The Meaning of Pakistan

YLH 58,

It is time that you learned something about yourself. You have always talked about fundoocide, you want to eliminate people with views different from yours. This is essentially jihadic thinking, elininate the ones with different world views, the mindset of the ones in the hills of kargill, the same mindset in the corridors of Rudgers.

Instead of cramming your mind with the words of the dead, look around and learn for yourself. Pakistan is a product of darwinian natural selection, the muslims who believed in TNT went accross to create todays pakistan, the muslims who lived there in what is pakistan accepted it because they had no choice. I know some muslims in kerala who went all the way to create the pakistan. So your idea of a secular pakistan is a jinnaic fantacy at best, or an act of stuffing words into a dead man`s mouth. Pakistan has to be an islamic republic, darwin demands it.

Now look at the evolution of pakistan, all of the blasphemy laws were added later, so are the honour killing, now the riba and the sheria apex courts. LYH, your country is progressing. All that you have to do is to facilitate the acceleration along this path. You have to interpret like some your US based friends are doing, jihaad is a human rights issue, killing the kafirs of kashmir is justified as a low cost military strategy so that resources are diverted to road building, reasearch jinn energy and islamic science at rudgers, join the social investigation into macho culture and its corollary of honour killing. Please, pleeaase, dont slow the progress of pakistan, as an evolutionist, I view pakistan as a neanderthal, awaiting its own oblivion after giving way to its iraquisation.

regards and best of a good night

jay

Ras Siddiqi 89,

Thanks for the positive post about pakistan.

Sarwari 81,

Best identity pakistan can have is a no identity, that is if you dont like the muslim one. A good example of a NO identity country is australia, just good for nothing yobos trying to create an identity by pouring money into sports. May be pakistan can be combination of jihadists, weapon makers and a whole lot of beggers.

At a personal level, wish you all the best in your noble endeavour of helping fellow pakistanis.

regards and best wishes.

jay

Ali1, Urstruly and all other Pakistanians who make fun of dung eating Hindus......

from interview with JI leader #114....

``This sheik comes from a Bedouin family of southwestern Arabia. He had the habit of drinking camel urine and camel milk early in the morning. I asked him why does he do that? He replied that it is the family tradition as well as Islamic practice that is supported by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). I was astounded. But Qazi explained to me that it is true. He told me three or four Hadiths in which the camel urine and camel milk drinking is suggested.``

Oh dear......

ha ha ha

Karakoram#118:

You raise some interesting points.

re: conversion.

I am sure that you will be able to view the beliefs of the hardline Hindu groups in the light of thousands of years of Indian society being a repository and generator of new religious thought and movements, from Zorastrianism to Sufism, and from Mahavira to Guru Nanak. In light of the historical accomodation to new modes of religious thinking, social movements inspired by external religious philosophy, and internal reformist movements, religious conversion has been a reality of Indian, and Hindu society since time immemorial. In light of this, I have no doubt that you can see that the irrationality of the opinions of ``hardline Hindu organisations`` are an aberration from this tolerant and syncrestic tradition, and are not a true representation of Hindu thought.

If I could link this to your earlier point about your own subjective belief in the innate moral superiority of Islam over Hinduism. It is my belief, though please correct me if I am wrong, that apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. If that is not the case, please do not hesitate to inform me.

Hence,I could make a subjective statement about my belief in the basic thoughts and tenets of my own {ostensible :-) } religion, Sikhism, being ``better than`` Islam. But my religion also forbids me from doing this, as it repudiates the ascendancy of any religion over another, and warns that it leads to self-righteousness, intolerance, and lack of understanding of others. But that is by the by. My main point is that as a (lapsed) Sikh, my ancestors at some point changed their formal religion from Hinduism to the path of the Guru. As such, it just shows how Hinduism has accomodated, been reformed by, and lived with the reality of shifting religious sands, even to the extent of giving birth to a new nation (the Khalsa Sikhs) from within. Could you compare this and demonstrate any similar movements or history within the aegis of Pakistan or the Islamic faith? I am a living breathing example of Vedic thought and the reality of the acceptance of religious conversion in Indian society.

Once again, I am sure that you will be able to contextualise the hardline Hindu organisations rhetoric and intolerant actions from this perspective. Religion, and new religious thought, has always played a primary role in Indian society, and will continue to do so, both in terms of social movements and individual spirituality. I hope that religious tolerance is preserved and I am sure you will endorse my hopes for this. The virulence and hatred of the VHP and their kin is frightening and must be countered at every possible turn. I join hands with you in this struggle, and I thank you for your concern.... it shows you care for India.

Further, in light of this, I look forward to Christian, Sikh, Buddhist and Hindu missionaries being welcomed with equanimity and the same standard of tolerance you and I demand for all religions and prosletysers (sp?) in India in your own country, to help in the upliftment of certain downtrodden sections of Pakistani society.

Once again, thanks for raising these important points.

regards

Harpreet

Ref sarwari #: 81

[Harimau:

Mere muu naa laag!

You don`t want me to start with Hindu beliefs and Bhoopal?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to rsexana so he can show you what a genius you are. PS: don`t eat onions ;)]

Oooh, I am already quaking in my shoes.

Harimau:

Please stop using the phrase ``Islamic pigs``....I am asking you to please calm down....

krashid urf Urstruly,
I didnot post #112, I donot post under Mohajir. I have no idea about the authenticity of #112, Eklavya already pointed out much earlier that its from a fundo site. This doesnot mean it is is necessarily not authentic, but who cares.

You and your compatriots are doing a great job on chowk that I at least have become a hardline opponent where Pakistanis are concerned. So no doubt you will get a bonus this year. Keep your dirty marauding hordes out of my country.

Sadhana

I second Harpreet 136.

I request all animal lovers - lovers of pigs, cows, camels, dogs both male and female, dung, manure, urine - to please desist from insulting those animals by associating them with either Hinduism or Islam. Reading some of our posts here, those animals have a right to be upset.

I personally don`t feel offended when people on either side let off steam by using locker-room language. But there are other - better - people here who deserver respect.

sadhna 137

:-)

Ghussa mat hoiye. Yeh sab to yahan hota hi hai.

In response to Eklavya (Reply # 138)

Your statement: “I personally don`t feel offended when people on either side let off steam by using locker-room language. But there are other - better - people here who deserve [sic] respect.”

My reply: It concerns me when some members of my cyber-community unintendedly fail to realize the adverse/ugly consequences of their rhetoric, their thoughts, and their actions.

A person is not educated who lacks a sense of time and place and who intendedly hurts others. Some posts on the Chowk persistently reinforce my view that my generation has failed to impart much needed education to our youth.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE PM # 129

[``and how religious minorities such as myself (pointing this out take the `statistic` out of them) will not be enjoined to follow this way ...``]

Religious minorities are not enjoined to follow anything PM saab, so don`t worry on this count.

However, men who openly practice and advertize their homosexuality such as yourself can be burnt to death in a theocratic state. Even in a secular state, for example Georgia USA where you claim you are living right now, you can have severe legal consequences; So be careful not to discuss your depravations with a law enforcement official.

PM,

Pakistan has to be completely secular in order to fulfil and justify its existence. It has to be secular in the sense that all people be allowed to live according to their beliefs cultural, religious or otherwise. There shall be no imposition of Islamic Law or Sharia in Pakistan.

Why was Pakistan made is an interesting debate, a very confusing one at it. No Pakistan`s foundation is not ``La illah illallah Muhammad ur Rasool Allah``. Ms Sarwari is absolutely wrong in stating that.Indeed, Pakistan was to serve as a ``National State`` for Muslims of South Asia. It is also the

``National Homeland`` for the Non Muslims in the Geographic Boundaries of Pakistan. Pakistan also is the rebellion against the ``one-center`` South Asian State which would have at best tried to assimilate its citizens.

Pakistan can no doubt be the paragon of the Muslim World, and a testament of the courage of Muslim Nation, while also maintaining equal rights for all citizens of Pakistan regardless of religion caste or creed.

My ideal for Pakistan is a Modern Social-Welfare state, which is undoubtedly home to an overwhelmingly Muslim Population but as Non Muslims amongst its citizens also. Like Anil said,

arguing Pakistan`s raison de ettre is a zero-sum game.

Our Ideals should be the following in Pakistan the state ...

1) Equality

2) Democracy

3) Social Justice

All human beings are born equal and thus are entitled to be treated fairly and Justly by the state they live in, be they christian, hindu or Muslim.

Our ideal is simple....

``You are free- You are free to go to your temples.

You are free to go to your mosques, or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state``.

sadhna #137, ``Keep your dirty marauding hordes out of my country.``

Whoaaa! :)

I knew there was another side to you.

aaj pata chala sadna bibi ko bhi gussa ata hai.

Forget all this stuff on ONE OF THE GREATEST DAYS IN THE HISTORY OF INDIAN CRICKET!

Lets celebrate while we can. I am sure Aussies will whip us again in the third match :)

Re: Krashid

Latest news:

``This sheik comes from a Bedouin family of southwestern Arabia. He had the habit of drinking camel urine and camel milk early in the morning.``

Is your camel lactating right now?

If proselytization is a one-way movement only, then I`m against it.

For instance, if conversion from Hinduism to Christianity is legitimate, then conversion from Christianity to Hinduism should also be legitimate. But few people treat such as legitimate.

E.g., if you go to www.state.gov, and drill down to find the reports on religious freedom in various countries. Looking at India, you will find that in some states (Orissa, W. Bengal) etc., religious conversion has to be registered with the police so that they can investigate whether any coercion was used.

Now, in W. Bengal, some converts to Christianity converted back to Hinduism. The comment in the US report about that is : ``The Marxist government was unable to prevent the reconversion back to Hinduism.``

Now, if coercion had been used, the Marxist govt. of Bengal would have been able to prevent the coercion; therefore coercion must not have been used. (The Marxist party in Bengal has had no trouble in killing Hindu opponents; it is openly discussed in the newspapers.)

The complaint is thus that conversion from Christianity to Hinduism is an anti-Christian, anti-minority act.

But then conversion from Hinduism to Christianity is an anti-Hindu, anti-majority act, and should be condemned as such.

You ask : why is a US report relevant ? and the answer is that for proselytization to Christianity, most of the money and missionaries come from the US.

My personal view is that just as the US bans foreigners from giving money for political purposes in the US, likewise, India should ban all foreign money for religious purposes within India. This no more stifles anyone`s religious rights than US`s ban stifles anyone`s political rights (freedom of speech, freedom of association).

Proselytization by Indian Christians and Indian Muslims should be protected as a fundamental right of religious freedom of Indians; and the same should hold for Hindus as well. In general Hindus are willing to accept converts, but do not go out seeking them except in self-defence, so fear of the majority need not be there.

-Arun the Infidelator