The Meaning of Pakistan

Re: ROmairr #150

During Partition, more Muslims from North India migrated to Pakistan than did from South India. As one might expect, only the upper- and middle-class were able to afford the migration. The ones that were left behind were the poor who could not afford relocation. Therefore, the Muslims of North India are generally poorer than the average, since the one- or two-generations that have elaspsed since Partition is not a long enough period to greatly change their economic status. This, however, is not the case in South India. There, the Muslims are at the same socio-economic level of development as the rest of the population.

Other Indian Muslim/Urdu web sites (including news sites):

http://www.islamicvoice.com/index.htm

http://www.lashkar.com/

http://www.siasat.com/

http://www.inquilab.com/

Romair #150

Let’s be honest yaar. The real question is would a pakistani ever admit that an indian muslim is well off in india? Surely you recognize that a pakistani has a huge psychological incentive to never admit that an indian muslim is secure in india b/c the moment she/he does, it begs the question, “well, why did muslims need a separate state?” and similarly, we on the other side have an incentive to talk down anything that would suggest anything but communal harmony. So what to do? I think the only thing you can do is look at all the anecdotal evidence. And in looking we see that india has muslims as well as other religious minorities in all levels of society from government, business, academia, to the arts. I think your implication that a lack of indian muslims in the indian software industry (is this true?) is a result of discrimination by hindus is faulty in its logic. There simply isn’t enough (or any) evidence to make that assumption. Ironically, as most people here know, the biggest indian software company, wipro, is headed by azim premji. But I think the more telling evidence is this simple fact. The world including india is moving more toward a market economy with free competition and the one thing I can say from first hand experience is that if an indian thinks you can make him money, he’ll hire you no matter what your religion is.

ylh #142

Yasser,

I’m not trying to start another creation of pakistan discussion (I have nothing new to add) but don’t you see the contradiction in what you say? In what jinnah said? In pakistan, a person’s religion IS the business of the state. For what other reason then religion was the state? Why did so many non-muslims leave? I’m really not saying this to antagonize you and I think most people here are familiar with the history, but every time you try to make these arguments, these questions will constantly rear their head. I think I read you saying somewhere that had jinnah accepted a deal for a united india (the cabinet mission?) that would have been okay with you, but now that pakistan is here, you want to keep it that way. If you said that, I can understand it.

The real question I have is why do you believe in social welfare states? I think socialism, even in milder forms such as what democrats in the US advocate is highly destructive. India alone should be proof enough socialism impoverishes a nation. the idea that government should run industry, regulate everything, and provide welfare for its citizens cripples societies. Not only are socialist governments grossly inefficient, but they have to take away all the citizens’ rights from free speech to the right to property in order to maintain the socialist state. Government is a monopoly. They have no incentive to be efficient b/c there is no competition. This is why the private sector and markets are far more efficient.

Romair # 150

I read the article you referred to http://www.thefridaytimes.com/myweek.htm. I think its very balanced and quite fair. You wanted to know what its like being a muslim in India. Each muslim in India has his own opinion and experience. Mine has been very good. Life for muslims is no different than its for any other Indian. The author of that article Taimur Bandey has put it very well. India offers you the opportunity to grow and prosper if you work hard.

You mentioned that you have not met any Indian Muslim software engineer in the US, that is surprising I meet so many all the time. As for the stats, I am not aware of how many Indian muslim software engineers are there in the US.

The newspaper www.milligazette.com etc. are grip board’s. They do not reflect the opinion of all Indian muslims. It would be wrong to form your opinion on that genre of newspapers.

The current economic progress has not left the poor out. India reduced its population under the poverty line from 36% to 26% since 1995. As far as the lot of the Indian muslims that are poor is concerned, its not so bad. They are predominantly carpet weavers, tailors, handymen, brass workers, artisans and laborers, their incomes are rising along with everyone else.



Regards,

Faruk

Concerned # 152

The strata of muslim society that the author is talking about are poor, illiterate and used. They are no different than the poor of other faiths. They have been used by muslim politicians as cannon fodder in their political machinations. The same way Laloo Yadav uses backward classes. They live in a dream that had they moved to Pakistan they would be living in the Kothies of Karachi not the slums there. They are not aware of the plight of Mohajirs in Pakistan. You would be surprised at their ignorance. If there is anyone to blame, it’s the muslim leadership that has used them as a vote bank and never done a thing for them.

As far as the growing trend of marriages between muslims and hindus. In my father’s generation people had a problem with sunni – shia marriages and inter caste marriages among hindus. No one mentions that now, so the old lady will come around it’s a trend that is here to stay.

Faruk.

In response to concerned (Reply # 153)
Dear Concerned:

There is a general feeling among the Pakistanis that they are much better off than the Indian Muslims. They also seem to believe that they would have suffered like the Indian Muslims had Jinnah not fought for the creation of Pakistan.

Since 1981, I have been living in a University town (30,000+ students). We get no less than 100 fresh Indian students each year. But, the Indian Muslims student virtually never come to my University. Why? Is it because the Indian Muslims don`t like my University, whereas the Hindus and the Sikhs do? Is it because the Indian Muslims are not interested in getting higher education? Is it because the Indian Muslims are not competitive enough? Is it because they are paying the price for the creation of Pakistan? Or, what? Could you please explain?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Dear Faruk, my sincere thanks to you. Your posts resuscitate the faith in Indian system, good to know your view as an Indian Muslim. The poors in India do not have any religion and there are 600 millions of them, if 140 millions are muslim, then there are atleast 460 miliion poor hindus. Just a number to ponder.

Regards

Thanks for the replies. It is refreshing to see some objective analysis, instead of the regular mud-slinging. One would have to assume that the author has some biases, since he is visiting from Pakistan. That is why I requested input from Indians, i.e. to figure out the extent of the biases.

concerned: ``the poor and the rich muslims are pretty much the same in both india and pakistan. so what makes you wish that `... indian muslims may actually, at some stage, enjoy the same or higher living standards that Pakistani Muslims enjoy...``

There are rich and poor in all countries, that is true. I have reached my conclusion on the comparative living standards of the Indian and Pakistani Muslims, based on the UNDP report: India has traditionally been behind Pakistan on this report. India has however now jumped a few notches ahead. The per capita income of a Pakistani has (had) been higher than that of an Indian for a long time. This per-capita income is greatly augmented by a large underground economy. This large underground undocumented economy in Pakistan (probably proportionally higher than that in India), based on drugs, which pumps in a lot of money into the Pakistani economy, also. This does not show up in the macro-economic number of Pakistan (which are now quite weak), but it does show up in the bank accounts of the Pakistanis. If we assume that the average Pakistani now is as wealthy as the average Indian, and that the average Muslim Indian has a lower living standard than the average Hindu Indian, then the living standard of the average Indian Muslim would be lower than that of the average Pakistani Muslim. This is true even at this stage when Pakistan is at its lowest economic point since the fifties. I would be more than happy, if someone could prove my logic to be incorrect.

Eklavya #154: ``Also, it is not only in the IT sector that muslims lag behind. They are behind in almost every sector you can think of - administration, medicine, literature - you name it.``

This is what my feeling has been also. However, since I have never been to India, I cannot be certain if it is correct.

arun gupta # 156: ``how do you get that factor of three``

I used this figuratively, implying all things equal, the number of Indian Muslims should be much higher than Pakistani Muslims.

``Also, how do you know what the H-1B acceptance rate is for Indian Hindus versus Muslims ?...What we really need is some detailed stats. about education, and not anecdotes.``

You are correct, we need a more scientific analysis. I think I can speak with some authority on the number of Indian Muslims in the US IT industry in comparison with Indian Hindus. I must have run across, in some work related capacity or the other, around 300 (probably a lot more) Indians in the US IT industry. I have seen, read about, heard of etc. many more than that. I have probably come across the resumes of Indian IT professionals in the US, in the hundreds This is because Indians completely dominate the Silicon Valley software engineering side, at the moment. Statistically speaking, this is quite a big pool. Out of these, I would have to say, the number of Muslim Indians I have run across has to be around 5%, if that.

Following are the official INS figures for the first portion of last year for H-1B visas approved specifically for IT:

Total H1Bs Approved

India 7,619, China 3,438, Philippines 960, Canada 864, Pakistan 814

India consumes around 65% of the total H-1B visas offered by the USA. Pakistan, perhaps to a surprise of many, is number five on the list of countries sending IT professionals to the USA (since Canada has special visas, Pakistan is actually fourth). For every Pakistani IT person coming to the USA, there are 9.4 Indians. Even if we assume that 10% of the IT people coming to the USA from India are Muslims (my own experience is that it would be half that amount, at most), that would still put their figure equal to the Pakistanis. Considering the fact that India is 10 years or so ahead of Pakistan IT, and has a much higher rate of education, etc., the numbers of Indian Muslims should be much higher than the number of Pakistani Muslims. Also, the IT revolution is just hitting Pakistan, so within a few years, the ratio between India and Pakistan could reduce to 1:5, instead of 1:9.3. Specifically to India, the number of Muslims coming to India should be proportionally close to their population representation in India, which it definitely isn`t.

This is a partially scientific analysis, perhaps not completely accurate, but I think it does project the correct picture.

harish3 #166: ``The real question is would a pakistani ever admit that an indian muslim is well off in india?``

In a sense you are correct, but in a sense perhaps you aren`t. I think, at a govt. level, no one will ever admit that a Pakistani Muslim is worse off than an Indian Muslim. However, at the individual level, Pakistanis are very cynical. You must have noticed that on Chowk. They are extremely quick and perhaps eager to criticize anything Pakistani. Perhaps this is a sign of self-confidence, or perhaps a sign of under-confidence. If one were to read the Pakistani press, and even Chowk, one would get the impression that Pakistan is about to fall into the Arabian Sea. However, in reality, the average Pakistani is as well off as any third world person. So, on the contrary, the average Pakistani, in many cases goes out of his/her way to point out that everyone outside Pakistan (including people in India) are better off than Pakistanis.

Faruk #163: ``They are not aware of the plight of Mohajirs in Pakistan.``

There seems to be a huge misconception that Mohajirs in Pakistan are at the lower wrung of the Pakistani society. The actual situation is exactly the opposite. The Muhajir community in Pakistan is the richest community in Pakistan. It is also, by a huge margin, the most educated. It is also, by a huge margin, the most urbanised, almost completely in Karachi, Hyderabad, Islamabad and Lahore. In proportion to its population, it has produced the most heads of industry, Army Generals (the three senior most generals in the Pakistani Army right now are from Karachi), beaurecrats, etc. etc. In fact, it has been so successful, that Sind is the only province in Pakistan where discriminatory laws have been put in to limit the number of urbanites (Muhajirs) in the beaurecracy. Karachi, by far, sends the most Pakistani IT professionals to the USA (perhaps more than the rest of Pakistan combined). 80% of the IT companies in Pakistan are in Karachi (though surprisingly 85% of the IT exports come from Lahore, due to the presence of four major companies there).

This of course, does not mean that due to its smaller size, it has not been discriminated against. However, now it also has the third most powerful political party in Pakistan also.

The reason the Muhajir community has been so successful, despite the lack of political influence and some discrimination from other ethnic groups, is because it was the only educated group in Pakistan, at the time of partition. At the expense of sounding like a racist, I think it is still the only educated group in Pakistan. Pakistan, apart from Lahore, was baren feudal land at the time of partition, and the only group with education, business knowlegde etc. were the indivduals that migrated from the much more urban and educated India.

Once again, I appreciate the objective comments. My aim is more to compare how the Muslim Indians are doing in comparison with Hindu Indians, and not really how they are doing in comparison to Pakistani Muslims.

ahmadb #168

``Since 1981, I have been living in a University town (30,000+ students). We get no less than 100 fresh Indian students each year. But, the Indian Muslims student virtually never come to my University. Why? Is it because the Indian Muslims don`t like my University, whereas the Hindus and the Sikhs do? Is it because the Indian Muslims are not interested in getting higher education? Is it because the Indian Muslims are not competitive enough? Is it because they are paying the price for the creation of Pakistan? Or, what? Could you please explain?``

Bilal, I have had the same question for sometime. Based on my experience, there are very few Muslim students in the reputed engineering and management colleges in India. I used to be surprised that the post grad college I studied at had no muslim student in my batch. Other minorities like Christians / Sikhs etc were well represented, given their size as percentage of population. Was it discrimination? I cannot believe that the selection procedure is biased at every college as most colleges have written tests where the student`s id is anonymous. Even if the student`s name is there, there would have to be a large bunch of biased evaluators to result in the near absence of muslims in higher education. At best, bias could be at the interview stage, where there is a face-to-face interaction, but cannot fully explain the near blanking out.

Could the under representation be due to attitudes toward education? Lack of opportunities? Should the comparison be between muslims and hindus or between classes? BTW, there is minimal representation of so-called lower castes in these colleges too, if you discount the reservation.

Is it that the average muslim in India pursues vocations that are not education oriented? In some cities, certain jobs/industries are almost completely muslim - like textiles, footwear, leather industry etc.

How much of the lack of representation is due to Urdu education and shying away from English?

I think this is a fit topic for discussion.

As a Hindu in Hindu-majority India and never being subjected to discrimination, I have not till recently considered that Muslims and other religionists may have a different identity due to being a minority. But if I put myself in the shoes of a muslim, I cannot even begin to realise how scary the statements of Bal Thackeray, VHP etc must seem - statements that the majority Hindu could dismiss as merely idiotic, electoral tactics etc. The Constitution may guarantee fundamental rights and equality to all irrespective of religion, but I think it is somewhat difficult to be a Muslim in India and lead a life integrated with the mainstream, without facing discrimination due to religion. At least in some parts of India.

This does not seem to be true of other minorities like Christians - in fact, they are more than adequately represented in colleges, white collar jobs etc.

I have a small instance to narrate

I grew up as a Air force officers kid and studied in different schools across India. We always had muslims in our class and they were friends like everybody else. nobody cared about the religion.

In class X we had a Muslim Air force officer`s daughter called Zeba Ahmed. Now the Air force officers/community are considered very progressive who have no gender biases.

On completing class X we have to choose Arts, Science or Commerce streams for class XI, XII. Now we all wanted Zeba to take Science in class XI as she had got good marks in Class X and she was quite attractive!!

However, when the school reopened after summer vacations , there was no Zeba!! her father had married her to somebody in the Middleeast. Now we all were stunned to hear that.



This instance is symptomatic of what ails the Muslims in India. There is not sufficient stress on education in general and education for girls in particular. Even during the british rule , the Muslims lagged behind in education as compared to other religious groups. Lot of this blame is also due to the Muslim clergy who have somehow equated modern education with decadence and immorality.

Nobody can imagine girls of educated and economically well off parents being married after class X in India. Muslims feel like sticking to traditional occupations/ crafts and not taking to modern education. Why dont the Muslim intellectuals talk about education, health. They are always harping of personal laws, divorce etc etc and not addressing the real issues. So rather than blaming Hindus for their low levels of education it is time that Muslims took to modern education. Why dont we see native engineers / doctors in middle east? While there could be hundreds of mosques / madressahs in the Muslim world how many good universities exist in the Islamic world??

However, there are quite a few Muslims ( boys/girls) in the software company I work for here in India.

Romair #150:

``In India, the Muslim minority is a huge minority. Apparently, it seems like the current economic progress in India is actually increasing the divide between this minority and the Hindu majority. A situtation like, Pakistan in the 60s, seems to be devloping in India, i.e country was progressing quite well, however East Pakistan was left out of the progress, thereby increasing the social divide, which eventually resulted in the breaking up of the country. In essence, the economic progress, due to its one-sidedness, actually assisted in the breakup of the country. Is India headed along similar lines?``

Romair - I am not sure if the economic divide between Hindus/Muslims is increasing; I hope not. But I don`t think that factor alone will lead to a breakup of India. Not again. The reason is that Muslims today are well spread out all over India. There is no single contiguous piece of land that all Muslims could carve out... except for Kashmir which issue is restricted to KASHMIRI muslims only and out of bounds for other Indian Muslims...

In 1947 and 1971 there were clear chunks of land that could secede - not so in today`s India - at least not based on religion.

However, my own prognosis is that the India that has been there for the last 50 years cannot continue to be in the same way for long. I am not being un-patriotic, but I am not sure if the current way is the most efficient way of governing a BILLION people. The very number is unmanageable, people are more aware and assertive of their rights, which means benifits of development have to reach everybody.

If India is to survive and be an equitable place, the coming years and decades should see power shift from the current castes and classes and regions (the Hindi belt, for eg) and move to an expanded base that is inclusive of all castes, classes, regions, religions etc.

The best possible solution would be where India continues to be one nation, due to a shared identity and the obvious economic / political advantages of being big; but where there is more power to the states and local bodies; kind of semi autonomous or like the EU.

If that comes about, Pakistani provinces can put in their applications to join the Union :-) :-)

Dear Bilal:

You raise a good question, I am sure there will be lot of Indians who will love to reply you, I add just my personal observation, no statistics. Muslims in India are doing quite well in some areas, take for example film, music and arts. I can`t finish counting names who really made their marks in these areas. I always try to watch the production team of any serial or program that is shown in any Indian TV, eg, ZEE TV. You will see about 20-25% muslim names. For example, BR Chopra`s big hit TV serial Mahabharat had a main script writer who was Muslim. Why they do not come for higher education equal proportion, I really do not know, since in my batchelor engineering class, there were about 5% muslim. But none of them came to US when I went there, although one of them was very good, he rather settled down with a job in IOC in Delhi (Indian Oil Corporation). Shammi, Shadhana, any thougt..?

Aisha,

Aisha.

meaning of pakistan.

Pakistan is a country where the people welcomed the overthrow of an elected govt by the military. There are educated pakistanis on chowk who argue that military is the best to do everything, allegedly many are P.hds and masters degree holders allegedly trained for this purpose. this could give a clue to the meaning of pakistan, a land of ....

the following is from another of this type, who wants the generals to head the IT industries, from dawn

Speedy development of IT

AN IT task force to provide guidelines for e-government has been set by the government. According to Alvi Abdul Raheem, chairman, Information Technology Task Force the project would be completed in two years` time and another four years would be required to streamline the project and remove faults.

Having read this piece of news in Dawn (March 6), I immediately recalled the words of an eminent name in IT, Mr Nisar Memon, former country manager IBM and currently president `Reformers`. He holds the opinion, ``I think war effort is needed in the field of IT and right now this can be done very easily under Army`s surveillance. Relaxation time is over. Now, instead of two or three years, we will have to complete this work in months and days or else we`ll lag far behind the rest of the world.``



We are running really short of time and it should be kept in mind that like other resources time is also not interminable.

ANBAR SAJID

Karachi

DOES MUSHARRAF WANT A WAR WITH INDIA?

WHO RULES PAKISTAN ANYWAY? -- THAT CONVICTED CRIMINAL AZHAR OF JAISHE MOHAMMAD? -- OR THAT SELF-APPOINTED ``PRESIDENT`` OF PAKISTAN -- MUSHARRAF OF PAKISTAN ARMY?

40 PEOPLE ARE DEAD MOSTLY MUSLIMS -- IN KASHMIR.

WHAT A LAWLESS COUNTRY -- APARENTLY NOBODY IS INCHARGE OF THAT GOD FORSAKEN COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN -- THE MURDEROUS JIHADIS ARE RUNNING THE COUNTRY -- INSIDE OUT.

``FIGHTING TERRORISM`` WITH USA IN AFGHANISTAN!!

MUSHARRAF IS THE BIGGEST FORK-TONGUED LIAR THAT EVER CAME TO POWER IN PAKISTAN.PERIOD.

IF MUSHARRAF AND HIS ARMY CANNOT CONTROL THESE LASHKARIYAS -- THE BUD-HARKATIYAS AND THE JAISHIS CRIMINALS -- THEN HE BETTER GET READY FOR A WAR WITH INDIA.

IT`S COMING.

Check out this article

Muslim Identity in India

Ramesh N. Rao

various posters,

Had it not been for Pakistan and my parents families moving West during the partition, I wouldn`t have had the same opportunities or confidence that I have now.

In post partition Pakistan, my parents developed their identity, self esteem, and confidence, passing it on to their children. Patriotism is an elixer for success, if used correctly.

We underestimate the power of self esteem for progression.

It would be an interesting study comparing the attitudes and personalities of Indian Muslims vs. Pakistani Muslims.