The Meaning of Pakistan

sac #26

I suspect Israel, the other state created on basis of the common religious identity of its founders faces the same contradictions. There are apparently similarly diverse viewpoints regarding the placeo f religion in public affairs. Apparently some groups want to make the Bible the Constitution and supervene religious authority over constitutional authority and many others want the state to remain strictly secular. And there are many-in-the-middle who want a `egalitarian state` but also feel that a Jewish identity is an inseparable part of the state, being the reason it came into existence. They, too seem to have a history of declaring who meets the defination of a Jew and who doesnot and have/had mandatory religious identifiers on their passports.

It may be a useful object lesson for those still in academia to gain some authoratative academic background on this interesting subject of `religious states`.

Sadhana

Was that contradictory or did I miss something. “if the symbols have ceased to remind us of our mission and have become sacred hollow straws, they ought to be blown away” but why if the mission was to “jointly create a good country, with the flags of faith, unity and discipline.” Why shouldn’t we rejuvenate them or is there nothing to rejuvenate? As long as there are people like you and ylh and countless others on this board believing in the possibility of establishing a ‘real ideal’ those symbols are relevant. Pakistan as it is today is not an ‘ideal establishment’ (er, to put it mildly)– continually drifting farther and farther away from its ‘mission’. I’m not a pessimist so I shall continue to insist that there is always hope. But for as many people living there, believing in its future, participating in its future, there are many if not more desperate to escape.

In the pinkest of health (thanks)

-P

Dear Aisha:

#81

The store is called Desi Emporium. It is in the same market place with Halal Meat, and has comon owners. The owner did say that I could go to PSA`s showing at San Jose State. I am probably your Dad`s age, and it is not my intention to cloud other`s vision. I hope you do not find my answers antagonistic. I live in Parker Ranch. My one daughter goes to Columbia University, while the other is at Menlo School at Atherton.

Thank you

ANIL

Haramiu # various

You seem to be a master of religous history with special emphasis on pre-pubescent girls so I thought I would ask you: Is it true that a pre-pubescent Sita slept with the monkey Hanuma (with Rama`s full permission) as a reward for his (its) efforts in her rescue? And that her vaginal and rectal orifices were enjoined as a result of this one night stand?

Re: soda bottle (spout)

My, my, my...touched a little nerve there haven`t we? Calm down, take a deep breathe, and consider a laser vision correction procedure.

Re: sarwari

I seem to have gotten under your hijab. Keep it up. You`re easy bait to smack around.

re:Zahra - Tadbeer/Taqdeer

Thankyou

From the Pakistani Press

A Personal View

This too is Pakistan

By Inayatullah

The vehicle I was driving last week near Shadman in Lahore suddenly broke down. While the engine kept running it stopped moving. I got down and started pushing it to the side of a service lane. It was 8 pm and I was wondering what to do and where to go for help. Suddenly a car coming from the opposite direction stopped. Out came three young men. ``Uncle, what is wrong? Can we help?`` said one of them. I was surprised. Before I could explain, they were looking to see what they could do to put things right. After a quick examination I was told the cable linking the accelerator with the engine was broken. ``Please wait here,`` I was told, ``we will be back with a mechanic.`` Twenty minutes later, they surely were back with a mechanic and a new cable. ``This cable cost Rs 90 and please pay the mechanic Rs 100 when he has fixed it,`` I was advised. Before I could begin to thank them, they were wishing me good luck and off they went wherever they were headed to.! The mechanic, I learnt later was brought from Warris Road. He had done his day`s job and was leaving for home but was persuaded to accompany my young benefactors. I wouldn`t quite believe that all this was happening to me here in Pakistan.

Yes this too was Pakistan and I thought of many a Pakistani who are busy on their own, doing things -- providing relief and joy to their fellow human beings. I thought of Maulana Edhi, Imran Khan, the late Akhtar Hameed Khan and many other thousands of Pakistani volunteers and donors who run schools, colleges, orphanages, hospitals, free dispensaries and work for the welfare and support of the deprived and disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Young, venturesome Peerzadas too came to my mind who literally produce rabbits out of their bare hands by organising international puppet festival year after year. These days they are putting up a World Music extravaganza. Imagine all this, here, in this country accused constantly of fundamentalism, extremism and cavalierly dubbed as a failed society. So much that celebrates the spirit happening here. Last month we had Basant. The government called it ``Jashan-e-Baharan.`` It was a people`s festival. There was a j! oy in the air. Lahorites were in their elements.

I thought of a single civil servant who given the opportunity, was literally changing the face of Lahore. We keep running down the government servants -- cynically we call them bureaucratic and heap condemnation on them (not that there are no black sheep). I don`t want to mention names but I can recall scores of them who not only performed very well but who went beyond the call of duty to serve the people and the county. There was one who transformed Kachi Abadis in parts of Sindh and successfully pursued schemes setting up comfortable homes for the homeless. There was a Chairman of a development authority in Lahore who without an increase in the budget was able to set up ten childrens` parks mostly in the poorer sections of the city of Lahore within six months. I thought of dedicated officers who back in the late forties and fifties rose to the occasion and were able to settle millions of refugees from across the border on the basis of a scientifi! cally worked out allotment system (some corruption was there but it pales into insignificance compared to the tremendous work done). I thought of a military governor who hands-on, set up excellent parks, libraries and cultural centers in Lahore and other places and how in his last few years devoted himself to the building of a model school which is bound to produce accomplished and well-rounded young men in years to come.

We keep running down politicians but here was this energetic Chief Minister who worked day and night to change conditions for the good. It is remarkable how he could demolish decades old encroachments and rebuild roads in Lahore in record time of high quality without the paraphernalia of an army of monitors, could make the government servants work diligently, produce results and lay the foundation of the IT revolution in the province. It is right here that two sisters built up their careers working for women and their rights. Today when we see the world honouring them, let us not forget their courage of conviction and the battles they have fought to pursue that causes they hold dear. They too are Pakistan.

It is amazing how in this very country an ordinary couple Mr and Mrs Edhi by sheer hardwork have set up an ambulance system across the length and breadth of the country. Great teachers of modern management can learn a little from the way he and his wife manage dozens of their welfare projects and keep accounts of millions of rupees that keep pouring in, every month.

Besides Edhi and Imran Khan`s Shaukat Khanum Hospital there were hundreds of other voluntary enterprises working for people in this country. Go and visit Dr Mrs Fahmida Malik`s Patients Welfare Society, Begum Karamat`s Family Cooperatives, Mrs Saeeda Waheed`s Fatima Memorial Hospital, Khalida Tareen`s Institute for the Mentally Retarded, Souriya Anwer`s SOS Children`s Village, late Rashid Chaudhry`s Fountain House, RahmatUllah Layton and Jehandad`s free Eye Hospitals, Behbood, Aurat Foundation, Family Planning Association to name a few and savour the excitement and wonder of Pakistan. Yes Pakistanis are doing great things.

I may close this column by saying a few words about a volunteer organisation I have not mentioned so far and with which I too have been associated for quite sometime. Known as Pakistan Association for the Rehabilitation of Disabled, this organisation, directed and run mostly by women volunteers, provides multiple services for the disabled including hospital treatment, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, vocational training, a high school, workshops for the manufacturing of artificial limbs, and a micro-credit facility for self-employment. It has an annual budget of more than Rs2 crores, most of which comes from voluntary donations. This marvellous effort on the part of ordinary citizens speaks volumes for the tremendous potential and capacity for good, of the people of Pakistan.

The author is a Lahore-based columnist

Since Partition was 53 long years ago and there are only 1-2% Pakistanis who are Hindus, why so much ranting against Hindus and Hinduism and vegetarianism? I hope everyone just gets on with the business of discussing the Pakistani identity though apparently Hinduism and India occupy a disproportionately large place in Ms Sarwari`s sense of her identity.


If you ask me, for all the ranting against Hinduism and repeated claims of the primacy of justice and equality in Islam(all other features of Islamic practice in the 1+ billion?-strong Islamic populace from Horn of Africa to the Philippines being summarily dismissed as `Hindu` in origin), the author has her understanding of the modern practice and fundamentals of either religion all skewed.

I would think the overtly visible illeffects (taken by the author as a fundamental feature) of Hindu practice as seen by Muslims could be untouchability/caste system and idolatory. Now lets look at modern practice and untouchability. There is no movement among modern Hindus to preserve untouchability as a necessary fundamental principle of their religion. In practice, plenty is being done to eliminate it and to yield equal place to all groups in the national discourse.

On the other hand, Ms Sarwari seems to advocate actively practicing untouchability. Its obvious in the article in delineation of a Pakistani identity and replies on this forum that its being embraced as a virtue and a religion by many young Pakistanis to consider some groups ( Hindus for example)) outside the pale of any civilised discourse irrespective of any impartial judgement. The repeated references to Islam wrt national identity make it clear that nonMuslims Pakistanis would have to accept the terms offered to them by Muslim Pakistanis.

And this is true in many Muslim countries.

In summary, it will be hard to convince any observer merely by noble words(and a Muslim surname) about your ideals of `equality and justice` if you practice exactly the opposite.

Now, the other evil I mentioned, idolatory:

From an interesting opinion piece in the Times of India, March 8th 2001:

``...Idolatry (the worship of idols) can take many forms. Whenever irrational importance is attributed to a material object, no matter what its shape, idolatry results. ...````... All religious groups are made to idolise shrines, scriptures, and saints in varying degrees. These become the means by which the priestly class formats the religiosity of their folds. ...````

In this, idolatory is interpreted as giving inordinate(irrational) spiritual, moral or religious weight to a material object or practice. Now if nationalism or Pakistan-Islam amalgam is the religion of choice, IMO, the author and others give too much importance their anti-Hindu/ anti-India sentiments while defining themselves. To be focussed on India/Hinduism/Indians even in hatred even when speaking solely about Pakistan and Islam is also a form of idolatory.

Lastly, some Archie cards commonsense:
To be so hidebound by your hatred is no independence. Is it worthwhile to sacrifice your better judgement for the sake of preserving hatred, or is it more worthwhile to keep your better judgement for the sake of preserving something you love?


Sadhana

Purple:

``Why shouldn’t we rejuvenate them or is there nothing to rejuvenate?`` The problem is, I think, that somehow we got off track, those tracks have now become so old and rusty that they stand in stark contrast with the world and progress. We can either rejuvenate them as you say, but it will be a bumpy ride and we`ll probably get off it again, or we could uproot the tracks, have a new and modern light rain, that can not only help us keep the destination in mind clearly and get us there soon but also remove the bigotry that went along with adhering to the sacredness of the good for nothing tracks...In short, there is I think need for utter revision of thoughts and revolution major of mindsets before we leap into the momentum of the world.

Rsexena:

Congratulations on being the authority on Hijab.

Mr. Billal:

Could I have your email? I want to send you something I wrote regarding your question.

Mr. Anil:

That`s nice... I appreciate the answers. Antagonism is good.

Wassalam.

Aisha

Ref ali1 #: 85

[You seem to be a master of religous history with special emphasis on pre-pubescent girls so I thought I would ask you: Is it true that a pre-pubescent Sita slept with the monkey Hanuma (with Rama`s full permission) as a reward for his (its) efforts in her rescue?]

Rama, Sita and Hanuman are legends. They may or may not have existed. Unlike that camel-rider Muhammed who not only married 6-year-old Ayesha but slept with her. The on-going debate at Al Azhar University in Cairo and the doctoral dissertations are on exactly how old Ayesha was when Muhammed decided to have sex with her: was she 6 or was she 9? Even Islamic scholars have difficulty swallowing the idea that the founder of their religion had sex with a six-year-old.

I believe you guys are enjoined to live the exemplary life that Muhammed led. This would include marrying your elderly boss (provided she is a female), rubbing your backside with Arabian desert sand after crapping (I understand Islamic households are substituting kitty litter in the West after getting a fatwa from the local mullah), killing anyone who you think is an enemy (like Kansi did in Virginia and a host of other thugs who are in jail in the US for bombing and assorted terrorist activities), marrying 20 women except that you can only have 4 at the same time as opposed to Muhammed, killing your daughters for having dates (this seems to be the specialty of educated as well as illiterate people in Peshawar and people are searching to see where Muhammed has ordained this), destroying cultural histories of entire nations, and a host of other behavior patterns repugnant to anyone who claims membership in the community of homo sapiens.

Have you considered that you Muslims regress to being Vandals and Neanderthals every chance you get?

[And that her vaginal and rectal orifices were enjoined as a result of this one night stand?]

This kind of brutal raping with the result you mention was last reported in Jakarta when the Indonesian (read, Islamic) thugs went about raping Chinese girls to protest the rule of Suharto, another Indonesian Muslim. How come all you Islamic thugs can think of is anal and vaginal rape when you think of women? Is that written down somewhere in the Quran or is that what your mullahs teach you in the madrassahs?

This board is quickly going south...Time for grown-ups to leave

rSUXena #86,

yawn...did you say something?

:)

re sadna #82:

Good point. Another interesting thing is the influence outsiders exert on this search for a balance between religion and modernity. For instance Pakistan`s delicate religious mix is constantly under attack from the Shias in Iran and to a greater degree by the bedouin Wahabism of Saudi Arabia. Israel is heavily influenced by the fianciers of Wall St. and the media tycoons in Beverly Hills. Just like the expatriate population which is so fond of coming up with fancy schemes of religious and national identities(this article is a perfect example), these outside influences have a very romantic notion of how things ought to be. Comfortably ensconced in the palaces of the middle-East or apartments on Park Avenue(Sorry Rutgers doesn`t count) they follow personal agendas without understanding the cultural or personal preferences of the populace they seek to influence. In many cases their progeny is even less informed and more rabid than its elders.....

later

-sac

In response to sarwari (Reply # 91)
Dear Aisha:

Here is my e-mail address: bahmad@home.com

-- Bilal

Sadna reply # 90,

This may or may not pertain to your note, but I thought I`d add my 2 paisas. I don`t know about others, but various Muslim/Islamist groups in Pakistan and Afghanistan have stated that their aim is to help propagate Islam further in India. You have to agree there are many who can be converted especially the Dalits/oppressed classes who continue to suffer. Lets not forget how aid was distributed in Gujarat after the earthquake: higher caste first please!

For these Muslims it helps to expound on the bad qualities of Hindu religion and society. It is a good Muslim`s duty to let people that they have Islam as an option. My personal belief is that Islam in theory is better defined and has better attributes than Hinduism.

I hope you don`t take this in a negative way. This may in fact help India improve its society and change the way people have seen/treated each other (caste based) for centuries. This centuries old mentality will take quite a bit of effort to undo.

Good luck and I hope India can change before the Afghans get there (just kidding).