The Meaning of Pakistan

Re: Ahmadb #666

But didn`t Foucault say that we are all prisoners of our own discourse? So we cannot escape our biases, at best we can only recognize them? Granted, that would be a major improvement in most cases but....

This is the second, and only, useful thing I ever found in my reading of Foucault. The first was that all criminals are actually revolutionaries.

Regards

In response to tantralogician (Reply #: 662)
Dear Friend:

We can`t avoid biased scholarship unless we create the conditions for avoiding it. What measures do we need to adopt in this respect?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to mcgupta (Reply # 652)
Dear Arun:

Thanks for the link. The correspondence between Amitav Ghosh and Dipesh Chakrabarty is interesting. Out these two scholars/writers, I am aware of the contribution of Chakrabarty. He has recently published another book, “Rethinking Working Class History” (2000) which deals with the Calcutta jute workers.

“Provincializing Europe” is project of globalizing European thought by exploring how it may be renewed for and from the margins. Chakrabarty, in proposing that transition to capitalism is a translation of existing world and their thought-categories into the world of capitalist modernity and its thought-categories, demonstrates how such tranlational history may be conceptualized and actually written for both colonial and contemporary India.

Provincializing Europe, in my view, is a must reader for all serious scholars of South Asian history.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

re saxena

``With the power vested in me by the devil, I hereby pronounce an unholy union of a certain someone whose name begins with ``y`` with another someone who attends San Jose State.``

Shame on you! I absolutely veto that blessing. How could you bless a union without the festivities and, more importantly, without ME being in attendance! Make no mistake about it, saxena babu, I`ll be mighty annoyed if ylh decides to hitch himself without me being properly invited and feted during the celebrations. Don`t encourage such rude departures from established traditions.

Therefore, by the power vested in me by State of _, I undo Mr Saxena`s blessings. For the time being:)

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Response to #660

ahmadb writes: ``I have a lot of respect for Professor Hamza Alavi. For those who cannot read Urdu, I want to recommend:

http://www.dawn.com/events/millennium/2.htm``

tantralogician says: A perusal of this article reveals why Pakistani `scholars` have been confined to that space exclusively reserved for toilet paper. The author sees all kinds of nefarious motives in Mahatma Gandhi but the womanising, whiskey-swilling and pork-loving Jinnah, that hate-mongering runt who incited riots and caused spillage of untold pints of blood, is above reproach. Wah bhai wah!

tantralogician

Harimau #658

First you were telling us that this thing was after prophet`s death. Now you are saying that it happened when Prophet PBUH was alive.

You are on right track. There are many facts wrong still. Try to look for it.

Then you will learn to respect her.

In response to Ali1 (Reply # 654)
Dear Ali:

I have a lot of respect for Professor Hamza Alavi. For those who cannot read Urdu, I want to recommend:

http://www.dawn.com/events/millennium/2.htm

Here the text is written by Hamza Alavi himself.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Response to ali1 #654

ali1 wrote:

``Gandhi the two faced bas_tard was the worst enemy Indian muslims have ever had.``

tantralogician says: Confucius it was who pointed out that in teh case of a great man it is not enough to be simply liked: rather, he must be liked by the good of the land and hated by the despicable of the land. That ali1-jee hates Gandhi is, therefore, hugely reassuring.

tantralogician

Ref krashid #: 606

[But continue to post. I am learning little bit about your religion through your post.

As far as you have no time for web to extract the history visit answering islam dot.com. It will give you enough unauthetic history for your whole life to post. (But don`t discuss and make a fool of yourself with no references) Learn with Sadhna, aka MSarwar and Mohajir cut and paste job. It is easy to use right hand button with cut and paste job]

All right, I will give you a little comparison.

As for the legend of Ram, Ram is the eldest son of the King of Ayodhya, Dasrath, and is exiled to the forest for 14 years by the machinations of his step-mother. While in the forest, Sita is abducted by Ravan and taken to Lanka. Ram befriends Hanuman who flies off to Lanka to look for Sita. Having located Sita, he offers to take her back to Ram but Sita refuses; instead she gives him her ring and other ornaments so that Hanuman can prove to Ram that Sita is still alive. Ram fights with Ravan, kills him, and rescues Sita.

Ram realizes that if he takes back Sita, there would be questions among the public about the fidelity of Sita, who after all was held in captivity for 10 months. So he prepares a fire and asks Sita to enter the fire. Sita does so and comes out of the fire unharmed, thus proving her inncocence.

The moral to the story is that even Ram the incarnation of Vishnu was subject to human laws when he was born a human. Not only that, he did not enjoy any privileges as a king either so as to be able to exempt his wife from having to prove her innocence. Those are some of the lessons we draw from Ram`s life.

Let us now compare this to Ayesha. Ayesha was accused of infidelity when she spent time in the desert away from Muhammed in the company of other men. Ayesha was accused of adultery before Muhammed and Muhammed had a ``divine revelation`` that Ayesha was innocent. (Search Encyclopedia Brittannica for Ayesha, Wife of Prophet Muhammed.) End of story.

What is that bullshit you guys say about everybody being equal in Islam and Hinduism teaches inequality? Seems like Muhammed is more equal than others in Islam.

Ali

Thanks for the link. However, I must say that if what Hamza Alavi says about Gandhi is true, then it only shows Gandhi`s shrewdness as a Politician.

Let us not approach History as Good vs Evil, but as a conflict of Interest. Gandhi`s objective behind playing the ``Mullahs`` against the ``educated`` elite might not entirely be based on his malicious intent, but his personal convictions about Religious illiterate masses being a better community to bring about change. Nevertheless I agree he was wrong, especially in the Khilafat Movement, which turned out to be a collossal failure.

-YLH

On enjoying differences:

Arun Gupta, here is something from Dipesh Chakrobarty`s letter to Amitav Ghosh (www.amitavghosh.com/correspondence.html) that I wanted to share with everyone on Chowk:

``The world is indeed big and the trick, I now think, is not only to accept difference but enjoy it. India is also too big to be reduced to any unitary experience. Colonialism was no one thing. But our difference can be productive. You and I may not agree on everything. But I know that even when I disagree, the pressure of your thoughts will keep acting on me. And one day I may see some of the things you see, share your passion or be better able to see through your eyes. Something similar may happen to you. Even if I never get to that point, the knowledge that someone I respect disagrees will lace what I think and how I think it. There is a fragment of a sentence from Heidegger which continues to intrigue me: ``to hear that which I do not already understand..`` Often in listening to someone, I try to work out what this injuction may actually mean in practice. I am not absolutely clear but it kind of works as an ethical horizon for me.``

BTW, does anyone know if this is the same Dipesh Chakraborty who taught at the Indian Institute of Management, Calcutta in the late 1980s?

Sarwari #618

You are right about my stay in Kenya. I used to go there in school vacations when my father was posted there. Three years. I did not attend school there. Lived with other Pakistani families and learned verbally Swahili language a little bit. Since people in Nairobi also speak English, so I could not learn much

(In my post below institution means different institutions of State like judiciary, provincial Government, local Government and Federal Government, including political parties etc).

The point raised by Urstruly in his post is valid and important as is BAhmed and Q.Isa.

Although without State, there will be anarchy. But on what principles State is formed is important (and that is the political struggle)

I agree with you that education is important. But so is economic activity and both should complement each other. How can we stimulate these activities for the benefit of all.

In the BOTTOMS UP approach of Urstruly, I would add we have to realize that Pakistan is a multiethnic, multicultural, multi-religious country. What institutions we can create?

I don`t deny the importance of individuals. I have worked myself with Prof. Adib Rizvi a very dedicated individual. But working of institutions is very important. Even if Pervez Musharraf is sincere. What will happen once he goes. Or some opportunist utilizes those institutions. Who is going to provide leadership to people, once there is no political party left?

Does Army knows better who are the best leaders for people of Pakistan?

Once the State Apparatus is coersive and strong and in the hands of be so called benevolent dictator, we donot feel the pinch as much. But the same institutions can be very ruthless, as is evidenced in East Pakistan.

So I will continue to appreciate the effort of your father (I don`t know who he is?) and other people. But will continue to fight for the creation of institutions where people`s rights cannot be usurped even at the hands of most corrupt leaders, or most ruthless dictators.

I will urge to read the work of Akhtar Hameed Khan and his Orangi Pilot project (and Grameen Bank in Bangladesh which I came to know on this board), to see how how the people can be helped to take care of their own destiny in their own hands.

Wassalam and Regards

RE: Bilal Ahmad on Gandhi

Gandhi the two faced bas_tard was the worst enemy Indian muslims have ever had. This interview of Hamza Alavi throws some light on this.

http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/mar2001-weekly/sunmag-25-03-2001/index.html

Please take a look at

http://www.tehelka.com/aspsite/lr080400ghose6.htm

(The whole site seems poorly linked. You can

step through the interview by changing the last

digit in the URL).

Quote :

That`s one of the reasons why I think The Glass Palace is a difficult book to read for Indians because it does open that wound in a way that we`re not accustomed to seeing being done in the English language. And I think when this realization dawned on me, it was really a shattering thing, it was completely shattering because I realised then that in so many ways what our interlocutors in Hindi or in Bengali are saying to us is true. We are complicitous with Empire. We are complicitous with Imperial ways of thinking. We are complicitous, you know, in taking an essentially conqueror`s view of India.``

End quote

Kabuliwallah wrote :

Krishna said ``Do your duty and do not expect the fruits`` .....

Krishna`s sermon is fine on paper, but does not translate into action in real life. This laziness is visible for everyone in India.

-----

My reply :

Someone already mentioned Mahatma Gandhi who relied on the Gita.

I will add to that Dadaji Pandurang Shastri Athavale. You may read a little about his Gita-based work on www.swadhyay.org (the server is a little flakey today, however).

If you want to explore where many of India`s problems started, one place for ideas is

http://www.amitavghosh.com/correspondence.html

[Bilal Ahmed, if you are reading this, I would like your opinion.]

-Arun Gupta