The Meaning of Pakistan

re: anybody

From my very limited knowledge of poetry I always thought it was `har TADBEER sey pehley. Is it really TAQDEER or is it a typo?

Terrific audio interview with Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir, and former head of the Pakistan Human Rights Commission. She’s been at the forefront of the movements for women’s rights, human rights and peace in Pakistan for twenty years. She is one of the six recipients of the new Millennium peace Prize for Women, which is cosponorsed by the UN Development Fund for Women.

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/fa/20010312.fa.ram

In her interview, Ms. Jehangir indicates that she wants to take the prize to Delhi and Dhaka and celebrate it with the women of India and Bangladesh, since the problems she fights against in Pakistan are all too common both in India and in Bangladesh. Truly a tenacious, gritty lady, and a citizen of the whole world. Ms. Jehangir, we are proud of you and salute you!

True to form, everything goes down the naallah in Hindu-Muslim India-Pakistan flames. To be fair, there wasn`t much in the article except good intentions to begin with.

I hope someone more capable will take up those good intentions and deal rationally with what ahmedb called a very complex subject.

The only saving grace is that two undoubtedly capable people scout and RSaxena seem to have called off their truce. For a brief day to two, the place had gotten terribly boring :) :)

Jagdeep:

Ayesha is correct! It is `Taqdeer` than `Tadbeer.`
Think about the meaning. It`s saying:

scout #36
Whats all this? Heeeheeehaaahaaahaaaa (diabolical laugh). The way to identify people with a hidden agenda is by their diabolical laugh, disheveled hangers-on named Raabert and a snooty cat.. Mona is interviewing for Mogambo so I`m having to type this in myself..

But seriously, those women and men who want to make the transition from the drawing-room league(where ones efforts are always appreciated and the right putdown makes the problems and uncomfortable people go away) to the league of responsible adults, if only by keeping themselves informed, I would recommend hearing Asma Jahangir in her own words.

shammi has posted it #50

She is a woman I REALLY REALLY admire. Her fearlessness and lack of ambiguity in taking up life-threatening challenges headon to do what she believes is right is truly inspiring(nazar na lagey). When she need not be facing the heat when there are so many safe and easy rationalizations around...what can I say, I am speechless with admiration..

Sadhana

ahmadb #35:

Maulana Bilal:

Yaar such bataiN?

--kabhi kabhi, aap ki patience aur tolerance say uljhan si honay lagti hay.
--kabhi kabhi, reading between your lines, ooktahat honay lagti hay humaiN.
--kabhi kabhi, ji chahta hay kay b’bang-e-deh’l aap saaf saaf baat likhaiN.
--kabhi kabhi, kabhi kabhi ... aur bhee khayal aatay haiN zeh’n main.

ijazat,

dua’go,

t

PS: And I know for a fact you have a sense of humour:)

PPS: Jaisa kay Kitab maiN dar’j hay, Islam is ‘ad-deen-ul-yas’r’ --- you enquired, [...Are religion (Mazhab?) and Dean (way of life) mutually exclusive categories?..] ---Islam is the ‘din’ --- and its interpretation leading to practice is called ‘madhab’ or mazhab --- hence asif, adnan, ali, farangi, sac, fuzair are all followers of the same din but ostensibly different ‘mazabs’.

It is the intractability, rigidness, inflexibility and intolerance of the present leadership of these mazhabs that fosters a fascistic narrow image of this great religion.

It results in what happened last night in Lahore --- three men on motorcycle sprayed bullets into those gathered for isha prayers.

It is often the collusion between these ‘pseudo’ maulanas and the aspiring leadership of the ‘vested’ interest ---at various times shifting in proportion between the Army (and that includes Air Farce and Navel - just for you the artist formerly known as Umairr:) ) feudals, beaurecrats that robs the ordinary Muslim of decency and any fair chance he may have had in this world.

This is true of Pakistan and if you change the players in the parenthesis, it is true of any Muslim majority country.

(Apologies for my indulgence here. You know very well as a norm I avoid these parochial tunnel visioned matches.)

{I guess I am onto something important here....hey hamidm ... will you please show up and complete my thoughts.....someone is beaming me elsewhere...:)}

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CC14Df01.html

Is Pakistan closer to Arab world or India?

Paying tribute to ``Hindu`` basant is a risky business. One has to appease or stand up against not only Islamists and Two-Nation Theorists, but also those who are bent upon changing Pakistan`s geography and want to shift it from South Asia to the Middle East.

Asks Rahman, ``Whether the rightists like it or not, it is a fact that we have more cultural similarities with India than with our Muslim brethren in Iran or Afghanistan. Who in Afghanistan or Iran chews pan? Where else but on the subcontinent are red chilies an essential ingredient of our food. Do Arabs wear dhoti, shalwar or sherwani? Our marriage customs and the rituals we follow after a person`s death are common with India, except for the religious parts. We watch Indian movies and TV because they produce entertaining and glamorous programs. We understand the language and the family problems they present are similar to ours. In which other country is the saas-bahu (mother-in-law versus daughter-in-law) relationship the subject of so many plays and movies?`` But he still feels the need to insist, ``In spite of all these cultural similarities with India, we are and will remain a separate nation``.

It is tempting to deride Pakistani intellectuals. But with 15,000 madrasas (seminaries) producing on an average 500,000 graduates believing in Talibanism or jihadism and about 50,000 jihadi graduates from armed training schools being produced every year, adding to the list of 1.7 million trained jihadis already in the country, it cannot be much fun for the liberal intellectual to live and stand up to the jihadi mentality. If they are still clinging to sub-continental traditions such as basant, and defending it publicly, one can only applaud them for their courage

Jay,

And you are nothing but a Bal Thackerey ... a fool who wont amount to much. One who is too scared to see the truth for yourself.

Sincerely

YLH

The intolerance shown by Indians on this thread is a clear indication of who wants peace and who wants confrontation.

That tormented soul Nixon, abused as he is, was right when in his assessment of India and Indian People.

Jay and other Indians,

Thanks for opening my eyes once again, I was almost beginning to think of Indians as human beings.

YLH

In response to temporal (Reply # 54)
Dear temporal:

Your statement: ``. . . kabhi kabhi, aap ki patience aur tolerance say uljhan si honay lagti hay.``

My reply: Main bhi insaan hoon. Uljhan mujhay bhi hoti hay, magar ka karoon. Apni aadat aur aqal say majboor hoon. More later.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

As I sat to read, ``The Meaning of Pakistan,`` I ran into a a very sad as well as strange news. A must read for Pakistanis!

With the utmost dismay and grief I forward the news of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan`s removal. It feels as if our integrity, honor, pride, and dignity
yet again was sold off for pennies - Imagine asking an individual of a caliber of Dr. AQK - the man who has single handedly made Pakistan the
Big Brother of all Muslims countries, Got us the membership in the elite N-5 club, and has provided the opportunity to have the biggest gun -was asked to become a minister - sorry an ``advisor with the status of minister``.

I am sure any professional, whether in Pakistan or else where will know that the most filthy thing an Inventor, a Pioneer, a Visionary can be
called is a Minister or a Politician. Having the privilege to see Dr. AQK speak in the late 80s - I have yet to see a Pakistani of his
intellectual caliber - so humbly and gracefully be deeply in love with Pakistan.

Dr. AQK the government of Pakistan may have betrayed you, Pakistan Military may have betrayed you, Pakistani rulers may have betrayed you -
But the people of Pakistan have not. The Pakistani Nation and the Muslim ummah at large are indebted by your service. History of Pakistan and our coming generation will remember you as the Golden Child of Pakistan - who served his Motherland with dignity, honor, and pride.

Unfortunately, much could not be said for our rulers, politicians,ministers and their advisors. Past, Present and Future - Governments of
Pakistan, Rulers of Pakistan, and the So called guardians of Pakistan should always remember there is yet to come a leader of Pakistan after
Mohammed Ali Jinnah - who this nation granted death in peace and civility. This cruel reality is the constant reminder that the struggle
that was started by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, the passion that was fueled by Alma Mohammed Iqbal, and the war led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah has not yet
reached its conclusion.

The logical explanation of the chain of events from the ``key`` U.S. bipartisan congressional members` visit to Pakistan, CE`s meeting with
``key`` US officials, Kofi Anan`s visit to Pakistan, India`s willingness to talk, and Dr. AQK`s removal could be that our beloved leader has made a compromise to roll back - Pakistan`s Nuclear and Strategic defense infrastructure - if this speculation is true than the so called heroes
would have single handedly committed the worst act of treason in the history of Pakistan.

Had this been an Normal Government, a true Islamic Nation, a Free Nation - the leaders would have taken the Nation and Dr. AQK into confidence - or at least should have had the courage to offer an explanation. Will they?

Please write to our easily pressurized, threatened, and scared government to void making this mistake as this will single handedly
drive the last nail in our coffins.

Musharaf: CE@pak.gov.pk
Dawn: editor@dawn.com
The News: editor@jang.com.pk

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re: #60

the jang report yesterday had some lines to the effect that dr khan was accused(?) by a court in holland for theft of some kind many years ago.

the ce`s statement that there are hundreds of equally good scientists in pakistan should be of some comfort to the disappointed people.

From The Nation (Lahore) today:

Jehad against intolerant jehadis

By Wajid Shamsul Hasan

Pakistan has had enough of it at the hands of the extremist elements out there to destroy the country in the name of religion. It is no doubt late but never too late. If Musharraf regime gets down seriously to taking the sectarian bull by the horn as per its recent promises, it would be too good to be true. The jehadi elements that are threatening to take over by dint of their muscle power could only meet their nemesis at the hands of their creators.
The sectarian problem and the evil presence of the extremists have been the cause of sleepless nights for those who could read the writing on the wall. Life in Pakistan`s largest province Punjab and Karachi has been rendered short, brutish and nasty by the extremists who settle their scores with each other with impunity.
Quaid-i-Azam was fully aware of the fragmentary role of the 72 sects that had marred Islam`s pristine glory. In order to save Pakistan from falling into the quagmire of sectarian politics as is being witnessed now, he minced no words in declaring that in Pakistan religion would have nothing to do with the business of the state and that its citizens would cease to be Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc., in the political sense.
Like great Muslim reformer Syed Ahmad Khan and his own contemporary Allama Iqbal, the Quaid too was condemned a heretic by the mullas. However, the Muslims did not listen to religions giants like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi and voted for a clean shaved, much westernised Jinnah, and despite their tooth and nail opposition, Pakistan became a reality. In the post-partition Pakistan, the religious extremists found a common cause in their tenacious effort to seize victory out of the jaws of defeat, and now want to destroy its civil society in the name of Islam.
The mullas got the greatest opportunity when the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan. General Ziaul Haq also employed them to counter democratic forces such as the Movement for the Restoration of Democracy (1981-1988). Besides their supportive role for the Taliban and jehad in Kashmir, the part played by them as saboteurs to the cause of democracy has remained constant. Pakistan has also become a battleground for a proxy war between Shias and Sunnis.
Successive governments have become increasingly prone to blackmail by the religious elements. The patronage extended to them by the intelligence apparatuses for employing their services has helped them become strong enough to boast of having larger quantity and better quality of guns than possessed by the law-enforcers.
General Musharraf`s initial secular posture had ignited a hope that he would fix the extremists who were hell-bent on hijacking Quaid`s Pakistan. His commitment to restore democracy in place of `sham democracy` and reintroduce joint electorate to translate Mr Jinnah`s dream of religious-less politics were music to the ears that had got fed up from hearing venomous sermons from the pulpit. Musharraf assured that the Blasphemy Law would be amended to save the minorities from its abuse. He had to beat a hasty retreat just at the first sign of their street power. His Interior Minister too could not keep his commitment about deweaponisation.
Pakistan has been under enormous pressure from within and outside to act against the jehadis before it got too late. Country`s silent majority has become more vocal over the growing fear of Talibanisation. The growing terrorism has made it clear that the country is threatened with an implosion. As a consequence, there has been a build up of unanimous opinion that the drift needs to be halted with an iron hand. Experts have advised the government to give up its reactive approach. The Americans too have warned Islamabad to wake up and stop flirting with the fundamentalists. Since Pakistan`s bankrupt economy is totally dependent for survival upon life support from the World Bank and IMF, it hardly has an option but to pay some heed to the American word of caution.
Therefore, it seems that the government has finally decided to act. The Interior Minister has taken certain major initiatives to clip the jehadi wings. Notwithstanding the advice of pro-jehadi elements that the government should not open `too many fronts`, it appears to have decided to eradicate the impression that it has no teeth to bite. The Minister`s recent utterances have been very harsh against the jehadi organisations. He seems to be reasserting that the junta has overcome the `divided opinion` within its ranks and is no more willing to be blackmailed by them. It also carries the message home that the policy of appeasement has come to an end.
There are no two views that dealing with sectarian terrorism requires something more than administrative and law and order measures. Terrorists have closed mindsets. The government has to treat the disease rather than kill the patient.
There are so many sects in Islam. The state cannot tell followers of these sects to conform to one or another belief. It could create the right environment for a peaceful and tolerant co-existence by taking effective measures to ensure that religion has nothing to do with the business of the state and, in its eyes, all citizens are equal. There is a need to eliminate the foreign hand that feeds terrorism for its own ends.
The Ministry of Interior has authorised its Crimes Management Cell to register all the sectarian, jehadi organisations and madrasahs and find out the sources of their funding. These organisations have also been warned not to collect donations anywhere. They have been banned from putting up donation collection boxes in the mosques, madrasahs or imambaras. In response, the jehadis have threatened open defiance and warned the administration that they would not take it lying down.
Since the problem is enormous, its various facets need to be investigated. The government should differentiate between good and bad organisations and the madrasahs run by them, and treat them on merit irrespective of the fact that there is a general perception that madrasahs have been serving as cradles for sectarian violence. Moinuddin Haider has come on record that the brands of Islam madrasahs preach were divisive and harmful to Pakistan`s interest.
According to a published report, there were in 1998 at least, 751 schools in Punjab engaged in sectarian training, and 810 graduates of these schools were wanted by the police on charges of violent crimes but were absconding. These are believed to have increased manifold since. The Minister would have to investigate the incidence of violence by the madrasah students.
It has been recognised that the madrasahs have been serving as a parallel system of education for the have-nots. Haider will have to introduce measures to reform them to convert them into real institutions of learning for the deprived communities and would no more allow them to be abused by the jehadis for recruitment as fodder for their guns and bigoted objectives. The Ministry of Interior, in collaboration with the Ministry of Religious Affairs, should also take long-term measures to forge unity in thinking and approach between religious teaching and modern education.
Investigators need to be assigned to find out the links and the extent of collaboration between the jehadi groups, drug mafia and the underworld.
The decision to ban the public display of arms, deweaponisation and an all-out war against jehadi organisations is definitely the need of the hour. Appropriate insturctions have been issued instructions to the provincial governments to enforce these measures with an iron hand. The government must know that in order to establish equilibrium in Pakistani society it must defang various groups. It must also eradicate terrorist strongholds, their hideouts, their arsenals and source of arms supplies.
The Musharraf junta needs to realise that the fear of jehadi takeover has grown larger than life. Some of the pro-jehadi elements in the regime are believed to have warned Musharraf of a backlash. The jehadi organisations, too, have given the government an ultimatum that they will neither have themselves registered nor submit their accounts for scrutiny. London`s Weekly Nation has even expressed its apprehension that the jehadis could resort to assassination to eliminate the man who poses a serious threat to them.
However, the junta must lend its ears to the predominant view that most of the `fundo` setups have been creation of its agencies and their leaders are perhaps still in their pay. As such the fears of a backlash are more quixotic than real. According to liberal elements, the government must strike now to nip the menace in the bud before it spreads its tentacles wide in the society. Successive governments in the past have been appeasing the extremist elements. Instead of firmly dealing with them whenever they resorted to destroying TV cable networks, disrupt musical programmes, or attempted to introduce their brand of Shariah over the writ of the state, the governments chose to buckle under. By now, they have acquired a veto power in the name of Islam on issues such as Afghanistan, Kashmir, joint electorate, Blasphemy Law and even the nature of domestic politics.
Last but not the least, in the new emerging scenario Pakistan is required to adjust and adopt a new policy over Afghanistan and Kashmir. It has to distance itself from the Taliban government to show compliance with the UN sanctions. For lending its support to a wider international effort for the settlement of Kashmir, it has to rein in the jehadi forces that seem to be getting out of control when the West is putting pressure on India to resolve the issue. It seems that Islamabad has already cast the die. It has closed down four offices of militant jehadi groups in Muzzafarabad. The Interior Ministry has also vowed to make militant groups account for huge amounts of public donations collected in the name of Kashmiri refugees. It wants them to first register themselves, subject their donations to official scrutiny and then apply for permission to raise donations by putting up donation boxes in public places.

Dear Aisha:

Welcome back to sunny California. I have a few questions you.

a. Why highly intellectual and high energy people like yourselves are still searching for a meaning of Pakistan? It will evolve like every thing just give its democratic institutions (however corrupt) back. In this context, how would you explain the U.S. constitution / bill of rights and the U.S. Supreme Court at one time upheld slavery, and the same constitution and bill rights outlawed it too. These contradictions can only be explained if you accept evolutionary nature of human societies requires evolutionary changes in interpretations and institutions. Develop these institutions, begin with girls and empower women, you will see changes coming in two generations, your grand children will feel these changes. It is a slow process, Musharraff is misleading the people just as much as people blame Nawaz Shariff

b. Why can Pakistan be accepted as a ground reality and let your / YLH generation make it a better (in evolutionary) way? Would you compare your baby with your neighbor`s and fight for its acceptance or just accept it and don`t care for those neighbors who would not accept your baby. Your baby v Neighbor`s baby is not a zero-sum game. Your love is the differentiator which the neighbor`s baby does not have.

c. Would it not be better for people like yourselves and YLH to eliminate zero-game tendencies from your thinking process, and instead evolve some of your social thoughts into synthesis of political and religious models that Pakistan needs for more important economic development. You and YLH would have atleast one avid reader in me, to read you and YLH on such interesting subject. I promise both of you would be able to develop your thoughts without zero-sum game.

c. Why do you let yourself be dragged into zero-sum game Hindu-Muslim and India-Pakistan?

d. Why do you let yourself indulge into Jinnah-Gandhi zero-sum game? Jinnah would rightly stand on his on feet whether Pakistan and more importantly South Asia timely rediscovers him. He will be rediscovered for the liberal democrat and a genuine leader that he was, and less for his Hindu-Muslim unity. No unity is imposed, its need is felt and only then the unity happens. South Asia will benefit if it can go through Western Europe like process to feeling the need for unity, and needing it too.

Likewise, NON_ONION eating Gandhi, whether you like it or not has stood on his own feet and will continue to stand on his feet. Even BJP leaders who after gaining the power realized on their trip to the western capital how important and relevant Gandhi is, they quitely distanced themselves from the killers of Gandhi in their own party and embraced Gandhi at least while in the West. Like it or not Gandhi did become acknowledged inspiration for people like Martin Luther King etc. It is unfortunate that Jinnah had been buried in this zero-sum game nonsense. You know what the video rental place near my home in Saratoga, CA is run by a very nice Pakistani family, I several times over the last one year, went there to rent Jinnah movie, each time I have been told that there is no video yet. It is also unfortunate that Musharraff fires from the ambassodorship to the U.K., the person who made it a personal mission to deliver Jinnah message. Non of this has anything to with India-Pakistan, Hindu-Muslim and Gandhi-Jinnah zero sum game.

e. Don`t you think the loosers in Pakistani leadership go for Jinnah-Gandhi zero sum game to justify their parasitic existance?

There are far too many important qualities that both had than to wastefully compare Jinnah`s leadership and his liberal democratic value system with Gandhi`s NON_ONION eating habit; or for that matter Jinnah`s alchol consumption and pork eating with Gandhi`s virtuous use of non-violence as a weapon. It is foolish, it childish and completely misses the mark.

f. Why cannot we just accept that they both played their parts extremely well given the hands they were dealt with and the life and time they lived?

Let us not measure them with the present generation`s yardstick. It is my humble opinion that if they were given the freer hands and could have exercised greater control, the South Asia would have been far better off, today. And like it or not TNT would never have happened, by this I NEVER imply that Muslims would have lost power, it is a subject in itself.

TNT was a master counter move by Jinnah. Unfortunately, he did not realize that another liberal democrat, Nehru would force the move to Nehru`s advanatge. Sometimes, I wonder if Nehru did not have the ambition to be the Prime Minister what would have happened to TNT, and if he had given Gandhi a free hand to offer in all sincerity to Jinnah, then what would have happened to South Asia.

ANIL KAPURIA

harimau #43, ``Must have been reading The Life of Prophet Muhammed.``

Oh wow, you Indians are a tolerant lot aren`t you?

I tell you about a perverted Indian in California, and you go on to blast my religion.

Very impressive, keep it up. I hope Humsab read your post.

Rsuxena #47,

Please get your hands out of your pants, and read carefully:

an excerpt from Humsab`s post:

``(Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc.

never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)

My post was about his assertion that you guys (you especially) ``never get on the high horse and think others are dirt.``

I didn`t mention holy books in my post, did I? I think you were imagining it, so obsessed you are with religion.