Is IT the Panacea?

Reply #: 11 RSaxena

``Read it and weep, Urstruly.

Local commander of Lashkar militant group killed in Kashmir``

Have u pebbles in place of a heart Sir?

zahra/romair: thx. ever so much for your positive reaction to the women in IT initiative. it is in its infant stages yet and, frankly, we can use all the help available, but be assured it is a step in the right direction and, if it is blessed w/ even half the volunteer effort put into organisatons such as iopwe, open-us, tie etc., it will find its feet!

what remains to be seen is how much actual support we receive, other than ``zabani jama kharch``. let`s see, i continue to await response on stars@comsats.net.pk.

i am amazed at the negative comments i read in this and in other such interactions. i do not speak for the govt or the IT commission, but i believe questions such as ``khakis on the IT commission`` or ``dr. atta`s capabilities and intention`` or ``university initiatives`` need not even be asked. i think the skeptics need to simply visit the website www.itcomm.org.pk and other such to get answers immediately. for example, there are indeed no khakis on the commission, dr. atta`s ministry is as free of bureaucracy as one could possibly be, and dr. atta is as capable a professional as we could hope to have at the helm. sure, as w/ every initiative, there are some serious flaws, some short-sighted decisions and also some hidden agendas, but those come w/ the territory so lets look beyond them, maybe? i mean, the only way you will NEVER be wrong is if you never ATTEMPT anything. as for intentions, well, let us be positive and believe that the professor and his team mean well. it is only fair to give people the benefit of the doubt, right?

finally, results - let us all put our energies and skills together to contribute to improvement. it will, ultimately, be for us to assess the return on investment achieved thru the current efforts of the ministry and the govt., but let us empower the team w/ our skills and experience as well. as far as technology uplift is concerned, ANY PLACE is better than where pakistan is at right now, so let us not beat up on those who are TRYING to make a difference. the entire theme of technology uplift in pakistan is to get skilled INDIVIDUALS involved.

you who live and operate on the better side of the digital divide know the benefit of a system that WORKS. you also know how communities uplift society thru individual and cooperative effort. nowhere in the world does the govt. need to intervene as much because communities and technocrats fail to do their civic duty to bring about improvement for the masses. dont get me wrong; i do not advocate or condone most of what happens in the country. interacting regularly with public and private sector in the country in my professional capacity, i am as cynical and frustrated as we come, but i also continue to have tremendous faith in the INDIVIDUAL and the difference that his/her SKILL, TALENT and PASSION can make to society at large.

rgds.

its said that ``shadi woh luddo hai jo khaye woh bhi pachtaye aor jo na khaye woh bhi pachtayee``.....what do u say

This was published in Wall Street Journal ( interactive edition ) a couple of months ago, I am posting it here for everyone`s benefit.

December 22, 2000

Dow Jones Newswires

Pakistan Looks To IT To Jump-Start Flagging Economy

By DONNA FUSCALDO

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

NEW YORK -- Faced with a labor shortage in the U.S., George Bogle did what many constrained employers do. He looked to the international markets for relief.

But the president and chief executive of Houston software company MegaMania Interactive didn`t tap the usual suspects like Ireland and India, famous for their abundant supply of inexpensive software developers. Instead the Texan bet his money on Pakistan, a country reeling from a military coup and facing a stagnant economy.

Ian Rowe had to get iMar.com up and running in breakneck speed but couldn`t afford the inflated outsourcing fees found in the U.S. So the entrepreneur turned to the Internet and found a little Web development company that had the talent and could meet the deadline at a much loftier price. Surprisingly, that company`s headquarters are in Pakistan.

Pakistan, a country that shares its border with bitter rival India, fundamentalist Afghanistan, and communist China, is known more for its nuclear-weapon proliferation, ongoing clashes with India and waning relations with the U.S. than for its technology prowess.

But the new military regime, which ousted the civilian rule in a bloodless coup in October of 1999 is aggressively trying to lure back foreign investment lost during the uprising. Its No. 1 hope in doing so is information technology.

This past year, Pakistan, under the rule of Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf, instituted its first ever IT policy that includes generous tax breaks and financing arrangements for foreigners who set up shop in or outsource software development to the country.

The government has set up many policies to entice IT businesses. The policies include lifting duties on all computer hardware and equipment, providing a five-year tax holiday on software exports and foreign investments and offering software exporters a credit line with a low interest rate that doesn`t require collateral. The government also has committed 5 billion rupees or roughly $850 million to IT and plans to build seven universities concentrating solely on technology.

Software exports account for $60 to $70 million in revenue, but the government wants to boost that to $500 million in five years. And start-ups like MegaMania and iMar.com aren`t the only high-tech companies to turn to Pakistan. Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), Oracle Corp. (ORCL), Sun Microsystems Inc. (SUNW) and Motorola Inc. (MOT) all have a presence in the region, and International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) may build a manufacturing plant there, according to Farrakh Qayyum, Minister of Trade. Officials at IBM declined to comment on its future plans.

Why have so many high-tech companies ignored the perils of Pakistan and set up camp there? For Bogle, the Texas businessman, it was simple: to save money.

The cost of software development in Pakistan is about 15% of the cost in the United States, said Bogle, who at first was hesitant to disclose figures out of fear that others would jump on the Pakistan bandwagon.

Bogle`s MegaMania opened up its facilities in Pakistan just months after the October coup that ousted Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

``I got cautioned by a lot of people from friends on,`` said Bogle. ``But some things you do by faith and I had ultimate confidence in our man Norr that he wouldn`t have told me it was safe if it wasn`t,`` he said, referring to MegaMania`s chief technology officer Nooruddin Paracha, who suggested the company look at Pakistan. With a minimal investment, the benefits outweighed the risks, said Bogle, whose company is about to merge with Gulfnet Pakistan Ltd., a Pakistani software developer.

Foreign Investors Urged To Use Caution

But risks need to be considered. In addition to the clashes with India in the Kashmir region which have led to the nuclear weapon proliferation, Pakistan is currently ruled by a military government which has promised to hold elections and turn over control in 2002. So future IT policy is unclear. Investors in the region also have to contend with a lackluster economy.

``Pakistan`s economy is in very deep structural trouble,`` said Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas. ``Any where from 26% to 38% of the national budget gets devoted to national defense and another roughly 30% is debt servicing.``

Less than 10% of the population pay taxes and the country derives most of its revenue from agriculture and textile exports, he said.

And that`s not even factoring in corruption, noted Ganguly. A few years ago, a Swiss group ranked Pakistan as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, second only to Nigeria, he said.

But Pakistan`s minister of trade disagrees. He said the government is weeding out corruption. And with a growth rate of 3.5%, the economy is not in bad shape.

``The textile sector is doing well, we have an excellent wheat crop and the economy is not as bad as the media portrays it,`` Qayyum said.

As for the military handing over control in 2002, the current government is committed to the process of elections, Qayyum said.

Still Ganguly said foreign companies should be cautious. ``At this point (Pakistan`s IT policy) is all on paper. It remains to be seen how this will transform in any real meaningful action,`` he said.

At best Ganguly, who called Pakistan`s IT policy is a lot of ``smoke screens,`` said the country`s technology push could be compared with Malaysia`s initiatives a decade ago.

``Malaysia has been able to succeed reasonably well, but the country started out with a much greater base of wealth,`` he said.

Few emerging countries are making a dent in technology. ``A country needs extraordinary engineering skills,`` Qayyum said. ``It`s not like growing corn.``

Motorola, the handset maker, is already benefiting from Pakistan`s IT policy. According to Zouhair Khaliq, director of operations, Europe, Middle East and Africa, at Motorola, the military government has brought more stability and a more receptive regulatory environment. In the past, the country was less stable.

Take January 1995 for instance. The then-ruling government shut down Mobilink GSM, a cellular operator in Pakistan in which Motorola had a 75% stake, citing security reasons. By June of that year, all three cellular operators in Karachi, Pakistan`s largest city, were closed and a ban was imposed until January 1997. As a result, Motorola reduced its stake in Mobilink GSM to 30%, diluting its risk, Khaliq said.

Pakistan Makeover Focuses On Software Exports

But with the new government and its new policies, Mobilink is prospering. ``Mobilink has experienced the best growth in the past 12 months. The Ministry of IT and telecommunications (under the military government) approved a calling party pay policy last month and this is expected to encourage cellular growth as it has in other such markets,`` Khaliq said. Mobilink has grown its customer base three fold and is forecasting 300% growth for next year alone, he said.

Bahram Mohazzebi, Gulf and Eastern Mediterranean general manager at Microsoft, agreed that the technology sector in Pakistan is gaining momentum. He cited the government`s decision to remove duties from technology products. ``Pakistan is a huge market and we believe that it will be a major contributor to IT in the region,`` said Mohazzebi.

Microsoft set up shop in March and expects its presence to grow. Like many high-tech companies, Microsoft was lured by Pakistan`s large population of 132 million people and by cheap labor.

Pakistan is trying to move from being an exporter of cotton and textiles to an exporter of software, said Philip Oldenburg, associate director of the Southern Asia Institute at Columbia University. The country can emulate India, which has attracted IT outsourcing business, Oldenburg said.

An IT push in Pakistan is viable, but Oldenburg said he doesn`t think Pakistan will be able to thrive as much as India has. Pakistan and India share similar English education systems, but India`s higher education programs are more advanced, he said.

``India has an enormous pool of trained engineers,`` Ganguly said. ``Pakistan just doesn`t have that same kind of pool. They never made the same investment in engineering and education that India did in the early `60s.``

Pakistan`s Qayyum disagrees, however. Not only does he contend Pakistan offers better facilities than other countries, it also has an ample number of English-speaking citizens and has bandwidth connectivity rates that are lower than India`s, he said.

``We have a vision to be in the IT map of the world,`` he said. ``Pakistan has the sufficient infrastructure and incentives for IT to flourish as it does in other countries.``

-Donna Fuscaldo; Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-5253;

donna.fuscaldo@dowjones.com

This was published in Wall Street Journal ( interactive edition ) a couple of months ago, I am posting it here for everyone`s benefit.

December 22, 2000

Dow Jones Newswires

Pakistan Looks To IT To Jump-Start Flagging Economy

By DONNA FUSCALDO

Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

NEW YORK -- Faced with a labor shortage in the U.S., George Bogle did what many constrained employers do. He looked to the international markets for relief.

But the president and chief executive of Houston software company MegaMania Interactive didn`t tap the usual suspects like Ireland and India, famous for their abundant supply of inexpensive software developers. Instead the Texan bet his money on Pakistan, a country reeling from a military coup and facing a stagnant economy.

Ian Rowe had to get iMar.com up and running in breakneck speed but couldn`t afford the inflated outsourcing fees found in the U.S. So the entrepreneur turned to the Internet and found a little Web development company that had the talent and could meet the deadline at a much loftier price. Surprisingly, that company`s headquarters are in Pakistan.

Pakistan, a country that shares its border with bitter rival India, fundamentalist Afghanistan, and communist China, is known more for its nuclear-weapon proliferation, ongoing clashes with India and waning relations with the U.S. than for its technology prowess.

But the new military regime, which ousted the civilian rule in a bloodless coup in October of 1999 is aggressively trying to lure back foreign investment lost during the uprising. Its No. 1 hope in doing so is information technology.

This past year, Pakistan, under the rule of Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf, instituted its first ever IT policy that includes generous tax breaks and financing arrangements for foreigners who set up shop in or outsource software development to the country.

The government has set up many policies to entice IT businesses. The policies include lifting duties on all computer hardware and equipment, providing a five-year tax holiday on software exports and foreign investments and offering software exporters a credit line with a low interest rate that doesn`t require collateral. The government also has committed 5 billion rupees or roughly $850 million to IT and plans to build seven universities concentrating solely on technology.

Software exports account for $60 to $70 million in revenue, but the government wants to boost that to $500 million in five years. And start-ups like MegaMania and iMar.com aren`t the only high-tech companies to turn to Pakistan. Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), Oracle Corp. (ORCL), Sun Microsystems Inc. (SUNW) and Motorola Inc. (MOT) all have a presence in the region, and International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) may build a manufacturing plant there, according to Farrakh Qayyum, Minister of Trade. Officials at IBM declined to comment on its future plans.

Why have so many high-tech companies ignored the perils of Pakistan and set up camp there? For Bogle, the Texas businessman, it was simple: to save money.

The cost of software development in Pakistan is about 15% of the cost in the United States, said Bogle, who at first was hesitant to disclose figures out of fear that others would jump on the Pakistan bandwagon.

Bogle`s MegaMania opened up its facilities in Pakistan just months after the October coup that ousted Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

``I got cautioned by a lot of people from friends on,`` said Bogle. ``But some things you do by faith and I had ultimate confidence in our man Norr that he wouldn`t have told me it was safe if it wasn`t,`` he said, referring to MegaMania`s chief technology officer Nooruddin Paracha, who suggested the company look at Pakistan. With a minimal investment, the benefits outweighed the risks, said Bogle, whose company is about to merge with Gulfnet Pakistan Ltd., a Pakistani software developer.

Foreign Investors Urged To Use Caution

But risks need to be considered. In addition to the clashes with India in the Kashmir region which have led to the nuclear weapon proliferation, Pakistan is currently ruled by a military government which has promised to hold elections and turn over control in 2002. So future IT policy is unclear. Investors in the region also have to contend with a lackluster economy.

``Pakistan`s economy is in very deep structural trouble,`` said Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas. ``Any where from 26% to 38% of the national budget gets devoted to national defense and another roughly 30% is debt servicing.``

Less than 10% of the population pay taxes and the country derives most of its revenue from agriculture and textile exports, he said.

And that`s not even factoring in corruption, noted Ganguly. A few years ago, a Swiss group ranked Pakistan as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, second only to Nigeria, he said.

But Pakistan`s minister of trade disagrees. He said the government is weeding out corruption. And with a growth rate of 3.5%, the economy is not in bad shape.

``The textile sector is doing well, we have an excellent wheat crop and the economy is not as bad as the media portrays it,`` Qayyum said.

As for the military handing over control in 2002, the current government is committed to the process of elections, Qayyum said.

Still Ganguly said foreign companies should be cautious. ``At this point (Pakistan`s IT policy) is all on paper. It remains to be seen how this will transform in any real meaningful action,`` he said.

At best Ganguly, who called Pakistan`s IT policy is a lot of ``smoke screens,`` said the country`s technology push could be compared with Malaysia`s initiatives a decade ago.

``Malaysia has been able to succeed reasonably well, but the country started out with a much greater base of wealth,`` he said.

Few emerging countries are making a dent in technology. ``A country needs extraordinary engineering skills,`` Qayyum said. ``It`s not like growing corn.``

Motorola, the handset maker, is already benefiting from Pakistan`s IT policy. According to Zouhair Khaliq, director of operations, Europe, Middle East and Africa, at Motorola, the military government has brought more stability and a more receptive regulatory environment. In the past, the country was less stable.

Take January 1995 for instance. The then-ruling government shut down Mobilink GSM, a cellular operator in Pakistan in which Motorola had a 75% stake, citing security reasons. By June of that year, all three cellular operators in Karachi, Pakistan`s largest city, were closed and a ban was imposed until January 1997. As a result, Motorola reduced its stake in Mobilink GSM to 30%, diluting its risk, Khaliq said.

Pakistan Makeover Focuses On Software Exports

But with the new government and its new policies, Mobilink is prospering. ``Mobilink has experienced the best growth in the past 12 months. The Ministry of IT and telecommunications (under the military government) approved a calling party pay policy last month and this is expected to encourage cellular growth as it has in other such markets,`` Khaliq said. Mobilink has grown its customer base three fold and is forecasting 300% growth for next year alone, he said.

Bahram Mohazzebi, Gulf and Eastern Mediterranean general manager at Microsoft, agreed that the technology sector in Pakistan is gaining momentum. He cited the government`s decision to remove duties from technology products. ``Pakistan is a huge market and we believe that it will be a major contributor to IT in the region,`` said Mohazzebi.

Microsoft set up shop in March and expects its presence to grow. Like many high-tech companies, Microsoft was lured by Pakistan`s large population of 132 million people and by cheap labor.

Pakistan is trying to move from being an exporter of cotton and textiles to an exporter of software, said Philip Oldenburg, associate director of the Southern Asia Institute at Columbia University. The country can emulate India, which has attracted IT outsourcing business, Oldenburg said.

An IT push in Pakistan is viable, but Oldenburg said he doesn`t think Pakistan will be able to thrive as much as India has. Pakistan and India share similar English education systems, but India`s higher education programs are more advanced, he said.

``India has an enormous pool of trained engineers,`` Ganguly said. ``Pakistan just doesn`t have that same kind of pool. They never made the same investment in engineering and education that India did in the early `60s.``

Pakistan`s Qayyum disagrees, however. Not only does he contend Pakistan offers better facilities than other countries, it also has an ample number of English-speaking citizens and has bandwidth connectivity rates that are lower than India`s, he said.

``We have a vision to be in the IT map of the world,`` he said. ``Pakistan has the sufficient infrastructure and incentives for IT to flourish as it does in other countries.``

-Donna Fuscaldo; Dow Jones Newswires; 201-938-5253;

donna.fuscaldo@dowjones.com

Zahra #70: Thanks for the welcome. Although I am not sure whether I deserve it. I just paid the money, attended the function, had lunch, and signed my name onto something. I think one or two of the Chowk founders spoke at the particular function I attended. There was an Indian guy who had started seven companies and was a professor at a University, who spoke there as well. All and all, it was a very well organized function, though extremely sparsely attended.

I have joined more Pakistani IT organizations than I can name or remember (and an odd Indian IT organization also). All of them start up with a really nice website, and a real good core team. However, somewhere along the line, people run out of time, the motivation level goes down, and things tend to slow down. Websites go out of date. Functions are advertised that were done and over with months ago. Parts under construction remain under construction forever. So on and so forth.

I think Chowk is one of the only Pakistani sites that refreshes itself on a regular basis. This is because Chowk seems to have hit upon a good, ``business model.`` Most of the input is from viewers, not from the people running the site.

This is not to say that the efforts of the people running the other sites should not be appreciated. They definitely put in a lot of effort. But it is next to impossible to run a volunteer site forever on a model in which the whole site depends on the efforts of the few people running it. Some sort of a model needs to be developed in which the people visiting the site actually have something to gain from it on a daily basis, or can input something into it on a regular basis (like Chowk). Marketing of the site is also a big part.

The classic example of a successful non-profit IT organization is TiE; The Indus Entreprenuer (though more and more commonly being referred to as The Indian Entrepreneur, since 90% of the desi IT entrepreneurs in the US are Indian). They have set it up in a manner in which both the participants (looking for money) and the organizers (looking to invest) have an interest in the organization. Pakistanis have set up something similar called OPEN-US (www.open-us.org). The later is still a fledgling organization.

Iopwe is an excellent idea. And the people running it deserve a great amount of credit. A suggestion would be for you guys (or girls, in this case) to attempt to hook up with some other major organization with heavy pockets (like TiE, maybe Open-US, or the ministry of S&T (I can get you in touch with an odd lady or two there, if you want, in case you already don`t know someone there)).

As far as the Pakistani women participating in IT or any other kind of T; I would have to say their performance is quite poor (I am talking about the ones who make it to the USA, here). I have met a few who are extraordinarily motivated, but way too many who, despite having all the resources, just don`t care. In my opinion, Pakistani guys, proportionately, participate at the same level as Indians in the US IT industry. However, Indian girls are way way ahead of Pakistani girls. It really has nothing to do with opportunity or upbringing. I have met so many Indian girls who come to the USA after marraige, with minimal educational qualifications, and from very humble backgrounds. Yet within a year, they are in community colleges studying Java and what not. Within two to three years, they have jobs alongside their husbands. The number of Pakistani girls I have met who attempt anything like that is microscopic. Most of them come from wealthier backgrounds than the Indian girls, yet don`t even bother to set foot in any kind of college once they get here, after marrying their well-off husbands. They are quite happy with their coffee parties. I have seen way too many cases of this to not be convinced that in case of the affluent Pakistani girls, living in America, its laziness and an attitude problem, and not lack of opportunity.

While it is their right to decide what they want to do with their lives, they definitely should not complain about the condition of Pakistani women. Since they themselves are not bothering to enhance their own education and skills, what to talk of setting examples for less fortunate Pakistani girls.

I am quite convinced, after some research (talking to friends), the success of the Indian entrepreneurship in Silicon Valley is not due to the Indian guys, but due to their Indian wives. While one spouse is out taking risks and starting a business, the other spouse has the education, skills and confidence to support the family.

In any case, iopwe is definitely a good first step in this direction. A place where at least the motivated Pakistani girls can get together. My two cents: change the business model somewhat, and link up with a major Pakistani IT organization. Most importantly, try to get the Pakistani-American housewives (specially the ones without kids) to emulate their community college-attending lady friends from across the border. Otherwise the motivated Pakistani ladies, like yourself, who have joined this organization, will remain drowned amongst the unmotivated ones, who constitute the overwhelming majority, here in the US.

Best of luck.

Romair:

It brings me heartiest felicity to know that you were able to attend the function. I could not make it due to pending engagements and felt really bad. I have been affiliated with the group since it was a year or so old. Led it till it was almost 5.0 years old [Kind of nurtured and took care of it for 3.5 years till it learnt to stand, sit and walk]. So my attachments are very deep with even the name of the group.

The new website came into existance just last year. So it`s in its infancy. Personally, I think it is very effective as compared to what it was previously. The previous one was more like informational than interactive[rarely got updated]. It was my dream to have an interactive forum on our website. In that respect, the current team is doing a great job to have the site updated quite regularly.

We have accomplished a number of projects in the past and there are quite a few interesting things underway by the current regime.[Well, I always wanted to be a battalion leader in the army. It was a childhood dream. Kash! :-( Just to level set you on my usage of ``regime``]

On an ending note, each organization and group has its phases. Some times you are focusing more on the work you are doing than the efforts you are putting in publicity or marketing. Sometimes, it is not the priority. Remember it is all volunatry work. Let me ask you something - the kind of propaganda we hear sitting in the West about Pakistan and the way women are treated there - Can you even think of that country producing such independent women who are out in the world in science and technology? The very existance of this dynamic group portrays a positive image of our country. And that`s how I always look at it. It gives me a deep sense of pride! I used to send my newsletters to all my American Friends - just to let them know of our existance and the thought process.

Personally, I have invested few very precious years of my life, aside from my very hectic work schedule, in organizing and developing the group. One of my friends mother used to really get ticked off to see me[the focused one]and her daughter spending hours planning and strategizing about the group and its organization. Whenever I would visit her, she will say in an admonishing tone, ``Jinna` Waqt Tussee` Iss Group Noo Organize Kuran Wich Suraf Keeta Aai` Innaa Tussee Agar Upnae` Uttae` Dhiyaan Ditta Honda Tae` Toadeeyaan Shadiyaan Kuddo Deeyan Ho Jaandiyaan.`` I used to love her way of saying that. It was an admonishing note, but concerned in a cute way. It used to make us burst into laughter. Mothers... Mothers... Mothers.

In short, there is some life long investment here in the creation and development of this group. I am very glad to hear that you are part of the team :-)

Welcome, Comrade!

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jay #62: The IT revolution in India is definitely quite impressive. I have hired and recommended the hiring of quite a few Indian IT people myself; some straight out of India. This progress has little to do with any structure put up in India, and more to do with the number of IT graduates produced by India. There are private individuals in Pakistan who own structures like the one you have described. Physical structures are never an accurate description of the state of a society.

However IT progress alone does not define a country. A country is defined by the views of its people. And as long as their are people in India with similar views as yours, I do not think Pakistan has too much too worry about. In fact it is people with such views within India who, in my opinion, are Pakistan`s greatest asset.

The more I read your remarks, the more my admiration for Jinnah increases. He was a man with a great amount of foresight.

Zahra #64: ``You should try to submit that in the ``Announcements Section`` as well......

``If you are feeling uncomfortable posting the message on a women`s forum - that is something else. In that case, I will be more than glad to take over :-)``

Actually, I did not post the message on the iopwe forum myself. It was posted by the person who sent it to me. He posted it there, before he sent it to me. I will contact him and ask him what he did with it.

As far as feeling uncomfortable posting a message on a women`s forum, I would have to say quite the contrary. Both my friend, his wife, and I are member`s of iopwe (we attended a function, paid some money, and were told we were members in some sort of a capacity; I am not quite sure which capacity). However, like nearly all Pakistani technical organizations (contrary to popular beliefs, there are quite a few now, popping up all over the place), the iopwe website has been stagnant forever. These organizations tend to start with a lot of enthusiasm, get going pretty quickly, reach a plateau and then freeze (at least their websites).

Hopefully, you will see the message in a day or two.

Re:Reply #: 62

jay

``Next to the IT park is a marble/sandstone granite structure, new, resembling some grant palace of the yester years, and that is Cardiac and Nuerology hospital by Satya sai baba. All of the treatments are free, there are no papers, fully computerised, it is a paperless, cashless hospital. The force behind it is Sai baba,...``

This is just between me and Jay,so others need not respond. Jay, i visited Puttaparthi,the holy place where Sai baba lives and was wonderstruck by the spiritual aura that emanated from him and felt very blessed. There is also a superspeciality hospital at Puttaparthi which among other things performs free Cardiac Bypass operations (i am told 2 to 3 per day). Highly qualified doctors from U.S and other places volunteer their services.

regards,

sridhar

Romair:

I never saw the message on the bulletin board. Where did you see it? Also, I am on the mailing list so never got to see it there as well. Are we talking about the same group?

International Organization of Pakistani Women Engineers[IOPWE]

You should try to submit that in the ``Announcements Section`` as well.

Well, I am an active member. I can do all the stuff that I am telling you on my own too, but I won`t. I think as you introduced it, therefore U should be the torchbearer :-)

If you are feeling uncomfortable posting the message on a women`s forum - that is something else. In that case, I will be more than glad to take over :-)

On a serious note: the number that will respond all depends on people`s personal motivation.

How many men are involved in country-development activities? All? Few? Many? Some? 50%? 35%?

PS: I have participated in quite a few brain-storming sessions at the NY-Consulate and I can tell you few observations if you`ll be interested to know.

Later.

Zahra #58: Somenoe already put it up on iopwe.org.

I am waiting to see how much response these requests get from affluent Pakistani women. That will be a good indication of whether Pakistani women just complain about the condition of other Pakistani women, or whether they are actually willing to do anything about it.

Isa,

IT, Learning from india.

Any planner of IT in pakistan should visit bangalore, the IT park near White field in bangalore. It is a towering glass and aluminium structure, manicured gardens, better than many I have seen in other countries, a temple of modern india, as nehrue would have called. The IT park is a tribute to the technology, modernity and everything `rational`.

Next to the IT park is a marble/sandstone granite structure, new, resembling some grant palace of the yester years, and that is Cardiac and Nuerology hospital by Satya sai baba. All of the treatments are free, there are no papers, fully computerised, it is a paperless, cashless hospital. The force behind it is Sai baba, the god, who used make ash out of nowhere, the most `irrational`. The two exist side by side, the rational and the irrational, the scientific and the magical, the profound and the absurd.

So, what shall we have next to the 7 IT unis in pakistan, madrassa, jihadic schools where the youg study like automatoms, and at the ripe age of sixteen, with a name change to Abu xyz, a few rdx tied to the chest, seek death where ever it comes, on condition that as he takes the one way trip to heaven, a few kafirs fall to the hell.

Profoud and the profane, till me which is profane.

regards

jay

AAmir 55,

Let us be clear, I do not remember casting a value judgement on honour killing, I always asked the legal mechanism of implementation, what charecterises honour killing and who is the arbiter of it. If pakistan wants to have that system, like killing for self defence, so be it. What is of interest to me is the legal premise and the legal identification of it. I do remeber, several pakistanis including several women were in support of honour killing and that famous incident in the office of Asma jahangir was executed by the mother, a qualified doctor. Look I have no problems with honour killings and it could have several beneficial effects, definitely a sense of power of the judge and the executioner.

Female child killing is rare in india, but more prevalent is the neglect and death resulting from lack of medicene and timely care. In a land of vegetarians, with no ready access to guns like in pakistan, killing has to be a primitive close quarters affair, which most indians dont have the gall. I note that pakistanis are more advanced in this, keep it up.

Most of your post was a defence of honour killing, which to say the least was unnecessary. But if you care to divulge the details, is it authorised by some one, can it be a spur of the moment, can a man also be executed for bringing dishonour. The last one I have a personal stake, I am still alive after several decades after marrying a non-hindu which was a dis-honour to the family. Thank god, what ever be thy name, for being a non pakistani, or is that thanks mis placed.

regards and best wishes.

jay