The Meaning of Pakistan

ahmadb #221

Organic intellectuals! That is a beautiful and apt description.

I am an engineer/manager by trade who can`t stop envying sociologists, economists, and the like. Since I have had no training as a social scientist, I read authentic social scientists like you with absolute pleasure and respect.

On a personal basis, I am fascinated by the processes of large-scale long-term transformation in human societies. I often wonder how one can make meaningful interventions to bring about desired systemic changes. The challenge would appear to be enormous and unsurmountable: the efficacy of individual action is limited in both time and space; social systems are broad, durable, and all encompassing. How then can an individual (or even a group of individuals) change a system from within?

PM #216,

I take back my last three sentences of #215.

:)

Fuzair #222

My dear friend, you have called my bluff outright! As I wrote in my last post, I am no social scientist, and have not read any of these authors you mentioned! I think I get a tiny drift of what you are saying and do have some ideas. However, I have to leave early tomorrow morning for a week-long visit. I better go and pack my clothes :)

Meet you all in here later.

Rsux-hyena #210,

Where do you live? I`m going to get my jamaat-e-islaami posse to come hunt you down...

But seriously, there are enough desi idiots in this world, do something different for a change buddy boy.

Oh, I can`t seem to leave without dashing off a few sentences.

Fuzair, it seems to me that the issue of how systemic change can be brought about is as relevant to capitalist societies as to totalitarian/non-capitalist ones. The powerful `law-giver` leading unwashed masses of non-capitalist systems is the visionary, transformational leader of the modern corporations, many of which are bigger than a great many non-capitalist nation states.

The form changes, the basic issues remain similar.

I know you will easily demolish my analogy, but I will happily not be able to read here for about a week :)

See ya later!

Re: Reply #: 198

macgupta,

Thanks. That was very informative. I knew that educational opportunities for minorities (this includes Christians as well; some of the best schools in Madras are run by christians)is better in Tamil Nadu than in other states. Hope the other states follow this example.

sridhar

Pakistani students in the US

(Indians help Pakistanis..........

Dawn, Saturday March 17

The letter appeared in DAWN

I AM an undergraduate student at a university in the USA, and it is impossible to ignore the differences between the way in which Pakistani and Indian students represent their respective countries. Even though the Pakistani student community here is smaller than the Indian student body, no one seems to make the effort to visually represent Pakistan.

The South Asian Students` Association on the campus is composed entirely of Indian officer-bearers not because there is any sort of discrimination against us, but because no Pakistani wants to take out the time to run for that position. The annual International Festival, which is one of the best ways that people can represent their countries, is coming up in April. Almost all the Indian students on the campus have willingly offered to help represent India in any way they can. There are more than enough Indian students lending traditional Indian items for display and offering to man their display table and there are plenty of Indian students willing to wear their Indian outfits for the International Fashion Show.

Indian students run for position on the various student councils and for positions in various student organisations. They know that creating the right ``image`` is all about creating the right impression in the public eye and they are willing to work at it. They care.

In sharp contrast, I have had to write, call and persistently urge the Pakistani students to help out. No one has replied. No one wants to take the time out to show what our national dress is like or to lend anything that could represent Pakistan. The total lack of response has been surprising. I would have thought that we would have been a little more enthusiastic about representing our country. Ironically enough, my Indian and American friends are the ones who have offered to help me find Pakistani cultural items, contact other universities, man the display table and take part in the International Fashion Show. Do we care enough?

It is all very well to say we are patriotic or to say that we are proud of being Pakistanis. What sort of pride are we talking about if we are not willing to make that little extra effort to help create a positive view of our homeland?

We celebrate our Independence Day and other national holidays with such fervour. The people of Pakistan already know that we have something to be proud of. Why not put in even half that effort into letting the international community know as well?

NADA SIDDIQUI

Princeton

In response to Eklavya (Reply # 228)
Dear Eklavya:

Your statement: ``On a personal basis, I am fascinated by the processes of large-scale long-term transformation in human societies. I often wonder how one can make meaningful interventions to bring about desired systemic changes. The challenge would appear to be enormous and unsurmountable: the efficacy of individual action is limited in both time and space; social systems are broad, durable, and all encompassing. How then can an individual (or even a group of individuals) change a system from within?``

My reply: Quiet remarkable. I can`t believe that you are not a social scientist (even if you are not formally trained as one). Please let me know the kind of social scientists you have read so far (just a few examples).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Scout 179,

that was a severe short changing of your potential, of what the migration of your parents have done to you. You should think of Asim Premji, one time the second richest man in the world, his fathre was offred the job of a minister by none other than Jinnah, he decided to stay in india, and see where his son is. The good part is you still appear to have some fir left in you, and could prove Asim Premji`s father wrong.

By the way, is there any old freedom fighters left in any political positions in pakistan. Is there any pensions for freedom fighters.

Just asking.

regards

jay

Aisha,

The following can contribute to the mosaic of pak identity that you are creating. From dawn of today.

Pakistan economy rated as fifth riskiest

By Masood Haider

NEW YORK, March 16: Despite government`s efforts to persuade the international businesses to invest in Pakistan, the country continues to be rated as one of the riskiest economies of the world.

In the latest quarterly survey by The Economist which assesses the risks of investing in 100 countries, Pakistan is rated as the fifth riskiest country to invest in, preceded only by Iraq, Myanmar, Kenya, and Indonesia.

PM #226, ``Your story about generous doctors is touching, but should not....aaarrggghh...never mind... I won`t say it! :)``

Thanks for refraining :)

Re:ylh#195

I agree with you about Jinnah and the Cabinet Mission plan. However, I believe that Jinnah settled for a very suboptimal solution in the end. If he had analyzed the history of past 1000 years, he would have realized that muslims were always in a minority, yet they had effortlessly ruled India for hundreds of years. How did that happen ? Military conquest can only get you started. However, if you want to sustain the rule, you have to form political alliances. That is exactly what muslim rulers did in the past. They knew that hindus were completely divided along caste, region, language etc. All they had to do was to ally with a section of hindus like the rajputs and rule India effortlessly. Hindus did not mind either because their own leaders were ineffective and squabbled among themselves, while muslim rulers provided strong, stable regimes.

Jinnah could have used exactly the same technique by forming alliances with a section of hindus such as the backward castes. Then the Muslim League could have won power democratically over entire India. Instead he panicked at the perceived unity of the Congress. He did not realize that the Congress movement was very brittle and its superficial unity was only on the basis of opposition to the british. As you know, after independence, congress eventually disintegrated. The hindu leaders of congress squabbled with each other to the point that an ordinary Italian woman, Sonia Gandhi, became the leader. There continues to be a leadership vaccum in Delhi. This is evident from all kinds of coalition politics in an effort to provide leadership to the country. The BJP has tried in vain to fill that vaccum using hindutva etc. However, the fact is that after Vajpayee, it will face a severe challenge to provide a leader of any stature.

The net result is that Jinnah settled for too less. The community that ruled the entire subcontinent ended up on the fringes. Most hindus found it rather odd, because they had always experienced rule by elite minorities e.g. upper caste hindus, muslims, british etc. It was like brahmins demanding a ``Brahministan`` just because they were a minority. Anyway, all this is just historical what-if analysis. Now that we have the political realities of India and Pakistan, we should find a way to have a stable, peaceful relationship.

ahmadb #: 168

``Since 1981, I have been living in a University town (30,000+ students). We get no less than 100 fresh Indian students each year. But, the Indian Muslims student virtually never come to my University. Why?``

Most of the Indian muslim students go to the Illinois universities, don’t ask me why. Education is not revered to the same extent by the Indian muslims as other communities, that is one big reason for their small numbers here. Most Indian Muslims study art’s its really popular and that explains their disproportionate representation in the Indian movie Industry, drama, journalism etc.There are fewer scholarships for arts students than science students, that’s another big reason.

Cheraym # 174

There seems to be some misguided opinion here that coming to the west and going to an engineering school is a measure of success. A lot of people are quite happy in their land of birth doing what they want. I think they are very successful.

Scout # 178

“Had it not been for Pakistan and my parents families moving West during the partition, I wouldn`t have had the same opportunities or confidence that I have now.”

Its good if it worked for you. You do understand that there are a lot of others who have a different opinion.

“In post partition Pakistan, my parents developed their identity, self esteem, and confidence, passing it on to their children. Patriotism is an elixer for success, if used correctly.”

That’s very good for you and your parents. But the rest of us had an identity, a lot of self esteem and confidence. We never felt the need to go elsewhere to get it.

“It would be an interesting study comparing the attitudes and personalities of Indian Muslims vs. Pakistani Muslims.”

I have never had any doubt we are more positive :-). A lot of us are quite happy with the social freedom we take for granted in India that would not be available to us in Pakistan.



Concerned # 184

“faruk,

[...the strata of muslim society that the author is talking about are poor, illiterate and used...]

true, but even if we consider the `poor` muslim population to reflect the overall average (30%, it may be more), it would indicate that 40 million or more muslims could fall in this category. i find that a scary number that can potentially be `used` for a `non-indian` identity. i hope my fear is exaggerated.”

Only a small fraction of that 30 or 40 million feels that way.

rsridhar # 194

Most muslim communities in India have access to state funded govt. schools and private schools. But it does not change their life, they join their parents brass, carpet or sari business. The Madarsa’s in India teach the Koran that’s it, and urdu in some south Indian cities. You can learn urdu in school in northern India and its part of the CBSE board.

There are two universities in Northern India that offer learning in Islamic Studies. Aligarh Muslim University and Jamia Millia Islamia. The Dept of Islamic Studies at Aligarh Muslim University believe that the only other istitution in the world that compares to them is the one at Cairo.

PS. The Hispanics are 12 in the US. Refer to the recent census. http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/nation/intfile3-1.txt

Jawahara # 202

I totally agree. Nice post.

I agree with Nada Siddiqui # 233. For some time I am also trying to organize PSA on our campus in North Carolina, but Pakistani students are just not enthusiastic. Besides Muslim Students Association is resisiting, they have crazy idea that in Islam there is no concept of nationalism. Indians have the advantage of large number on the campus, and they have three associations! I think they are more nationalistic on average than Pakistanis.

Re: PM

`Methinks you need to step back a little and question yer motives every so often.`

My motive was humor that time.

Re: spout

`Where do you live? I`m going to get my jamaat-e-islaami posse to come hunt you down...`

I am in Europe right now but I`ll be back in NYC soon enough. Make my day! Hamidm and I will be waiting with bottles of merlot and if anyone comes near us, we won`t hesitate to hurl some of it down their throats.

`But seriously, there are enough desi idiots in this world, do something different for a change buddy boy.`

Dude, get a sense of humor and realize that no one is going to change anything through Chowk. Use it for entertainment value to the extent possible.