The Meaning of Pakistan
Aisha Sarwari March 10, 2001
#211 Posted by msarwar on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
`Poor Aitzaz has failed`
Maneesha Tikekar
Jung, Feb. 27, 2001
The stated purpose of Mr Aitzaz Ahsan in writing The Indus Saga and The Making of Pakistan was to provide rational explanation for the creation of Pakistan and search for the civilisational basis of Pakistan rooted in the Indus person and the Indus region. It is a saga of discovering identity of Pakistan; in brief it is the discovery of Pakistan itself. Intellectually this is indeed a very challenging project that calls for construction of a sound theoretical framework in which the vast historical data could be meaningfully fitted into in order to explain the distinction between Al Sindh and Al Hind. Al Sindh is the Indus region, the present day Pakistan as distinguished from Al Hind that is India according to the author.
An intellectual inquiry of this kind calls for analytical method and interdisciplinary approach drawing upon various social sciences. Analytical method employs a systematic and exhaustive examination of a case under study and explanation and interpretation of the data so that it confirms the hypothesis. Mr Ahsan has essentially adopted historical-descriptive approach to his enquiry and fails to establish conformity between his hypothesis and the vast data presented. The book begins with espousing the civilisational differences between the Indus and India that could be dated back to more than five thousand years and ends with elaborating communal differences between the Hindus and Muslims at the end of the British rule in the mid-twentieth century. Are civilisational and communal differences one and the same? Is there no difference between faith and civilisation? The Indonesian President Abdur Rehman Wahid once remarked, ``our faith is Islam but civilisation is Indonesian.`` The author has been unable to sustain the original argument effectively and convincingly because he has not drawn the conceptual parameters of the Indus identity.
There is no denying of the fact that the Indus region was the place of intermingling of the cultures of Central Asia, Persia and even others from far off lands. And to this extent it was different from the Gangetic plains. But the kind of neat boundary (Gurdaspur-Kathiawar Salient) the author attempts to draw between the two regions is difficult to sustain. One needs to differentiate between the boundary and the frontier. Boundary is a geographical concept as it is drawn between the sovereign nations today. Frontier is a sociological concept and is difficult to demarcate. Today the boundary between India and Pakistan is clearly demarcated because they are two separate sovereign entities. This geographical border also demarcates socio-political arrangements and religio-philosophical moorings in both the countries. When Mr Ahsan talks about India as distinguished from Indus he is according to the former a monolithic uniformity that has never existed. I think the kind of differences that have existed between Indus and India have also existed within India. Even today there are debates about the differences (not political alone but also attitudinal and socio-cultural) between North and the South in India.
What is the Indus identity? What are the ingredients or parameters of identity of a community? Did Central Asian and Persian influence constitute the core of Indus identity? The author does not tell his readers what were the distinct contributions of Indus civilisation in these areas. Civilisation is not constituted by separate racial identity alone though it is certainly an important factor. Nor can civilisation be constituted only eclectically-drawing upon neighbouring cultures. A distinct identity of a community of people is constituted by their contribution to art, literature, philosophy and science, the technologies they employ and the distinctness of their social and political organisations. It is achievements in these areas that distinguish civilisation from civilisation. To establish an identity of a civilisation one needs to adopt an ideographic approach ie methods that highlight the unique elements of the individual phenomenon.
A pertinent question arises when the author equates the Indus region to Pakistan today. On p 8 he states Indus has been Pakistan. 1947 was only a reassertion of that reality. It means he is talking of unbroken civilisational continuity and also acceptance of the entire Indus heritage by Pakistan. Now this creates a problem. On p 42 he states Vedas belong to Indus and Mahabharata to India. Does Pakistan today accept Vedas as its literary or philosophical heritage? Moreover is the difference between Vedas and Mahabharata merely geographical? Or is it indicative of evolution or progression (the term is purely explanatory ie moving from one stage to another and not normative or value laden) of Aryan society? Then he mentions Taxila`s ancient luminaries -- Panini, the grammarian or Caraka, a master of Indian medicine and Kautilya of Arthshastra. Panini was Sanskrit grammarian and Caraka belonged to the Ayurvedic system of medicine. Is Sanskrit or Ayurveda accepted as Pakistani heritage? Or is it seen as Indian or more precisely Hindu? On p 109 he talks about Urdu, which derived its vocabulary from a number of Indus and central Asian languages as well as from Persian. Is he unaware of the Indian languages vocabulary adopted by Urdu? He forgets that the nouns and verbs and patterns of sentence construction of Urdu and Hindi are identical.
The author is deliberately ambiguous about the epoch from which the heritage is claimed. On the one hand the author sings paeans to the ancient culture of the Indus region and on the other he talks about the affinity of religious beliefs along with other affinities with Central Asia. Which religious beliefs does he have in mind? If these beliefs are Islamic-Sufi in origin then he is talking of the Indus only after it became Islamic, if they are Buddhist then the question is how much of that heritage is kept alive in Pakistan? So the moot question is to what extent the Indus heritage or civilisation include pre-Islamic non-Muslim heritage? How has the synthesis taken place? Which pre-Islamic features of civilisation have been assimilated or rejected? The author does not seem to think this discussion important to the central theme of the Saga.
Mr Ahsan gives a brief account of rebellions against Mughals in the Indus region (117-119) as an indication of the difference between the Indus and India. He writes about the brave efforts of Bairam Khan, and Abdullah against Akbar, of Jahangir`s son in 1606, of Dara Shikoh`s campaign against Aurangzeb launched from his base in Indus and of Sikhs against the Mughals. This is rather a flimsy ground for establishing a different civilisational personality of the Indus. Such revolts for political, familial, feudal and economic reasons have taken place everywhere in the long history of mankind. What is typically Indus about them? And what about the Rajputs and Marathas who fought against the Mughals in India?
It is common knowledge that Pakistan was demanded and created as the homeland for Indian Muslims. It was the assertion of Muslim identity and by no stretch of imagination of the Indus personality as the author would like his readers to believe. The latter part of the book bears ample testimony to this. Mr Ahsan writes about Hindu-Muslim differences at great length though once a while he tries to project these differences as Indus-India differences. For example on page 263 he states ``The predominantly feudal and agrarian society of Indus was to be repelled by the prospect of becoming subject to predominantly bourgeois India.`` But then just a little below on the same page he says that ``the Hindu community had a vigorous bourgeoisie while the Muslim society was still agriculture based and feudal``. He is using ``Hindi- Muslim`` interchangeably with ``Indus-India`` and making a travesty of his own stated objective. He has overlooked the fact that the Muslim League was founded in Dhaka more than a thousand miles away from the Indus region to protect the Muslim interest because the Bengali Muslims were the first ones to become aware of the differences between Hindu bourgeoisie and Muslim peasantry. Later the Muslim Zamindars of United Province afraid of losing their lands to the Congress land reform programmes supported the Muslim League joined by Muslims of Bihar and some pockets on the West coast of India. The Indus region was the last one to join the Pakistan movement. Mr Ahsan would like us to believe that the Pakistan movement originated in the Indus region and others merely joined it later. Unless one views Pakistan as a result primarily of Muslim demand one has no clue to understand the East Bengal becoming a part of Pakistan.
Despite the flaws and faults in the analysis and conclusions the strength of the book lies in its very lucid style that engages the reader. Small chapters make the reading easy without intimidating the reader. If the idea of the ``unity and indivisibility of the subcontinent is rooted in mythology and expounded by Nehru to the point of romance`` it cannot be countered effectively by creating new myths and equally romantic ideas about the origin and identity of Pakistan. One fully understands the dilemma of liberal and secular minded Pakistanis like Mr Ahsan. He wants to shift the ground but cannot. He wants to establish rational non-communal basis for the establishment of Pakistan. But history does not let him do so. One can sympathise with his intention but not with his formulations. They are unfortunately self-defeating.
The writer is head of the Political Science Department, Mumbai University, India
Maneesha Tikekar
Jung, Feb. 27, 2001
The stated purpose of Mr Aitzaz Ahsan in writing The Indus Saga and The Making of Pakistan was to provide rational explanation for the creation of Pakistan and search for the civilisational basis of Pakistan rooted in the Indus person and the Indus region. It is a saga of discovering identity of Pakistan; in brief it is the discovery of Pakistan itself. Intellectually this is indeed a very challenging project that calls for construction of a sound theoretical framework in which the vast historical data could be meaningfully fitted into in order to explain the distinction between Al Sindh and Al Hind. Al Sindh is the Indus region, the present day Pakistan as distinguished from Al Hind that is India according to the author.
An intellectual inquiry of this kind calls for analytical method and interdisciplinary approach drawing upon various social sciences. Analytical method employs a systematic and exhaustive examination of a case under study and explanation and interpretation of the data so that it confirms the hypothesis. Mr Ahsan has essentially adopted historical-descriptive approach to his enquiry and fails to establish conformity between his hypothesis and the vast data presented. The book begins with espousing the civilisational differences between the Indus and India that could be dated back to more than five thousand years and ends with elaborating communal differences between the Hindus and Muslims at the end of the British rule in the mid-twentieth century. Are civilisational and communal differences one and the same? Is there no difference between faith and civilisation? The Indonesian President Abdur Rehman Wahid once remarked, ``our faith is Islam but civilisation is Indonesian.`` The author has been unable to sustain the original argument effectively and convincingly because he has not drawn the conceptual parameters of the Indus identity.
There is no denying of the fact that the Indus region was the place of intermingling of the cultures of Central Asia, Persia and even others from far off lands. And to this extent it was different from the Gangetic plains. But the kind of neat boundary (Gurdaspur-Kathiawar Salient) the author attempts to draw between the two regions is difficult to sustain. One needs to differentiate between the boundary and the frontier. Boundary is a geographical concept as it is drawn between the sovereign nations today. Frontier is a sociological concept and is difficult to demarcate. Today the boundary between India and Pakistan is clearly demarcated because they are two separate sovereign entities. This geographical border also demarcates socio-political arrangements and religio-philosophical moorings in both the countries. When Mr Ahsan talks about India as distinguished from Indus he is according to the former a monolithic uniformity that has never existed. I think the kind of differences that have existed between Indus and India have also existed within India. Even today there are debates about the differences (not political alone but also attitudinal and socio-cultural) between North and the South in India.
What is the Indus identity? What are the ingredients or parameters of identity of a community? Did Central Asian and Persian influence constitute the core of Indus identity? The author does not tell his readers what were the distinct contributions of Indus civilisation in these areas. Civilisation is not constituted by separate racial identity alone though it is certainly an important factor. Nor can civilisation be constituted only eclectically-drawing upon neighbouring cultures. A distinct identity of a community of people is constituted by their contribution to art, literature, philosophy and science, the technologies they employ and the distinctness of their social and political organisations. It is achievements in these areas that distinguish civilisation from civilisation. To establish an identity of a civilisation one needs to adopt an ideographic approach ie methods that highlight the unique elements of the individual phenomenon.
A pertinent question arises when the author equates the Indus region to Pakistan today. On p 8 he states Indus has been Pakistan. 1947 was only a reassertion of that reality. It means he is talking of unbroken civilisational continuity and also acceptance of the entire Indus heritage by Pakistan. Now this creates a problem. On p 42 he states Vedas belong to Indus and Mahabharata to India. Does Pakistan today accept Vedas as its literary or philosophical heritage? Moreover is the difference between Vedas and Mahabharata merely geographical? Or is it indicative of evolution or progression (the term is purely explanatory ie moving from one stage to another and not normative or value laden) of Aryan society? Then he mentions Taxila`s ancient luminaries -- Panini, the grammarian or Caraka, a master of Indian medicine and Kautilya of Arthshastra. Panini was Sanskrit grammarian and Caraka belonged to the Ayurvedic system of medicine. Is Sanskrit or Ayurveda accepted as Pakistani heritage? Or is it seen as Indian or more precisely Hindu? On p 109 he talks about Urdu, which derived its vocabulary from a number of Indus and central Asian languages as well as from Persian. Is he unaware of the Indian languages vocabulary adopted by Urdu? He forgets that the nouns and verbs and patterns of sentence construction of Urdu and Hindi are identical.
The author is deliberately ambiguous about the epoch from which the heritage is claimed. On the one hand the author sings paeans to the ancient culture of the Indus region and on the other he talks about the affinity of religious beliefs along with other affinities with Central Asia. Which religious beliefs does he have in mind? If these beliefs are Islamic-Sufi in origin then he is talking of the Indus only after it became Islamic, if they are Buddhist then the question is how much of that heritage is kept alive in Pakistan? So the moot question is to what extent the Indus heritage or civilisation include pre-Islamic non-Muslim heritage? How has the synthesis taken place? Which pre-Islamic features of civilisation have been assimilated or rejected? The author does not seem to think this discussion important to the central theme of the Saga.
Mr Ahsan gives a brief account of rebellions against Mughals in the Indus region (117-119) as an indication of the difference between the Indus and India. He writes about the brave efforts of Bairam Khan, and Abdullah against Akbar, of Jahangir`s son in 1606, of Dara Shikoh`s campaign against Aurangzeb launched from his base in Indus and of Sikhs against the Mughals. This is rather a flimsy ground for establishing a different civilisational personality of the Indus. Such revolts for political, familial, feudal and economic reasons have taken place everywhere in the long history of mankind. What is typically Indus about them? And what about the Rajputs and Marathas who fought against the Mughals in India?
It is common knowledge that Pakistan was demanded and created as the homeland for Indian Muslims. It was the assertion of Muslim identity and by no stretch of imagination of the Indus personality as the author would like his readers to believe. The latter part of the book bears ample testimony to this. Mr Ahsan writes about Hindu-Muslim differences at great length though once a while he tries to project these differences as Indus-India differences. For example on page 263 he states ``The predominantly feudal and agrarian society of Indus was to be repelled by the prospect of becoming subject to predominantly bourgeois India.`` But then just a little below on the same page he says that ``the Hindu community had a vigorous bourgeoisie while the Muslim society was still agriculture based and feudal``. He is using ``Hindi- Muslim`` interchangeably with ``Indus-India`` and making a travesty of his own stated objective. He has overlooked the fact that the Muslim League was founded in Dhaka more than a thousand miles away from the Indus region to protect the Muslim interest because the Bengali Muslims were the first ones to become aware of the differences between Hindu bourgeoisie and Muslim peasantry. Later the Muslim Zamindars of United Province afraid of losing their lands to the Congress land reform programmes supported the Muslim League joined by Muslims of Bihar and some pockets on the West coast of India. The Indus region was the last one to join the Pakistan movement. Mr Ahsan would like us to believe that the Pakistan movement originated in the Indus region and others merely joined it later. Unless one views Pakistan as a result primarily of Muslim demand one has no clue to understand the East Bengal becoming a part of Pakistan.
Despite the flaws and faults in the analysis and conclusions the strength of the book lies in its very lucid style that engages the reader. Small chapters make the reading easy without intimidating the reader. If the idea of the ``unity and indivisibility of the subcontinent is rooted in mythology and expounded by Nehru to the point of romance`` it cannot be countered effectively by creating new myths and equally romantic ideas about the origin and identity of Pakistan. One fully understands the dilemma of liberal and secular minded Pakistanis like Mr Ahsan. He wants to shift the ground but cannot. He wants to establish rational non-communal basis for the establishment of Pakistan. But history does not let him do so. One can sympathise with his intention but not with his formulations. They are unfortunately self-defeating.
The writer is head of the Political Science Department, Mumbai University, India
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#212 Posted by Eklavya on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
Ahmadb
``colonized subaltern subject is “irretrievably heterogeneous” and in the world of representations (textual or otherwise) can neither know nor speak itself``
Interesting. It seems that that heterogeneity must then make class-consciousness difficult to attain and sustain. Ditto with collective action `from below.` The only way to effect change in such a system would be for change to be driven by conscientious and sympathetic elites who can furnish organizing idealogies and resources. And these organizing idealogies must be necessarily diffuse in order to accommodate inherent heterogeneity of the people who are to be collectivized. Am I thinking along the right lines?
I hope people better read than I will chip in and tell us if they know of any studies of Indian Muslims in the context of subaltern studies. Seems like a fascinating opportunity for thesis work!
regards.
``colonized subaltern subject is “irretrievably heterogeneous” and in the world of representations (textual or otherwise) can neither know nor speak itself``
Interesting. It seems that that heterogeneity must then make class-consciousness difficult to attain and sustain. Ditto with collective action `from below.` The only way to effect change in such a system would be for change to be driven by conscientious and sympathetic elites who can furnish organizing idealogies and resources. And these organizing idealogies must be necessarily diffuse in order to accommodate inherent heterogeneity of the people who are to be collectivized. Am I thinking along the right lines?
I hope people better read than I will chip in and tell us if they know of any studies of Indian Muslims in the context of subaltern studies. Seems like a fascinating opportunity for thesis work!
regards.
#213 Posted by bong_dongs on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
There was some talk about Brian Cloughley earlier, readers here may want to read his latest on the Tehelka affair (and make up their mainds about his objectivity :-):
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2001-daily/17-03-2001/oped/o1.htm
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2001-daily/17-03-2001/oped/o1.htm
#214 Posted by scout on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
PM #191, `` But patriotism as an elixir for success?``
You omitted the last part of my sentence, which said ``if used correctly.`` By patriotism I don`t mean going off on wars and killing Indians. By patriotism, I meant making a name for yourself, through education, helping your country and countrymen in various ways. It is the need to do good that results in success.
``What does it matter, when a majority of the population is still below the poverty line?``
Sure it matters. Of course no Indian will admit this, but educated and talented Pakistanis have made a name for themselves abroad and in the country. And hopefully these very Pakistanis will help our country`s poor. I know I will after I complete my studies and earn some dinero.
One of my personal role models was a Pakistani multi-millionaire cardiologist in my University town. Every year, the man took a couple of months off and went to Bosnia, Pakistan, and other third world countries performing free operations. He established himself in the West first, used the knowledge and money he earned to help Pakistan in some way.
These types of people are in the shadows, they don`t blow their own horn, but they exist.
PM, I`ve always found you looking at the dark side of things. Please be more optimistic.
I don`t think I`ve read anything positive in your interacts for a long time.
You omitted the last part of my sentence, which said ``if used correctly.`` By patriotism I don`t mean going off on wars and killing Indians. By patriotism, I meant making a name for yourself, through education, helping your country and countrymen in various ways. It is the need to do good that results in success.
``What does it matter, when a majority of the population is still below the poverty line?``
Sure it matters. Of course no Indian will admit this, but educated and talented Pakistanis have made a name for themselves abroad and in the country. And hopefully these very Pakistanis will help our country`s poor. I know I will after I complete my studies and earn some dinero.
One of my personal role models was a Pakistani multi-millionaire cardiologist in my University town. Every year, the man took a couple of months off and went to Bosnia, Pakistan, and other third world countries performing free operations. He established himself in the West first, used the knowledge and money he earned to help Pakistan in some way.
These types of people are in the shadows, they don`t blow their own horn, but they exist.
PM, I`ve always found you looking at the dark side of things. Please be more optimistic.
I don`t think I`ve read anything positive in your interacts for a long time.
#215 Posted by PM on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
RSaxena #188
``Yeah, if you hadn`t come to the West whose most basic ideals you denounce while shamelessly eating its fruits. We all know what kinds of opportunities there are in Pakistan for women.``
I`m with scouty on this one (not that she needs my spport)... there`s a word for what you`re doing pal... `stereotyping`, and that`s not a far cry from the `b` word either. I don`t think scout has ever claimed membership in the Farangi_Kush club. The worst you can say about her is she tends to `equalize` a tad too much.
Methinks you need to step back a little and question yer motives every so often. And sure, feel free to advise me to do the same when needed.
If finding fault is *ALL * you can do, well, what does it say about you as a person?
Time for a `balance`, maybe? And some empathy?
rgds,
PM
``Yeah, if you hadn`t come to the West whose most basic ideals you denounce while shamelessly eating its fruits. We all know what kinds of opportunities there are in Pakistan for women.``
I`m with scouty on this one (not that she needs my spport)... there`s a word for what you`re doing pal... `stereotyping`, and that`s not a far cry from the `b` word either. I don`t think scout has ever claimed membership in the Farangi_Kush club. The worst you can say about her is she tends to `equalize` a tad too much.
Methinks you need to step back a little and question yer motives every so often. And sure, feel free to advise me to do the same when needed.
If finding fault is *ALL * you can do, well, what does it say about you as a person?
Time for a `balance`, maybe? And some empathy?
rgds,
PM
#216 Posted by Romair on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
There seems to be somewhat of an acceptance (incorrectly, in my opinion) that it is the respective militaries of India and Pakistan that are interested in keeping a cold war going on between the two countries. I have always felt it was the general population, supported by the politicians with the support of a portion of the military leadership, who then use the military against each other. Interesting article from Brian Cloughley that seems to somewhat point in that direction also, and points towards some vested interests in this arms race:
``India`s defence scandal
Brian Cloughley
To uphold the morale of the armed forces and to prevent further damage to our national defence, I have decided to resign from government,`` said Mr George Fernandes on March 15. In other words, he was found out. How very unfortunate for Pakistan, because Mr Fernandes, together with India`s Defence Research and Development Organisation, formed a vital tool in Pakistan`s arsenal...With a combination like that, there is little wonder India`s defences have been in a dreadful state, and will continue .....
What is deeply disturbing is that military officers have accepted cash for furthering deals involving sub-standard weapons. This saddens anyone who is conscious that the Indian armed forces are a bastion of honour and decency, whose officer corps is of high quality,.....
This is pretty sad stuff, but we must remember that it doesn`t go on everywhere, all the time. Most Indian officers are honourable fellows, just like their counterparts in Pakistan and in a few other countries.....
I believe that the Russian T-90 tank is unsuitable for Indian conditions and that its ammunition and target-acquisition system are sub-standard. I consider the Russian Su-30 aircraft programme to be a shambles that will set back the Indian Air Force by at least five years, and that involvement with Russia in the Advanced Technology Vessel (nuclear submarine) project is nothing less than disastrous. Further, the major surface combatants being obtained from Russia are inadequate to the point of criminal neglect in counter-missile and anti-submarine technology. The MiG-21 rebuild programme is a mega-crore scam involving avionics that would disgrace a 1930s biplane. The ``indigenous`` Light Combat Aircraft is a national prestige symbol that has cost billions and is the joke of the aviation world (or at least that part of it that has not benefited financially from cooperation). The ``indigenous`` Arjun tank has been rejected by the army, which is terrified that it might be forced to accept more than the 124 of these dinosaurs foisted upon it by the Defence Ministry. The Advanced Light Helicopter is neither advanced nor light, and will never see service with army, navy or air force, unless they are forced to take a token few; and the basic infantry weapon, the 5.56 mm rifle, is an embarrassing failure. The secure light combat radio does not exist, and there are no ground-detection radars. I could go on and on, listing the terrible deficiencies in India`s defences. They are amazing and most serious. And now we all know why.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)
Remaining article at http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
I had a chance to work with an Indian mechanical engineer, in the USA, who had worked on the IAF Mig-27 projects. The brother of one my Indian comp. sci. instructor was an IAF Mirage 2000 pilot. We had some discussions about the IAF lifestyle, however neither of them knew much about the defense purchasing process.
I have talked to other, perhaps pro-Pakistani, experts who have pointed to the inefficiency in the Indian Defense Ministry in making defense deals. It has been suggested that they exercise too much influence in forcing the Indian generals to accept sub-standard equipment. The hundreds of millions spent on indigenous development of aircraft doesn`t seem to be working out either. Cloughley has mentioned these points in his articles.
Through personal experience, I know that Pakistan has actually been quite accurate in picking out good defense equipment. I am sure there is corruption on the Pakistan side, as well, however the choice of equipment chosen, barring a few exceptions, with respect to the funds available, has been quite good; in fact very good, in my opinion. The PAF has one of the best flight safety records in the world (please do not ask me for statistics or references, since I do not keep all of them at my fingertips). Pakistani indigenous defence projects have been quite efficient, as well. Pakistan, unlike India, has not over-extended itself in attempting to go beyond its capabilities in indigenous defense production. Pakistan basically takes the best of breed equipment from China, USA, France, and England and assembles it in Pakistan, instead of trying to build in from scratch, which is what India seems to be attempting.
Keeping that in mind, is the Indian Defense Ministry overly influential in the affairs of its military, specifically in defense purchases? And does that hamper the effectiveness of the Indian armed forces greatly? This of course, would be of great significance to the Pakistani decision makers.
``India`s defence scandal
Brian Cloughley
To uphold the morale of the armed forces and to prevent further damage to our national defence, I have decided to resign from government,`` said Mr George Fernandes on March 15. In other words, he was found out. How very unfortunate for Pakistan, because Mr Fernandes, together with India`s Defence Research and Development Organisation, formed a vital tool in Pakistan`s arsenal...With a combination like that, there is little wonder India`s defences have been in a dreadful state, and will continue .....
What is deeply disturbing is that military officers have accepted cash for furthering deals involving sub-standard weapons. This saddens anyone who is conscious that the Indian armed forces are a bastion of honour and decency, whose officer corps is of high quality,.....
This is pretty sad stuff, but we must remember that it doesn`t go on everywhere, all the time. Most Indian officers are honourable fellows, just like their counterparts in Pakistan and in a few other countries.....
I believe that the Russian T-90 tank is unsuitable for Indian conditions and that its ammunition and target-acquisition system are sub-standard. I consider the Russian Su-30 aircraft programme to be a shambles that will set back the Indian Air Force by at least five years, and that involvement with Russia in the Advanced Technology Vessel (nuclear submarine) project is nothing less than disastrous. Further, the major surface combatants being obtained from Russia are inadequate to the point of criminal neglect in counter-missile and anti-submarine technology. The MiG-21 rebuild programme is a mega-crore scam involving avionics that would disgrace a 1930s biplane. The ``indigenous`` Light Combat Aircraft is a national prestige symbol that has cost billions and is the joke of the aviation world (or at least that part of it that has not benefited financially from cooperation). The ``indigenous`` Arjun tank has been rejected by the army, which is terrified that it might be forced to accept more than the 124 of these dinosaurs foisted upon it by the Defence Ministry. The Advanced Light Helicopter is neither advanced nor light, and will never see service with army, navy or air force, unless they are forced to take a token few; and the basic infantry weapon, the 5.56 mm rifle, is an embarrassing failure. The secure light combat radio does not exist, and there are no ground-detection radars. I could go on and on, listing the terrible deficiencies in India`s defences. They are amazing and most serious. And now we all know why.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)
Remaining article at http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html
I had a chance to work with an Indian mechanical engineer, in the USA, who had worked on the IAF Mig-27 projects. The brother of one my Indian comp. sci. instructor was an IAF Mirage 2000 pilot. We had some discussions about the IAF lifestyle, however neither of them knew much about the defense purchasing process.
I have talked to other, perhaps pro-Pakistani, experts who have pointed to the inefficiency in the Indian Defense Ministry in making defense deals. It has been suggested that they exercise too much influence in forcing the Indian generals to accept sub-standard equipment. The hundreds of millions spent on indigenous development of aircraft doesn`t seem to be working out either. Cloughley has mentioned these points in his articles.
Through personal experience, I know that Pakistan has actually been quite accurate in picking out good defense equipment. I am sure there is corruption on the Pakistan side, as well, however the choice of equipment chosen, barring a few exceptions, with respect to the funds available, has been quite good; in fact very good, in my opinion. The PAF has one of the best flight safety records in the world (please do not ask me for statistics or references, since I do not keep all of them at my fingertips). Pakistani indigenous defence projects have been quite efficient, as well. Pakistan, unlike India, has not over-extended itself in attempting to go beyond its capabilities in indigenous defense production. Pakistan basically takes the best of breed equipment from China, USA, France, and England and assembles it in Pakistan, instead of trying to build in from scratch, which is what India seems to be attempting.
Keeping that in mind, is the Indian Defense Ministry overly influential in the affairs of its military, specifically in defense purchases? And does that hamper the effectiveness of the Indian armed forces greatly? This of course, would be of great significance to the Pakistani decision makers.
#217 Posted by Pardesi on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
The Friday Times article:
If the writer would have gone to see a few downtrodden hindu families he perhaps would not have found any difference in their material well being compared to muslims (ofcourse he would not have found pakistani flags there!) .. he also might have then concluded that in india there is a wide gap between rich and poor whether they are hindus or muslims .. but then it would not have been an exciting article for pakistani readers because they have vast differences in their own rich and poor folks.
With friends like pakistan, indian muslims do not need any enemy, whether they have pakistani flags or not .. sikhs and christians are moving forward along with others because they realize that they do not have any other home .. no one else is going to come to their rescue and they have to make it here .. educated, broadminded muslims also know it and are fully participating in improving their lot just like others .. unfortunately, it’s the poor and illiterate who are emotionally stuck with pure islamiyat, and hence this romantic love for pakistan, and can not adjust quickly with new realities.
Dalits get special treatment since india owed them a lot due to centuries of wrongs by hindu society .. indians will not go for a quota system for poor muslims who consider themselves closer to pakistan then india .. if indian and pakistani relationship had been like usa/canada, no one would have cared about natural emotional ties, but when a real war is in progress, year after year, forget it.
I remember 40 years back in central india, where I was growing up, I had to walk 2-3 miles to school and had to pass through a poor muslim section .. this area was virtual pakistan .. radios on the chai shops were always blaring pakistani news with all of that mashrki and makrabi time, religious sermons and ofcourse music .. anytime there was communal disturbance, the first one to report was pakistan radio since it was believed that muslims in the area had radio contact with pakistan.
Lack of desire to mingle with other communities impacts poor muslims’ decision to not send their children to far off engineering, medical or other professional schools .. i guess that explains fewer number of professionals.
One does not have to be rocket scientist to figure out that you have to get along with majority and take ownership of the nation to win respect .. highly successful muslims are prime example of doing exactly that .. however poor muslims are not learning that fast enough while educational gap is widening .. they have to get their emotional roots in modern india and whatever else goes with that e.g., modern education .. no one, other than themselves, can help them in that respect.
If the writer would have gone to see a few downtrodden hindu families he perhaps would not have found any difference in their material well being compared to muslims (ofcourse he would not have found pakistani flags there!) .. he also might have then concluded that in india there is a wide gap between rich and poor whether they are hindus or muslims .. but then it would not have been an exciting article for pakistani readers because they have vast differences in their own rich and poor folks.
With friends like pakistan, indian muslims do not need any enemy, whether they have pakistani flags or not .. sikhs and christians are moving forward along with others because they realize that they do not have any other home .. no one else is going to come to their rescue and they have to make it here .. educated, broadminded muslims also know it and are fully participating in improving their lot just like others .. unfortunately, it’s the poor and illiterate who are emotionally stuck with pure islamiyat, and hence this romantic love for pakistan, and can not adjust quickly with new realities.
Dalits get special treatment since india owed them a lot due to centuries of wrongs by hindu society .. indians will not go for a quota system for poor muslims who consider themselves closer to pakistan then india .. if indian and pakistani relationship had been like usa/canada, no one would have cared about natural emotional ties, but when a real war is in progress, year after year, forget it.
I remember 40 years back in central india, where I was growing up, I had to walk 2-3 miles to school and had to pass through a poor muslim section .. this area was virtual pakistan .. radios on the chai shops were always blaring pakistani news with all of that mashrki and makrabi time, religious sermons and ofcourse music .. anytime there was communal disturbance, the first one to report was pakistan radio since it was believed that muslims in the area had radio contact with pakistan.
Lack of desire to mingle with other communities impacts poor muslims’ decision to not send their children to far off engineering, medical or other professional schools .. i guess that explains fewer number of professionals.
One does not have to be rocket scientist to figure out that you have to get along with majority and take ownership of the nation to win respect .. highly successful muslims are prime example of doing exactly that .. however poor muslims are not learning that fast enough while educational gap is widening .. they have to get their emotional roots in modern india and whatever else goes with that e.g., modern education .. no one, other than themselves, can help them in that respect.
#218 Posted by ylh on March 16, 2001 8:08:31 pm
Dearest Rsaxena,
My mother is 53 years old, a Doctor, and a top ranking bureaucrat in Pakistan. There are many like her in Pakistan. My mother`s name is Dr Durr e Shahwar Hamdani. She came from a very conservative feudal Shiite background, topped the Rawalpindi Board Examinations and then went to a predominantly male King Edward Medical College.
Either you have some misgivings about Pakistan, or you are doing this to win an argument. Whatever the case I hope you will acknowledge the fact that women in Pakistan have in instances shone so brightly, that one is forced to wonder if Pakistan was run by women its manifest destiny towards what we aim would have been achieved much earlier. It is my personal belief and prediction that Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari is going to be one of those shining female ``stars`` on Pakistan`s horizon.
I also urge you to read Mr Jinnah`s ``Its a crime against Humanity that our women are locked up in the houses`` speech of 1944.
-YLH
My mother is 53 years old, a Doctor, and a top ranking bureaucrat in Pakistan. There are many like her in Pakistan. My mother`s name is Dr Durr e Shahwar Hamdani. She came from a very conservative feudal Shiite background, topped the Rawalpindi Board Examinations and then went to a predominantly male King Edward Medical College.
Either you have some misgivings about Pakistan, or you are doing this to win an argument. Whatever the case I hope you will acknowledge the fact that women in Pakistan have in instances shone so brightly, that one is forced to wonder if Pakistan was run by women its manifest destiny towards what we aim would have been achieved much earlier. It is my personal belief and prediction that Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari is going to be one of those shining female ``stars`` on Pakistan`s horizon.
I also urge you to read Mr Jinnah`s ``Its a crime against Humanity that our women are locked up in the houses`` speech of 1944.
-YLH
#219 Posted by ahmadb on March 16, 2001 8:43:27 pm
In response to egalitarian-brahmin (Reply # 176)
Dear Friend:
Your statement: “. . . have you ever taken time to look up the statistics on the education trends in the Hindu and Muslim civilizations in ``United India`` in 1947? Hindus were overwhelmingly better represented, not just by numbers, but by proportion, in India`s educated bourgeoisie compared to Muslims. The trends haven`t changed much since then.”
My reply: Let me first point out that “civilization” is not an appropriate word to describe two leading religious groups within a modern/modernizing nation-state (read state-nation), though we could talk about the Hindu and Muslims civilizations in a very broad sense. As a child, I was aware of the fact that the Indian Hindus had taken a head-start in modern public education. Your last sentence provides food for thought. If it is so, why the trends haven’t changed during the past 53 years in a democratic, secular Indian state? I know, we can’t provide simple answers.
Your statement: “I don`t think the Indian educational system discriminates in providing education to the masses. It has more to do with the general Muslim mindset vis-a-vis academia.”
My reply: It is good that you (personally) don’t think “the Indian educational system discriminates in providing education to the masses.” But, is this a myth or reality? If reality, could you provide some sort of supporting evidence?
I am prepared to accept your thesis of “the general Muslim mindset vis-a-vis academia”. But this raises another question: Why the Indian Muslim’s has not changed so far? Are they really at par with the Pakistani Muslims?
Your statement: “Hindus did away with the problems of their poverty by having less kids but making sure they get a decent education while Muslims apparently didn`t follow suit - be it Pakistan or India. Also look up the children/family rates in Indian Hindus versus Pakistan/Indian Muslims and you`ll notice a (kind of expected and rather apparent) pattern.”
My reply: I tend to agree that the Indian Hindus have generally been much more progressive than the Indian Muslims. But, we cannot over-generalize and over-emphasize this point to address the attitudes of the Indian Muslims toward public education. And, even if I accept your argument about religious demographic patterns/processes, India should have been exploding with Indian Muslim population. Could you provide us census data for the growth of Muslim population (both general and by socio-economic status) in India vis a vis other religious communities?
As far as Pakistan is concerned, Pakistan’s over-investment in the so-called defense has imposed heavy opportunity costs to human development. Yet, we have a reasonably large number of college and university educated people in Pakistan (the quality may or may not be at part with the Indian situation). I, personally, am not satisfied with the progress of Pakistan, in general, and the progress of education, in particular.
Your statement: “As per your University`s example, you would be surprised if you knew how many Indian Muslims enroll every year at the University of Illinois. Despite the fact that they are, by wont, more inclinated towards joining the MSA (Muslim Students Assocation) rather than the ISA (Indian Students Assocation) by virtue of their preferring to respect religious boundaries over national boundaries, a census would reveal a huge Indian Muslim body here.”
My reply: We can divide the Indian Muslim students into three main categories: (1) children of the expats in the US, Middle East, etc.; (2) children of relatively well-off Indian citizens; and (3) children of Indian citizens who come to study in the US on a competitive basis.
Which University of Illinois are you in (Urbana-Champagne or its Chicago campus)? In my University example, I was talking about students belonging to the last category. Finally, could you explain why the Indian Muslims at the University of Illinois, as identified by you, are more inclined toward the MSA and not the ISA?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Friend:
Your statement: “. . . have you ever taken time to look up the statistics on the education trends in the Hindu and Muslim civilizations in ``United India`` in 1947? Hindus were overwhelmingly better represented, not just by numbers, but by proportion, in India`s educated bourgeoisie compared to Muslims. The trends haven`t changed much since then.”
My reply: Let me first point out that “civilization” is not an appropriate word to describe two leading religious groups within a modern/modernizing nation-state (read state-nation), though we could talk about the Hindu and Muslims civilizations in a very broad sense. As a child, I was aware of the fact that the Indian Hindus had taken a head-start in modern public education. Your last sentence provides food for thought. If it is so, why the trends haven’t changed during the past 53 years in a democratic, secular Indian state? I know, we can’t provide simple answers.
Your statement: “I don`t think the Indian educational system discriminates in providing education to the masses. It has more to do with the general Muslim mindset vis-a-vis academia.”
My reply: It is good that you (personally) don’t think “the Indian educational system discriminates in providing education to the masses.” But, is this a myth or reality? If reality, could you provide some sort of supporting evidence?
I am prepared to accept your thesis of “the general Muslim mindset vis-a-vis academia”. But this raises another question: Why the Indian Muslim’s has not changed so far? Are they really at par with the Pakistani Muslims?
Your statement: “Hindus did away with the problems of their poverty by having less kids but making sure they get a decent education while Muslims apparently didn`t follow suit - be it Pakistan or India. Also look up the children/family rates in Indian Hindus versus Pakistan/Indian Muslims and you`ll notice a (kind of expected and rather apparent) pattern.”
My reply: I tend to agree that the Indian Hindus have generally been much more progressive than the Indian Muslims. But, we cannot over-generalize and over-emphasize this point to address the attitudes of the Indian Muslims toward public education. And, even if I accept your argument about religious demographic patterns/processes, India should have been exploding with Indian Muslim population. Could you provide us census data for the growth of Muslim population (both general and by socio-economic status) in India vis a vis other religious communities?
As far as Pakistan is concerned, Pakistan’s over-investment in the so-called defense has imposed heavy opportunity costs to human development. Yet, we have a reasonably large number of college and university educated people in Pakistan (the quality may or may not be at part with the Indian situation). I, personally, am not satisfied with the progress of Pakistan, in general, and the progress of education, in particular.
Your statement: “As per your University`s example, you would be surprised if you knew how many Indian Muslims enroll every year at the University of Illinois. Despite the fact that they are, by wont, more inclinated towards joining the MSA (Muslim Students Assocation) rather than the ISA (Indian Students Assocation) by virtue of their preferring to respect religious boundaries over national boundaries, a census would reveal a huge Indian Muslim body here.”
My reply: We can divide the Indian Muslim students into three main categories: (1) children of the expats in the US, Middle East, etc.; (2) children of relatively well-off Indian citizens; and (3) children of Indian citizens who come to study in the US on a competitive basis.
Which University of Illinois are you in (Urbana-Champagne or its Chicago campus)? In my University example, I was talking about students belonging to the last category. Finally, could you explain why the Indian Muslims at the University of Illinois, as identified by you, are more inclined toward the MSA and not the ISA?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#220 Posted by ahmadb on March 16, 2001 8:55:35 pm
In response to Eklavya (Reply # 213)
Dear Eklavya:
Your statement: It seems that that heterogeneity must then make class-consciousness difficult to attain and sustain. Ditto with collective action `from below.` The only way to effect change in such a system would be for change to be driven by conscientious and sympathetic elites who can furnish organizing idealogies and resources. And these organizing idealogies must be necessarily diffuse in order to accommodate inherent heterogeneity of the people who are to be collectivized.``
My reply: Good analysis! You indeed are well educated. May I know, what is your academic background? The kind of elite you are talking about, Gramsci calls them ``organic intellectuals``.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Eklavya:
Your statement: It seems that that heterogeneity must then make class-consciousness difficult to attain and sustain. Ditto with collective action `from below.` The only way to effect change in such a system would be for change to be driven by conscientious and sympathetic elites who can furnish organizing idealogies and resources. And these organizing idealogies must be necessarily diffuse in order to accommodate inherent heterogeneity of the people who are to be collectivized.``
My reply: Good analysis! You indeed are well educated. May I know, what is your academic background? The kind of elite you are talking about, Gramsci calls them ``organic intellectuals``.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#221 Posted by fuzair on March 16, 2001 9:46:53 pm
Re: Ahmadb and Eklayva
Interesting. Are we then talking about a post-modern version of Lenin`s ``Vanguard of the Proletariat`` when we are talking about sympathetic elites? If we are talking about ``collectivizing`` inherently heterogenous people, are we then tossing multiculturalism into the dustbin of history (where I must admit I think it belongs)? I agree with Desmond Morris that there is often little (other than to satisfy one`s curiosity) to learn from ``failed cultures`` but isn`t this going too far? I mean, who is going to provide the necessary vision to enlighten the heterogenous masses? Is a Rousseauian ``Lawgiver`` going to come down and enlighten all of us ``heterogenous`` rabble who refuse to attain class consciousness? Aren`t you essentially arguing that a Gramscian ``hegemony`` has to be maintained over the unenlightened boobs who form the unwashed masses so that they can be forced to see what is in their best interests?
It seems that scratch a Marxist/Socialist/Conflict-Theorist and you find a totalitarian. Capitalism is far from perfect but at least it allows some people to be free, which is more than can be said for the other side. I am reminded of something that I read a long time ago in the WSJ: Marx, like all great lovers of humanity, hated people. This was because people refused to behave according to his dictums. However, unlike Rousseau, he realized that you couldn`t `force` any one to be free so socialism was a utopia that would never be realized.
I apologize for the tone of this post but this is one of my pet peeves. It was not actually my intention to offend Prof. Ahmad or Eklayva, both of whom I respect considerably, but I fear that they are horribly wrong on this point.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: the discussion on Muslim backwardness in India
May I suggest a delving into Thomas Sowell`s superb body of work on why some minority groups do extremely well and others fare so miserably. He is far more enlightening than than any dozen specialists on subaltern studies. Essentially what subaltern studies does is give people an EXCUSE to justify their own failures. While this may not have been the initial impetus behind it (probably it was to bring out hitherto unknown discourses), this is what it often degenerates into.
If I may quote a dead white male:
``The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings.``
Interesting. Are we then talking about a post-modern version of Lenin`s ``Vanguard of the Proletariat`` when we are talking about sympathetic elites? If we are talking about ``collectivizing`` inherently heterogenous people, are we then tossing multiculturalism into the dustbin of history (where I must admit I think it belongs)? I agree with Desmond Morris that there is often little (other than to satisfy one`s curiosity) to learn from ``failed cultures`` but isn`t this going too far? I mean, who is going to provide the necessary vision to enlighten the heterogenous masses? Is a Rousseauian ``Lawgiver`` going to come down and enlighten all of us ``heterogenous`` rabble who refuse to attain class consciousness? Aren`t you essentially arguing that a Gramscian ``hegemony`` has to be maintained over the unenlightened boobs who form the unwashed masses so that they can be forced to see what is in their best interests?
It seems that scratch a Marxist/Socialist/Conflict-Theorist and you find a totalitarian. Capitalism is far from perfect but at least it allows some people to be free, which is more than can be said for the other side. I am reminded of something that I read a long time ago in the WSJ: Marx, like all great lovers of humanity, hated people. This was because people refused to behave according to his dictums. However, unlike Rousseau, he realized that you couldn`t `force` any one to be free so socialism was a utopia that would never be realized.
I apologize for the tone of this post but this is one of my pet peeves. It was not actually my intention to offend Prof. Ahmad or Eklayva, both of whom I respect considerably, but I fear that they are horribly wrong on this point.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: the discussion on Muslim backwardness in India
May I suggest a delving into Thomas Sowell`s superb body of work on why some minority groups do extremely well and others fare so miserably. He is far more enlightening than than any dozen specialists on subaltern studies. Essentially what subaltern studies does is give people an EXCUSE to justify their own failures. While this may not have been the initial impetus behind it (probably it was to bring out hitherto unknown discourses), this is what it often degenerates into.
If I may quote a dead white male:
``The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings.``
#222 Posted by Zahra on March 16, 2001 11:57:03 pm
Yasser:
You ought to be very proud of it!
[Dearest Rsaxena: My mother is 53 years old, a Doctor, and a top ranking bureaucrat in Pakistan. There are many like her in Pakistan. My mother`s name is Dr Durr e Shahwar Hamdani. She came from a very conservative feudal Shiite background, topped the Rawalpindi Board Examinations and then went to a predominantly male King Edward Medical College.Either you have some misgivings about Pakistan, or you are doing this to win an argument. Whatever the case I hope you will acknowledge the fact that women in Pakistan have in instances shone so brightly, that one is forced to wonder if Pakistan was run by women its manifest destiny towards what we aim would have been achieved much earlier. It is my personal belief and prediction that Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari is going to be one of those shining female ``stars`` on Pakistan`s horizon.]
I suggest the ones who have any qualms about Pakistani Women and their capabilities better be asked about their women`s status. You should be politely cross questioning thy opponent on the [level of education/freedom of thought and expression]their mothers, sisters and daughters had[My emphasis lies on ``politeness]. By knowing that, you will learn a lot about the on-going hoopla and the psyche behind that.
Hope that helps.
You ought to be very proud of it!
[Dearest Rsaxena: My mother is 53 years old, a Doctor, and a top ranking bureaucrat in Pakistan. There are many like her in Pakistan. My mother`s name is Dr Durr e Shahwar Hamdani. She came from a very conservative feudal Shiite background, topped the Rawalpindi Board Examinations and then went to a predominantly male King Edward Medical College.Either you have some misgivings about Pakistan, or you are doing this to win an argument. Whatever the case I hope you will acknowledge the fact that women in Pakistan have in instances shone so brightly, that one is forced to wonder if Pakistan was run by women its manifest destiny towards what we aim would have been achieved much earlier. It is my personal belief and prediction that Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari is going to be one of those shining female ``stars`` on Pakistan`s horizon.]
I suggest the ones who have any qualms about Pakistani Women and their capabilities better be asked about their women`s status. You should be politely cross questioning thy opponent on the [level of education/freedom of thought and expression]their mothers, sisters and daughters had[My emphasis lies on ``politeness]. By knowing that, you will learn a lot about the on-going hoopla and the psyche behind that.
Hope that helps.
#223 Posted by ahmadb on March 17, 2001 1:55:23 am
In response to Fuzair (Reply # 222)
Dear Fuzair:
We are once again coming close to a topic that I have so far avoided to discuss on the Chowk.
I think, you have jumped too fast to reach some of your conclusions. For example, Gramsci`s organic intellectuals develop organically from within the working class(es). And, Gramsci`s theorization does not stop at hegemony, it allows the possibility of counter-hegemonic struggles.
As far as capitalism is concerned, we need to view it at various geographical scales from the local to the global. Capitalism empowers some but make some others powerless. Capitalist development is, therefore, inherently uneven and unequal. Money and power indeed “allows some people to be free”. But, let us not confuse capitalism with democracy, freedom, or human rights. And the kind of capitalism that you seem to admire is not at all unfettered capitalism.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Fuzair:
We are once again coming close to a topic that I have so far avoided to discuss on the Chowk.
I think, you have jumped too fast to reach some of your conclusions. For example, Gramsci`s organic intellectuals develop organically from within the working class(es). And, Gramsci`s theorization does not stop at hegemony, it allows the possibility of counter-hegemonic struggles.
As far as capitalism is concerned, we need to view it at various geographical scales from the local to the global. Capitalism empowers some but make some others powerless. Capitalist development is, therefore, inherently uneven and unequal. Money and power indeed “allows some people to be free”. But, let us not confuse capitalism with democracy, freedom, or human rights. And the kind of capitalism that you seem to admire is not at all unfettered capitalism.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#224 Posted by PM on March 17, 2001 1:55:48 am
Yasser, re. your post to ``Dear Rsaxena``
Some big bro advice, if I may: Don`t take him seriously enough to have to try and convince him about anything.
His only purpose on the chowk is to present exaggerated scenarios, though he`s known to make a piercing observation every now and again. He`s accpeted that as his role, and I`m sure even he himself doesn`t expect anyone to take him too seriously when he`s drawing the long bow.
Your time and energy can surely be spent more productively.
rgds,
PM
PS. Thanks for replying to my ealier post. I am sill waiting to see if Ms Sarwari would do me the honour too.
Some big bro advice, if I may: Don`t take him seriously enough to have to try and convince him about anything.
His only purpose on the chowk is to present exaggerated scenarios, though he`s known to make a piercing observation every now and again. He`s accpeted that as his role, and I`m sure even he himself doesn`t expect anyone to take him too seriously when he`s drawing the long bow.
Your time and energy can surely be spent more productively.
rgds,
PM
PS. Thanks for replying to my ealier post. I am sill waiting to see if Ms Sarwari would do me the honour too.
#225 Posted by PM on March 17, 2001 1:55:48 am
scout:
You`re right, I`ve been focusing on the dark side of things lately. You know, it`s a dirty job but... :)
The truth is, I often feel that given the situation wrt Pak, `optimism` would be denial of reality.
Your story about generous doctors is touching, but should not ....aaarrggghh...never mind... I won`t say it! :)
Good luck to you making a difference, wherever you may find fate takes you.
rgds,
You`re right, I`ve been focusing on the dark side of things lately. You know, it`s a dirty job but... :)
The truth is, I often feel that given the situation wrt Pak, `optimism` would be denial of reality.
Your story about generous doctors is touching, but should not ....aaarrggghh...never mind... I won`t say it! :)
Good luck to you making a difference, wherever you may find fate takes you.
rgds,
#226 Posted by krashid on March 17, 2001 1:55:48 am
Concerned #
On your response.
You can look it this way.
The dilemma of Pakistan is what? Is it a Nation or Islamic state? It is not solved yet and I don`t think it will be solved.
Because the concept of Islamic brotherhood (inspite of all infightings) is very strong among Muslims.
You can see this recently when West is unable to understand the behaviour of Arab nations vis a vis Iraq. Or behaviour of Muslim masses of Iran during bombing on Iraq.
This is one aspect.
2nd aspect is related to the condition or perceived discrimination of Muslims in India. How can you expect a group of people to assimilate in mainstream by force.
The only way I see the Indian Muslims assimilating in mainstream is not by negative approach, but by positive approach.
Simply put they cannot be Indian if the sole aim of India is to destroy and destruct Pakistan.
India is the mirror image of Pakistan in this respect where minorities are seen with suspicion by the majority which is more related to Ummah concept of Islam or Hinduism.
As many Hindus are in Arab world, but they always feels affiliation towards India. Same is the case in US. Do Indian Hindu feel affiliation towards Pakistani Hindus? Same way what is wrong if Indian Muslim feels affiliation towards Pakistani Muslim.
So contrary to your thinking, the continuous friction between India and Pakistan is to the detriment of India because of the make up of India. While Pakistan with its very small Hindu minority can deal with the situation with much ease.
On your response.
You can look it this way.
The dilemma of Pakistan is what? Is it a Nation or Islamic state? It is not solved yet and I don`t think it will be solved.
Because the concept of Islamic brotherhood (inspite of all infightings) is very strong among Muslims.
You can see this recently when West is unable to understand the behaviour of Arab nations vis a vis Iraq. Or behaviour of Muslim masses of Iran during bombing on Iraq.
This is one aspect.
2nd aspect is related to the condition or perceived discrimination of Muslims in India. How can you expect a group of people to assimilate in mainstream by force.
The only way I see the Indian Muslims assimilating in mainstream is not by negative approach, but by positive approach.
Simply put they cannot be Indian if the sole aim of India is to destroy and destruct Pakistan.
India is the mirror image of Pakistan in this respect where minorities are seen with suspicion by the majority which is more related to Ummah concept of Islam or Hinduism.
As many Hindus are in Arab world, but they always feels affiliation towards India. Same is the case in US. Do Indian Hindu feel affiliation towards Pakistani Hindus? Same way what is wrong if Indian Muslim feels affiliation towards Pakistani Muslim.
So contrary to your thinking, the continuous friction between India and Pakistan is to the detriment of India because of the make up of India. While Pakistan with its very small Hindu minority can deal with the situation with much ease.