The Meaning of Pakistan

Every man for himself and yet all of them working for the same end. Sounds good, realizable or not I would not know. It requires a bit awareness I would think which I see missing in this unique set of people. Maybe if we instill this awareness in some way then your idea of these new revolutionaries attaining the end might see the light of day. I only hope it does.

A well written article... I had the opportunity of publishing it before chowk in my Siqafat newsletter during my tenure as the Editor in Chief there ... ofcourse in November

http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/%7Efaran/dare.htm

http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/

Dear Aisha!

What took you so long. I have been anxiously waiting for another piece of writing from you since the last artcle of yours. You are gifted with good writing and analystical skills. Whenever I see young, proud, and pragmatic Pakistanis like yourself it strengthens my beleif in a progressive, well-educated, and strong Pakistan. Please write more often on Chowk.

The following paragraph that you wrote is the manifest of the new Pakistan and the Ummah. Thanks for putting it so eloquently and logically.

``Truth and its various components like knowledge and expertise should be acknowledged and appreciated regardless of the source. That in my opinion is being a true Muslim. Any good book is Islamic, any activity enhancing a person’s nafs (soul) is Islamic, any language you learn that helps you communicate your purpose of life which is unique and positive (even if it isn’t
Arabic) is Islamic, any expression you choose to convey the message which is a means to an end (as long as innocent lives aren’t at stake) is Islamic, Any marketing for a cause that is modern outward looking and gives human beings a greater economic standing so they are in a position to think about their higher selves (within the constraints of morality), is Islamic.``

I may be wrong but I think the word `nafs` is not equivalent to word `soul`. I think it is only a part of soul (Rooh)that has temporal desires therefore, it is a necessary but a mediocre part of ourselves. The concept of `Khuddi`` however guides us how to raise ourselves above our `nafs` part.

It is just a matter of correct translation but I know what you you are trying to convey, and I agree.

Aishaji :

You have said something I believe in, too :

``We realize that there isn’t no one coming, and that we got to do it ourselves``.

Wish you the best,

-Arun Gupta

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Should one be honest when commenting on a sophomoric article filled with good intentions and a lot of lightweight hot air?

So who are those new reolutaries now.

May be I am away for too long from Pakistan.

Your thesis of presenting Jinnah as true Muslim makes me laugh.

You think that this is not sloganization. Which true Muslim drink and eat pork. Even a half Muslim Ghalib did not eat pork.

The mission of Jinnah is being applied in East Pakistan now Bangladesh, where they not only have an independent country for Muslims, but have equal rights for all citizens.

You are talking about the same Pakistan which was there in 1993 or some drastic change has happened. Did the army stopped ruling Pakistan. Are the people choosing their own leaders. Did the people start getting education.Is there water even for crops or drinking. Is there no load shedding. Did the police stopped taking Bhatta. Did the Govt. functionaries stopped taking bribes. Did the Govt. stopped doing selective ``Ehtesab``.

As far as newspaper reading is concerned, I see gloom all over.

Or may be if Jinnah can be a true Muslim than you might be getting some ``Ilham`` which is not yet in newspaper.

krashid #7,

What you say is true, but give this girl a break.

At least she`s bringing positivity into Pakistani thought.

Gloom doesn`t get you anywhere. You know better than that.

temporal

.... where are you ? this is one that really deserves the full fury of your wrath and anger ....

........ thank god i am not a critic - i wouldn`t know where to start .....

Every once in a while (actually, rarely) do I come across an article by a Pakistani on CHOWK that makes me proud. This is one of them.
Thanks for writing this Aisha Sarwari. We need
more people like you (especially women)to motivate others to awaken our community from its slumber.

Ras

Thoughts are OK, but the English... Pathetic.

---SN

Aisha writes:

``...Any good book is Islamic, any activity enhancing a person’s nafs (soul) is Islamic, any language you learn that helps you communicate your purpose of life which is unique and positive (even if it isn’t Arabic) is Islamic, any expression you choose to convey the message which is a means to an end (as long as innocent lives aren’t at stake) is Islamic...``

I must point out that this is a very creative and private definition of ``Islamic.`` Throughout Islam`s bloody history people professing the Islamic faith have found it necessary to do exactly the opposite: destroy those whose beliefs run counter to their own, notwithstanding the sanitized versions of `history` taught in Pakistan and other Islamic countries. Consider one example of current relevance: there are many among the devout Hindus who worship idols and derive great sustenance from that activity. They consider it ennobling and soul-enchancing. By Aisha`s yardstick this should count as ``Islamic.`` Yet no devout Muslim would consider it to be so. Indeed, the devout Muslim has nothing but contempt for the idol-worship activity. Aisha`s sentiments are noble. However, they cannot be part of Muslimiyat (is that a legit Urdu word?) unless there is a new, revised edition of the Qu`ran in press.

tantralogician

SAMEER JB

Where are you? We miss your sensible posts. Hope your mom is OK.

Regards.

Aishaji :

Since #7 krashid raised the issue, I need not keep silent. I felt that you were headed down a slippery slope when you used the term ``true Muslim``. The concentrated brainpower of mankind through the ages would be hard-pressed to answer that riddle. ``Allah knows best !`` it is said, but Muslims know better !

-Arun the Infidelator

(And something totally not relevant here but has to be mentioned on Chowk I am asked. With full consent of the other founding member of IBR, you have been mailed a formal invitation.Khoosh?)


hamidm #9

botherm:

...not today...it`s one of those mornings when I don`t find a target in focus... and am miffed at whoever drifts into my line of firing...I am miffed at you...how can a confessed merlot lover (as Jawahara is a witness - what is the plural of johar anyone? or is she named after that Lady`s lover....what`s his name?... Pinky`s Dad`s mentor?)...merlot?.. yeah....how could you switch to cheapies from Scotland...damn what happened to the believer’s pride...breaker of idols and ideals... not to mention taste and aroma....pittance sake...you insult Carlin...whatever happened to fine single malts?...are you broke or saving up for the trosseau....worry not they will look after themselves...and thank you too...your fine daughters... it is that woman I am worried about...

[Begun hamid:

Maaf kijiyae brehum hamid, sorry Begum Hamid:

Baad khairiyat kay ittelah hay kay...nahiN yaar itni gaRRhi Urdu itni sub`h sub`h nahiN boli ja sakhti hay....

...haaN tou hum souch rahay thay kay hum ko aap say kabhi kabhi (zoare kabhi kabhi per hay) buhat humdardi hoti hay...kyuN bhala? Hum aur aap , Allah ko beech maiN laaye baghair, kabhi milay nahiN, kahiN door ki bhee shinasaaee nahiN (zoare bhee per hay)...

..yaar yeh baat kahaN say shru ki thee? Aur kis nay? Aur kyuN?

...haaN yaad aagayaa...bhayee humara khayal hay kay aap buhat achchi MaaN aur Biwi haiN (two out of three ain’t bad hamidm ... you know that definition of a perfect woman that if given here would hurl fatwas from that cute asif’s brigade)...aray kahaN hay woh Shankar ka bachcha ... bolta kyuN nahin hay? Jawab bhee ghayab... khair dafa karo oos ko...tou bibi kya hi achcha hota kay aap achcha khana bhee banana seekh laiN?

Daikhiyay, yeh humari zehni leap hay...agar hum oochcal kar ghalti say talaab oo’boor karnay ki baja’aye beech keecheRR main gir ga’aye tou maaf kardiji’aye .... hum pehlay hee ailaan kar chukay haiN itni sub’h sub’h hum raat jaga kay baad hee souch sakhtay hain aur raat ko kya h’ua yeh batataty huaye thoRRi si shram si aati hay.. Khair woh alug qissa hay....

Tou naik bibi achcha khana banana seekh ja’aye.

Hum logouN per ihsaan hoga. Buhat ihsaan hoga.

Aap ko koi ilm nahin aapka na’kaarah aur naa’laiq shohar bhook aur kharab pakwaan ki boo ko zeh’n main sajaaye yahan jub aata hay tou baghair kisi tafreek-o-imtiaz kay apni resham maiN laptee jhaRRoo say her kus-o- na kus ko aisi maarta hay aur aisis sunata hay kay samajhnay walay tou samajhnay wala hum jaisay na-samajh bhee mehzooz huaye baghair nahin reh sakhtay.

Kabhi kabhi tou (zoare pehli kabhi per hay) humain bilkul aisa lagta hay kay jaisay din insaan kay liyay aaya hay na kay oss kay bur ak’s isi tarah humari is Chowk ki duniya kay ehmaq srif is liyay banay gaaye haiN kay hamid ki reshsmi chapat seh sakhaiN. Maantay haiN yeh andaaz-e-fikr zara kamzore sa hay .... warna humaiN yeh souchnay say koi kyuN roke sakhta tha kay astaghfirullah Woh humaray liyay banaya gaya hay hum Ooskay liyay nahin ....yaa aap hamid kay liyay aur hamid humaray liyay... Chaliyay is sanjeeda mas’alay ko hum kashmir kay baad hul karlain gay.....is may khassi paycheedigiyaaN haiN...laikin andaisha hay... yeh baad wali baat tou kisi na kisi tarah hum hull kar hee laiNgay .. laikin woh pehli wali baat ik ghambir mas’ala hay... jo shayad humaiN bhas’m na karday ik din...


Ummeed hay bacchay khairyat say hongay. (This despite or in spite of Hamid — check with Carlin and let me know – am not sure of the usage this early..)

Thank you for kindly listening to me. I am sure there was a purpose in all this. If I find it by the evening I will call you.

Yours (heck can’t say truly: how about well wisher.. NO, that would cause friction between the two of them... how about that standard GOP deal clincher...your most obedient servant...nah too archaic .. besides...faithfully... NO... if I use that I would hear not only from her but HER as well and her too...nah too messy....how about simply yours...nahin yaar ...banda appears liberal ... oh sorry urs ... pseudo-liberal.....but he may mind....so how about the neutral raaqim-ul-huroof... But you are keying in ....can you create keying-ul-huroof... perhaps....is there a grand baba of Urdu here...till then how about simply sincerely...but others brag you are insincere....aren’t you.... no those are unsubstantiated rumours by disgruntled friends...phir kya...just say ijazat and sign away...hmmmm....yeh theek hay.

ijazat,


temporal bin temporal bin temporal

(There was a paucity of first names in our village just like former Sec Gen’s Boutros Boutros Boutros’....)

___________________________________________________


Why did I bring on the wrath of the Sweet One still under the lihaaf, ignore the Sunday NYT, let the tea cool, and write this... there is a purpose to this .. there has to be...


[... where are you ? this is one that really deserves the full fury of your wrath and anger ....]

—I don’t know. Oh I am here in T.O. But the overwhelming significance and sincerity leads me to other furtive, fragile, and figurative questions. Who am I? Where am I? How many billion years old is Life? And why are we so unduly obsessed with 53/54 years or 1500 years?
We have our assigned three score and ten and then we are dust or Arthur ... I mean ash. And look at our temporal arrogance! In order to please notions handed down we forget to be insaans. Fate!

Now what was it you really wanted me to turn my attention to?

regards,

t


PS: Sameer, best wishes and prayers for you in these times.

Aisha in your article you went in to a lot of intricate definations. But I wouldnt go as far as saying that a fundametalist is something else and Muslim(all others) are something else. We shouldnt claim sovereignty over religion and cast out who ever we dont see fitting our model of believes. This is exactly the kind of behaviour that has gotten the so called fundamentalist in so much trouble. If we are to build a society with tolerance for every one as you suggested in your article then we shouldnt antagonize the fundamentalist as they have an equal right for the very reason that they exist in our society.

Every passing day we are forgetting that Pakistan is ethnically and religiuosly a diverse country. I see that this problem is more common in India. The pseudo liberals there are promoting the slogan that ``there is no Hindu there is no Muslim there is no Gujurati and there is no Sikh ever one is INDIAN``. What I would like to see in Pakistan is Acceptance for every one, ``YES there is Sindhi, YES there is Punajbi and so there are Sunnis and Shia`s, they all maybe or may not be DIFFERENT yet they have one Goal to make a better PAKISTAN``. I am glad that you touched on this theme in your article but also I will say this again we need to be tolerant of fundamentalist as well.

temporal #15

....... i wish i could write in urdu as well as you do ... the language seems to be made for my dotted style of dragging simple parables into convoluted circular arguments with dots running into jumpy sentences which run into more dots and then into endless paragraphs which somewhere in the middle loose meaning and context and you find yourself lost looking for that elusive end to a big ball of string which somehow seems to be important but which could be kaka for all you know .......there ! go punctuate that .........

.... and, allah ki kasam, i never said my wife was a bad cook... but then again maybe i did .... as the irascible duo, ylh and scout, have suggested, i have probably killed half my brain cells in hedonistic pursuits ..... but, they don`t know that a 18 year old macallan in hand is better than two ageless houris in the bush ......

Tantralogician #12

Youroutlook is according to your thinking.

The basis of Islam or the pillar of Islam is Tawheed or believe in One God which includes no partner to God.

Idol worship means that in some form you are putting humans or any other creation of God as partners of God.

So by accepting the idol worship as right Muslims negate Islam.

Scout #8

A positive approach is very much appreciated.

But this is a negative approach.

Providing the umbrella of Islam to perpetuate the rape of Pakistanis by our ruling elite.

The news of today says that there is a plan again to distribute land of Sind to Army.

May be new generation of Momin will be bitten by a hole which we already know too well.

But I doubt it. Below the calm is a great flood waiting as far as I can see.

Aisha,

The spirit of your article was good. But I think you are being romantic when you say that any thing worthwhile/ intellectual thing that exists in world is Islamic and that Quran is a book of science. We need difference of opinion and have the courage to acknowledge that there can be sources of enlightenment that are non Islamic. May be what you are driving at is ijtihad, this is certainly desperately needed in Muslim countries.

We must also acknowledge Quran is meant to be a book of guidance and not a book of science and technology. The common response to any new discovery or invention by the Western countries by our moulvis is that either it is anti islamic and worth of out right rejection, or, we already knew it 1400 years ago. These both responses make our people complacent in areas of science and research. Even Ibn e Rushd was for separtaion of science and religion in his `doctrine of double truth`. We really need rational, logical people in Pakistan who make decisions in their life on reasoning and not on old customs and superstitions.

You are true when you point out the evil of increasing gap between rich and poor in Pakistan, there is a need for a big political/ economic reform in Pakistan. Our only hope is young optimistic people. The kind of brain drain taking place from Pakistan is indeed unfortunate. And our bright people provide their sweat and blood for the progress of Western countries, who in the first place exploit countries like Pakistan. So there are two fronts to have a struggle for Pakistan, first within country and second aginst foreign capitalist exploitation.

taking off from a strain in this article i would like to say that, yes, the metaphysical examination of pakistan is warranted. in the light of the almost congenital conlfict betwen hindus and muslims, the traditions of true islam, properly and peacefully practiced leave no room for conflict or attrition with any other race or creed. in fact i have often toyed with idea that sufism and islam mystical strains could lead us to everlasting communal peace.

Good Article.

But I have always wondered why people from the other side of Wagha bring religion and the prophets everytime they have to make a point.

Perhaps, Bilalji, SameerJB and a few others can explain it.

Indians do have a very iriitating habit of sitting on their perches and giving sermons on society, civilazation, economics and democracy and the reason they manage to do it because they generally (generally is the operative part) don`t wear religion on their sleeve (the practice of having it on their forehead is also becoming less over time). Indians, inspite of increased religiousity, normally keep religion in their heart or hearth and don`t take the responsibility of defending the name of that entity who is expected to defend the humanity in general. (Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc. never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)

And here one finds people going berserk interpreting words from the book written 1400 years ago ad-infinitum justifying not only the Rights but also the Wrongs and if both not possible then just stating that `ways and reasons of God are unknown and can`t be understood always`(Mr. Adnan please note) . The worst part is when one finds young people hooked on to this exercise. How all these intelligent, rational people believe that God is so `Wehla` that he actually may have left all these instructions about how to wake up and how to sleep etc! Disappointing scenario indeed.

A few months back, I was astonished when I came to know that a friend`s daughter (in cosmopolitan Karachi) aged 9 years go to madarassah to learn reading the Book. I was horrified that everybody goes through this process at such tender age. No wonder, there is so much of indoctrination. Here, my daughter asked me `What is Hindu` when census man came for head counting. I told her that there is no hurry. She has enough time to know.Oh God!

Have mercy on the world!

Found this interview on ``Pakistan`s agenda`` very interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/fmqu/jamaat.html

``Truth and its various components like knowledge and expertise should be acknowledged and appreciated regardless of the source.``

Kewl!


``Any good book is Islamic, any activity enhancing a person’s nafs (soul) is Islamic, any language you learn that helps you communicate your purpose of life which is unique and positive (even if it isn’t Arabic) is Islamic, any expression you choose to convey the message which is a means to an end (as long as innocent lives aren’t at stake) is Islamic, Any marketing for a cause that is modern outward looking and gives human beings a greater economic standing so they are in a position to think about their higher
selves (within the constraints of morality), is Islamic.``

Now that, dear lady, is bullcrap.

``Hindu fanaticism`` in present day India too wants the same thing, of course from a Hindu point of view...they want to assimilate everybody, Sikh, Christian, Muslim...even some different Hindus...in fact, one of the theories going around is that Muslims were and are constantly afraid of Hinduism`s assimilative character. Thus Pakistan? Probably one of the reasons...Now, what you say would scare the sh!t out of any non-Muslim in your country and p!ss off most people outside. You accept people on their terms, not yours...I would resent being called a Muslim, because I am not...just like you resent Jinnah being called a kafir or Pakistan being called a kafir state...in fact what you call fundamentalists, are poor blokes who are forced into doing what they are doing...what you are doing out of the comfort of your San Jose room, madam, is entirely out of your will and is more dangerous than what the fundoos are doing...hope your views don`t rub off onto YLH...God protect him...I consciously did not talk anything about Pakistan or Islam...you were including others in your concept without their consent and I had to speak out

Let me try again.

It was a well-intentioned effort. That is nice.

The article had a positive tone. That is the need of the hour. Please keep up that positive spirit.

So much so that I began reading this article with pleasure. Here, I thought, was at long-last the much needed positive, constructive thinking.

That is why when the article soon deteriorated into worthless tired-old fluff, my disappointment was deep.

Dear author, what is needed is some NEW thinking. Out-of-the box thinking.

The world may be round alright but you can not go north by going south no matter how hard you run.

Re: Kabuliwallah #24

Thats a good post. We should accept diversification rather than assimiliation.

Aristotle

Mohajir #23

The article is very interesting but is it genuine?

The website seems to be some kind of fundamentalist site. I am deeply suspicious of fundamentalists of any kind. They are not above making things up.

Does anyone know if ``Jamhooria Islamia`` really is a monthly Baluchi magazine published from Panj-gar? Is Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khan is some real person?

I haven`t seen a bigger load of crap than that article Urstrul tried to write a few weeks ago.

Dear sarwari:

I`ve read your article a couple of times and I am thoroughly confused(what`s new...sigh!!). My first impulse was to dismiss it as the meanderings of a brilliant first-generation Pakistani-American caught in the cross-hairs of an irreconcilable inner debate about religion and identity. Upon second thought, there is way too much theorizing about religion..what it actually means and how it fits into the neat little contradiction we call the land of the pure. And yet in the end there is no grand finale to pull it all together. Ramblings are nice(Zehra`s article is an example) if they are cathartic and pinch others into taking voyages of self-discovery. They grate on the brain if they are trying to provide coherent answers to what are essentially eternal, universal and in many cases personal questions.

In one broad sweep you`ve tried to delineate new moral underpinnings for a religion that has lost its way in the modern world and at the same time tried to defend it by inviting us to study its scientific moorings. You don`t stop there. You try and apply this glorious vision you have to the land of your ancestors and the motives of its creator. By all means do that. But please remember that your musings are little different from Scarlett`s utterings at the time of the American civil war. They make for a cute story but sadly leave little room for enlightenment-personal or collective. The rest of the world apparently marches to a different tune.

later

-sac

P.S: Contrary to his Einstein`s assertion, God does play dice with the universe. But that`s a debate for another time.

Re: Humsab

``(Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc. never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)``

That`s because we aren`t taught religion in our schools in India. No one ever asked me read to any holy books but the day I got a math problem wrong all hell broke loose in the class and at home.

Dear Chowk Interactors,

The utter lack of understanding that you people have shown for this article has made me realize that in the world where ``IT`` people from the silicon valley rule, true intellecutualism is under grave threat. I hold the silicon valleyites in greatest contempt for their lack of tolerance and understanding. No not everything works according to the binary code, not everything is C++... and sure as hell not Java.

This is the problem with any site emerging out of a mix of Computer Science and pseudo-intellectualism. Belief systems are applied across the board, and things are judged according to preconceived notions... What do these words mean anyway? Secularism, Islamic etc...

Unlike all of you fools, when I first read this article I saw a very progressive and secular spirit ... a very human spirit. Yes indeed, every good thing is ``Islamic`` and that is my faith... my personal definition of Islam... as in the words of Ataturk ``The Islam I profess has nothing against reason and Progress`` March 1924 hours before he abolished the Khilafat.

So who is a ``fundoo`` and ``Hindoo`` to tell me what my Islam is? Why cant my Islam equal Secularism ... dont even try to answer that question because you dont have an answer.

I dont agree with all that is in this article ...

I dont agree with Dr Abdul Wudood`s whatever the writer quotes... and I certainly dont agree with

mixing religion and politics.... but you are the ones who are at fault ! Because you did not make the subtle distinction that the brilliant mind of Aisha Sarwari was able to .... Nation and State are two different concepts ... hence despite the last line which holds true in another relevant sphere ...

``For the reason thatour foundation is, “La ilaha Illallah, Muhaumadur rasulullah” (There is NO God, but Allah, And Mohammed is his messenger)``

Aisha also says

`“Pakistan wasn’t created to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission”, but

instead a system of governance that was to be essentially secular and democratic`

and

`Jinnah, was a man who chose people regardless of their religion, caste or creed to do a certain job essential for that time, which proved that he was a just man. Truth and its various components like knowledge and expertise should be acknowledged and

appreciated regardless of the source. That in my opinion is being a true Muslim`

Now unless you CS people halt for a second, and learn the valid political science distinctions between Nation and State... you will not understand the brilliance of this article!

I suggest all of you ``wanna be intellectuals`` computer science nerds read Ziya Gokalp and Iqbal a little more to understand the Muslim mind... wouldnt hurt to read BR Ambedkar`s `Pakistan or Partition of India` ....

Humanism is not to deny differences... humanism to accept them... and tolerate them! One thing I think Chowk people really need to understand !

In short : Scout is right!

SAC : Aisha is not a Pakistani American but a Pakistani international student! Dont insult her!

YLH

PS I am still at odds to understand what Indians have against this article? If the Words ``Hindu Fanaticism`` bug them so much, then they should come up with an alternate explanation for the Babri Masjid Fiasco ... surely you cant point fingers at us Pakistanis for denying Fundamentalism and fanaticism amongst Muslims?

If saying secularism in manifest in Islam is assimilation, then I am sorry, but you all need to get a life... and learn some English while you are at it!

Granted the intentions were quite possibly genuine and sincere, the end product turned out to be just too goody-goody; an effort to please all Muslims at best at the expense of alienating all Non Muslims at worst. Precisely the take of the Pakistani govt!

Nevertheless a good first effort. Objectivity and impartiality is something you are accountable for as a writer. Dont get carried away by the sway of your religious and jingoist sentiments, granted which the GOP tries to infuse in every single child who is fortunate enough to see the inside of a school.

One learns best from those who are fearless critics of one`s work.

Asim

Sincerely

Asim

Very interesting article by Aitzaz Ahsan. He is distinguished lawyer, ex-interior minister, and the most loyal of Benazir`s loyalists (unfortunately). He writes well, though.

``Maneesha does not know Pakistani polemics

Aitzaz Ahsan

The Pakistani does not have to be an Indian, but he has to be somebody. Who is that somebody? Again hundreds of newspaper articles every year show us groping for answers, or self-righteously providing misconceived absolutes. One set of absolutists, the Pakistani fundamentalists, would make the Indus Person an Arab. No more no less. That is the point to which genealogies are also traced. Another set of absolutists, the Indian historians, insist that he is an Indian, pure and simple. They, like Takekar, assert that his Pakistani identity is artificial and contrived. The rationalist, on the other hand, must seek his identity in his own land, the Indus region, and in his own nation, the Pakistani nation, a mix, perhaps of the Persian, Central Asian and Indian, but unique and distinct.....

I pointed out in The Indus Saga that Pakistan has always had an identity; and it has always had a soul. Its soul has often been lost to it by interpretations based on illogical myths and obscurantist double-speak. It is today battered by the intolerant and fratricidal schisms of sectarian, linguistic, and regional groups; brutalised by ostentatious consumerism and corruption; held hostage by the manifest opportunism and inconstancy of its ruling classes. Yet this soul is a colourful and vibrant fabric in which many distinct and differing threads have been interwoven and have peacefully co-existed, each adding to the strength and value of the weave.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html

Dear Aisha:

An interesting effort. I have read your article twice. Now, I am in a position to make a few comments.

You have indeed tried to come to grips with an extremely difficult topic.

Are religion (Mazhab?) and Dean (way of life) mutually exclusive categories? Please explain.

You argue that the demand for a separate homeland for the Indian Muslims was in reaction to “the clamor of growing Hindu fanaticism in politics”. What is the basis of your argument? Is this what you have learned at home, in your Pakistani school texts, or some other authentic historical sources? Please explain and, if possible, provide verifiable citations.

You write: “. . . when we begin to think of revolutionizing the culture of fundamentalism into one of democracy the unit we deal with isn’t the society but the individual”. Are you saying that we have a broad culture of fundamentalism in Pakistan which needs to be transformed into a democratic culture? How? It seems that this could be done by focusing upon Deen (Islamic way of life) but not religion (Mazhab?). Is this really your position? If so, what kind of Deen would the Pakistani non-Muslims citizens follow? But, if you are inclined toward Jinnah’s vision of Pakistan, may be this is not a real issue for you (in view of Jinnah’s secular stance). Please explain your position.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Humsab #22, ``Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc.

never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.``

Oh man, this is hilarious. Obviously you haven`t been reading what saxena says, and the hidden agenda behind sadna`s propaganda, or Jay`s frenzied cutting and pasting anti-Islamic, anti-Pakistani news articles.

Your very own Sadna`s dictionary consists of a few words like Taleban, kaafir, TNT, and other such religious bullshi.t.

And you think we`re obsessed with Islam?

Think before you make such a stupid statement again. The Indians on this board are no angels, and they get orgasmic pleasure (except for a few) out of jumping at the opportunity of criticizing Pakistanis and making a mockery of their religion.

What`s right is right, what`s fair is fair. We have our share of idiots, you have yours. But the dirt is getting tossed by both sides, not just one.

So brother, think about that with a glass of cool water :).

Humsab #22, ``A few months back, I was astonished when I came to know that a friend`s daughter (in cosmopolitan Karachi) aged 9 years go to madarassah to learn reading the Book. I was horrified that everybody goes through this process at such tender age.``

Oh, I totally relate to how you feel. Just today, I read an article in Newsday about an Indian multi-millionaire in Berkeley, California who had three pubescent sex slaves imported from a small town in India, one of them died due to carbon monoxide poisoning in his apartment building.

He said he`d been having sex with the two sisters since they were nine years old.

I was very shocked and disgusted. The guy was very well respected in the Indian community in California, and people looked up to him as an example to other Indians.

Too bad desi male bas.tards exist across the border as well.

Let`s not take anything away from Aitezaz Ahsan for his PPP links. The book came out a few years ago and in it he has presented a strong case for the `people of the Indus` having a distinct identity taking shape over a period of 5000 years.

He adequately shuts up both the Be-an-Arab and the Be-an-Indian tantrums.

Kabuliwala:

My intention was not to make Islam assimilate into the bloodstream of the non-Muslim world, or the religious minorities in Pakistan. The target of the write up was mainly the Pakistani Muslims and an attempt to change our way of understanding Islam so that we can question and criticize our freedom so it doesn’t cost those who don’t think like us. However, you rightly pointed out that attempts of this kind are Hindu strategy for ages and are threatening as they should be. I understand that you have something to point out, and thank you…but YLH has a head on his shoulders not mine.

YLH and Ras and all others

Thanks…Though its funny how even months can make one think with a mew perspective, and there are faults in this article but thanks for picking out what was good in it.

Urstruly:

I really appreciate your encouragement… nafs I guess is more consciousness than soul. Apparently its withdrawn form us during sleep so its got to be.



I like dwelling on Pakistani identity, and though it may seem like a duel to you too, between me and me, it’s basically the following,

-Judgment is a prerequisite to mastering the art of any progress, but it should have a balance between absolute right and the philosophical “nothing is really right or wrong but thinking makes it so”

-Islam offers Muslims many clear cut examples of how one can make truth triumph over untruth. And improve quality of existence.

-In all religions and beliefs or traditions there seems to be one common theme, service for others beyond and after ourselves, leads to a more fulfilling life. A collective social order more to raise standards of living than self-preservation.

-The ultimate goals of all bearable civilizations are justice and equality. I don’t think ideals can get any better. My Islam has those concepts embedded in it, but Muslims are a mirror of the opposite… Hindu influence I guess.

Now Jinnah was a proponent of justice and equality. He was when he wanted Hindu Muslim unity and he was when he made Pakistan. Drinking and eating pork are possibly “unislamic” acts but, so is making “NON_ONION_EATERS” sunnah followers, and its definitely better than having a father of a nation who was member of the London Vegetarian Association. (Jinnah vs Gandhi by Merrim Allen)

Wassalam.

Aisha Sarwari

Scout # 36

You have missed the point. I deliberately chose those names from Indian Chowksters who are either self-proclaimed bigots or have been labeled as such. What you are ignoring is that Sadna’s lectures are predominantly limited to socio, politico economic situations and threat of fundamentalism.

She has written against India’s lunatic elements also.

Saxena, I, guess is, atheist and so no chance of any religious sermons on message of Gita and Profile of Rama. Hence, always pointing out outdated notions and beliefs. His method of making his point is not something I am comfortable with. But then he has been getting as bad or rough as he gives.

McGupta has also been in the same league.

Jay of course is one who follows the message of Gita in right earnest. His responses or his messages are always written with absolute equanimity. Dukh main Sukh main Ek jaise. Even when he writes infuriating material, the tone and tenor is even which is totally devoid of ‘Jhallahat’ ( Sorry, could not find English equivalent of it). Now, this quality is certainly missing in his bete-noire. Anyhow, even he does not write on ‘Greatness of his religion’.

As for share of idiots on both sides, you are absolutely right. I don’t think even one of the aforementioned names have ever suggested that only angels walk on this side. And yes, dirt gets tossed from both sides. However, please note, I was mentioning about obsession with religion and not religion as such.

Scout # 37

How can you equate religious teaching at tender age with rape of young innocent girls? I have problems with indoctrinating young minds but not with religious learning. I feel this should be done at a time when children are old enough to sift the material to have an ethical, moral message and carry on with life without carrying this baggage wholesale.

As for the achievements of that Respected Reddy of Berkeley, California, have you found anybody admiring Reddy openly for a well-done job? (I have used word ‘openly’ because as you said and I agree men and particularly Desi men are horrible and so may relish Reddy’s exploits in private but won’t have the courage to do it in Public.) Even Reddy himself cried (must be out of shame and the fear of jail) in Court and knew he has brought shame to his family also. So, rest assured, raping young girls have no sponsors and it is not a socially acceptable norm but sending 9 years old kids to religious school is not only accepted but is encouraged you know where. I hope you understand my point as my inadequate intelligence failed me in my earlier post to which you reacted in a hurry and with ‘Jhallaahat’.

Thanks for suggesting cold-water treatment but frankly I am an extraordinary lazy person and so find it difficult to open freeze, take glass, pour water and then drink. The best for me is to cup my hand and drink water directly from tap.

Best Wishes

Yo, Aisha; here is something for you to digest, from that Pakistani site somebody quoted on this board:

-----Begin Quote------

Q: The women issue is very controversial nowadays. Taliban and some fundamentalist organizations restrict the freedom of women. While some progressive Muslim intellectuals are insisting that the women are equal to men in all spheres. What are Qazi`s views on women?

A: As I said earlier, the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)`s views on women are the exact views of Qazi. Equality of men and women is stupidity. What men can do, women cannot do and what women can do, men cannot do. Women are weak physically and mentally compared to men. For this we do not need any proof other than to just look at men and women. Men have to take care of women all the time. If some women do not have any male relatives, then they have to find a man and marry him so that he will take care of her. Women should not have life outside the family. Education can be provided to them but not to compete with men in public. Neither they can fight in war nor they can be of use in peacetime politics. Qazi had said once that JI comes to power in Pakistan, he will abolish the voting rights of women and minorities. Only the Muslim men can participate in voting or standing for elections. When I asked the proof from Hadiths, he had quoted many Hadiths in support of that. I asked him why is that it is never talked openly in the public by Jamaat. Qazi had said that the hints are all over the place. But JI did not make it a big issue since the women who currently have the voting may vote against JI in the elections if such a thing is said openly. For this I was against. in my opinion, since all the main leaders of Jamaat believes that women will not have voting rights after they come to power, they should openly say that. If you do not say now and then you remove the voting rights later when you come to power, that is going to build a resentment among the people. But Qazi was firmly of the opinion that JI should not say that now.

------End Quote------

That ought to keep you, Scout, and a few others the 13th serial wife of some Baluch camel jockey and out of these sites. (YLH, don`t get any ideas and try to become a Baluch camel jockey. You are what you are: a Rutgers - Ivy League graduate.) Keep dreaming about pork-eating being better than vegetarianism while you are barefoot, pregnant (with your 17th child), and loading & unloading camels.

-----Begin Quote -----

Q:That brings us to the question of minorities. Will they have to pay Jizya tax?

A:Yes. They have to pay the tax. As explained by Qazi, the idea of Jizya is not protection money. But it is a monetary force on the non-Muslim to convert to Islam. Once the Jamaat comes to power, the minorities will be induced (forced) to become Muslims either by monetary or psychological factors. JI is already equating the India with Hindus so that the Hindus of Pakistan will be forced to become Muslims. This was very successful strategy during the Babri Masjid riots. JI actively involved in destroying the Hindu temples in Punjab and Sindh. We ordered the destruction of the Hindu family property too. But our main aim was to destroy the Hindu temples. We wrote the JI pamphlets that destroying each pagan temple make a Muslim move closer to heaven of Allah. We used the Hadiths in all the pamphlets. Babar destroyed the Ram temple in Ayodhya. Because he was a true believer. The same way every Muslim should take upon himself to destroy the Hindu temples in Pakistan. Our idea was to encourage the Muslims of India also to destroy the Hindu temples in India. But this was not met with much success since the Hindu police in India started attacking the Muslims who were doing the Allah`s duty.

-----End Quote-----

What was that dream about being a secular state? Ha, ha! You brain-dead folks have no chance. Your last chance for that was to stay within India but no, you had to go and get yourself the Land of the Pure, so you can consort with Mullah Muhammad Omar & Company. Have you considered a marriage with him? Afghanistan, I hear, is an even more Islamic state than the L of the P. You should be able to discuss your brand of Islam with the learned Mullah. He will probably have you stoned to death; all the better for him as he will be able to take another wife as ordained in that book to end all books.

-----Begin Quote-----

Q: What kind of government that JI envisages for Pakistan?

A: It will be the Sharia govt. Sharia will be made our constitution so that the eminent Muslim scholars who had completed the schooling in Madrassas will be appointed as the Judges in every court. Qazi wanted to make the presidium on the same model as the Khalifa. Presently our ideas is that the entire top leadership of JI as well as all three military Generals will be part of the presidium for which the Qazi will be the Kalifa. We are keenly watching the progress of Taliban and learning from it. We are impressed with the Taliban on the women issue, minorities issue and law and order issue. Mullah Omar is a great friend of Qazi. Omar had visited his house many times. In the tentative talks, we had decided to form union of Pakistan and Afghanistan once the right conditions are set in Pakistan (i.e. the JI government in Pakistan). Our motto is Constant Jihad. The idea is to keep Pakistan in a constant state of Jihad all the time. Qazi`s vision is that Pakistan will be center of the new Islamic Empire that stretches from Burma to Afghanistan and from Srilanka to Tajikistan including Kashmir. Towards that end, Jamaat will use all tactics from terrorism in the kafir-controlled areas to negotiations in the Muslim controlled areas. Already the Jamaat leaders of Bangladesh and Jamaat leaders of India had accepted the primacy of Pakistani leadership in this regard.

-----End Quote-----

Guess what, I too am impressed by the Taliban`s stand on women. Going by the rantings and ravings of females on Chowk, the learned Mullah might almost be right. So, bring on the burqas and stop women`s schooling, right now! Female Muslims are good for only one thing.

Islam Zindabad!

Maulana Mullah Zindabad!

L of the P Paindabad!

Allah Hafiz!

(Hey, YLH, is that enough sloganeering in the signature line?)

Dear Aisha

I too like the other chowkwallas had to read your article at least twice to determine the gist of what it is you are trying to say. In an article that initially promised stream of consciousness, cathartic writing, the juxtaposition of analytic thought created, in my opinion some confusion.

I`m not sure I agree with you though. Wouldn`t` it be lovely if we could all agree to see the `true Islam in the perspective of Deen and not Madhab` ? Wouldn`t it be lovely if everyone agreed that `anything` could be Islamic (within reason) ? But everyone doesn`t agree and the problem could well be in the definition of `within reason`. Everyone has their own interpretation of religious teachings and when they don`t - when a collective begins to emerge amongst the various corners of thought, and the Talibans of Afghanistan or the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia come randomly to mind - violence, repression, intolerance, never seem to be too far behind.

How do you propose to walk the fine line of balancing me against you ? I think Islam is nothing if not Symbolic (I know I`m using the word in a different sense here then that intended by you) - best understood by Saints - a `haseen imtizaj` if you will of Sufism and Samaritanism where one is committed to God and the other to Man.

All of the above is open to misinterpretation - as much on your part as on mine. Pakistan was a symbol. Many things to many people. In the confusion of the past 50 odd years, that`s what`s been lost.

Cheers

-P

Ref sarwari #: 39

[My intention was not to make Islam assimilate into the bloodstream of the non-Muslim world, or the religious minorities in Pakistan. The target of the write up was mainly the Pakistani Muslims and an attempt to change our way of understanding Islam so that we can question and criticize our freedom so it doesn’t cost those who don’t think like us. However, you rightly pointed out that attempts of this kind are Hindu strategy for ages and are threatening as they should be.]

Hey Allah, purge this poor virgin`s head of all Hindu-inspired thoughts. What You have demanded is absolute submission and this misguided girl is thinking impure thoughts! May it be Your will that she marries a Mullah so that she can be correctly instructed in the Way of Islam!

[The ultimate goals of all bearable civilizations are justice and equality. I don’t think ideals can get any better. My Islam has those concepts embedded in it, but Muslims are a mirror of the opposite… Hindu influence I guess.]

You know, Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, must be a bearable civilization; nay, even a pleasant one, since no Hindus were allowed in for a long time and Saudi laws were enacted without the influence of Hindus, Christians, Jews, or any other folks.

What an utterly stupid way of blaming Hindus for everything wrong with Islam! Why don`t you check to see if Life`s Little Instruction Book (known to you Submitters as the Quran) has got any part in it for justice and equality for women, let alone minorities?

[Drinking and eating pork are possibly “unislamic” acts but, so is making “NON_ONION_EATERS” sunnah followers, and its definitely better than having a father of a nation who was member of the London Vegetarian Association. (Jinnah vs Gandhi by Merrim Allen)]

Got any more goras to quote on the superiority of pork vs vegetables, Jinnah vs Gandhi, L of the P vs Hindustan, etc.?

Ref aikrindd #: 38

[He (Aitezaz Ahsan) adequately shuts up both the Be-an-Arab and the Be-an-Indian tantrums.]

Please, remain a Pakistani. The FBI can then limit its searches for terrorists to a smaller area of the subcontinent.

Ref scout #: 37

[Just today, I read an article in Newsday about an Indian multi-millionaire in Berkeley, California who had three pubescent sex slaves imported from a small town in India]

Must have been reading The Life of Prophet Muhammed.

Ref hamidm #: 18

[but, they don`t know that a 18 year old macallan in hand is better than two ageless houris in the bush ......]

Was that the Macallan or are you genuinely this funny?

Ageless houris in the bush, indeed! That is truly inspired.

I can`t believe the Chowk staff let that through!

Still ROTFL.

ROmair,

{{The Pakistani does not have to be an Indian, but he has to be somebody. Who is that somebody?}}

That somebody is a PAKISTANI! Jeez, even after 50 yrs of independance it boggles my mind why some Pakistanis are still struggling to define their identity.

Aisha,

A great attempt to interpret the meaning of pakistanb for the US based pakistanis. For the millions in pakistan who yell, La Ilaha Illallah, pakistan ka matlab kya, the answer is clear as as the sound from AK47, they are going to the 200,000 madrassas, they know the meaning of islam and jihad and pakistan.

Then there is the other group, who go to the allegedly `secular` schools where the curriculum demands the identification of hindud by the age of ten, where k for kafir is the first letter of the alphabet, they go on to become soldiers along with the madrassa products and at heights of kargill, the meaning of pakistan becomes clear tpo them.

There is the other group like you based in the `democratic` countries, whre the death in kashmir you read in the front pages, the work of the patriotic jihadists, and the meaning of pakistan becomes clearer by the day.

Then of course tyhere is the last group, the accidental theorists. For these few, Jinnah never wanted pakistan, he was either tricked by the dirty crafty hindoos, or like a burst condom event pakistan came into being.

Ofcourse, you appear to be in the YLH mullah school, sitting in the US, studying some skill based subjects like IT, and uses the spare time to in intelectual persuites, since that is not required for the subject you are stdying to arrive at some crappy, wishful thinking modernised interpretations of book. You should realise that no, no mullah supports your view, and your crdibility is no more than a mullah teaching you the patent laws on softwares.

You are like YLH, a strw figure for the indians to shoot, and wish you a happy life at that.

regards

jay

Re: spout

I know you said your vision isn`t too great and you wear soda-bottle glasses, but I don`t think that gives you a right to be delusional. I have NEVER talked about ``my`` holy book being better than another. I don`t even have a holy book to defend as I am almost an atheist! What I have done is pointed out some choice quotes from the Kooran to expose negative aspects of Islam.

It`s amazing to observe young Pakistanis in action. They praise this Sarwari character as if she were a genius of some sort...she can`t even put together a coherent paragraph without abhorrent grammar and has nothing insightful to say. All she has done here is wax on about Islam and Pakistan in a childish, romantic way.

When a true genius like hamidm comes along, they chastise him. Throw him over the border if you don`t want him.

re: anybody

From my very limited knowledge of poetry I always thought it was `har TADBEER sey pehley. Is it really TAQDEER or is it a typo?

Terrific audio interview with Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir, and former head of the Pakistan Human Rights Commission. She’s been at the forefront of the movements for women’s rights, human rights and peace in Pakistan for twenty years. She is one of the six recipients of the new Millennium peace Prize for Women, which is cosponorsed by the UN Development Fund for Women.

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/fa/20010312.fa.ram

In her interview, Ms. Jehangir indicates that she wants to take the prize to Delhi and Dhaka and celebrate it with the women of India and Bangladesh, since the problems she fights against in Pakistan are all too common both in India and in Bangladesh. Truly a tenacious, gritty lady, and a citizen of the whole world. Ms. Jehangir, we are proud of you and salute you!

True to form, everything goes down the naallah in Hindu-Muslim India-Pakistan flames. To be fair, there wasn`t much in the article except good intentions to begin with.

I hope someone more capable will take up those good intentions and deal rationally with what ahmedb called a very complex subject.

The only saving grace is that two undoubtedly capable people scout and RSaxena seem to have called off their truce. For a brief day to two, the place had gotten terribly boring :) :)

Jagdeep:

Ayesha is correct! It is `Taqdeer` than `Tadbeer.`
Think about the meaning. It`s saying:

scout #36
Whats all this? Heeeheeehaaahaaahaaaa (diabolical laugh). The way to identify people with a hidden agenda is by their diabolical laugh, disheveled hangers-on named Raabert and a snooty cat.. Mona is interviewing for Mogambo so I`m having to type this in myself..

But seriously, those women and men who want to make the transition from the drawing-room league(where ones efforts are always appreciated and the right putdown makes the problems and uncomfortable people go away) to the league of responsible adults, if only by keeping themselves informed, I would recommend hearing Asma Jahangir in her own words.

shammi has posted it #50

She is a woman I REALLY REALLY admire. Her fearlessness and lack of ambiguity in taking up life-threatening challenges headon to do what she believes is right is truly inspiring(nazar na lagey). When she need not be facing the heat when there are so many safe and easy rationalizations around...what can I say, I am speechless with admiration..

Sadhana

ahmadb #35:

Maulana Bilal:

Yaar such bataiN?

--kabhi kabhi, aap ki patience aur tolerance say uljhan si honay lagti hay.
--kabhi kabhi, reading between your lines, ooktahat honay lagti hay humaiN.
--kabhi kabhi, ji chahta hay kay b’bang-e-deh’l aap saaf saaf baat likhaiN.
--kabhi kabhi, kabhi kabhi ... aur bhee khayal aatay haiN zeh’n main.

ijazat,

dua’go,

t

PS: And I know for a fact you have a sense of humour:)

PPS: Jaisa kay Kitab maiN dar’j hay, Islam is ‘ad-deen-ul-yas’r’ --- you enquired, [...Are religion (Mazhab?) and Dean (way of life) mutually exclusive categories?..] ---Islam is the ‘din’ --- and its interpretation leading to practice is called ‘madhab’ or mazhab --- hence asif, adnan, ali, farangi, sac, fuzair are all followers of the same din but ostensibly different ‘mazabs’.

It is the intractability, rigidness, inflexibility and intolerance of the present leadership of these mazhabs that fosters a fascistic narrow image of this great religion.

It results in what happened last night in Lahore --- three men on motorcycle sprayed bullets into those gathered for isha prayers.

It is often the collusion between these ‘pseudo’ maulanas and the aspiring leadership of the ‘vested’ interest ---at various times shifting in proportion between the Army (and that includes Air Farce and Navel - just for you the artist formerly known as Umairr:) ) feudals, beaurecrats that robs the ordinary Muslim of decency and any fair chance he may have had in this world.

This is true of Pakistan and if you change the players in the parenthesis, it is true of any Muslim majority country.

(Apologies for my indulgence here. You know very well as a norm I avoid these parochial tunnel visioned matches.)

{I guess I am onto something important here....hey hamidm ... will you please show up and complete my thoughts.....someone is beaming me elsewhere...:)}

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CC14Df01.html

Is Pakistan closer to Arab world or India?

Paying tribute to ``Hindu`` basant is a risky business. One has to appease or stand up against not only Islamists and Two-Nation Theorists, but also those who are bent upon changing Pakistan`s geography and want to shift it from South Asia to the Middle East.

Asks Rahman, ``Whether the rightists like it or not, it is a fact that we have more cultural similarities with India than with our Muslim brethren in Iran or Afghanistan. Who in Afghanistan or Iran chews pan? Where else but on the subcontinent are red chilies an essential ingredient of our food. Do Arabs wear dhoti, shalwar or sherwani? Our marriage customs and the rituals we follow after a person`s death are common with India, except for the religious parts. We watch Indian movies and TV because they produce entertaining and glamorous programs. We understand the language and the family problems they present are similar to ours. In which other country is the saas-bahu (mother-in-law versus daughter-in-law) relationship the subject of so many plays and movies?`` But he still feels the need to insist, ``In spite of all these cultural similarities with India, we are and will remain a separate nation``.

It is tempting to deride Pakistani intellectuals. But with 15,000 madrasas (seminaries) producing on an average 500,000 graduates believing in Talibanism or jihadism and about 50,000 jihadi graduates from armed training schools being produced every year, adding to the list of 1.7 million trained jihadis already in the country, it cannot be much fun for the liberal intellectual to live and stand up to the jihadi mentality. If they are still clinging to sub-continental traditions such as basant, and defending it publicly, one can only applaud them for their courage

Jay,

And you are nothing but a Bal Thackerey ... a fool who wont amount to much. One who is too scared to see the truth for yourself.

Sincerely

YLH

The intolerance shown by Indians on this thread is a clear indication of who wants peace and who wants confrontation.

That tormented soul Nixon, abused as he is, was right when in his assessment of India and Indian People.

Jay and other Indians,

Thanks for opening my eyes once again, I was almost beginning to think of Indians as human beings.

YLH

In response to temporal (Reply # 54)
Dear temporal:

Your statement: ``. . . kabhi kabhi, aap ki patience aur tolerance say uljhan si honay lagti hay.``

My reply: Main bhi insaan hoon. Uljhan mujhay bhi hoti hay, magar ka karoon. Apni aadat aur aqal say majboor hoon. More later.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

As I sat to read, ``The Meaning of Pakistan,`` I ran into a a very sad as well as strange news. A must read for Pakistanis!

With the utmost dismay and grief I forward the news of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan`s removal. It feels as if our integrity, honor, pride, and dignity
yet again was sold off for pennies - Imagine asking an individual of a caliber of Dr. AQK - the man who has single handedly made Pakistan the
Big Brother of all Muslims countries, Got us the membership in the elite N-5 club, and has provided the opportunity to have the biggest gun -was asked to become a minister - sorry an ``advisor with the status of minister``.

I am sure any professional, whether in Pakistan or else where will know that the most filthy thing an Inventor, a Pioneer, a Visionary can be
called is a Minister or a Politician. Having the privilege to see Dr. AQK speak in the late 80s - I have yet to see a Pakistani of his
intellectual caliber - so humbly and gracefully be deeply in love with Pakistan.

Dr. AQK the government of Pakistan may have betrayed you, Pakistan Military may have betrayed you, Pakistani rulers may have betrayed you -
But the people of Pakistan have not. The Pakistani Nation and the Muslim ummah at large are indebted by your service. History of Pakistan and our coming generation will remember you as the Golden Child of Pakistan - who served his Motherland with dignity, honor, and pride.

Unfortunately, much could not be said for our rulers, politicians,ministers and their advisors. Past, Present and Future - Governments of
Pakistan, Rulers of Pakistan, and the So called guardians of Pakistan should always remember there is yet to come a leader of Pakistan after
Mohammed Ali Jinnah - who this nation granted death in peace and civility. This cruel reality is the constant reminder that the struggle
that was started by Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, the passion that was fueled by Alma Mohammed Iqbal, and the war led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah has not yet
reached its conclusion.

The logical explanation of the chain of events from the ``key`` U.S. bipartisan congressional members` visit to Pakistan, CE`s meeting with
``key`` US officials, Kofi Anan`s visit to Pakistan, India`s willingness to talk, and Dr. AQK`s removal could be that our beloved leader has made a compromise to roll back - Pakistan`s Nuclear and Strategic defense infrastructure - if this speculation is true than the so called heroes
would have single handedly committed the worst act of treason in the history of Pakistan.

Had this been an Normal Government, a true Islamic Nation, a Free Nation - the leaders would have taken the Nation and Dr. AQK into confidence - or at least should have had the courage to offer an explanation. Will they?

Please write to our easily pressurized, threatened, and scared government to void making this mistake as this will single handedly
drive the last nail in our coffins.

Musharaf: CE@pak.gov.pk
Dawn: editor@dawn.com
The News: editor@jang.com.pk

Editor: editor@helpsavepakistan.com
Information: info@helpsavepakistan.com
Sales: sales@helpsavepakistan.com
Address: P.O.Box 1776
Sugar Land, Texas 77487-1776
Tel: (713) 590-2341 Ext: 4534
Regional: For local phone numbers
http://www.helpsavepakistan.com/aboutus.htm

re: #60

the jang report yesterday had some lines to the effect that dr khan was accused(?) by a court in holland for theft of some kind many years ago.

the ce`s statement that there are hundreds of equally good scientists in pakistan should be of some comfort to the disappointed people.

From The Nation (Lahore) today:

Jehad against intolerant jehadis

By Wajid Shamsul Hasan

Pakistan has had enough of it at the hands of the extremist elements out there to destroy the country in the name of religion. It is no doubt late but never too late. If Musharraf regime gets down seriously to taking the sectarian bull by the horn as per its recent promises, it would be too good to be true. The jehadi elements that are threatening to take over by dint of their muscle power could only meet their nemesis at the hands of their creators.
The sectarian problem and the evil presence of the extremists have been the cause of sleepless nights for those who could read the writing on the wall. Life in Pakistan`s largest province Punjab and Karachi has been rendered short, brutish and nasty by the extremists who settle their scores with each other with impunity.
Quaid-i-Azam was fully aware of the fragmentary role of the 72 sects that had marred Islam`s pristine glory. In order to save Pakistan from falling into the quagmire of sectarian politics as is being witnessed now, he minced no words in declaring that in Pakistan religion would have nothing to do with the business of the state and that its citizens would cease to be Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc., in the political sense.
Like great Muslim reformer Syed Ahmad Khan and his own contemporary Allama Iqbal, the Quaid too was condemned a heretic by the mullas. However, the Muslims did not listen to religions giants like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi and voted for a clean shaved, much westernised Jinnah, and despite their tooth and nail opposition, Pakistan became a reality. In the post-partition Pakistan, the religious extremists found a common cause in their tenacious effort to seize victory out of the jaws of defeat, and now want to destroy its civil society in the name of Islam.
The mullas got the greatest opportunity when the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan. General Ziaul Haq also employed them to counter democratic forces such as the Movement for the Restoration of Democracy (1981-1988). Besides their supportive role for the Taliban and jehad in Kashmir, the part played by them as saboteurs to the cause of democracy has remained constant. Pakistan has also become a battleground for a proxy war between Shias and Sunnis.
Successive governments have become increasingly prone to blackmail by the religious elements. The patronage extended to them by the intelligence apparatuses for employing their services has helped them become strong enough to boast of having larger quantity and better quality of guns than possessed by the law-enforcers.
General Musharraf`s initial secular posture had ignited a hope that he would fix the extremists who were hell-bent on hijacking Quaid`s Pakistan. His commitment to restore democracy in place of `sham democracy` and reintroduce joint electorate to translate Mr Jinnah`s dream of religious-less politics were music to the ears that had got fed up from hearing venomous sermons from the pulpit. Musharraf assured that the Blasphemy Law would be amended to save the minorities from its abuse. He had to beat a hasty retreat just at the first sign of their street power. His Interior Minister too could not keep his commitment about deweaponisation.
Pakistan has been under enormous pressure from within and outside to act against the jehadis before it got too late. Country`s silent majority has become more vocal over the growing fear of Talibanisation. The growing terrorism has made it clear that the country is threatened with an implosion. As a consequence, there has been a build up of unanimous opinion that the drift needs to be halted with an iron hand. Experts have advised the government to give up its reactive approach. The Americans too have warned Islamabad to wake up and stop flirting with the fundamentalists. Since Pakistan`s bankrupt economy is totally dependent for survival upon life support from the World Bank and IMF, it hardly has an option but to pay some heed to the American word of caution.
Therefore, it seems that the government has finally decided to act. The Interior Minister has taken certain major initiatives to clip the jehadi wings. Notwithstanding the advice of pro-jehadi elements that the government should not open `too many fronts`, it appears to have decided to eradicate the impression that it has no teeth to bite. The Minister`s recent utterances have been very harsh against the jehadi organisations. He seems to be reasserting that the junta has overcome the `divided opinion` within its ranks and is no more willing to be blackmailed by them. It also carries the message home that the policy of appeasement has come to an end.
There are no two views that dealing with sectarian terrorism requires something more than administrative and law and order measures. Terrorists have closed mindsets. The government has to treat the disease rather than kill the patient.
There are so many sects in Islam. The state cannot tell followers of these sects to conform to one or another belief. It could create the right environment for a peaceful and tolerant co-existence by taking effective measures to ensure that religion has nothing to do with the business of the state and, in its eyes, all citizens are equal. There is a need to eliminate the foreign hand that feeds terrorism for its own ends.
The Ministry of Interior has authorised its Crimes Management Cell to register all the sectarian, jehadi organisations and madrasahs and find out the sources of their funding. These organisations have also been warned not to collect donations anywhere. They have been banned from putting up donation collection boxes in the mosques, madrasahs or imambaras. In response, the jehadis have threatened open defiance and warned the administration that they would not take it lying down.
Since the problem is enormous, its various facets need to be investigated. The government should differentiate between good and bad organisations and the madrasahs run by them, and treat them on merit irrespective of the fact that there is a general perception that madrasahs have been serving as cradles for sectarian violence. Moinuddin Haider has come on record that the brands of Islam madrasahs preach were divisive and harmful to Pakistan`s interest.
According to a published report, there were in 1998 at least, 751 schools in Punjab engaged in sectarian training, and 810 graduates of these schools were wanted by the police on charges of violent crimes but were absconding. These are believed to have increased manifold since. The Minister would have to investigate the incidence of violence by the madrasah students.
It has been recognised that the madrasahs have been serving as a parallel system of education for the have-nots. Haider will have to introduce measures to reform them to convert them into real institutions of learning for the deprived communities and would no more allow them to be abused by the jehadis for recruitment as fodder for their guns and bigoted objectives. The Ministry of Interior, in collaboration with the Ministry of Religious Affairs, should also take long-term measures to forge unity in thinking and approach between religious teaching and modern education.
Investigators need to be assigned to find out the links and the extent of collaboration between the jehadi groups, drug mafia and the underworld.
The decision to ban the public display of arms, deweaponisation and an all-out war against jehadi organisations is definitely the need of the hour. Appropriate insturctions have been issued instructions to the provincial governments to enforce these measures with an iron hand. The government must know that in order to establish equilibrium in Pakistani society it must defang various groups. It must also eradicate terrorist strongholds, their hideouts, their arsenals and source of arms supplies.
The Musharraf junta needs to realise that the fear of jehadi takeover has grown larger than life. Some of the pro-jehadi elements in the regime are believed to have warned Musharraf of a backlash. The jehadi organisations, too, have given the government an ultimatum that they will neither have themselves registered nor submit their accounts for scrutiny. London`s Weekly Nation has even expressed its apprehension that the jehadis could resort to assassination to eliminate the man who poses a serious threat to them.
However, the junta must lend its ears to the predominant view that most of the `fundo` setups have been creation of its agencies and their leaders are perhaps still in their pay. As such the fears of a backlash are more quixotic than real. According to liberal elements, the government must strike now to nip the menace in the bud before it spreads its tentacles wide in the society. Successive governments in the past have been appeasing the extremist elements. Instead of firmly dealing with them whenever they resorted to destroying TV cable networks, disrupt musical programmes, or attempted to introduce their brand of Shariah over the writ of the state, the governments chose to buckle under. By now, they have acquired a veto power in the name of Islam on issues such as Afghanistan, Kashmir, joint electorate, Blasphemy Law and even the nature of domestic politics.
Last but not the least, in the new emerging scenario Pakistan is required to adjust and adopt a new policy over Afghanistan and Kashmir. It has to distance itself from the Taliban government to show compliance with the UN sanctions. For lending its support to a wider international effort for the settlement of Kashmir, it has to rein in the jehadi forces that seem to be getting out of control when the West is putting pressure on India to resolve the issue. It seems that Islamabad has already cast the die. It has closed down four offices of militant jehadi groups in Muzzafarabad. The Interior Ministry has also vowed to make militant groups account for huge amounts of public donations collected in the name of Kashmiri refugees. It wants them to first register themselves, subject their donations to official scrutiny and then apply for permission to raise donations by putting up donation boxes in public places.

Dear Aisha:

Welcome back to sunny California. I have a few questions you.

a. Why highly intellectual and high energy people like yourselves are still searching for a meaning of Pakistan? It will evolve like every thing just give its democratic institutions (however corrupt) back. In this context, how would you explain the U.S. constitution / bill of rights and the U.S. Supreme Court at one time upheld slavery, and the same constitution and bill rights outlawed it too. These contradictions can only be explained if you accept evolutionary nature of human societies requires evolutionary changes in interpretations and institutions. Develop these institutions, begin with girls and empower women, you will see changes coming in two generations, your grand children will feel these changes. It is a slow process, Musharraff is misleading the people just as much as people blame Nawaz Shariff

b. Why can Pakistan be accepted as a ground reality and let your / YLH generation make it a better (in evolutionary) way? Would you compare your baby with your neighbor`s and fight for its acceptance or just accept it and don`t care for those neighbors who would not accept your baby. Your baby v Neighbor`s baby is not a zero-sum game. Your love is the differentiator which the neighbor`s baby does not have.

c. Would it not be better for people like yourselves and YLH to eliminate zero-game tendencies from your thinking process, and instead evolve some of your social thoughts into synthesis of political and religious models that Pakistan needs for more important economic development. You and YLH would have atleast one avid reader in me, to read you and YLH on such interesting subject. I promise both of you would be able to develop your thoughts without zero-sum game.

c. Why do you let yourself be dragged into zero-sum game Hindu-Muslim and India-Pakistan?

d. Why do you let yourself indulge into Jinnah-Gandhi zero-sum game? Jinnah would rightly stand on his on feet whether Pakistan and more importantly South Asia timely rediscovers him. He will be rediscovered for the liberal democrat and a genuine leader that he was, and less for his Hindu-Muslim unity. No unity is imposed, its need is felt and only then the unity happens. South Asia will benefit if it can go through Western Europe like process to feeling the need for unity, and needing it too.

Likewise, NON_ONION eating Gandhi, whether you like it or not has stood on his own feet and will continue to stand on his feet. Even BJP leaders who after gaining the power realized on their trip to the western capital how important and relevant Gandhi is, they quitely distanced themselves from the killers of Gandhi in their own party and embraced Gandhi at least while in the West. Like it or not Gandhi did become acknowledged inspiration for people like Martin Luther King etc. It is unfortunate that Jinnah had been buried in this zero-sum game nonsense. You know what the video rental place near my home in Saratoga, CA is run by a very nice Pakistani family, I several times over the last one year, went there to rent Jinnah movie, each time I have been told that there is no video yet. It is also unfortunate that Musharraff fires from the ambassodorship to the U.K., the person who made it a personal mission to deliver Jinnah message. Non of this has anything to with India-Pakistan, Hindu-Muslim and Gandhi-Jinnah zero sum game.

e. Don`t you think the loosers in Pakistani leadership go for Jinnah-Gandhi zero sum game to justify their parasitic existance?

There are far too many important qualities that both had than to wastefully compare Jinnah`s leadership and his liberal democratic value system with Gandhi`s NON_ONION eating habit; or for that matter Jinnah`s alchol consumption and pork eating with Gandhi`s virtuous use of non-violence as a weapon. It is foolish, it childish and completely misses the mark.

f. Why cannot we just accept that they both played their parts extremely well given the hands they were dealt with and the life and time they lived?

Let us not measure them with the present generation`s yardstick. It is my humble opinion that if they were given the freer hands and could have exercised greater control, the South Asia would have been far better off, today. And like it or not TNT would never have happened, by this I NEVER imply that Muslims would have lost power, it is a subject in itself.

TNT was a master counter move by Jinnah. Unfortunately, he did not realize that another liberal democrat, Nehru would force the move to Nehru`s advanatge. Sometimes, I wonder if Nehru did not have the ambition to be the Prime Minister what would have happened to TNT, and if he had given Gandhi a free hand to offer in all sincerity to Jinnah, then what would have happened to South Asia.

ANIL KAPURIA

harimau #43, ``Must have been reading The Life of Prophet Muhammed.``

Oh wow, you Indians are a tolerant lot aren`t you?

I tell you about a perverted Indian in California, and you go on to blast my religion.

Very impressive, keep it up. I hope Humsab read your post.

Rsuxena #47,

Please get your hands out of your pants, and read carefully:

an excerpt from Humsab`s post:

``(Our Saxena, Jay, Sadna, McGupta etc.

never get on this high horse of explaining how great their books are and how others are dirt.)

My post was about his assertion that you guys (you especially) ``never get on the high horse and