The Meaning of Pakistan

temporal #15

....... i wish i could write in urdu as well as you do ... the language seems to be made for my dotted style of dragging simple parables into convoluted circular arguments with dots running into jumpy sentences which run into more dots and then into endless paragraphs which somewhere in the middle loose meaning and context and you find yourself lost looking for that elusive end to a big ball of string which somehow seems to be important but which could be kaka for all you know .......there ! go punctuate that .........

.... and, allah ki kasam, i never said my wife was a bad cook... but then again maybe i did .... as the irascible duo, ylh and scout, have suggested, i have probably killed half my brain cells in hedonistic pursuits ..... but, they don`t know that a 18 year old macallan in hand is better than two ageless houris in the bush ......

Tantralogician #12

Youroutlook is according to your thinking.

The basis of Islam or the pillar of Islam is Tawheed or believe in One God which includes no partner to God.

Idol worship means that in some form you are putting humans or any other creation of God as partners of God.

So by accepting the idol worship as right Muslims negate Islam.

Scout #8

A positive approach is very much appreciated.

But this is a negative approach.

Providing the umbrella of Islam to perpetuate the rape of Pakistanis by our ruling elite.

The news of today says that there is a plan again to distribute land of Sind to Army.

May be new generation of Momin will be bitten by a hole which we already know too well.

But I doubt it. Below the calm is a great flood waiting as far as I can see.

Aisha,

The spirit of your article was good. But I think you are being romantic when you say that any thing worthwhile/ intellectual thing that exists in world is Islamic and that Quran is a book of science. We need difference of opinion and have the courage to acknowledge that there can be sources of enlightenment that are non Islamic. May be what you are driving at is ijtihad, this is certainly desperately needed in Muslim countries.

We must also acknowledge Quran is meant to be a book of guidance and not a book of science and technology. The common response to any new discovery or invention by the Western countries by our moulvis is that either it is anti islamic and worth of out right rejection, or, we already knew it 1400 years ago. These both responses make our people complacent in areas of science and research. Even Ibn e Rushd was for separtaion of science and religion in his `doctrine of double truth`. We really need rational, logical people in Pakistan who make decisions in their life on reasoning and not on old customs and superstitions.

You are true when you point out the evil of increasing gap between rich and poor in Pakistan, there is a need for a big political/ economic reform in Pakistan. Our only hope is young optimistic people. The kind of brain drain taking place from Pakistan is indeed unfortunate. And our bright people provide their sweat and blood for the progress of Western countries, who in the first place exploit countries like Pakistan. So there are two fronts to have a struggle for Pakistan, first within country and second aginst foreign capitalist exploitation.

taking off from a strain in this article i would like to say that, yes, the metaphysical examination of pakistan is warranted. in the light of the almost congenital conlfict betwen hindus and muslims, the traditions of true islam, properly and peacefully practiced leave no room for conflict or attrition with any other race or creed. in fact i have often toyed with idea that sufism and islam mystical strains could lead us to everlasting communal peace.

Good Article.

But I have always wondered why people from the other side of Wagha bring religion and the prophets everytime they have to make a point.

Perhaps, Bilalji, SameerJB and a few others can explain it.

Indians do have a very iriitating habit of sitting on their perches and giving sermons on society, civilazation, economics and democracy and the reason they manage to do it because they generally (generally is the operative part) don`t wear religion on their sleeve (the practice of having it on their forehead is also becoming less over time). Indians, inspite of increased religiousity, normally keep religion in their heart or hearth and don`t take the responsibility of defending the name of that entity who is expected to defend the humanity in general. (Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc. never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)

And here one finds people going berserk interpreting words from the book written 1400 years ago ad-infinitum justifying not only the Rights but also the Wrongs and if both not possible then just stating that `ways and reasons of God are unknown and can`t be understood always`(Mr. Adnan please note) . The worst part is when one finds young people hooked on to this exercise. How all these intelligent, rational people believe that God is so `Wehla` that he actually may have left all these instructions about how to wake up and how to sleep etc! Disappointing scenario indeed.

A few months back, I was astonished when I came to know that a friend`s daughter (in cosmopolitan Karachi) aged 9 years go to madarassah to learn reading the Book. I was horrified that everybody goes through this process at such tender age. No wonder, there is so much of indoctrination. Here, my daughter asked me `What is Hindu` when census man came for head counting. I told her that there is no hurry. She has enough time to know.Oh God!

Have mercy on the world!

Found this interview on ``Pakistan`s agenda`` very interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/fmqu/jamaat.html

``Truth and its various components like knowledge and expertise should be acknowledged and appreciated regardless of the source.``

Kewl!


``Any good book is Islamic, any activity enhancing a person’s nafs (soul) is Islamic, any language you learn that helps you communicate your purpose of life which is unique and positive (even if it isn’t Arabic) is Islamic, any expression you choose to convey the message which is a means to an end (as long as innocent lives aren’t at stake) is Islamic, Any marketing for a cause that is modern outward looking and gives human beings a greater economic standing so they are in a position to think about their higher
selves (within the constraints of morality), is Islamic.``

Now that, dear lady, is bullcrap.

``Hindu fanaticism`` in present day India too wants the same thing, of course from a Hindu point of view...they want to assimilate everybody, Sikh, Christian, Muslim...even some different Hindus...in fact, one of the theories going around is that Muslims were and are constantly afraid of Hinduism`s assimilative character. Thus Pakistan? Probably one of the reasons...Now, what you say would scare the sh!t out of any non-Muslim in your country and p!ss off most people outside. You accept people on their terms, not yours...I would resent being called a Muslim, because I am not...just like you resent Jinnah being called a kafir or Pakistan being called a kafir state...in fact what you call fundamentalists, are poor blokes who are forced into doing what they are doing...what you are doing out of the comfort of your San Jose room, madam, is entirely out of your will and is more dangerous than what the fundoos are doing...hope your views don`t rub off onto YLH...God protect him...I consciously did not talk anything about Pakistan or Islam...you were including others in your concept without their consent and I had to speak out

Let me try again.

It was a well-intentioned effort. That is nice.

The article had a positive tone. That is the need of the hour. Please keep up that positive spirit.

So much so that I began reading this article with pleasure. Here, I thought, was at long-last the much needed positive, constructive thinking.

That is why when the article soon deteriorated into worthless tired-old fluff, my disappointment was deep.

Dear author, what is needed is some NEW thinking. Out-of-the box thinking.

The world may be round alright but you can not go north by going south no matter how hard you run.

Re: Kabuliwallah #24

Thats a good post. We should accept diversification rather than assimiliation.

Aristotle

Mohajir #23

The article is very interesting but is it genuine?

The website seems to be some kind of fundamentalist site. I am deeply suspicious of fundamentalists of any kind. They are not above making things up.

Does anyone know if ``Jamhooria Islamia`` really is a monthly Baluchi magazine published from Panj-gar? Is Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan is some real person?

I haven`t seen a bigger load of crap than that article Urstrul tried to write a few weeks ago.

Dear sarwari:

I`ve read your article a couple of times and I am thoroughly confused(what`s new...sigh!!). My first impulse was to dismiss it as the meanderings of a brilliant first-generation Pakistani-American caught in the cross-hairs of an irreconcilable inner debate about religion and identity. Upon second thought, there is way too much theorizing about religion..what it actually means and how it fits into the neat little contradiction we call the land of the pure. And yet in the end there is no grand finale to pull it all together. Ramblings are nice(Zehra`s article is an example) if they are cathartic and pinch others into taking voyages of self-discovery. They grate on the brain if they are trying to provide coherent answers to what are essentially eternal, universal and in many cases personal questions.

In one broad sweep you`ve tried to delineate new moral underpinnings for a religion that has lost its way in the modern world and at the same time tried to defend it by inviting us to study its scientific moorings. You don`t stop there. You try and apply this glorious vision you have to the land of your ancestors and the motives of its creator. By all means do that. But please remember that your musings are little different from Scarlett`s utterings at the time of the American civil war. They make for a cute story but sadly leave little room for enlightenment-personal or collective. The rest of the world apparently marches to a different tune.

later

-sac

P.S: Contrary to his Einstein`s assertion, God does play dice with the universe. But that`s a debate for another time.

Re: Humsab

``(Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc. never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)``

That`s because we aren`t taught religion in our schools in India. No one ever asked me read to any holy books but the day I got a math problem wrong all hell broke loose in the class and at home.

Dear Chowk Interactors,

The utter lack of understanding that you people have shown for this article has made me realize that in the world where ``IT`` people from the silicon valley rule, true intellecutualism is under grave threat. I hold the silicon valleyites in greatest contempt for their lack of tolerance and understanding. No not everything works according to the binary code, not everything is C++... and sure as hell not Java.

This is the problem with any site emerging out of a mix of Computer Science and pseudo-intellectualism. Belief systems are applied across the board, and things are judged according to preconceived notions... What do these words mean anyway? Secularism, Islamic etc...

Unlike all of you fools, when I first read this article I saw a very progressive and secular spirit ... a very human spirit. Yes indeed, every good thing is ``Islamic`` and that is my faith... my personal definition of Islam... as in the words of Ataturk ``The Islam I profess has nothing against reason and Progress`` March 1924 hours before he abolished the Khilafat.

So who is a ``fundoo`` and ``Hindoo`` to tell me what my Islam is? Why cant my Islam equal Secularism ... dont even try to answer that question because you dont have an answer.

I dont agree with all that is in this article ...

I dont agree with Dr Abdul Wudood`s whatever the writer quotes... and I certainly dont agree with

mixing religion and politics.... but you are the ones who are at fault ! Because you did not make the subtle distinction that the brilliant mind of Aisha Sarwari was able to .... Nation and State are two different concepts ... hence despite the last line which holds true in another relevant sphere ...

``For the reason thatour foundation is, “La ilaha Illallah, Muhaumadur rasulullah” (There is NO God, but Allah, And Mohammed is his messenger)``

Aisha also says

`“Pakistan wasn’t created to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission”, but

instead a system of governance that was to be essentially secular and democratic`

and

`Jinnah, was a man who chose people regardless of their religion, caste or creed to do a certain job essential for that time, which proved that he was a just man. Truth and its various components like knowledge and expertise should be acknowledged and

appreciated regardless of the source. That in my opinion is being a true Muslim`

Now unless you CS people halt for a second, and learn the valid political science distinctions between Nation and State... you will not understand the brilliance of this article!

I suggest all of you ``wanna be intellectuals`` computer science nerds read Ziya Gokalp and Iqbal a little more to understand the Muslim mind... wouldnt hurt to read BR Ambedkar`s `Pakistan or Partition of India` ....

Humanism is not to deny differences... humanism to accept them... and tolerate them! One thing I think Chowk people really need to understand !

In short : Scout is right!

SAC : Aisha is not a Pakistani American but a Pakistani international student! Dont insult her!

YLH

PS I am still at odds to understand what Indians have against this article? If the Words ``Hindu Fanaticism`` bug them so much, then they should come up with an alternate explanation for the Babri Masjid Fiasco ... surely you cant point fingers at us Pakistanis for denying Fundamentalism and fanaticism amongst Muslims?

If saying secularism in manifest in Islam is assimilation, then I am sorry, but you all need to get a life... and learn some English while you are at it!