years ago, a Swiss group ranked Pakistan as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, second only to Nigeria, he said.

But Pakistan`s minister of trade disagrees. He said the government is weeding out corruption. And with a growth rate of 3.5%, the economy is not in bad shape.

``The textile sector is doing well, we have an excellent wheat crop and the economy is not as bad as the media portrays it,`` Qayyum said.

As for the military handing over control in 2002, the current government is committed to the process of elections, Qayyum said.

Still Ganguly said foreign companies should be cautious. ``At this point (Pakistan`s IT policy) is all on paper. It remains to be seen how this will transform in any real meaningful action,`` he said.

At best Ganguly, who called Pakistan`s IT policy is a lot of ``smoke screens,`` said the country`s technology push could be compared with Malaysia`s initiatives a decade ago.

``Malaysia has been able to succeed reasonably well, but the country started out with a much greater base of wealth,`` he said.

Few emerging countries are making a dent in technology. ``A country needs extraordinary engineering skills,`` Qayyum said. ``It`s not like growing corn.``

Motorola, the handset maker, is already benefiting from Pakistan`s IT policy. According to Zouhair Khaliq, director of operations, Europe, Middle East and Africa, at Motorola, the military government has brought more stability and a more receptive regulatory environment. In the past, the country was less stable.

Take January 1995 for instance. The then-ruling government shut down Mobilink GSM, a cellular operator in Pakistan in which Motorola had a 75% stake, citing security reasons. By June of that year, all three cellular operators in Karachi, Pakistan`s largest city, were closed and a ban was imposed until January 1997. As a result, Motorola reduced its stake in Mobilink GSM to 30%, diluting its risk, Khaliq said.

Pakistan Makeover Focuses On Software Exports

But with the new government and its new policies, Mobilink is prospering. ``Mobilink has experienced the best growth in the past 12 months. The Ministry of IT and telecommunications (under the military government) approved a calling party pay policy last month and this is expected to encourage cellular growth as it has in other such markets,`` Khaliq said. Mobilink has grown its customer base three fold and is forecasting 300% growth for next year alone, he said.

Bahram Mohazzebi, Gulf and Eastern Mediterranean general manager at Microsoft, agreed that the technology sector in Pakistan is gaining momentum. He cited the government`s decision to remove duties from technology products. ``Pakistan is a huge market and we believe that it will be a major contributor to IT in the region,`` said Mohazzebi.

Microsoft set up shop in March and expects its presence to grow. Like many high-tech companies, Microsoft was lured by Pakistan`s large population of 132 million people and by cheap labor.

Pakistan is trying to move from being an exporter of cotton and textiles to an exporter of software, said Philip Oldenburg, associate director of the Southern Asia Institute at Columbia University. The country can emulate India, which has attracted IT outsourcing business, Oldenburg said.

An IT push in Pakistan is viable, but Oldenburg said he doesn`t think Pakistan will be able to thrive as much as India has. Pakistan and India share similar English education systems, but India`s higher education programs are more advanced, he said.

``India has an enormous pool of trained engineers,`` Ganguly said. ``Pakistan just doesn`t have that same kind of pool. They never made the same investment in engineering and education that India did in the early `60s.``

Pakistan`s Qayyum disagrees, however. Not only does he contend Pakistan offers better facilities than other countries, it also has an ample number of English-speaking citizens and has bandwidth connectivity rates that are lower than India`s, he said.

``We have a vision to be in the IT map of the world,`` he said. ``Pakistan has the sufficient infrastructure and incentives for IT to flourish as it does in other countries.``

-Donna Fuscaldo; Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-5253;

donna.fuscaldo@dowjones.com

Prof. Bilal

I`m afraid that I have to agree with tantra... about the sophomoric quality of the Alavi piece. I`ve read some of his other work and it was miles ahead of this one. Either the good professor whipped it out in about 5 minutes or he is getting a little past his prime. To insult him and compliment Ms. Sarwari, it read more like something she would write rather than one from Prof. Alavi. That is, it read more like a `C` paper written for an intro poliscsi/history class than a scholarly piece of work. A `C` level is what this current article might aspire to with a good rewrite.

Incidentally Tantra..., wasn`t the Congress essentially a nationalist debating club UNTIL Gandhi came along and energized the masses with his Hindu imagery/appeal? AND didn`t he call of his `peaceful` agitation when some of his followers got a little carried away and burnt alive policemen? Isn`t that demanding total control over the process? Jinnah used the same mass-based tactics (e.g., 1946 Direct Action Day) when it became clear that he would never be taken seriously unless he showed his ability to create REAL trouble for Congress and the British. Which is exactly what happened with Congress and the British. It was never taken seriously by the British until it acquired--via Gandhi--a mass base. Congress was a British creation after all and they knew it was feckless as long as it didn`t have any popular support. So Prof. Alavi was not entirely incorrect in much of what he says, just not well written or argued.

Regards to all.

PS: Gymno, old boy, the official slogan is:
Pakistan ka mutlab kya?
La illaha illullah.

Ms. Sarwari, Gymno does have a valid point. Closing your ears and shouting ``naa naa naa`` serves no purpose.