The Good Husband

krashid #103, ``Woh To Amrika Ka Raasta Khul Guya. American Medical Association Ke Karam se glamour Hai.``

Unfortunately, this AMA association results in an attitude problem as well. I`ve seen more stuck up desi (Indian and Pakistani) doctors here than American. I don`t know what it is about desi doctors. My family and I have encountered less sympathy and understanding in desi doctors than American. Maybe you and ms. Shirin Ahmed could enlighten me as to why.

Do medical colleges back home offer good/extensive training in patient management?

Another thing I`ve noticed is that Indian doctors are even worse at patient management than Pakistanis. My sister and I recently had a terrible experience with an Indian doctor. Instead of listening and understanding, she was confrontational and rude. Forget the Hippocratic oath, this person was downright offensive.

Ironically, the first question she asked when we went to her office was ``where are you from?``

In another example, I was rotating through a cardiology ward and noticed two Indian doctors flirting with the nurses in front of patients. It was very unprofessional.

In another case, I saw a marriage break up because a young Pakistani doctor was having an affair with a nurse.

I`ve seen so many of these negativities in desi doctors, that I`ve formed an aversion towards them.

I know there are many exceptions, and there are great desi doctors in the world (i`ve known a few), but sometimes...I lose faith.

What are our medical colleges teaching young doctors these days? Are the eight years spent in medical education in the States superior to the five years back home?

I don`t mean to offend anyone, just trying to figure out what makes desi doctors tick the way they do.

Krashid,

Thanks for replying.Very nice to read you are happily settled in texas.

It is very sad to hear about proffessor Shafi Quereshi.Apparently the only part of his body which can move is his right arm.His speech is very distorted, and he is really leading a vegetable existence.He was in karachi this summer over Eid apparently.Some friends met him, and it was very disturbing to see him in this state.However something which has not changed is his signature stern look. Poor guy .What a thing to happen to him.Feel very sory over the whole scenario !

BTW, karatela`s site is in full swing, and flourishing ! writers wanted there , so do look it up again. you will enjoy it .Lots happening !and like you said one feels connected ....

Take care , and hope to see you at the forums.Heated debates , Arag style are usually in full form , and it will be very nice to get more involvement there . do try and make it !

AAmir,

why the resentment ? are you a dow alumnus too ?Whom do u know amongst the people Krashid and i mutualy know ?Please enlighten us !

Sorry Bina, shoot me if you want ... i promise to be out of here as soon as i can provide a complete list of the medical colleges in pakistan , a request by a fellow writer here !

Take care ,

Regards,

Shirin

The interacts between Shirin Ahmad and krashid are turning into the plot of an intersting Indian movie. My own guess is that, toward the end, the two main characters will discover that they are long lost twin brother and sister :-)

temporal #111

....... read your karachi vignettes - loved them ! ... thanks for a good read.

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Adnan_672[Post # 70]:

Your argument on ``lofty ideas`` made me revisit your post. I do not believe in equal rights from any angle. In a country like Pakistan, that`s impossible! Also, anywhere else on the face of earth you cannot expect to have the total balance. So I would not necessarily lay the blame on our country necessarily. But equal opportunities ``without any restrictions`` are the basic right of our women. No one, and specially a man, should come forth to request otherwise.

During my undergrad Engineering Years from late 80s to early 90s, my professors(all Phds from the US and UK)had mixed mentalities. Some were very rigid on their perspective that women should not work in any Industry, whereas others were that women should work[Very few]. The class size was 62 students; 2 females and 60 guys. Both me and my female colleague were merit scholarship holders throughout our engineering tenure and before that as well.

State had NO right to come and tell us what we needed to do with our lives!
State never interfered and straightened the men in any field.
Who gave them the right to tell the intelligent and self-motivated women what they needed to do? Completely Unacceptable!

Interestingly, all the petitions filed by Nikammae` Men in Lahore High Court got kicked out. They very well deserved it. Won`t ever dare to tread that path again, hopefully.

I would not have contradicted your views, had I been in School myself. When I was, I was a strong proponent of working women[as that`s what I had grown up with]. I`ve led women career orientation seminars in my late teens during the undegrad years; used to actively participate in the Business & Professional Women`s Club - Lahore and many other activities. Now after 6-7 years, I see that as a naive thinking process. Whoever spends 5-6 years of their lives in a professional school(like engineering or medicine)better know of their future course of action. If they won`t themselves, then no one can come and tell them what to do and how to do that. It`s a complete waste.

Still, state has NO right to interfere. For all those, who entered on merit, state is doing no favor to them. Yes, the ones who were on itsy bitsy quotas should be made to sign by force.

Had the educational system cared to fine tune itself; then the cream of the crop would have contributed effectively, even during their student life. Ironically that factor is totally ignored till the graduates[men as well as women] head out towards finer pastures and whenever they visit home, their business cards are anxiously seeked for the exchange of intellectual ideas/meetings. Irony!

Ground Reality!

Take Care.

PS: You seem to be in that batch that very religiously pursued those petitions in LHC in late 80s. Due to that fiasco, many of my friends in medicine graduated a year later or so. They should have been out by 92-93[my batch]than 94 -95. Well, all is well that ends well :-)!

Howdy y`all

I`m Sorry to take your space Bina but I would like to make a request to Chowk Staff, if possible, to designate a special section on the site which relates to all Charitable organisations working in Southeast, i.e. Pakistan, India, Bangladesh etc etc. The spot would include such details as their contacts, history, missions, their systems of functions, methods of fund collections, annual outcomes, personal experiences of people who`ve worked for charities, useful ideas, methods of setting up the organisations etc etc and we could all contribute our own little bit to this knowledge.

I`ve heard many people say that Chowk is a bekaar vela place meant for useless chatter and maybe it`s true but I`m not quiet willing to believe that just yet. A single water molecule is nothing but get enough of them and they become `wet.`

All in favour say `yay`.

Umer Murtaza Phoenix.

Scout #

You have asked so many questions.

As far as Dow Medical college is concerned, it takes the cream of Karachi. It used to have a high standard.

Due to many reasons: namely, hiring of professors and lecturers on the basis of ethnicity instead of merit, outdated system of examination leading to cheating in exams etc, it might have deteriorated.

American system is oriented towards both theory and practice and references are as important as examination and attendance is a must. Very practical.

Our system is oriented towards examination. So a person thinking of America usually does self study missing practical experience and attendance and usually does good in examination and achieves the aim of getting good marks in USMLE. References are given out of good heart and not on the basis of real experience.

On your other observations two things I need to say.

1- Five fingers are not equal.

2- May God not give nails to bald.

Not all Indians are same in studies and experience and neither all Pakistanis. But Pakistani who come usually are on their merits, while Indians have other connections also.

Also the other mirch masala stuff. It is the same for Indian and Pakistanis except that it is much more skewed towards Indian. But it is not majority, but small minority as much as I can tell about Pakistanis. Moreover, probably a large number of unwed people is also the reason. In my batch of 30 or so one Muslim was Tabglighi and is out of question, the remaining three were married. Indian people directly hired (due to other connections like direct hiring from India as I mentioned) were much younger and unmarried. But majority of them was probably O.K. And a minority were so bad that even Indians loathed.

The old generation of Indian doctors say upto 1992-95 batch is probably more mature than the new generation of Indian doctors. (whose immaturity and pathetic ways are same as new Indian IT interactors here).

Also since you are probably American, you don`t know the psychology of people in India and Pakistan very much, particularly so called liberals from lower or middle class people.

As RSaxena can testify that liberalism is drinking and fornication. And so the life of our liberal doctors revolves around study, drinking and fornication. And this pathetic breed should be no surprise to a Pakistani or Indian.

I have seen some very good and talented Indian doctors as well as Pakistanis.

American system does not want to invest on its own people and so has to bear the consequences. The medical education is very cheap in our country than America.

Which system of education is superior. With my experience, I can say that not only American system is state of the art system but caters to its needs.

While our system is trying to produce doctors who can pass the exam in America or England.

But one thing common among all doctors is greed whether they are Indian or Pakistani or American.

And I would also not recommend you to go to drinking and dancing parties of Pakistani professionals. Liberalism has no religion.

Aamir #120

Can you identify yourself. Which year you graduated and your full name. I am pretty sure I will be able to find some link.

May be you know Safdar Rashid who passed in second batch of 1991.

Krashid #123, & scout #

Your replies to scouts queries are on the dot! i need not add anything more , except one point to scout .If a dr. asks you `` where are you from ``, it should not be taken as an offence.It can be very safely included as part of history taking.The reason being some diseases are endemic in certain parts of the world than others .Given the benefit of doubt i would imagine this being the reason for the question. A lot of times as other Drs .on the board can testify too , we also ask pts. ``What do you do ``? it is again pointed towards completing a detailed history taking procedure. Soo many diseases are, and can be work related ,for eg. like ``Asbestosis `` stress related ,etc. We even have to take a detailed history of the family too, to look for any familial traits , like diabetes , cancer, heart ailments , renal diseases , the list can be endless , so if you are questioned about the medical fitness of your other family members ,dont get alarmed. This again should not be taken personally.When we see pts. we have to keep all these things into account , to form a diagnosis ,come to a conclusion, which sometimes is not direct.

Regarding the flirtatious aspect of `` desi drs. `` let me tell you something.It takes all kinds to make this world .The Good , the Bad and the Ugly, and all three of these varieties are found in every nation, every religion, so we cannot really do finger pointing .....

if you are not happy with your physician,just switch to someone else , with better bedside mamnners.It is very important for a pt. to feel comfortable with their physician.

Umer.M.phoenix,# 122

I second your proposition whole heartedly , so a shout of ``yay `` from my end .However it would be very imp. to see that the funds channelised are used towards the correct purpose.Very sadly i have to add this seeing what are the probabilities of misuse , esp. in Pakistan and India .

Romair, # 118

The thrill of running into a fellow member is very special,esp. from Dow.Hang on, it may even begin to sound better than a desi movie .... if i discover a few more , then it will turn into a soap opera .... :)))) who knows , u might be waiting excitedly for the ``Aglee qist ``.... please treat this very light heartedly, just as i have reacted in amusement to your post !

take care folks !

Shirin

Dear Shirin:
Ref your last post.

I was wondering if flirting is good or bad or ugly.

I think women will wither away and die if men dont flirt with them. It is a life saving elixir.

Urstruly # 126,

Well said ! and very true ....could not agree more , but there are degrees , which delicately have to be treaded on ....

well i have been, am , and i think happily will remain to stay a romantic at heart .....

regards,

Dear Shirin, 110,

This is basically a rehash of what I said to Patrick,

There are quite a few sites but there`s nothing there that goes into the technicalities (or at least nothing that I`ve found). We all know the names and perhaps their missions and a few achievements but that`s all. It would be interesting to have the formulas and systematics of organisations. When I say everything about a model organisation, I mean EVERYTHING. I just feel that not many of us no exactly how that money is spent or how can the systems be made more efficient.

I was in a charity for some time many years ago and I became fascinated with the system, right from scratch to finish. I wanted to learn more but could not. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that their `charity began from home`.

If there are three things I learnt, they were:

1) Sadly, for many, charity is a home business comprised of fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters. Their charity begins at home.

2) So much money is wasted on administration costs or people`s salaries.

3) There is a lack of co-ordination/ direction for the overall big picture. Everybody is trying to do their bit but there seems to be no sense of direction.

This, The Fluid Bubble Model, (ha ha ha- I feel very scientifiky today) is just the random thought of a vela mind but using Pakistan as a model:

1) A central non political organisation should be responsible for the activities of every single charity within the country.

2) Small bubbles (individual charities) come inside regional bubbles that come inside provincial bubbles that are ultimately controlled by the big bubble.

3) To qualify as a registered charity, you must adhere to criteria posed by the central organisation (the big bubble), after which you become part of the society and a legitimate organisation.

4) There should be a reserve of volunteer workers that are `fluidic`, i.e independent people with special skills that can be channelled into various places for any particular purpose.

5) The central organisation should be endogenous, i.e. born in Pakistan and governed chiefly by Pakistanis so that it`s answerable only to the Pakistani government.

6) One of the major aims of the `big bubble` should be learning and passing on the experiences. The recent earthquakes or droughts are good examples, so that info to cope with the situation may be spread across to all relevant small organisations.

7) The Big bubble could serve as an intermediary, allowing communication between the small bubbles serving the same mission, to communicate more effectively. The exchange of ideas from one bubble to the next would certainly make specialisation and improvements far more efficient.

8) As a collective, the `Big Bubble` (I`m sorry, I can`t help myself) could work alongside the government and prove itself a worthy aid. It could attract attention from oversees folks whom I sure, seeing a structured organisations, would be able to provide a better contribution.

9) What would the biggest of the bubbles comprise of; Influential people and people with good genuine track records and I talk of such folks as Imran Khan, Edhi etc etc; people whom everyone know and love and respect who are able to create positive influences. All people excelling in their field could enter, e.g. medical professionals, economists, lawyers, artists, engineers, social workers…everyone minus the politicians.

I`ll bugg off now…take care and best wishes.

Umer.M.Phoenix

not to sound like a MCP but I have to say this - DREAM ON!!

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