Is IT the Panacea?

re ROmair #87:

``Any buffoon knows that the Kashmiri uprising is indigeneous``

Thank you for confirming my suspision.

later

-sac

Romair #87

Roamir, can I ask you a question?

Would you say that the Taliban were an indigeneous Afghanistani phenonmenon?

Ref ROmair:

``I wouldn`t be surprised if his views fit in line with the views held by most Indians. So they may not appear biased to you. However, this is the whole point I am trying to make, i.e. if a person`s views only fit into the views of one party in a conflict, those views cannot be considered very objective``

I didnt say I consider him unbaised.

Do you consider your views as objective?

Re: ROmair

``When this guy states even the obvious (like the Kashmiri uprising being indigeneous), ``

You are supposed to be some hotshot Paki IT fellow aren`t you? This says doesn`t say much about your intelligence.

Umairr/Romair,

What the heck should I call you these days?:) I think your post #87 was a masterpiece! Your unique way of arguing a point makes a believer out of me; even if I conciously may disgree with some of what you say. I think you are a FANTASTIC spin doctor. I sincerely mean that as a complement & I `ll tell you why.

Let me argue some of your points ( which I both agree & disagree with). You place great faith (perhaps faith is not an accurate word) in the opinion of ``neutral`` ``experts``.

I`ve put both those words in parenthesis because of the following. It is impossible for ANY human being to be absolutely neutral. Biases are built in every human mind. For instance, your biasis will always be pro Pakistan (no matter how much you criticise Pakistan); the same goes for me--no matter how much I condemn GoI`s policy re Kashmir, my biasis will be pro India. Then again, if we have to compare Germany to France, even if we think we (as in S Asians) are neutral--we will have our own biasis about them. Sure our own opinion will be less bias than a Frenchman or a German. But you cant completely eliminate bias.

As for the term ``expert``. You got to forgive me, but I`m very cynical. Soon after my residency in psych (in the mid 80`s) I worked as a court psychiatrist (with a few other psychiatrists) for about 6 months.. The chief judge in question was sick & tired of ``expert psychiatrists`` bought into court (for a handsome fee) by both plaintiff & defense experts. Those ``experts`` would give diametrically opposite opinions & conclusions of the same issue! So he dissmissed them as being ``hired guns`` who are completely biased to ``which side their bread is being buttered``. So he figured that if the court paid the psychiatrist, he/she would be absolutely non biased & neutral.

So he started a pilot program of getting funding from the State to have the Govt of NY pay our salaries. Heres the funny thing--even us ``completely neutral`` psychiatrists came to diametrically opposite opinions & conclusions about the same issue!!!--it all depended on whether we were subconciously conservative or liberal!!!

Now thats what happens with ``experts`` of ANY inexact science---be it psychiatry, economy, foreign policy, domestic policy, religion/morality, IT policy etc etc etc. So if you can quote an American expert with pro Pakistan views, I can turn around & get an American expert with anti Pakistan views. Now both these guys will be telling the ``truth``. But it all depends on how they SPIN the truth. Incidentally, its perfectly legal & ethical to put a SPIN on the truth because ALL of us have our own biasis about almost EVERYTHING.

The only power that is completely neutral, completely, non biased(? I wonder sometimes) is GOD. Needless to say, He`s a complete expert on everything.

However, we live on Earth, not Heaven. In the ideal world we could have the ``luxury`` of an American raised in Pakistan being a TRUE expert of Pakistan. But do we always have that luxury in the real world? Besides, would that NEUTRAL American ``expert`` be completely NEUTRAL? How do you know?!, maybe he was insulted by some Pakistani & subconciously he hates Pakistanis (because of a stupid prejudice) or conversely treated like a king in Pakistan ,in which case his opinions are totally biased pro-Pakistani.

So ultimately, in my opinion, the views of ``neutral experts`` about ANYTHING are just about as valid or invalid as those of ordinary laypeople Chowkies, who are obviously biased towards the side of the border they were born in.

Sridhar, romair

gremlins seem to have caught my posts, let them have a rest.

regards

jay

harimau #85: ``going so far as to say that the struggle in Kashmir is indigenous.``

This is exactly my point. When this guy states even the obvious (like the Kashmiri uprising being indigeneous), it is considered objective analysis.

Any buffoon knows that the Kashmiri uprising is indigeneous. Pakistani volunteers are aiding in the uprsing, but the uprising itself is indigeneous, and supported by an overwhelming majority of Kashmiris. The Indian govt. knows this (if it didn`t consider the uprising indigeneous, it would have held a plebescite there decades ago). All the international human rights organizations know it. The US govt. knows it. Deep down in their heart of hearts, all the Indians know this also. The only people who do not know this are the ones who have extremely biased opinions. If the benchmark of a person`s objectivity is that once in a blue moon, he will state the obvious, then wouldn`t that indicate that he is biased?

As a matter of principle, a person who is a professor (not in India, but in the US), and happens to be an Indian, should ethically refrain from commenting on the internal matters of Pakistan; lest his views be considered biased. Or at the very least, that person should highlight the fact that he is commenting about a country with which his native country is at war with, and a country within which he is not considered an objective analyst. If Mr. Ganguly was working for the BJP in the Indian Embassy, one could understand that he has to portray the Indian point of view on everything. But he is not. He is a professor in a third country, USA.

I think, for a person to be considered an expert on a certain country, there should be a pre-requisite that person have at least spent a significant portion of his life in the country on which he/she claims expertise. If he/she hasn`t done so, than he/she should refrain from acting like an expert in that area.

bong_dongs: #84: ``Can you cite instances of his bias?``

I have seen Mr. Ganguly speak on US TV every now and then, and have read various articles written by him on Pakistan. His views are generally completely one-sided, pro-India. One would think he was a member of the Indian govt., not a professor in America. I am not quite sure how he can comment with such authority on the Pakistani society, when he didn`t even grow up there. I am sure there are plenty of Pakistanis who have quite a bit more knowledge of Pakistan than he does. In my opinion, when the US press contacts him, they are generally trying to get the Indian point of view on Pakistan. Even in the article in the previous reply, Mr. Ganguly was shown as the, ``negative`` on Pakistan, while the Pakistani guy was shown as the, ``positive`` on Pakistan.

``At best Ganguly, who called Pakistan`s IT policy is a lot of ``smoke screens,````

I have been following Pakistan`s IT policy since it was put out, and even I cannot say with any amount of certainity whether it is a smoke-screen or not. Even though, IT is part of my profession and I grew up in Pakistan, and worked in the Pakistani beaurecracy for a decade. How can Mr. Ganguly be so sure?

``And that`s not even factoring in corruption, noted Ganguly. A few years ago, a Swiss group ranked Pakistan as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, second only to Nigeria, he said.``

This is true. However,

``NEW DELHI, OCT 26: Transparency International (TI) India, a non-governmental `peoples` coalition against corruption`, said on Tuesday that according to a study it had commissioned, India was among the most corrupt nations in the world.

India was ranked 73rd among the 99 countries covered by the study conducted by Gallup International (GIA), a press note by the TI said....Pakistan was perceived as being more corrupt than India, though only marginally, ranking 88`` (http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/19991027/ige27045.html)

So if India can achieve so much IT success, despite being marginally less corrupt than Pakistan, then why cannot Pakistan do the same.

As far as his documented biases are concerned, as much as I would like to satisfy your request, I currently do not have the time to go through all my notes. I would suggest you do a search on his name, and you will find plenty of articles covering his views on Pakistan. If you are unable to come up with any info, in a week or so, kindly let me know, and I will be happy to assist you.

I wouldn`t be surprised if his views fit in line with the views held by most Indians. So they may not appear biased to you. However, this is the whole point I am trying to make, i.e. if a person`s views only fit into the views of one party in a conflict, those views cannot be considered very objective.

It should obvious from Chowk, that it is impossible for Pakistanis to be objective about India, and Indians to be objective about Pakistan. Keeping that in mind, I would encourage everyone to rely on the information provided by independent analysts from third party countries, and internationally recognized human rights organizations. Mr. Ganguly does not fall into either of those categories.

Dear All:

I received some emails with great comments on iopwe`s website. It will be great if all the folks who are interested in sharing their perspective/giving the feedback can put their comments in the ``comments section`` on the website.

Or

Just post your thoughts on the bulletin board. Please do care to write a subject in the subject-line. I hope that won`t be asking too much.

Thanks for taking the time to give your feedback.

Regards.

Ref Romair #: 83

[Zamir : ``Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas.``

I have never figured out why this guy always shows up in anything related to Pakistan.]

You should be glad; he has been quite critical of India`s role in Kashmir, going so far as to say that the struggle in Kashmir is indigenous.

Ref Sumit Ganguly:

Can you cite instances of his bias?

Zamir : ``Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas.``

I have never figured out why this guy always shows up in anything related to Pakistan. I have never heard him say anything good about Pakistan, for obvious reasons. I wonder how long he has lived in Pakistan. Perhaps, Americans think since he looks desi, he is a Pakistani.

I am not sure whether it is objective to interview Indians regarding Pakistan, and Pakistanis regarding India. More than likely they are going to show the other country in bad light. The interviewees, specially if they are professors like Mr. Ganguly, should be aware of their own biases, and if they have any integrity, should refuse to comment on the other country. Otherwise they just turn into propoganda machineries. Which is something that a professor should consider below his level of ethics

I did not write post #77 dammit!

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Zamir:

Thanks for a great read!

Just thought of putting this here. An FYI.


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Romair:

Thanks for your suggestions. I suggest you should pick up the phone; get a meeting arranged with the exec. team in the area; discuss your suggestions over a nice cup of coffee; enlighten the members with your views and get the buy in. How`s that? Simple? Complicated? Hard? Impossible? I guess, while having that cup of coffee, you can tell yourself: ``O reason! not the need!`` :-)


I welcomed you as I saw something in your writings. I guess the ``Thought Process!``


Just to give some background here: During my times, I had a policy of devising the annual road map of the group and used to have a theme for each year. So, by the end of each year, certain goals had to be met. By the Grace of God, I was pretty successful in achieving them. Remember the analogy of ``batallion-leader``! Later on, I wanted other members to feel ownership in the group and come forward, therefore took a step back. Well, I am always there to support. That`s why, I INSIST as a new member YOU should make your ``suggestions`` known to all and sundry in that group. Being a guy, it will bring a different kind of vitality and a different perspective :-)


You also need to realize that the background of all the women in our group is not in IT. It`s engineering, bio-tech or sciences. So it has a very diverse background. My own background is in Chemical Engineering and Information Systems. Luckily, I ain`t into software development at all. Yes, I have been part of many systems integration projects, but I cannot stand programming [lack of patience, I guess]. Well, so do not lump IT in a box with programming only. There is a lot more to it. Personal Experience.


On the other hand, I will simply disagree with your analogy on comparing IOPWE with Chowk. IOPWE is a network. A platform. Many of the iopweians are mentors and role-models for the women back home. I myself have initiated and implemented some great projects and am currently inactively involved in a few[I thrive on creating awareness. I detest and fear ignorance!]. But I must mention as I tried to earlier, I am NOT a die-hard believer that IT by itself is the only way out. You have to integrate what`s existing in your country with all these hi-fi things. You cannot just introduce new things 100% and expect the rest of your masses to be left in a daze. I will take an example of make-up. I am a strong proponent of accentuating ones features than attaching a new nose or a fake eye-brow or fake eye-lashes. I do not believe in that. They may make one look prettier, but that`s not my ideology.


Regarding Coffee Parties: Can you please tell me where do they take place? I am a connoisseur of gourmet coffee and would love to know who to call when I visit Cali the next time? Seriously, Inquisitive! ( *_ *)? I have never attended one :-(
Kabhi Naheen!


Networking is one thing. Socialization is another. Most of the professional women, single and married have no time to indulge in vailee baikaar activities,in my experience [specially in the US as well as back home]. Personally, I have, hardly ever, come across any educated woman from Pakistan[regardless of the social strata she hailed from]who indulges in such baikaar[certainly, a relative term] activities. Different Experiences, I guess.


With all that said, I WILL expect to see YOU posting the message on IOPWE`s bulletin board. Let`s see the enthusiasm that you bring :-) I ain`t challenging; I am just making an effort to motivate thee to take a step further :-) Looking forward to seeing your intellectually stimulating and informative postings there. You Need to share the brilliant ideas with your fellow countrywomen. You OWE it to them :-) Currently the message board is being used more like a bulletin-board than anything else. So let`s not be so judgemental here. It`s harldy a year old infant. Patience and Kindness, sire! Patience and Kindness.

[Salutes]- to the good ideas!

Take Care.