Is IT the Panacea?

Friends:

Zahra 31 has extended very well the ideas I highlight in my article. Thanks. With 70-80 % of our population still in our villages it is paramount that most development activity be geared to benefit this large group. IT in agriculture is a very fruitful area & I have read of some success stories from India about this. It would be great to encourage such activity in Pakistan.

I am not against e-commerce nor am I unaware of its potential advantages. Our priorities need to elsewhere -- making money will come out of realising those goals, and not the other way around. We need practical education that attends to the real needs and creates productive jobs in our country and by implication in South Asia.

On a slightly different note, I am puzzled by the total lack of focus of some `discussants`. Could a separate area be created on CHOWK to cater for their special needs.

Isa Daudpota

Friends:

Zahra 31 has extended very well the ideas I highlight in my article. Thanks. With 70-80 % of our population still in our villages it is paramount that most development activity be geared to benefit this large group. IT in agriculture is a very fruitful area & I have read of some success stories from India about this. It would be great to encourage such activity in Pakistan.

I am not against e-commerce nor am I unaware of its potential advantages. Our priorities need to elsewhere -- making money will come out of realising those goals, and not the other way around. We need practical education that attends to the real needs and creates productive jobs in our country and by implication in South Asia.

On a slightly different note, I am puzzled by the total lack of focus of some `discussants`. Could a separate area be created on CHOWK to cater for their special needs.

Isa Daudpota

demystifying the - ``why are there more Indians than Pakistanis in IT related fields???``

less beef and more bhaajjii on the brain : )

aicha

Romair:

Each human being has their own course of action for their life. Some live day by day, whereas some plan ahead. Some are short term planners, whereas others are long term planners. It`s an individual`s perception. Even in one house, all siblings do not think the same way; expecting all men and women to be motivated by the same idea has pretty slim chances in that regard.

Both of us generally agree on certain points. But I read something again and again in your posts. Well-off/Rich/Affluent. These words are sounding pretty shallow after your first post. I think it is the caliber of a person that makes them choose a route and make their mark than their worldly assets. Yes, the worldly assets may assist in a way, but it`s the ``inside`` that has to have the sense of motivation and not the material things. I can see why you used the words again and again -to illustrate your point on financial independence and the privileged class. The interesting thing about this country is that in order to be somewhere you have to work hard on your own and you have to put your best foot forward. Kind of always on high-alert! Sometimes this rut can get on one`s nerves, but other times it may serve as one of the goals of one`s life.

I wanted to conclude this informative discussion with some ending thought; but I guess I got carried away.

On an ending note, I took away some good points from this discussion and will suggest a few thought. Now read them as they appear on the screen and discard them if they are not appealing. Do not come back and start ripping them apart, please! You have the Aquarian`s tendencies! I may or may not be right. Whatever! Coming to the burning point:

- Human beings evolve with time and they should. The evolution is indicative of +ive growth pattern. It`s like checking out CISCO`s Stock Performance. When CICSO`s curve rises and the stock-splits, there is :-)))) and when it comes down, there is a :-(((( !

But what may be evolution to me and you, may not hold a penny`s worth for a third person. Whereas what may be important to them, may mean nothing to us.

In short, one can influence people; but one cannot change the outlook of anyone. Be it a wife, a husband, a teen-ager, a sibling, a parent...an ulloo, a gadha whatever!

I was just setting the stage for my forth-coming suggestion :-)

- I think all these enlightened and affluent men in your vicinity should be persuaded to spend the money that they wished to spend on their wives` education on someone else`s education back home, who may do something with that knowledge and awareness - for whom it may be a roadmap to Eldorado. Otherwise, it will be a waste. And you do not have to be a millionaire or a billionaire or a zillionaire to achieve such goals, you should have the flame inside. And just do the ``prathana`` for that flame, to keep burning forever!

Glad to exchange some thoughts with you on this board.

Take Care!

Romair,

Your observations re Pakistani women in the US are interesting. In my personal experience (in the medical field) I`ve come across very few Pakistani female doctors.

In medical college, about 40% of my class comprised of women. To tell you the truth they were much better students than the men. I found them much more studious & concientious than men. There were quite a few muslim women in my class too.

Perhaps this may sound sexist, but I feel women make much better doctors than men. They are more nurturing & empathetic. Unfortunately, patients (including women) seem to have more confidence in male doctors--even in a ``liberated`` society like the US.

When I had gone back to India about 5 yrs ago, I met a lot of my classmates during a reunion. I was quite dissapointed that most of the women who graduated with me were either practising part time or had taken academic positions as lecturers & professors.

I cant blame them. I think Indian society insists that they become homemakers first & their careers come secondary to their husbands`. Its a shame because most of these women have in laws & servants who can relieve them of the duties of a homemaker. Personally, its a waste of their talent.

This fact hit home too. My younger brother is a family practitioner in Bombay & is married to one of his classmates in medical school. My SIL has outperformed him in every exam in medical school. She has better people skills & in essense I would rather be her patient than my brother`s. Obviously, I didnt mention this blatant fact to him:)

He has taken over my father`s practice & she works parttime in a municipal free medical clinic. I asked him why he doesnt expand his practice & take her on as a full time partner? It seemed like a very innocent & logical question. I was taken aback when he shot back curtly ``she doesnt have time!`` BULL!! Both my parents are at home & we have servants. They only have one kid. What the heck role does she have as a homemaker? Oh well, I didnt want to start a fight by playing shrink & commenting about his insecurity & inferiority complex:)

I guess I dont have the right to stand in judgement. My wife is my office manager. All I have to concentrate on is the clinical aspect of my practice. She handles all the administrative & business aspects. Let me tell you, running a practice is no different than running a small business. Nobody teaches doctors how to run a private practice in medical school or residency. We go into practice very naievely & then realise its better to have a good office manager than a partner from Harvard medical school to be financially successful.

My dear wife, out of sheer necessity, had to teach herself medical billing, policy & procedures of insurance companies etc etc & now runs my practice like a well oiled machine. My collegues are not envious of my clinical skills; but they are very envious that my wife is the secret of my success. Without her, I`m a fish out of water.

Now, if my wife (who is obviously smarter than me) was a doctor & she was a fellow partner--how would I feel? Would I feel insecure? Would it adversely effect my ego? To tell you the truth, I dont have the guts to analyse myself because I`m too afraid of my conclusions:))

Zahra #124: ``Somehow, I have some doubts. If they were that enlightened, you won`t be complaining about their wives here``

Since you do not know the people I am talking about, you have two choices: you can take my word for it. Or you can disregard my word, in which case, you should also disregard everything else I have written.

There are actually quite a few Pakistanis guys who are more than willing to support the wives in their education and careers. I would say amongst the professional Pakistanis I have come across ( not only amongst my close friends) in the US, this group is in the majority. However, their wives have to take some initiative on their own first, before they ask for support from their husbands.

``Personally, I do not care what these wives do. Excuse my indifference. I am far more interested in the well-being of women back home.``

The only way, ``women back home`` will have the chance to progress is if well-off women here and in Pakistan take some initiative and end up as role models in influential positions. Until that happens, apart from the lives of the one odd women back home who gets a scholarship, nothing major is going to change.

``Majority of women, who come to the US after their medicine or engineering, will pursue their careers unless they are married to Pagal Ulloos[Mad Owls]!``

This is true. But how many Pakistani women in the USA have degrees in medicine and engineering. An overwhelming majority seems to come here after completing their B.A., etc. Until this overwhelming majority decides to join the mainstream, the doctors and engineers will not be able to do too much on their own. There just aren`t enough of them.

And an owl is generally regarded as oneof the most intelligent birds in America. It is only in Pakistan, that the owl is considered stupid.

``If your comment was a criticism towards the guest speakers who were invited, I am sorry I was not in the loop at all. And I think you should not hammer on that any more.``

Actually, my comment was not a criticism regarding the speakers. The speakers did a pretty good job. My comment was a criticism of the Pakistani women who did not show up to the function. And the fact that their aren`t any qualified Pakistani women available to speak. If I, a non-woman, could pay the money and take the time to show up for this function, then don`t you think many of the thousands of Pakistani well-off women in Silicon Valley could have shown up for this function. Who stopped them from showing up? Did their husbands tie them up or lock them in the bathroom? I have seen way too many of them line up, along with myself, to buy tickets to Junoon and Daler Mehndi concerts, when these singers visit Silicon Valley. Nothing wrong with that, but why don`t they show an equal interest on this side, as well.

They simple reason is that very few of them, despite having all the opportunity in the world, really care about technology, furthuring their abilities, getting into positions where they can help women in Pakistan, etc. The only ones who were present in the function were the ones from iopwe. However, to the best of my knowledge, this function was open to all men and women.

If out of the thousands of Pakistanis girls and women in Silicon Valley, all of whom are very well-off with well educated husbands, only ten (and seven out of these ten were themselves members of the organization that organized the function) bothered to attend this function, then don`t you think it is a pretty good indication that these women do not take interest. And until these well-off Pakistani women start taking interest as a huge group, I don`t think too much can be done for the not so well off Pakistani women. This, of course, does not mean that the few women who are making efforts should not be encouraged.

``I am no one to go and tell them what to do and how to do; I cannot impose my vision on someone and ask them to adopt that as theirs!``

I am not quite sure where you got the idea that I was requesting you to personally target these women. I was just pointing out the problem. Since you do represent an organization that is trying to solve these problems, and you had yourself requested my opinion (I did not volunteer it), hence I gave it to you, and pointed out an area which I felt needed to be highlighted.

Romair:

[I have found almost all of them to be very enlightened. If they were any more enlightened they would turn into light bulbs.]

- Interesting! I hope our interpretation of the word ``enlightened`` is along the same lines. Somehow, I have some doubts. If they were that enlightened, you won`t be complaining about their wives here :-)!

[They are far better husbands than their American colleagues. ]

- Over Sensitive and Defensive! Aren`t we? :-)


[Nearly every single one of the ones I know personally would be more than happy if his wife were to study furthur and pursue careers (provided it didn`t effect the upbringing of the kids). Many have actually encouraged their wives along these lines, if for no other reason, then because the guys wanted to pursue IT entrepreneurship, and needed someone to support the family for a year or so.]

- What happened to the power of persuasion? the enlightenment factor? the turram-khans? On a serious note, I think that is between these guys and their wives. No one can come and tell them what to do with their lives. Having a cousin in your area, who has gone through the same path; I know very well what you are talking about. He also went into entrepreneurship and his wife, an IT Consultant, opted to stay home for sometime as the kids were too young. Personal Decisions!

[It is the wives of these guys that I was refering to. Not women in Pakistan in general. I do not have much info on women in Pakistan, in general.]

- Personally, I do not care what these wives do. Excuse my indifference. I am far more interested in the well-being of women back home. That`s far more important to me than these women who are not working for some personal family reasons or lack of ambition or whatever. That`s one area that you`ve emphasized. And I am open to hearing your perspective. Majority of women, who come to the US after their medicine or engineering, will pursue their careers unless they are married to Pagal Ulloos[Mad Owls]! Trust me, there are certain cases like that as well :-)


[It is basically tough to pursue an education and a career. That is why only determined people can do it, even though many others get the opportunity. I cannot think of any advantage your fellow members in iopwe had over these girls (who constitute the majority of the Pakistani female population in the US). However, why did the members of iopwe pursue careers, but these girls didn`t?]

- The focus of our discussion is very different! Although your suggestion is reasonable, but it is geared towards the Pakistani Community in your vicinity. The current team is already in the process of including more women from the area in the network. You should realize that it is an international network. The members who are in Cali. represent a very little % of the overall membership.

[A majority of Pakistani girls, in Pakistan, do fall into the category you have mentioned, i.e lack of opportunity, lack of role models (very important), lack of encouragement, lack of support, etc. However, the ones who have made it to the USA, and have all the opportunities of the world at their feet, and still do not attempt to become role models, then they have no right to complain about the condition of women in Pakistan.]


- I agree as well as disagree. I have come across many newly married young women who despite having the urge to go for higher studies cannot pursue that. Their husbands are the traditional ones, who don`t believe in assisting the wives at home, and as a result the whole burden lies on the women. The woman, being a wise one, does not want to kill herself - working at home[like a maid] and rushing outside as well. So she chooses her comfort and mental stability over her ambitions(if any).


[If I want to uplift the standard of living of the average Pakistani, should I attempt to put myself in the position where I can do something about it, or should I enjoy myself, and hope someone from Iran or India is going to do it?]

- Thanks for humming the same tune!

If your comment was a criticism towards the guest speakers who were invited, I am sorry I was not in the loop at all. And I think you should not hammer on that any more. The intent was to discuss different career options in that forum and that was accomplished. Also, as many members live all over the world, it`s really hard to fly them for a one day event. That takes us back to my point - send me the list of the people who should be invited and I will forward it.

- Personally[that`s my personal opinion only] I simply do not care about those who are settled here and are lacking in ambition and drive. It`s the problem of these women and the men who got married to them or vice versa. These men better inculcate the sense among their wives, if they have any power of persuasion[if and only if]. I`d rather do something for women back home. It would be far more important to me to support a young woman who wants to pursue higher studies and cannot do so due to financial reasons in Patoki or District Gujrat or some little qasba than to motivate someone sitting in California waiting for an angel to land in her window and give her a sermon. Personally, that`s not my area of interest! Again, that`s my own way of channelizing my energies in the direction I want to. Personal Preference!

``The Pakistani men certainly aren`t going to do it. ``

- I completely agree. They are only out there to show their phoon phaan. If they were any Laiq then the country would have been in a better state!


[So while these 5% of the women may not be the cause of the problems for the women in Pakistan, very few of them, despite having the opportunity, have attempted to become the solution. In fact, the hardest working women in Pakistan are the poor women who work in the fields and as servants. Who gave them the ambition or the confidence, or self-worth? Necessity demanded it and they took on the challenge.]

- Now this is an ideal case of switching back and forth. This was exactly, where, I lost my cool composure earlier under another article. This switching back and forth to substantiate your response to one and only one argument is very annoying and irritating! You started with one case and issue and now have jumped to another that you claimed to have no clue about. If I were you, I will stick with that claim.

[Nearly every single one of my Pakistani colleagues here in the US would be more than happy if his wife furthured her education. Many of them would jump for joy. Many have tried to encourage their wives. Yet very few, probably less than 10%, of their wives attempt to pursue anything. The common factor amongst the ones who do pursue something is ambition and the will to do hard work, not anything else; not even their living standard in Pakistan.]

- Well, that`s a fair reason. I have met quite a few Pakistani guys who do not want to do well in life and are comfortable with where they are. Their spouses have no problem with that either. I am no one to go and tell them what to do and how to do; I cannot impose my vision on someone and ask them to adopt that as theirs! Can you? In fact, should you ? Don`t give me the ``role-model`` argument. That`s not applicable here. The kind of flow you have, you are prone to do that. Also, the Pakistanis in California are not the representative of Pakistani Community in the US. Yes, they are rep. of Pakistanis in their area only!


Take Care.

Rshridhar,

{{Is this fictitious Dr Shah a cardiologist practising in Florida? If he is, I think i know him}}

I live in a small town in Michigan. The story is true, the name Dr Shah is fictitious.

Rgds

romair,

quite an expected reply from you. the man of details and references and proofs suddenly expects to be taken at face value. let me just say that an honest man has nothing to hide.
i can find more holes in your clarification as well. a classic case of inventing more to cover up one. but i won`t.

[...you can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts...]
i attribute that to your superior interpersonal skills.

[...you could have concentrated on either of these three, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one...]
and pray, what would be the point of concentrating on points on which we might be in agreeement? besides, on earlier occasions you have argued that indians are no better than the pakistanis or the chinese or the russians as far as technical abilities in IT go and that indians are just more in numbers and hence have all the visibility. you simply change your position to suit a particular post at a particular time.

i think a lot of pakistanis here would have been greatly relieved if you actually were a 12 year old islamabadi!

Romair:

For the time being, please stick to the pertinent points! Rest assured, I won`t let the ``controversial points`` escape that easily.

later,

It is unfortunate that this thread is not on the main board any longer, since this is developing into an interesting discussion. Maybe we should attempt to hijack one of the poetry threads on the main board, with IT related topics:-)

Zahra #115: ``You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance.``

Could you let me know the contradictions.

Shankar #116: ``Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer).``

Don`t worry about misunderstandings. I did not think that you had refered to me in any kind of a derogatory manner. I was just attempting to answer your questions, and figure out why you felt that many Pakistanis consider Indians to be village-based. Also, I was attempting to clarify that my comparisons were between Indians and Pakistanis from comparable backgrounds.

``A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts.``

It has been my experience that when a replier (Pakistani or Indian) resorts to personal attacks towards an individual, it is a good indication that the replier has run out of information, but is unwilling to admit it. The replier has no leg to stand on, and is, at that point, resorting to his/her last line of defense, i.e. personal attacks. That is a good time to realize that such a person has nothing more to offer, and one should just ignore his/her comments. I get personally attacked by a lot of Indians, and quite a few Pakistanis as well. I generally ignore them, because, to me, its just a sign that these guys have basically lost the argument, but have too big of an ego to admit it.

So I would suggest you ignore the Pakistanis who make derogatory personal comments about Indians, also. Otherwise, you will either end up abandoning Chowk, or you will get so worked up that you will end up on your own psychiatrist`s chair :-) No website or interaction is important enough to even microscopically alter one`s emotional state. And do not worry about offending me. I am not easily offended, both intentionally or unintentionally. The fact that you and I are interacting should be enough of an indication that we have so far not offended each other.

dost-mittar #117: ``Could it be that we have here a case of what they call `pseudo correlation` in statistics, that is to say, you are confusing regional with national traits?``

This is probably quite accurate. I think the answer is something along these lines.

Most of the Pakistanis in the US IT industry actually tend to be from Karachi and not Punjab. I would guess there are more Pakistanis in Silicon Valley from Karachi, then from the rest of Pakistan combined (just an educated guess). I think 80% or so of the Pakistani IT companies are in Karachi. The culture of all of Pakistan is however greatly influenced by Punjab, due to its large population. So perhaps Pakistanis tend to socially slide towards a Punjab-centric society. While maybe Indians, as a whole, at least in IT, tend to slide towards a South-Indian centric society. I don`t know. Just a guess.

concerned #114: ``yaar, you really crack me up!

so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!``

First of all, I find it interesting, perhaps an honor, that you follow my posts so closely. You can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts.

Just to clarify your minsunderstandings: Employers did not reject the Indians, nor the Pakistanis. Since we were graduate students, all of us were interviewing for jobs while we were studying. It is a always a good idea to do so, since the potential employers can then pay for the remaining tuition. So while we were students, I got hired before the Indian students, even though I was a semester or so behind them in academic work. All of them (apart from one or two who also were hired as students), got hired immediately after graduation, or within a few months after graduation.

I never stated that I was, ``smarter`` than any of the Indians. In fact, I attempted to indicate exactly the opposite.

``and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated.``

Is there any particular reason, why are you refering to Indians as nerds? In my replies, I never used this term.

Very very few IT graduates in the US go begging for jobs. Almost all of the ones with me in college were hired immediately after graduation. However, only a few of them were hired in full-time positions before graduation. Most were hired as part-time interns, before graduation.

``can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college?``

No I cannot. Because it is none of your business. For all you, know I could be a twelve year old kid sitting in Islamabad who has fabricated all this information. And I am not going to spend the time in clarifying this, nor give you the right to doubt my integrity. Either believe what I am saying about myself at face value, or do not believe it. That is up to you. It doesn`t make any difference to me.

I hope the above answers your questions. I mentioned two areas in which I felt Indians excelled (programming and entrepreneurship) in comparsion to Pakistanis, and one area (people-related areas) in which I felt Pakistanis excelled in comparison to Indians. You could have concentrated on either of these three years, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one in which I showed Pakistanis is favorable light. If it makes you feel any better you can completely ignore what I stated in my previous replies, and consider Indians to be superior, in every area, to Pakistanis and to the rest of the world. I will not lose any sleep over it.

Re: Reply #: 112

shankar Sir,

Is this fictitious Dr Shah a cardiologist practising in Florida? If he is, I think i know him.

sridhar

Umairr,

Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer). I DONT think YOU are an arrogant snob. In fact, I`m impressed that you would interview & hire many Indians & you are willing to put aside any personal political/humanitarian bais as you do so. Its especially remarkable, since you are a half Kashmiri & have a personal & genuine complaint about what is happening in your native land.

Sometime ago, (I think it was sac) who published an article in Chowk about India`s IT industry. A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts. If I`m not mistaken, thats where the ``heeng smelling`` cliche started.

I realise there are bigots in every country. The vast majority of Pakistani posters on Chowk are decent, moderate & fair. I made a special reference to ``THOSE`` Pakistanis who feel...

Eventhough I`m a shrink, I`m just as neurotic as any of you.. While I laugh at those who insult me personally, it hurts when my countrymen/women are collectively insulted by prejudiced Pakistanis. There are very few things that we Indians are genuinely proud of; IT is one of them. Heck, our prowess may not be as great as the American IT industry. However, thats one of the few things other Asian countries admire about us; including Pakistanis (grudgingly, perhaps).

Romair:

I will get back to your questions as well as interesting observations later on. You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance. I understand that they were written in good faith and I want to read them in the same stride. It`s just that I want to be very careful in scrutanizing them, therefore I will address them later!

In the meantime, if you have any suggestions or a list of women in your area:

- who were not at IOPWE`s event and should have been there

or

- who are active in the community and were not aware of the gathering

or

- who can add a lot due to their experience and it would be great to have them on board

or

- you have friends whose wives are more involved in hulla-gulla than substantive objectives in life and you would like them to be at this event

or
.......
.......
.......


Please share that information with me on Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com

There will be an open house in the near future[I guess this month]. I think it will be great if you can provide the requested information. I will make sure that an invite is sent to them and we can tap into those indivs/resources.

PS: If you`d like to be at the gathering yourself, please send thy email address as well.

PS1: Thanks in advance for your sincere efforts, constructive criticism and thoughtful suggestions.

later,

romair,

[...All the Indians finished their academic program, with equal or higher grades than me, a couple of semesters before I did. However, I got a job before any of them did. In fact their was another Pakistani with me, and he got a job quite quickly also. Probably because both of us did quite a bit better than the Indian graduates in interviews...]

yaar, you really crack me up!
so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!

and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated. eventually, the nerds also got jobs but only after smarter pakistanis had been hired. and then the nerds struggled in the management queue while you climbed the ladder with remarkable ease!

can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college? which company did the indian guys work for?

looking forward to the info.

shankar #112: It is quite obvious that one cannot compare a person who has made it to the USA from a village in Pakistan to someone who has made it to the USA from Bombay or Banglore. And vice-versa. When I made a comparison between the areas in which Indians and Pakistanis and Americans were successful in the USA in IT, I was attempting to do so amongst people from equal backgrounds, i.e. comparing a Pakistani guy from Lahore with an Indian guy from Bombay, and an Indian guy from a village with a Pakistani guy from a village.

If we assume that Pakistanis and Indians enjoy an equal standard of living in Pakistan and India respectively, then one would have to assume that there are quite a few Pakistani success stories in the US (perhaps proportionately equal) which fall into the category of, ``low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts,`` as well. And a proportionately equal no. of Indians who come from big urban centers. So I am basing my comparisons on people who had comparative backgrounds in India and Pakisan, i.e. village educated Indians with village educated Pakistanis with village educated Americans. And the same for urban educated Pakistanis, Indians, and Americans.

And based on my experience of hiring and interviewing many candidates for start-up software companies, as well as my work experience, though not based on any scientific study, I have reached the following order of merit:

Software Programming: 1) Indians 2) Pakistanis 3) Americans

Entreprenuership: 1) Indians 2) Americans/Pakistanis (tied)

Management/People related jobs 1) Americans 2) Pakistanis 3) Indians

I don`t know how scientifically accurate this maybe, however I have read similar articles in magazines like Fortune. And I have experienced it too often personally to not be convinced of it. I don`t know the reasons behind this. Maybe the average Pakistani IT graduate does not like programming (I know Americans don`t). Maybe the average Indian graduate thinks moving up the management ranks is a waste of time, and immediately jumps to entrepreneurship. Or maybe there are certain factors in their respective societies and educational systems (Indian, Pakistani, American) that strengthen one aspect of their personalities an weaken other aspects. Or maybe my analysis is completely off the mark. Again I am comparing the villagers to the villagers and the urbanites with the urbanites.

Amongst my graduating class, most of the Indians were from major urban cities (you seemed to have assumed, for some reason, that they were from villages). Considering the fact that at the time of my graduation, IT had not even touched Pakistan, and was already well into India, in terms of IT urbanness, us Pakistani students were villagers in comparison to the Indians. I don`t think any of the Indians were any more intelligent than I. Yet all of them finished their degrees exactly on schedule, while most of us Pakistanis were a couple of semesters late. Almost all the Indians received equal or higher grades than I did. One could say they were technically more sound than I, and will probably write more papers and books than me. Yet I got a job before they did. And I have moved up management ranks faster than them. Yet, they probably will, if they already haven`t, start IT companies well before me. The American students in our group will probably avoid the engineering dept of companies, all together. They will start companies slower than Indians, but will move up the management ranks faster than Indians or Pakistanis. I don`t know why, but I have noticed this trend way too often.

On a side psycho-analytical note: When I mentioned that Pakistanis tended to be more confident in social dealings than Indians, you automatically assumed two things:

1) ``Pakistanis self confidently & arrogantly dissmissing Indians as low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts.`` I didn`t mention this anywhere. I just stated that Pakistanis could be self-confident to the point of being arrogant (with no reference to Indians). 2) Pakistanis in the US tend to be urbanites, while Indians tend to be villagers. Although, I never stated that either.

Is this an individual view, or is this view consciously or sub-consciously held by Indians regarding how Pakistanis view them? Or am I misreading your comments. Looking forward to your expert opinion.

Romair,

#110

Your observations are very interesting & probably true. I`m not an expert at this , BUT...OK, start getting scared...:)

When I read the article in businessweek about the ``whiz kids`` from India, most of IIT graduates who were mentioned in the article were in very important MANAGEMENT positions in some of the top US corporations. In other words, their strong background from academic institutions like IITs gave them very important skills in management. Undoubtedly, most of them took MBAs in the US studies.

Most Indians who have come to the US come from extremely humble backgrounds. They may understand english, but are hesitant & diffident to converse with Americans because of their very thick & pronounced accents. Therefore they tend to become very clannish & stick with their fellow Indians.

Even among them, they gravitate towards their own ``mother tongues``. For instance, N.Indians & S.Indians tend to have their own ``associations``. N.Indians are much closer culturally to Pakistanis than to S. Indians. In small towns, which have fewer Indians, they have ``Indian associations``. In larger cities, there are so many Indians that they will form a ``telugu association``, ``gujerati association``, ``sikh association`` etc etc.

Let me share an interesting observation of Indians in a small town I practice medicine in. The town has a population of 60,000 people. If you take the surrounding rural countryside, the population is about 150,000. Out of this, the Indian population is about 300 (roughly). Most of these Indians are doctors or in the family of doctors. A small smattering of Indians are motel owners (Patels) & other small businessmen/women.

Indians started coming to this town roughly in the 80s. The first Indians here were doctors & their families. After 20 odd years, a third of the medical staff in the local hospital are Indians. The ``old timers`` in the Indian medical field (ie the first Indian doctors who came here in the 80s) tell me that they had to slog like dogs to make it . The local Americans (both American doctors & patients) viewed them with a lot of suspicion.

These Indians set up their practices & initially their only clientelle was uninsured, under insured, or public aid patients. These patients would come to Indian doctors because the American doctors did`nt want them. For instance, an Indian cardiologist (for the sake of anonymity, let me call him Dr Shah) who came here in 82 said that he was forced to practice ``solo`` because the Amercan cariologists (who had a thriving group practice) refused to have him join their group.

For a cardiologist to practice ``solo`` means he cant take a vacation (doesnt have anybody to cover for him). He had to be in town & BE AVAILABLE to his patients 24/7/365. He was willing to do that because he was perfectly content to live in a very modest house & drive a very modest car. To him, his standard of living was luxurious compared to the village in India, that he originated from. Then after 5 years or so, he convinced another Indian cardiologist to join him.

Today, the two of them have cornered the market! He`s just built a beautiful million dollar house (in BFE small town America!) & built a beautiful office building to accomodate their bustling practice. The American cardiologists are begging him to merge with their group. The latest scuttlebutt is that he`s agreed so long as the two original Indians are majority stockholders in that multimillion dollar generating corporation.

Dr Shah told me that when he was a kid growing up in a village in Andhra Pradesh (in the 50s & 60s), his house (more like a one room hutment), his house had no electicity, they had to walk half a mile to draw water from a well. He had to study for his high school final exam on the road side under a street lamp. Today he performs about 10 cardiac catheterisations & baloon angioplasties a day! He still has a very thick accent. I can barely understand his english--God knows how his patients can! However, his clientelle has changed. The local mayor, congressman & the sheriff are his patients!! Does he have an MBA?! Nah!!! He probably doesnt even know what an MBA means!

I can tell you success stories of all these Indian villagers, who have an MD after their name. Today, those 30% Indian doctors are controlling the local hospital. Several of them are appointed to the Board of directors, that runs the hospital. In the recent Medical Staff meeting, the doctors unanimously elected an Indian as Chief of Staff (eventhough 70% of the doctors are American!).

When this desi Chief of Staff was giving his acceptance speech in a very thick desi accent, I turned to an American doctor collegue (let me call him Dr Smith) & asked him ``why in the hell did you vote for this guy?``. Dr Smith replied, with a twinkle in his eyes & said `` I dont understand what the F he says, but he sure KNOWS what the F he`s talking about!!!``

Umairr, the bottom line is that I see many Pakistanis self confidently & arrogantly dissmissing Indians as low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts. Maybe there`s an element of truth in that. To those Pakistanis who hold that view, let me tell you guys one thing---in the national AAPI meetings, none other than the President of the US has been a keynote speaker!

LOW CLASS, HEENG SMELLING INDIAN CHUTS--ZINDABAD!!!

Romair

#87

My purpose of posting the article was not to start an argument. When I first read Mr. Gangule`s comments my feelings were exactly the same, as a matter of fact I almost sent him an e-mail congratulating him on ``living up to the expectations``. It is kind of amusing that Pakistanis have no problem with our IT policy, our American clients have no problem in dealing with our engineers, but our ``friends`` .... However in all fairness to Mr. Gangule, I have read some articles from him that were quite balanced. Read http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/sumit.htm

Several things I have noticed on this board that I would like to comment about.

1: Frankly speaking I am sick and tired of hearing that Pakistan is the second most corrupt country in the world. So I did a little research of my own. This was stated by ``Transparency International``, when they ran a sample of only 35 countries they found that Pakistan was the second most corrupt country, second only to Nigeria. However next year when they expanded the number of countries to over 70, Pakistan dropped down to somewhere in teens. As a matter of fact they found that both Russia and Indonesia were more corrupt then Pakistan (yet Indonesia had a per capita income of over $2600). This does not mean that we should be very proud just because we dropped down a few points on the corruption scale, for me even one rupee of corruption is one too many, but it only proves that the problem of corruption is common to most third and second world countries and that Pakistan in not unique in this respect.

2: Regarding the WSJ article I posted a couple of days ago, I agreed with Mr. Gangule that Pakistan did not invest in education as much as India did in 60s. Asia week publishes an annual list of best universities of Asia. There are three universities of Pakistan that make it to the list every year, these are GIK, NUST and SZABIST. If you notice all three of them were established in the last 10 years. What were we doing in the previous 40 years if we couldn`t establish a decent university. Yet we have taken the correct steps in last few years. Some say that 90s was a lost decade for Pakistan, well if Pakistan was able to create world class universities in last 10 years then all was not lost, our future generations will get rewards of these deeds. When I left Pakistan in mid 80s, there were only two universities in Karachi. The concept of private university did not exist, today in Karachi alone there are probably over 40 universities, agreed that not all are accredited by university grants commission, but I believe that market needs will eventually settle these problems too.

3: Your comments that Pakistanis are socially more active reminds me of a discussion I had with my foreign students adviser in college. She once told me that the problem with us (that is Pakistani`s, Irani`s and Arabs) is that you are smart people and you know it, thus you are over confident and you don`t put that much effort in your studies. On the other hand Orientals are hard working people, no matter how smart they really are.

rsihar #108: ``One cannot generalize from these observations unless similar observations are also shared by a large number of people.``

You are correct. I am only expressing my own opinion based on the experiences I have had. that is why I stated, ``My experience has been exactly the opposite,`` in my previous reply.

When I stated that I felt Pakistanis seem more self-confident in their personal dealings, I did not mean to imply they were more competent. I was implying that they are generally more extroverted and social. In terms of academics, in my experience, Indians seem to finish their academic programs quite a bit faster than Pakistanis, on the average. I was the last person to graduate from my class in graduate studies. There were a couple of Pakistanis and around eight or nine Indians in the group. All the Indians finished their academic program, with equal or higher grades than me, a couple of semesters before I did. However, I got a job before any of them did. In fact their was another Pakistani with me, and he got a job quite quickly also. Probably because both of us did quite a bit better than the Indian graduates in interviews.

But as you stated, it is mostly personal experience. I have however noticed this trend in Silicon Valley also. Indians tend to be better (or take more interest) at academic subjects like programming, while Pakistanis tend to be better (or take more interest) at people relating fields like tech support and management. Americans tend be completely in people relating fields, with only a minority concentrating on the academic related fields in IT.

Re:Reply #: 106

msarwar,

That was a thought provoking article that you posted on the site. No doubt indian bureuacracy and politicians have time and again put dampers on progress but i believe things are changing, though ever so slowly. India is at the point of completely deregulating VSNL (the telephonery). Recently,it completely deregulated license on consumer items but it took them 9 years to do so (the process was started in 1991).

sridhar

Re: Reply #: 104

``My experience has been exactly the opposite. I think Pakistanis are more aware of their self-worth than Indians. Pakistanis generally are more self-confident, to the extent of being arrogant and violent, in demanour and public dealings than Indians. Amongst males, proportionately, Pakistanis seem to be as successful as Indians in the US``.

Romair,

You have presented your personal observations in the above statements. One cannot generalize from these observations unless similar observations are also shared by a large number of people. I have a different experience to recount. While doing my residency in Pediatrics from one of the big hospitals in New York, i came in contact with many Pakistanis. Infact out of a total of about 20 residents in our program, there were 4 Pakistanis (about 7 or 8 Indians; the rest from Bangladesh,Nigeria,Iran and so on). I did not find the Pakistani residents more self-confident than the Indians to the extent of being arrogant and violent as you put it. One of them did so badly that he had to repeat one extra year. The other (who was a very good friend of mine)did fairly well. The other 2 Pakistani residents were women. One of them was quiet by nature but otherwise a very nice person. She was very religious and would often interrupt her work to say her Namaaz. The other woman was nothing much to talk about.

How about the Indians in the program? Out of the 7 or 8, 3 got fast-tracked (finishing their residency in 2 instead of 3 years). The rest (including myself)did fairly well. We all got into a good fellowship program. I found that the Americans value modesty and hardwork which some of my Indian colleagues in the program showed,thereby earning a good name. Some of them were already Pediatricians from India,having done their M.D but at no point became arrogant because of this added advantage. At the same time i never found them lacking in self-confidence. These are just my experiences. I am sure others in this forum may have similar or differing thoughts.

However,i agree with your last statement. Pakistani professionals seem to be as successful as their Indian counterparts. What they lack is the sheer number. India being a larger country with a much larger population and skilled work force sends a larger number of these men to USA. This in noway shows Pakistan in bad light.

sridhar

Zahra reply #103: Here are the answers to your question:

a)b)c) I don`t know

d) I do know. I cannot speak for everyone, but while I was in college, most of the guys around me were quite enlightened. Then again, I spent almost all my college years in Pakistan in military academies, so I cannot speak for the civilian college crowds. In the military, women (wives of other officers) are given quite a high status by everyone. And many of them were pursuing careers as teachers, doctors, etc. I have met the daughters of the older military officers, and most of them seem to be well-adjusted and have been given ample opportunity by their parents to pursue their education and, in many case, their careers.

I am quite familiar with the civilian Pakistani guys who study and work in Silcon Valley, however. I have hung around them for a long time now, and I have found almost all of them to be very enlightened. If they were any more enlightened they would turn into light bulbs. Most of them are self-made and very highly educated. They are far better husbands than their American colleagues. Nearly every single one of the ones I know personally would be more than happy if his wife were to study furthur and pursue careers (provided it didn`t effect the upbringing of the kids). Many have actually encouraged their wives along these lines, if for no other reason, then because the guys wanted to pursue IT entrepreneurship, and needed someone to support the family for a year or so.

It is the wives of these guys that I was refering to. Not women in Pakistan in general. I do not have much info on women in Pakistan, in general.

The wives of these guys have all the opportunities in the world. They have excellent supporting husbands, who would pay for their education. They have good standards of living. They have the basic BA from Pakistan. Yet hardly any (perhaps less than 10%) do anything to furthur their education. It has nothing to do with lack of confidence. They are quite confident in other more relaxing areas. They drive, they shop etc. etc. But they rarely make an attempt to pursue an education or a career (although I have to admit, this is slowly begining to change). If even 50% of them pursued something, your membership on iopwe would ten times what it is today.

It is basically tough to pursue an education and a career. That is why only determined people can do it, even though many others get the opportunity. I cannot think of any advantage your fellow members in iopwe had over these girls (who constitute the majority of the Pakistani female population in the US). However, why did the members of iopwe pursue careers, but these girls didn`t?

I am not suggesting that any Pakistani girl should be told how she should live her life. That is her own choice. A majority of Pakistani girls, in Pakistan, do fall into the category you have mentioned, i.e lack of opportunity, lack of role models (very important), lack of encouragement, lack of support, etc. However, the ones who have made it to the USA, and have all the opportunities of the world at their feet, and still do not attempt to become role models, then they have no right to complain about the condition of women in Pakistan. If I want to uplift the standard of living of the average Pakistani, should I attempt to put myself in the position where I can do something about it, or should I enjoy myself, and hope someone from Iran or India is going to do it?

I think very few women from the upper 5% (I am talking about the financial upper 5%, not necessarily about the girls who end up in medical an other colleges etc. Many of the girls who end up in these colleges do not actually belong to the upper financial 5%) of the Pakistani society attempt to become role models. Most of them are comfortable with their easy going lifestyles. Since most of them don`t pursue anything, no one ends up in a position to do anything for the remaining 95% of the women who actually do not have any opportunities. The only people who can change anything for these 95% are the upper 5%. The Pakistani men certainly aren`t going to do it. So while these 5% of the women may not be the cause of the problems for the women in Pakistan, very few of them, despite having the opportunity, have attempted to become the solution. In fact, the hardest working women in Pakistan are the poor women who work in the fields and as servants. Who gave them the ambition or the confidence, or self-worth? Necessity demanded it and they took on the challenge.

``that most of the Indians in the US are well aware of their self-worth. Specially, women``

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I think Pakistanis are more aware of their self-worth than Indians. Pakistanis generally are more self-confident, to the extent of being arrogant and violent, in demanour and public dealings than Indians. Amongst males, proportionately, Pakistanis seem to be as successful as Indians in the US.

The Paksitani women who make it to the US also have the same opportunities as the Indian women. It`s just a question of ambition and the ability to work hard. Indian women have a lot more ambition and drive than Pakistani women (not including you :)), on the average. I have interviewed Indian girls who could barely speak or look me in the eye while interviewing, yet they were determined to make a career, and were bent upon interviewing in one place after another. And I have, unfortunately, met way too many Pakistani girls/wives who had lifestyles that I envied, yet had never bothered to take a single class, or earn a single penny, or do any volunteer work, etc. Again, I am only talking about the ones in America.

``How many times you`ve convinced a chap to send his wife to school ? If yes, please share the info. If no, please enlighten why.``

Nearly every single one of my Pakistani colleagues here in the US would be more than happy if his wife furthured her education. Many of them would jump for joy. Many have tried to encourage their wives. Yet very few, probably less than 10%, of their wives attempt to pursue anything. The common factor amongst the ones who do pursue something is ambition and the will to do hard work, not anything else; not even their living standard in Pakistan.

``Lastly, I requested some information on the coffee parties.``

The coffee party circuit is hot and growing. When I went to the iopwe function, there were maybe eight or nine Pakistan women engineers present (this includes all the ones in the audience). In fact all the women guest speakers were Indian or Arab women. There wasn`t a single Pakistani female guest speaker; quite ironic, since the function was by an Organization of Pakistani Women. The number of very highly educated male Pakistanis in Silicon Valley must be well into the thousands. Are you suggesting that each and every one of those male Pakistanis has locked up his wife and is not allowing her to study, or pursue a career? Are their wives fighting against all odds to spend a single day at a community college, while the psychological effects of their Paksitani upbringing and their unenlightened cruel Pakistani husbands with MS and Ph.D degrees, are not allowing them to do so? Highly unlikely in most cases. So why were there only eight or nine Pakistani women professionals, from amongst the rich bustling Pakistani community of Silicon Valley, at the iopwe function? Because the rest didn`t take the trouble to furthur their education and were thus busy attending coffee parties.

Pakistan works, India doesnt!

I think India is doing pretty well but it is important to take a searching, critical look at oneself from time to time. Even if we don`t agree with all of it, we all must read the following:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/010330/yk9fcnll11eyyfsqonoena_4.html

Pakistan works, and India doesn`t?

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/010330/yk9fcnll11eyyfsqonoena_4.html

These Tech Oases Aren`t Transforming India

By Robert J. Dowling

We`re in the business center of the Taj West End hotel in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of India. Across the lobby, fund managers representing some $40 billion gather to get the latest on Indian information technology plays, courtesy of Goldman, Sachs & Co., which is hosting back-to-back conferences with America`s Asia Society on India`s bright high-tech future.

It`s a beautiful day in mid-March. But all is not well in the IT capital. The phones aren`t working, the laptops aren`t connecting, and tempers are rising. Suddenly, the guy next to me starts flapping his arms like a wounded eagle. ``No, no, no...arrah!`` he shouts as his connection crashes. ``You`re better off going through Pakistan,`` he says. I think it`s a joke until Madhu Kannan, who represents the New York Stock Exchange in Asia, pulls out his number for an Islamabad Internet exchange.

VISION VS. REALITY. Pakistan works, and India doesn`t? What`s going on here? Bangalore, along with emerging tech centers in Hyderabad and Pune, are India`s star business attractions. The software talent and the best schools are there, and foreign money managers, even now, are beating the bushes for promising startups. The New Delhi government would like to make IT a mantra for national renewal. ``IT isn`t just about technology, it`s a mass movement for making a new India,`` declares the government`s Information Technology Minister, Pramod Mahajan, a rising political star who was previously the country`s Information & Broadcasting Minister.

He talks about doubling the number of software engineers and using technology to modernize everything from manufacturing to agriculture. It`s a sweeping vision. But truth is, it`s mostly wrong. As with most things concerning tech today, the hype greatly outstrips the reality. India`s tech business isn`t really about benefiting India.

It`s an export business that amounts to only about 1.5% of its economy. Reaching the government`s goal of 10% or higher, where ordinary Indians could reap a real payoff, would take a political revolution that would require levels of foreign investment akin to what China has experienced. So far, that seems remote.

SELF-CONTAINED PODS. India does have some world-class software companies that aspire to become powers in their own right. But to prosper, they`ve walled themselves up in gated campuses that could just as easily be in the Arizona desert as in the lush southern state of Karnataka. A hot, dusty cab ride to Bangalore`s suburbs tells you why. There, software houses like Infosys and Wipro exist like lunar modules with their own power and communications, security, water, gyms, and wading pools. Infosys even sports a nine-hole golf course.

Here, high-tech India provides around-the-clock software services for many of America`s largest companies, including Sun Microsystems, Oracle, Motorola, General Electric, and Nortel Networks. Their self-sufficiency and intense security --- they are, after all, working with information from archrivals -- mean the only thing they really depend on from the city are the eager graduates they can hire from the top technical universities, who until better housing is built nearby, shuttle back and forth to work in company-owned vans.

Oh, it`s not a bad deal if you`re a techie, and it`s a very good deal for the companies, who pay for a software engineer in Bangalore about one-fifth what they might in California. But in terms of driving improvements for the region, outside of salaries and taxes, there`s little payoff for the local economy.

That`s because as proud as the government is of its tech stars, it has been woefully slow to improve the climate in which they live. Phone lines are owned by the state carrier, VSNL, an encrusted monopoly with no interest in improving service, and the electric power grid is a much worse version of California`s failed system. Bankrupt state companies distribute electricity from plants that aren`t up to current power needs, much less anything close to what the country would need if it drew in the level of foreign investment it aspires to. Worse, about 40% of what`s already distributed is stolen by rural users, who simply strip electricity from main transmission lines.

WEB OF VESTED INTERESTS. It doesn`t have to be this way. Deregulating the phone monopoly fast might bring in any number of outside investors. But both state and national politicians would give up a lot of power. Freeing up electric rates would lure entrants to the industry, too. But that would mean cracking down on farmers, who get their electricity gratis and kick in healthy contributions to their local politicians, who protect them from a crackdown. ``I don`t mind if we move a little bit slowly, even if it takes two years,`` says S.M. Krishna, who, as chief executive of Karnataka, is the virtual mayor of India`s Silicon Valley. He`s nationally regarded as one of the nation`s most progressive leaders. Besides IT, he now wants to make Bangalore a center for biotechnology as well. With an ample supply of smart graduates and a little venture capital, it could happen -- but probably not because of anything he does.

More likely, if India does move more boldly up the tech ladder, it may be only through islands of IT. So the next time you think of Bangalore, don`t think of it as India`s high-tech city. Instead, think of a bunch of floating private oases ringing a declining metropolis. It shouldn`t have to be that way, but under the rules of Indian politics, a distant second best, even if you have star-quality attractions, seems to be not only acceptable -- but preferred.

From the editor

By Jason Pontin

April 2, 2001 12:00am

INDIA, You have a big problem.

http://www.redherring.com/index.asp?layout=story_generic&doc_id=RH1590018359

I am back from a jaunt to the subcontinent. Thanks for the hospitality. I had a blast. Dinzal, man, you shouldn`t have; Dewang, dude, you`re a hoot. I have a friendly, if not quasi-colonial, interest in the land of cricket-mad programmers. I mean: I want India to do well, and I think it needs my help to do so.

Last year, I told the annual meeting of India`s National Association of Software and Services Companies (NASSCOM) that pursuit of riches through dot-coms would end in tears. In February 2000, on a sweltering day in Mumbai, formerly Bombay, I argued that consumer Internet companies were, in one way or another, regional businesses -- such companies either sold local products and services, or advertising for those products and services -- and that India didn`t have much of an Internet. There were only 2 million Indian Internet connections and, charitably, 10 million Indian Internet users. If the United States couldn`t sustain many profitable consumer Internet companies (see ``Hybrid B2Cs deliver``), how would India? I urged the entrepreneurs at NASSCOM 2000 to invest in software products and services -- India`s traditional technology businesses -- whose markets are international. The audience hissed. They were looking forward to their companies` public offerings on the Nasdaq. One month later the market for Internet equities crashed, taking with it venture funding of Indian startups and the entire Indian Internet economy.

This year, although India admitted my earlier perspicacity, I have offended the country once again. At NASSCOM 2001, I said that now India`s software services industry is in terrible trouble. Its growth is slowing or even stalling. India, I insisted, must begin to sell branded software products and premium consulting services with higher profits. It must cease to be the sweatshop of international software. For my pains, the Times of India (and others) called me ``the prophet of doom.``

The argument matters. It matters to India because developing cheap but reliable software for other people is big business. The Indian software development sector, with companies like Wipro Technologies and Infosys Technologies (Nasdaq: INFY), grossed annual revenue of $5.7 billion in 2000, according to NASSCOM, $4 billion of which derived from exports. Last year, almost two in five of all Fortune 500 firms outsourced some of their software development to India. Almost 10 percent of India`s gross domestic product, and 11 percent of its exports, are IT related, according to a recent Merrill Lynch survey.

It matters to the rest of the world, too. Indian software services firms train the world`s best, most creative, and most industrious software engineers. When they come to the United States, Indian engineers make U.S. developers look conventional and unimaginative. If the Indian software industry foundered -- and ceased to produce extraordinary talent -- it would be a pity for everyone concerned.

But as an industry, it is wonderfully dependent on American capital spending. With the slowdown in the U.S. economy, spending is dropping steeply: according to the Economist, it fell for the fourth consecutive quarter for the first time in nine years. Half of all U.S. business investment is in IT. Inevitably, the Indian software services industry, which has been growing at more than 60 percent per year recently, will be hurt.

NASSCOM`s president, Dewang Mehta (who looks a bit like an Indian Elvis), says the new cost consciousness of U.S. companies will actually help India: U.S. firms must continue to invest in IT and will spend more in India because India is the cheapest place to do it. This is bunk. For the foreseeable future, U.S. firms will spend as little on IT as possible. The idea that investment in IT is immune to cost cutting is false. Companies will spend just enough to maintain their existing systems -- and, by NASSCOM`s own admission, only 17 percent of the revenue of India`s software services industry derives from maintenance.

But more worrisome for the long term, India is no longer the cheapest place for software development outsourcing. Salaries have increased many times in the last few years, billing more so. This will only get worse. The Economic Times of India reported recently that both Wipro and Infosys will outsource some of their work to China. In other words, India is becoming a middleman -- and we all know what happens to middlemen in the Internet era.

The Indian software industry must, in the jargon of the business schools, ``move up the value chain.`` It must develop its own international brands. Insofar as it remains a services industry, it must offer its customers strategic consulting, and better understand Web-based and e-commerce technologies. To that end, India must invest more in research and development: R&D accounts for only 3.4 percent of all spending in its software industry -- a sadly paltry sum compared with how much is spent by the U.S. industry. Only then will India have its own domestic Juniper Networks (Nasdaq: JNPR), its indigenous Computer Associates (NYSE: CA).

Write to jason@redherring.com.

Romair:

A correction:

Personally, I have, hardly ever, come across any [professional] woman from Pakistan[regardless of the social strata she hailed from]who indulges in such baikaar [certainly, a relative term] activities.

Addendum to my last post:

There were a few sweeping statements in your last post, aside from the great suggestions. Your thoughts on women married to rich husbands and etc. made me jot down a few brain-teasers:

a) How many women in our country are independent-minded?

b) How many of them have the concept of self-worth?

c) The ones who do not have the above or haven`t ever heard of the concepts, what`s the reason behind that? Who`s the true culprit? Let`s hear from the logically insightful ones.

d) While you were growing up in Pakistan, what`s the % of enlightened men that you came across(in school, college and university)?

e) How many of those enlightened souls were/are capable of having a spouse who could actually complement them intellectually?

f) It was easy to give an example of Indians. My experience has been that most of the Indians in the US are well aware of their self-worth. Specially, women. I also feel that the women are raised a little differently. In our case, majority of our women, regardless of the social strata, are born and bred in a very sheltered and protected environment. In many cases, they may have the talent and the desire to pursue, but due to the limited opportunities and/or support from their families they aren`t able to pursue. I have met quite a few cases where the husbands were jerks and the wives were making sure that they keep their marriages alive. I have also seen a lot of divorces and maltreatment of women among Indians, but as the women have that thing in them to stand up on their own, therefore they continued to forge ahead. Also, the concept of community is very different among Indians. Let`s not try to compare apples with oranges. Let`s go back and evaluate our social system first!

g) You talked about your association with various IT orgs. How many times you`ve convinced a chap to send his wife to school ? If yes, please share the info. If no, please enlighten why.

h) On the communication styles among men and women: I watched a video a few years back by Debra Tandon or something like that. If you ever come across this video, do care to watch it. There may be some revelations! This video focuses on different communication-styles in the corporate US and has quite a few excellent case studies. The case studies go back and focus on the psychology as well as the little girls`/boys` ways of making friends. Kind of very cute, but very realistic as well. Once you watch it, please do share it with other chaps. It may be very enlightening for the whole herd!

i) Lastly, I requested some information on the coffee parties. I never heard back. That`s the difference between being with IOPWE than on Chowk. Once you are in a network, you are part of a clan. Once you are reading or sharing views on an interactive magazine, there`s no obligation to share information or respond to a genuine query. I hope you see my point here. I will only need to know the locations in Sacramento, San Jose, Santa Clara, San Fran, San Diego, and L.A. Hope that assists.

Kind Wishes.

correction # 99``provided the people making the judgment have to vested interests``

should read

``provided the people making the judgment have no vested interests``

shankar #90: I agree with everything you stated, except the last part.

It is correct that a completely unbiased individual does not exist. Even a person who is consciously unbiased, will more than likely be sub-consciously biased, and will thus not be aware of it. The only issue a person may be able to be completely unbiased about is something in which he/she has no interest. I could probably give an unbiased opinion on the benefits of growing oak trees vs. growing maple trees in New Zeeland. However, I probably could not give an unbiased opinion on a cricket match between New Zeeland and Australia, even though I do not belong to either country. For the simple reason that I do follow cricket, and have probably developed biases during matches between Pakistan and New Zeleand, and Pakistan and Australia.

The key is to reduce the biases as much as possible. The first point in this regard is to have knowledge of the area. Or openly declare that one does not have knowledge of the area. Whenever I comment on something going on inside India, I make it a point to state that I have never lived in India, so I do not know too much about its internals. I also attempt to quote either Indian or international sources. The only areas related to India on which I attempt to speak with some authority are Kashmir, Indo-Pak arms race/conflicts, Indian IT pros in the US. That is because I have experienced these areas and have done some research on them. However, in these areas, due to obvious reasons, my opinion will be considered pro-Pakistan (even if it isn`t). So whenever I criticize India in any of these areas, I attempt to quote third party credible (very important) sources.

It is incorrect to state that even these sources are consciously biased. They may have some partial biases, but those are minor. For example, Amnesty International is generally considered quite a fair broker. My biases towards Kashmir could be considered pro-Pakistan, but AI`s biases would be microscopic, and more than likely unintentional. There are other organizations like that, as well. These organizations and individuals have taken decades to develop the reputations they now possess.

Keeping this in view, I think it is impossible, for example, for a Pakistani`s views to be taken as unbiased on a topic related to Indo-Pak conflicts. It is also impossible for a Muslim to be considered unbiased on a topic related to Muslim/Hindu conflicts. Vice-versa on both those issues. So if a US news station wants to get their views on the Indian IT policy, or if a US university wants to teach a class on the Kashmir conflict, the last person in the world they should hire is a Pakistani. For the former, they should hire an Indian. For the later, they should rely on a neutral party with a good track record, perhaps a representative of AI.

My knowledge of psychiatry and psychology is limited to the two courses I took in college. One thing I did notice was that it is an extremely fuzzy subject. There could be many different analyses for the same disease/problem. It did not seem like an exact science to me. Did a man commit a crime because he was molested as a child, or because lost his job? It seemed a lot more subjective than say sex education (if a girl is pregnant, it couldn`t have been because she lost her job) or even business subjects.

I think due to the fuzziness of psychiatry (at least whatever I know of it), it cannot be used as a benchmark for deciding the biasness of neutral professionals, in general. The subject itself is so subjective that two neutral unbiased professionally qualified psychiatrists could reach opposing conclusions on the same issue. However, other issues and fields like human rights violations, successful IT policies etc. can be judged by hardcore ground realities, provided the people making the judgment have to vested interests and are not consciously biased about the subject.

In this regard I would have much more faith in a judgment made about Pakistan`s IT policy by Bill Gates, then I would I would by Ganguly, or Dr. Ata. Similarly I would have more faith in a comment regarding Kashmir by AI than I would have in a comment by Ganguly or Musharraf.

Dost-Mittar

``Almost all these entrepreneurs come from the middle or lower middle class in India. If you look at the who`s who of the Indian IT-wallahs in India and the silicon valley, none of them (with the possible exception of WIPRO`s Azim Premji) was born with a silver spoon in his/her mouth. ``

This is the most heartening aspect of IT revolution in India. That it is powered by people from average middle class and not by the rich elites makes me more hopeful about India`s future. To be specific, I can tell you about Kanpur. A decade back, people used to think that one can not become rich no matter how educated he is, until he is the son of some wealthy person/politician. Today ten years later I see a drastic change in their attitudes. Most of the people are heavily investing in education as a means of moving upward in the society. People have now realised that inspite of all corruption, you can go up if you have the required skills. So obsessed are people with higher education that they are prepared to sell their property to educate their children. And no doubt, the visible success of a lot of people from the lower middle class who made it to the IITs/RECs is playing a pivotal role. Consequently a lot of new and better secondary schools have sprung up and the existing ones are desparately trying to improve the quality of education that they provide. This strong schooling system is laying the foundation of a sustainable knowledge revolution in India in the next decade. A revamp of public school system in response to the demand of educated and highly trained people is the core area that would ensure the availability of a large pool of qualified technocrats in future. As you might know that the poverty decline has shown the steepest gradient in the last decade and only 26% of Indian population is below poverty line against 37% previously. Thus it appears that the prosperity is not limited to middle class but is seeping down to the poor classes raising the standards of living of the population as a whole. There is a sense of exuberence among most of the Indians today and a hope that a better future awaits them. And most importantly, a feeling that they ``control`` their future. The weapon this time is education of course.

AeishA # 96

Dear Aeisha,

You have asked very relevant and appropriate questions. So long as the social issues of dowry, bride-burning, casteism, female infanticide and the economic issue of poverty are not addressed systematically and collectively, Indian will continue to carry a blotch of shame on their heads. I do.

Thankfully, we here on Chowk are not a representative sample of Indians. There are many many Indians who are actively trying to purge India of such evils. But you are right: the challenges are huge and all of us need to focus on these real tasks more than we do.

It is much easier to criticize others than to focus on one`s own shortcomings: one of the reasons human problems never seem to go away.

#96 AeishA

The horrific violence against women is the flip side of the wealth that is being created. Men in the lower rungs try to climb up quickly by extracting bigger and bigger dowries. If the bride`s family had the kind of money that is demanded, they could support her for life. (Of course she could work and support herself too if she had minimal skills/education). What the woman gets then for the money is sex. There is another name for that. We Indians look the other way when confronted with the problem of dowry and justify it many different ways (without condoning the violence, I hasten to add - but violence is a significant byproduct). The Indian middle class has caught money fever and we will sell our souls and burn our women and put our elderly out to pasture if need be!

ROmair,

People fight for their rights in all the countries of the world. They do that in India and they do that in Pakistan. Would it be acceptable if Indian volunteers went to Pakistan and

helped the Pakistani people fight for their rights?

When Sheikh Abdullah, the universally accepted leader of the kashmiris, swore by the

Indian constitution, the kashmiris became Indian citizens. The legitimate complaints of those

Indian citizens must be addressed by the Indian govt. Pakistani volunteers have no business

doing their voluntary work in India.

re ROmair #87:

``Any buffoon knows that the Kashmiri uprising is indigeneous``

Thank you for confirming my suspision.

later

-sac

Romair #87

Roamir, can I ask you a question?

Would you say that the Taliban were an indigeneous Afghanistani phenonmenon?

Ref ROmair:

``I wouldn`t be surprised if his views fit in line with the views held by most Indians. So they may not appear biased to you. However, this is the whole point I am trying to make, i.e. if a person`s views only fit into the views of one party in a conflict, those views cannot be considered very objective``

I didnt say I consider him unbaised.

Do you consider your views as objective?

Re: ROmair

``When this guy states even the obvious (like the Kashmiri uprising being indigeneous), ``

You are supposed to be some hotshot Paki IT fellow aren`t you? This says doesn`t say much about your intelligence.

Umairr/Romair,

What the heck should I call you these days?:) I think your post #87 was a masterpiece! Your unique way of arguing a point makes a believer out of me; even if I conciously may disgree with some of what you say. I think you are a FANTASTIC spin doctor. I sincerely mean that as a complement & I `ll tell you why.

Let me argue some of your points ( which I both agree & disagree with). You place great faith (perhaps faith is not an accurate word) in the opinion of ``neutral`` ``experts``.

I`ve put both those words in parenthesis because of the following. It is impossible for ANY human being to be absolutely neutral. Biases are built in every human mind. For instance, your biasis will always be pro Pakistan (no matter how much you criticise Pakistan); the same goes for me--no matter how much I condemn GoI`s policy re Kashmir, my biasis will be pro India. Then again, if we have to compare Germany to France, even if we think we (as in S Asians) are neutral--we will have our own biasis about them. Sure our own opinion will be less bias than a Frenchman or a German. But you cant completely eliminate bias.

As for the term ``expert``. You got to forgive me, but I`m very cynical. Soon after my residency in psych (in the mid 80`s) I worked as a court psychiatrist (with a few other psychiatrists) for about 6 months.. The chief judge in question was sick & tired of ``expert psychiatrists`` bought into court (for a handsome fee) by both plaintiff & defense experts. Those ``experts`` would give diametrically opposite opinions & conclusions of the same issue! So he dissmissed them as being ``hired guns`` who are completely biased to ``which side their bread is being buttered``. So he figured that if the court paid the psychiatrist, he/she would be absolutely non biased & neutral.

So he started a pilot program of getting funding from the State to have the Govt of NY pay our salaries. Heres the funny thing--even us ``completely neutral`` psychiatrists came to diametrically opposite opinions & conclusions about the same issue!!!--it all depended on whether we were subconciously conservative or liberal!!!

Now thats what happens with ``experts`` of ANY inexact science---be it psychiatry, economy, foreign policy, domestic policy, religion/morality, IT policy etc etc etc. So if you can quote an American expert with pro Pakistan views, I can turn around & get an American expert with anti Pakistan views. Now both these guys will be telling the ``truth``. But it all depends on how they SPIN the truth. Incidentally, its perfectly legal & ethical to put a SPIN on the truth because ALL of us have our own biasis about almost EVERYTHING.

The only power that is completely neutral, completely, non biased(? I wonder sometimes) is GOD. Needless to say, He`s a complete expert on everything.

However, we live on Earth, not Heaven. In the ideal world we could have the ``luxury`` of an American raised in Pakistan being a TRUE expert of Pakistan. But do we always have that luxury in the real world? Besides, would that NEUTRAL American ``expert`` be completely NEUTRAL? How do you know?!, maybe he was insulted by some Pakistani & subconciously he hates Pakistanis (because of a stupid prejudice) or conversely treated like a king in Pakistan ,in which case his opinions are totally biased pro-Pakistani.

So ultimately, in my opinion, the views of ``neutral experts`` about ANYTHING are just about as valid or invalid as those of ordinary laypeople Chowkies, who are obviously biased towards the side of the border they were born in.

Sridhar, romair

gremlins seem to have caught my posts, let them have a rest.

regards

jay

harimau #85: ``going so far as to say that the struggle in Kashmir is indigenous.``

This is exactly my point. When this guy states even the obvious (like the Kashmiri uprising being indigeneous), it is considered objective analysis.

Any buffoon knows that the Kashmiri uprising is indigeneous. Pakistani volunteers are aiding in the uprsing, but the uprising itself is indigeneous, and supported by an overwhelming majority of Kashmiris. The Indian govt. knows this (if it didn`t consider the uprising indigeneous, it would have held a plebescite there decades ago). All the international human rights organizations know it. The US govt. knows it. Deep down in their heart of hearts, all the Indians know this also. The only people who do not know this are the ones who have extremely biased opinions. If the benchmark of a person`s objectivity is that once in a blue moon, he will state the obvious, then wouldn`t that indicate that he is biased?

As a matter of principle, a person who is a professor (not in India, but in the US), and happens to be an Indian, should ethically refrain from commenting on the internal matters of Pakistan; lest his views be considered biased. Or at the very least, that person should highlight the fact that he is commenting about a country with which his native country is at war with, and a country within which he is not considered an objective analyst. If Mr. Ganguly was working for the BJP in the Indian Embassy, one could understand that he has to portray the Indian point of view on everything. But he is not. He is a professor in a third country, USA.

I think, for a person to be considered an expert on a certain country, there should be a pre-requisite that person have at least spent a significant portion of his life in the country on which he/she claims expertise. If he/she hasn`t done so, than he/she should refrain from acting like an expert in that area.

bong_dongs: #84: ``Can you cite instances of his bias?``

I have seen Mr. Ganguly speak on US TV every now and then, and have read various articles written by him on Pakistan. His views are generally completely one-sided, pro-India. One would think he was a member of the Indian govt., not a professor in America. I am not quite sure how he can comment with such authority on the Pakistani society, when he didn`t even grow up there. I am sure there are plenty of Pakistanis who have quite a bit more knowledge of Pakistan than he does. In my opinion, when the US press contacts him, they are generally trying to get the Indian point of view on Pakistan. Even in the article in the previous reply, Mr. Ganguly was shown as the, ``negative`` on Pakistan, while the Pakistani guy was shown as the, ``positive`` on Pakistan.

``At best Ganguly, who called Pakistan`s IT policy is a lot of ``smoke screens,````

I have been following Pakistan`s IT policy since it was put out, and even I cannot say with any amount of certainity whether it is a smoke-screen or not. Even though, IT is part of my profession and I grew up in Pakistan, and worked in the Pakistani beaurecracy for a decade. How can Mr. Ganguly be so sure?

``And that`s not even factoring in corruption, noted Ganguly. A few years ago, a Swiss group ranked Pakistan as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, second only to Nigeria, he said.``

This is true. However,

``NEW DELHI, OCT 26: Transparency International (TI) India, a non-governmental `peoples` coalition against corruption`, said on Tuesday that according to a study it had commissioned, India was among the most corrupt nations in the world.

India was ranked 73rd among the 99 countries covered by the study conducted by Gallup International (GIA), a press note by the TI said....Pakistan was perceived as being more corrupt than India, though only marginally, ranking 88`` (http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/19991027/ige27045.html)

So if India can achieve so much IT success, despite being marginally less corrupt than Pakistan, then why cannot Pakistan do the same.

As far as his documented biases are concerned, as much as I would like to satisfy your request, I currently do not have the time to go through all my notes. I would suggest you do a search on his name, and you will find plenty of articles covering his views on Pakistan. If you are unable to come up with any info, in a week or so, kindly let me know, and I will be happy to assist you.

I wouldn`t be surprised if his views fit in line with the views held by most Indians. So they may not appear biased to you. However, this is the whole point I am trying to make, i.e. if a person`s views only fit into the views of one party in a conflict, those views cannot be considered very objective.

It should obvious from Chowk, that it is impossible for Pakistanis to be objective about India, and Indians to be objective about Pakistan. Keeping that in mind, I would encourage everyone to rely on the information provided by independent analysts from third party countries, and internationally recognized human rights organizations. Mr. Ganguly does not fall into either of those categories.

Dear All:

I received some emails with great comments on iopwe`s website. It will be great if all the folks who are interested in sharing their perspective/giving the feedback can put their comments in the ``comments section`` on the website.

Or

Just post your thoughts on the bulletin board. Please do care to write a subject in the subject-line. I hope that won`t be asking too much.

Thanks for taking the time to give your feedback.

Regards.

Ref Romair #: 83

[Zamir : ``Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas.``

I have never figured out why this guy always shows up in anything related to Pakistan.]

You should be glad; he has been quite critical of India`s role in Kashmir, going so far as to say that the struggle in Kashmir is indigenous.

Ref Sumit Ganguly:

Can you cite instances of his bias?

Zamir : ``Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas.``

I have never figured out why this guy always shows up in anything related to Pakistan. I have never heard him say anything good about Pakistan, for obvious reasons. I wonder how long he has lived in Pakistan. Perhaps, Americans think since he looks desi, he is a Pakistani.

I am not sure whether it is objective to interview Indians regarding Pakistan, and Pakistanis regarding India. More than likely they are going to show the other country in bad light. The interviewees, specially if they are professors like Mr. Ganguly, should be aware of their own biases, and if they have any integrity, should refuse to comment on the other country. Otherwise they just turn into propoganda machineries. Which is something that a professor should consider below his level of ethics

I did not write post #77 dammit!