The Meaning of Pakistan

Granted the intentions were quite possibly genuine and sincere, the end product turned out to be just too goody-goody; an effort to please all Muslims at best at the expense of alienating all Non Muslims at worst. Precisely the take of the Pakistani govt!

Nevertheless a good first effort. Objectivity and impartiality is something you are accountable for as a writer. Dont get carried away by the sway of your religious and jingoist sentiments, granted which the GOP tries to infuse in every single child who is fortunate enough to see the inside of a school.

One learns best from those who are fearless critics of one`s work.

Asim

Sincerely

Asim

Very interesting article by Aitzaz Ahsan. He is distinguished lawyer, ex-interior minister, and the most loyal of Benazir`s loyalists (unfortunately). He writes well, though.

``Maneesha does not know Pakistani polemics

Aitzaz Ahsan

The Pakistani does not have to be an Indian, but he has to be somebody. Who is that somebody? Again hundreds of newspaper articles every year show us groping for answers, or self-righteously providing misconceived absolutes. One set of absolutists, the Pakistani fundamentalists, would make the Indus Person an Arab. No more no less. That is the point to which genealogies are also traced. Another set of absolutists, the Indian historians, insist that he is an Indian, pure and simple. They, like Takekar, assert that his Pakistani identity is artificial and contrived. The rationalist, on the other hand, must seek his identity in his own land, the Indus region, and in his own nation, the Pakistani nation, a mix, perhaps of the Persian, Central Asian and Indian, but unique and distinct.....

I pointed out in The Indus Saga that Pakistan has always had an identity; and it has always had a soul. Its soul has often been lost to it by interpretations based on illogical myths and obscurantist double-speak. It is today battered by the intolerant and fratricidal schisms of sectarian, linguistic, and regional groups; brutalised by ostentatious consumerism and corruption; held hostage by the manifest opportunism and inconstancy of its ruling classes. Yet this soul is a colourful and vibrant fabric in which many distinct and differing threads have been interwoven and have peacefully co-existed, each adding to the strength and value of the weave.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html

Dear Aisha:

An interesting effort. I have read your article twice. Now, I am in a position to make a few comments.

You have indeed tried to come to grips with an extremely difficult topic.

Are religion (Mazhab?) and Dean (way of life) mutually exclusive categories? Please explain.

You argue that the demand for a separate homeland for the Indian Muslims was in reaction to “the clamor of growing Hindu fanaticism in politics”. What is the basis of your argument? Is this what you have learned at home, in your Pakistani school texts, or some other authentic historical sources? Please explain and, if possible, provide verifiable citations.

You write: “. . . when we begin to think of revolutionizing the culture of fundamentalism into one of democracy the unit we deal with isn’t the society but the individual”. Are you saying that we have a broad culture of fundamentalism in Pakistan which needs to be transformed into a democratic culture? How? It seems that this could be done by focusing upon Deen (Islamic way of life) but not religion (Mazhab?). Is this really your position? If so, what kind of Deen would the Pakistani non-Muslims citizens follow? But, if you are inclined toward Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan, may be this is not a real issue for you (in view of Jinnah’s secular stance). Please explain your position.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Humsab #22, ``Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc.

never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.``

Oh man, this is hilarious. Obviously you haven`t been reading what saxena says, and the hidden agenda behind sadna`s propaganda, or Jay`s frenzied cutting and pasting anti-Islamic, anti-Pakistani news articles.

Your very own Sadna`s dictionary consists of a few words like Taleban, kaafir, TNT, and other such religious bullshi.t.

And you think we`re obsessed with Islam?

Think before you make such a stupid statement again. The Indians on this board are no angels, and they get orgasmic pleasure (except for a few) out of jumping at the opportunity of criticizing Pakistanis and making a mockery of their religion.

What`s right is right, what`s fair is fair. We have our share of idiots, you have yours. But the dirt is getting tossed by both sides, not just one.

So brother, think about that with a glass of cool water :).

Humsab #22, ``A few months back, I was astonished when I came to know that a friend`s daughter (in cosmopolitan Karachi) aged 9 years go to madarassah to learn reading the Book. I was horrified that everybody goes through this process at such tender age.``

Oh, I totally relate to how you feel. Just today, I read an article in Newsday about an Indian multi-millionaire in Berkeley, California who had three pubescent sex slaves imported from a small town in India, one of them died due to carbon monoxide poisoning in his apartment building.

He said he`d been having sex with the two sisters since they were nine years old.

I was very shocked and disgusted. The guy was very well respected in the Indian community in California, and people looked up to him as an example to other Indians.

Too bad desi male bas.tards exist across the border as well.

Let`s not take anything away from Aitezaz Ahsan for his PPP links. The book came out a few years ago and in it he has presented a strong case for the `people of the Indus` having a distinct identity taking shape over a period of 5000 years.

He adequately shuts up both the Be-an-Arab and the Be-an-Indian tantrums.

Kabuliwala:

My intention was not to make Islam assimilate into the bloodstream of the non-Muslim world, or the religious minorities in Pakistan. The target of the write up was mainly the Pakistani Muslims and an attempt to change our way of understanding Islam so that we can question and criticize our freedom so it doesn’t cost those who don’t think like us. However, you rightly pointed out that attempts of this kind are Hindu strategy for ages and are threatening as they should be. I understand that you have something to point out, and thank you…but YLH has a head on his shoulders not mine.

YLH and Ras and all others

Thanks…Though its funny how even months can make one think with a mew perspective, and there are faults in this article but thanks for picking out what was good in it.

Urstruly:

I really appreciate your encouragement… nafs I guess is more consciousness than soul. Apparently its withdrawn form us during sleep so its got to be.



I like dwelling on Pakistani identity, and though it may seem like a duel to you too, between me and me, it’s basically the following,

-Judgment is a prerequisite to mastering the art of any progress, but it should have a balance between absolute right and the philosophical “nothing is really right or wrong but thinking makes it so”

-Islam offers Muslims many clear cut examples of how one can make truth triumph over untruth. And improve quality of existence.

-In all religions and beliefs or traditions there seems to be one common theme, service for others beyond and after ourselves, leads to a more fulfilling life. A collective social order more to raise standards of living than self-preservation.

-The ultimate goals of all bearable civilizations are justice and equality. I don’t think ideals can get any better. My Islam has those concepts embedded in it, but Muslims are a mirror of the opposite… Hindu influence I guess.

Now Jinnah was a proponent of justice and equality. He was when he wanted Hindu Muslim unity and he was when he made Pakistan. Drinking and eating pork are possibly “unislamic” acts but, so is making “NON_ONION_EATERS” sunnah followers, and its definitely better than having a father of a nation who was member of the London Vegetarian Association. (Jinnah vs Gandhi by Merrim Allen)

Wassalam.

Aisha Sarwari

Scout # 36

You have missed the point. I deliberately chose those names from Indian Chowksters who are either self-proclaimed bigots or have been labeled as such. What you are ignoring is that Sadna’s lectures are predominantly limited to socio, politico economic situations and threat of fundamentalism.

She has written against India’s lunatic elements also.

Saxena, I, guess is, atheist and so no chance of any religious sermons on message of Gita and Profile of Rama. Hence, always pointing out outdated notions and beliefs. His method of making his point is not something I am comfortable with. But then he has been getting as bad or rough as he gives.

McGupta has also been in the same league.

Jay of course is one who follows the message of Gita in right earnest. His responses or his messages are always written with absolute equanimity. Dukh main Sukh main Ek jaise. Even when he writes infuriating material, the tone and tenor is even which is totally devoid of ‘Jhallahat’ ( Sorry, could not find English equivalent of it). Now, this quality is certainly missing in his bete-noire. Anyhow, even he does not write on ‘Greatness of his religion’.

As for share of idiots on both sides, you are absolutely right. I don’t think even one of the aforementioned names have ever suggested that only angels walk on this side. And yes, dirt gets tossed from both sides. However, please note, I was mentioning about obsession with religion and not religion as such.

Scout # 37

How can you equate religious teaching at tender age with rape of young innocent girls? I have problems with indoctrinating young minds but not with religious learning. I feel this should be done at a time when children are old enough to sift the material to have an ethical, moral message and carry on with life without carrying this baggage wholesale.

As for the achievements of that Respected Reddy of Berkeley, California, have you found anybody admiring Reddy openly for a well-done job? (I have used word ‘openly’ because as you said and I agree men and particularly Desi men are horrible and so may relish Reddy’s exploits in private but won’t have the courage to do it in Public.) Even Reddy himself cried (must be out of shame and the fear of jail) in Court and knew he has brought shame to his family also. So, rest assured, raping young girls have no sponsors and it is not a socially acceptable norm but sending 9 years old kids to religious school is not only accepted but is encouraged you know where. I hope you understand my point as my inadequate intelligence failed me in my earlier post to which you reacted in a hurry and with ‘Jhallaahat’.

Thanks for suggesting cold-water treatment but frankly I am an extraordinary lazy person and so find it difficult to open freeze, take glass, pour water and then drink. The best for me is to cup my hand and drink water directly from tap.

Best Wishes

Yo, Aisha; here is something for you to digest, from that Pakistani site somebody quoted on this board:

-----Begin Quote------

Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom of women. While some progressive Muslim intellectuals are insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres. What are Qazi`s views on women?

A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)`s views on women are the exact views of Qazi. Equality of men and women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do and what women can do, men cannot do. Women are weak physically and mentally compared to men. For this we do not need any proof other than to just look at men and women. Men have to take care of women all the time. If some women do not have any male relatives, then they have to find a man and marry him so that he will take care of her. Women should not have life outside the family. Education can be provided to them but not to compete with men in public. Neither they can fight in war nor they can be of use in peacetime politics. Qazi had said once that JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities. Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is that it is never talked openly in the public by Jamaat. Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI did not make it a big issue since the women who currently have the voting may vote against JI in the elections if such a thing is said openly. For this I was against. in my opinion, since all the main leaders of Jamaat believes that women will not have voting rights after they come to power, they should openly say that. If you do not say now and then you remove the voting rights later when you come to power, that is going to build a resentment among the people. But Qazi was firmly of the opinion that JI should not say that now.

------End Quote------

That ought to keep you, Scout, and a few others the 13th serial wife of some Baluch camel jockey and out of these sites. (YLH, don`t get any ideas and try to become a Baluch camel jockey. You are what you are: a Rutgers - Ivy League graduate.) Keep dreaming about pork-eating being better than vegetarianism while you are barefoot, pregnant (with your 17th child), and loading & unloading camels.

-----Begin Quote -----

Q:That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?

A:Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi, the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors. JI is already equating the India with Hindus so that the Hindus of Pakistan will be forced to become Muslims. This was very successful strategy during the Babri Masjid riots. JI actively involved in destroying the Hindu temples in Punjab and Sindh. We ordered the destruction of the Hindu family property too. But our main aim was to destroy the Hindu temples. We wrote the JI pamphlets that destroying each pagan temple make a Muslim move closer to heaven of Allah. We used the Hadiths in all the pamphlets. Babar destroyed the Ram temple in Ayodhya. Because he was a true believer. The same way every Muslim should take upon himself to destroy the Hindu temples in Pakistan. Our idea was to encourage the Muslims of India also to destroy the Hindu temples in India. But this was not met with much success since the Hindu police in India started attacking the Muslims who were doing the Allah`s duty.

-----End Quote-----

What was that dream about being a secular state? Ha, ha! You brain-dead folks have no chance. Your last chance for that was to stay within India but no, you had to go and get yourself the Land of the Pure, so you can consort with Mullah Muhammad Omar & Company. Have you considered a marriage with him? Afghanistan, I hear, is an even more Islamic state than the L of the P. You should be able to discuss your brand of Islam with the learned Mullah. He will probably have you stoned to death; all the better for him as he will be able to take another wife as ordained in that book to end all books.

-----Begin Quote-----

Q: What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

A: It will be the Sharia govt. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in Madrassas will be appointed as the Judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military Generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa. We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (i.e. the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad. The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi`s vision is that Pakistan will be center of the new Islamic Empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Srilanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir-controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard.

-----End Quote-----

Guess what, I too am impressed by the Taliban`s stand on women. Going by the rantings and ravings of females on Chowk, the learned Mullah might almost be right. So, bring on the burqas and stop women`s schooling, right now! Female Muslims are good for only one thing.

Islam Zindabad!

Maulana Mullah Zindabad!

L of the P Paindabad!

Allah Hafiz!

(Hey, YLH, is that enough sloganeering in the signature line?)

Dear Aisha

I too like the other chowkwallas had to read your article at least twice to determine the gist of what it is you are trying to say. In an article that initially promised stream of consciousness, cathartic writing, the juxtaposition of analytic thought created, in my opinion some confusion.

I`m not sure I agree with you though. Wouldn`t` it be lovely if we could all agree to see the `true Islam in the perspective of Deen and not Madhab` ? Wouldn`t it be lovely if everyone agreed that `anything` could be Islamic (within reason) ? But everyone doesn`t agree and the problem could well be in the definition of `within reason`. Everyone has their own interpretation of religious teachings and when they don`t - when a collective begins to emerge amongst the various corners of thought, and the Talibans of Afghanistan or the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia come randomly to mind - violence, repression, intolerance, never seem to be too far behind.

How do you propose to walk the fine line of balancing me against you ? I think Islam is nothing if not Symbolic (I know I`m using the word in a different sense here then that intended by you) - best understood by Saints - a `haseen imtizaj` if you will of Sufism and Samaritanism where one is committed to God and the other to Man.

All of the above is open to misinterpretation - as much on your part as on mine. Pakistan was a symbol. Many things to many people. In the confusion of the past 50 odd years, that`s what`s been lost.

Cheers

-P

Ref sarwari #: 39

[My intention was not to make Islam assimilate into the bloodstream of the non-Muslim world, or the religious minorities in Pakistan. The target of the write up was mainly the Pakistani Muslims and an attempt to change our way of understanding Islam so that we can question and criticize our freedom so it doesn’t cost those who don’t think like us. However, you rightly pointed out that attempts of this kind are Hindu strategy for ages and are threatening as they should be.]

Hey Allah, purge this poor virgin`s head of all Hindu-inspired thoughts. What You have demanded is absolute submission and this misguided girl is thinking impure thoughts! May it be Your will that she marries a Mullah so that she can be correctly instructed in the Way of Islam!

[The ultimate goals of all bearable civilizations are justice and equality. I don’t think ideals can get any better. My Islam has those concepts embedded in it, but Muslims are a mirror of the opposite… Hindu influence I guess.]

You know, Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, must be a bearable civilization; nay, even a pleasant one, since no Hindus were allowed in for a long time and Saudi laws were enacted without the influence of Hindus, Christians, Jews, or any other folks.

What an utterly stupid way of blaming Hindus for everything wrong with Islam! Why don`t you check to see if Life`s Little Instruction Book (known to you Submitters as the Quran) has got any part in it for justice and equality for women, let alone minorities?

[Drinking and eating pork are possibly “unislamic” acts but, so is making “NON_ONION_EATERS” sunnah followers, and its definitely better than having a father of a nation who was member of the London Vegetarian Association. (Jinnah vs Gandhi by Merrim Allen)]

Got any more goras to quote on the superiority of pork vs vegetables, Jinnah vs Gandhi, L of the P vs Hindustan, etc.?

Ref aikrindd #: 38

[He (Aitezaz Ahsan) adequately shuts up both the Be-an-Arab and the Be-an-Indian tantrums.]

Please, remain a Pakistani. The FBI can then limit its searches for terrorists to a smaller area of the subcontinent.

Ref scout #: 37

[Just today, I read an article in Newsday about an Indian multi-millionaire in Berkeley, California who had three pubescent sex slaves imported from a small town in India]

Must have been reading The Life of Prophet Muhammed.

Ref hamidm #: 18

[but, they don`t know that a 18 year old macallan in hand is better than two ageless houris in the bush ......]

Was that the Macallan or are you genuinely this funny?

Ageless houris in the bush, indeed! That is truly inspired.

I can`t believe the Chowk staff let that through!

Still ROTFL.

ROmair,

{{The Pakistani does not have to be an Indian, but he has to be somebody. Who is that somebody?}}

That somebody is a PAKISTANI! Jeez, even after 50 yrs of independance it boggles my mind why some Pakistanis are still struggling to define their identity.

Aisha,

A great attempt to interpret the meaning of pakistanb for the US based pakistanis. For the millions in pakistan who yell, La Ilaha Illallah, pakistan ka matlab kya, the answer is clear as as the sound from AK47, they are going to the 200,000 madrassas, they know the meaning of islam and jihad and pakistan.

Then there is the other group, who go to the allegedly `secular` schools where the curriculum demands the identification of hindud by the age of ten, where k for kafir is the first letter of the alphabet, they go on to become soldiers along with the madrassa products and at heights of kargill, the meaning of pakistan becomes clear tpo them.

There is the other group like you based in the `democratic` countries, whre the death in kashmir you read in the front pages, the work of the patriotic jihadists, and the meaning of pakistan becomes clearer by the day.

Then of course tyhere is the last group, the accidental theorists. For these few, Jinnah never wanted pakistan, he was either tricked by the dirty crafty hindoos, or like a burst condom event pakistan came into being.

Ofcourse, you appear to be in the YLH mullah school, sitting in the US, studying some skill based subjects like IT, and uses the spare time to in intelectual persuites, since that is not required for the subject you are stdying to arrive at some crappy, wishful thinking modernised interpretations of book. You should realise that no, no mullah supports your view, and your crdibility is no more than a mullah teaching you the patent laws on softwares.

You are like YLH, a strw figure for the indians to shoot, and wish you a happy life at that.

regards

jay

Re: spout

I know you said your vision isn`t too great and you wear soda-bottle glasses, but I don`t think that gives you a right to be delusional. I have NEVER talked about ``my`` holy book being better than another. I don`t even have a holy book to defend as I am almost an atheist! What I have done is pointed out some choice quotes from the Kooran to expose negative aspects of Islam.

It`s amazing to observe young Pakistanis in action. They praise this Sarwari character as if she were a genius of some sort...she can`t even put together a coherent paragraph without abhorrent grammar and has nothing insightful to say. All she has done here is wax on about Islam and Pakistan in a childish, romantic way.

When a true genius like hamidm comes along, they chastise him. Throw him over the border if you don`t want him.