Is IT the Panacea?

romair,

quite an expected reply from you. the man of details and references and proofs suddenly expects to be taken at face value. let me just say that an honest man has nothing to hide.
i can find more holes in your clarification as well. a classic case of inventing more to cover up one. but i won`t.

[...you can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts...]
i attribute that to your superior interpersonal skills.

[...you could have concentrated on either of these three, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one...]
and pray, what would be the point of concentrating on points on which we might be in agreeement? besides, on earlier occasions you have argued that indians are no better than the pakistanis or the chinese or the russians as far as technical abilities in IT go and that indians are just more in numbers and hence have all the visibility. you simply change your position to suit a particular post at a particular time.

i think a lot of pakistanis here would have been greatly relieved if you actually were a 12 year old islamabadi!

Romair:

For the time being, please stick to the pertinent points! Rest assured, I won`t let the ``controversial points`` escape that easily.

later,

It is unfortunate that this thread is not on the main board any longer, since this is developing into an interesting discussion. Maybe we should attempt to hijack one of the poetry threads on the main board, with IT related topics:-)

Zahra #115: ``You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance.``

Could you let me know the contradictions.

Shankar #116: ``Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer).``

Don`t worry about misunderstandings. I did not think that you had refered to me in any kind of a derogatory manner. I was just attempting to answer your questions, and figure out why you felt that many Pakistanis consider Indians to be village-based. Also, I was attempting to clarify that my comparisons were between Indians and Pakistanis from comparable backgrounds.

``A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts.``

It has been my experience that when a replier (Pakistani or Indian) resorts to personal attacks towards an individual, it is a good indication that the replier has run out of information, but is unwilling to admit it. The replier has no leg to stand on, and is, at that point, resorting to his/her last line of defense, i.e. personal attacks. That is a good time to realize that such a person has nothing more to offer, and one should just ignore his/her comments. I get personally attacked by a lot of Indians, and quite a few Pakistanis as well. I generally ignore them, because, to me, its just a sign that these guys have basically lost the argument, but have too big of an ego to admit it.

So I would suggest you ignore the Pakistanis who make derogatory personal comments about Indians, also. Otherwise, you will either end up abandoning Chowk, or you will get so worked up that you will end up on your own psychiatrist`s chair :-) No website or interaction is important enough to even microscopically alter one`s emotional state. And do not worry about offending me. I am not easily offended, both intentionally or unintentionally. The fact that you and I are interacting should be enough of an indication that we have so far not offended each other.

dost-mittar #117: ``Could it be that we have here a case of what they call `pseudo correlation` in statistics, that is to say, you are confusing regional with national traits?``

This is probably quite accurate. I think the answer is something along these lines.

Most of the Pakistanis in the US IT industry actually tend to be from Karachi and not Punjab. I would guess there are more Pakistanis in Silicon Valley from Karachi, then from the rest of Pakistan combined (just an educated guess). I think 80% or so of the Pakistani IT companies are in Karachi. The culture of all of Pakistan is however greatly influenced by Punjab, due to its large population. So perhaps Pakistanis tend to socially slide towards a Punjab-centric society. While maybe Indians, as a whole, at least in IT, tend to slide towards a South-Indian centric society. I don`t know. Just a guess.

concerned #114: ``yaar, you really crack me up!

so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!``

First of all, I find it interesting, perhaps an honor, that you follow my posts so closely. You can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts.

Just to clarify your minsunderstandings: Employers did not reject the Indians, nor the Pakistanis. Since we were graduate students, all of us were interviewing for jobs while we were studying. It is a always a good idea to do so, since the potential employers can then pay for the remaining tuition. So while we were students, I got hired before the Indian students, even though I was a semester or so behind them in academic work. All of them (apart from one or two who also were hired as students), got hired immediately after graduation, or within a few months after graduation.

I never stated that I was, ``smarter`` than any of the Indians. In fact, I attempted to indicate exactly the opposite.

``and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated.``

Is there any particular reason, why are you refering to Indians as nerds? In my replies, I never used this term.

Very very few IT graduates in the US go begging for jobs. Almost all of the ones with me in college were hired immediately after graduation. However, only a few of them were hired in full-time positions before graduation. Most were hired as part-time interns, before graduation.

``can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college?``

No I cannot. Because it is none of your business. For all you, know I could be a twelve year old kid sitting in Islamabad who has fabricated all this information. And I am not going to spend the time in clarifying this, nor give you the right to doubt my integrity. Either believe what I am saying about myself at face value, or do not believe it. That is up to you. It doesn`t make any difference to me.

I hope the above answers your questions. I mentioned two areas in which I felt Indians excelled (programming and entrepreneurship) in comparsion to Pakistanis, and one area (people-related areas) in which I felt Pakistanis excelled in comparison to Indians. You could have concentrated on either of these three years, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one in which I showed Pakistanis is favorable light. If it makes you feel any better you can completely ignore what I stated in my previous replies, and consider Indians to be superior, in every area, to Pakistanis and to the rest of the world. I will not lose any sleep over it.

Re: Reply #: 112

shankar Sir,

Is this fictitious Dr Shah a cardiologist practising in Florida? If he is, I think i know him.

sridhar

Umairr,

Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer). I DONT think YOU are an arrogant snob. In fact, I`m impressed that you would interview & hire many Indians & you are willing to put aside any personal political/humanitarian bais as you do so. Its especially remarkable, since you are a half Kashmiri & have a personal & genuine complaint about what is happening in your native land.

Sometime ago, (I think it was sac) who published an article in Chowk about India`s IT industry. A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts. If I`m not mistaken, thats where the ``heeng smelling`` cliche started.

I realise there are bigots in every country. The vast majority of Pakistani posters on Chowk are decent, moderate & fair. I made a special reference to ``THOSE`` Pakistanis who feel...

Eventhough I`m a shrink, I`m just as neurotic as any of you.. While I laugh at those who insult me personally, it hurts when my countrymen/women are collectively insulted by prejudiced Pakistanis. There are very few things that we Indians are genuinely proud of; IT is one of them. Heck, our prowess may not be as great as the American IT industry. However, thats one of the few things other Asian countries admire about us; including Pakistanis (grudgingly, perhaps).

Romair:

I will get back to your questions as well as interesting observations later on. You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance. I understand that they were written in good faith and I want to read them in the same stride. It`s just that I want to be very careful in scrutanizing them, therefore I will address them later!

In the meantime, if you have any suggestions or a list of women in your area:

- who were not at IOPWE`s event and should have been there

or

- who are active in the community and were not aware of the gathering

or

- who can add a lot due to their experience and it would be great to have them on board

or

- you have friends whose wives are more involved in hulla-gulla than substantive objectives in life and you would like them to be at this event

or
.......
.......
.......


Please share that information with me on Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com

There will be an open house in the near future[I guess this month]. I think it will be great if you can provide the requested information. I will make sure that an invite is sent to them and we can tap into those indivs/resources.

PS: If you`d like to be at the gathering yourself, please send thy email address as well.

PS1: Thanks in advance for your sincere efforts, constructive criticism and thoughtful suggestions.

later,

romair,

[...All the Indians finished their academic program, with equal or higher grades than me, a couple of semesters before I did. However, I got a job before any of them did. In fact their was another Pakistani with me, and he got a job quite quickly also. Probably because both of us did quite a bit better than the Indian graduates in interviews...]

yaar, you really crack me up!
so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!

and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated. eventually, the nerds also got jobs but only after smarter pakistanis had been hired. and then the nerds struggled in the management queue while you climbed the ladder with remarkable ease!

can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college? which company did the indian guys work for?

looking forward to the info.

shankar #112: It is quite obvious that one cannot compare a person who has made it to the USA from a village in Pakistan to someone who has made it to the USA from Bombay or Banglore. And vice-versa. When I made a comparison between the areas in which Indians and Pakistanis and Americans were successful in the USA in IT, I was attempting to do so amongst people from equal backgrounds, i.e. comparing a Pakistani guy from Lahore with an Indian guy from Bombay, and an Indian guy from a village with a Pakistani guy from a village.

If we assume that Pakistanis and Indians enjoy an equal standard of living in Pakistan and India respectively, then one would have to assume that there are quite a few Pakistani success stories in the US (perhaps proportionately equal) which fall into the category of, ``low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts,`` as well. And a proportionately equal no. of Indians who come from big urban centers. So I am basing my comparisons on people who had comparative backgrounds in India and Pakisan, i.e. village educated Indians with village educated Pakistanis with village educated Americans. And the same for urban educated Pakistanis, Indians, and Americans.

And based on my experience of hiring and interviewing many candidates for start-up software companies, as well as my work experience, though not based on any scientific study, I have reached the following order of merit:

Software Programming: 1) Indians 2) Pakistanis 3) Americans

Entreprenuership: 1) Indians 2) Americans/Pakistanis (tied)

Management/People related jobs 1) Americans 2) Pakistanis 3) Indians

I don`t know how scientifically accurate this maybe, however I have read similar articles in magazines like Fortune. And I have experienced it too often personally to not be convinced of it. I don`t know the reasons behind this. Maybe the average Pakistani IT graduate does not like programming (I know Americans don`t). Maybe the average Indian graduate thinks moving up the management ranks is a waste of time, and immediately jumps to entrepreneurship. Or maybe there are certain factors in their respective societies and educational systems (Indian, Pakistani, American) that strengthen one aspect of their personalities an weaken other aspects. Or maybe my analysis is completely off the mark. Again I am comparing the villagers to the villagers and the urbanites with the urbanites.

Amongst my graduating class, most of the Indians were from major urban cities (you seemed to have assumed, for some reason, that they were from villages). Considering the fact that at the time of my graduation, IT had not even touched Pakistan, and was already well into India, in terms of IT urbanness, us Pakistani students were villagers in comparison to the Indians. I don`t think any of the Indians were any more intelligent than I. Yet all of them finished their degrees exactly on schedule, while most of us Pakistanis were a couple of semesters late. Almost all the Indians received equal or higher grades than I did. One could say they were technically more sound than I, and will probably write more papers and books than me. Yet I got a job before they did. And I have moved up management ranks faster than them. Yet, they probably will, if they already haven`t, start IT companies well before me. The American students in our group will probably avoid the engineering dept of companies, all together. They will start companies slower than Indians, but will move up the management ranks faster than Indians or Pakistanis. I don`t know why, but I have noticed this trend way too often.

On a side psycho-analytical note: When I mentioned that Pakistanis tended to be more confident in social dealings than Indians, you automatically assumed two things:

1) ``Pakistanis self confidently & arrogantly dissmissing Indians as low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts.`` I didn`t mention this anywhere. I just stated that Pakistanis could be self-confident to the point of being arrogant (with no reference to Indians). 2) Pakistanis in the US tend to be urbanites, while Indians tend to be villagers. Although, I never stated that either.

Is this an individual view, or is this view consciously or sub-consciously held by Indians regarding how Pakistanis view them? Or am I misreading your comments. Looking forward to your expert opinion.

Romair,

#110

Your observations are very interesting & probably true. I`m not an expert at this , BUT...OK, start getting scared...:)

When I read the article in businessweek about the ``whiz kids`` from India, most of IIT graduates who were mentioned in the article were in very important MANAGEMENT positions in some of the top US corporations. In other words, their strong background from academic institutions like IITs gave them very important skills in management. Undoubtedly, most of them took MBAs in the US studies.

Most Indians who have come to the US come from extremely humble backgrounds. They may understand english, but are hesitant & diffident to converse with Americans because of their very thick & pronounced accents. Therefore they tend to become very clannish & stick with their fellow Indians.

Even among them, they gravitate towards their own ``mother tongues``. For instance, N.Indians & S.Indians tend to have their own ``associations``. N.Indians are much closer culturally to Pakistanis than to S. Indians. In small towns, which have fewer Indians, they have ``Indian associations``. In larger cities, there are so many Indians that they will form a ``telugu association``, ``gujerati association``, ``sikh association`` etc etc.

Let me share an interesting observation of Indians in a small town I practice medicine in. The town has a population of 60,000 people. If you take the surrounding rural countryside, the population is about 150,000. Out of this, the Indian population is about 300 (roughly). Most of these Indians are doctors or in the family of doctors. A small smattering of Indians are motel owners (Patels) & other small businessmen/women.

Indians started coming to this town roughly in the 80s. The first Indians here were doctors & their families. After 20 odd years, a third of the medical staff in the local hospital are Indians. The ``old timers`` in the Indian medical field (ie the first Indian doctors who came here in the 80s) tell me that they had to slog like dogs to make it . The local Americans (both American doctors & patients) viewed them with a lot of suspicion.

These Indians set up their practices & initially their only clientelle was uninsured, under insured, or public aid patients. These patients would come to Indian doctors because the American doctors did`nt want them. For instance, an Indian cardiologist (for the sake of anonymity, let me call him Dr Shah) who came here in 82 said that he was forced to practice ``solo`` because the Amercan cariologists (who had a thriving group practice) refused to have him join their group.

For a cardiologist to practice ``solo`` means he cant take a vacation (doesnt have anybody to cover for him). He had to be in town & BE AVAILABLE to his patients 24/7/365. He was willing to do that because he was perfectly content to live in a very modest house & drive a very modest car. To him, his standard of living was luxurious compared to the village in India, that he originated from. Then after 5 years or so, he convinced another Indian cardiologist to join him.

Today, the two of them have cornered the market! He`s just built a beautiful million dollar house (in BFE small town America!) & built a beautiful office building to accomodate their bustling practice. The American cardiologists are begging him to merge with their group. The latest scuttlebutt is that he`s agreed so long as the two original Indians are majority stockholders in that multimillion dollar generating corporation.

Dr Shah told me that when he was a kid growing up in a village in Andhra Pradesh (in the 50s & 60s), his house (more like a one room hutment), his house had no electicity, they had to walk half a mile to draw water from a well. He had to study for his high school final exam on the road side under a street lamp. Today he performs about 10 cardiac catheterisations & baloon angioplasties a day! He still has a very thick accent. I can barely understand his english--God knows how his patients can! However, his clientelle has changed. The local mayor, congressman & the sheriff are his patients!! Does he have an MBA?! Nah!!! He probably doesnt even know what an MBA means!

I can tell you success stories of all these Indian villagers, who have an MD after their name. Today, those 30% Indian doctors are controlling the local hospital. Several of them are appointed to the Board of directors, that runs the hospital. In the recent Medical Staff meeting, the doctors unanimously elected an Indian as Chief of Staff (eventhough 70% of the doctors are American!).

When this desi Chief of Staff was giving his acceptance speech in a very thick desi accent, I turned to an American doctor collegue (let me call him Dr Smith) & asked him ``why in the hell did you vote for this guy?``. Dr Smith replied, with a twinkle in his eyes & said `` I dont understand what the F he says, but he sure KNOWS what the F he`s talking about!!!``

Umairr, the bottom line is that I see many Pakistanis self confidently & arrogantly dissmissing Indians as low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts. Maybe there`s an element of truth in that. To those Pakistanis who hold that view, let me tell you guys one thing---in the national AAPI meetings, none other than the President of the US has been a keynote speaker!

LOW CLASS, HEENG SMELLING INDIAN CHUTS--ZINDABAD!!!

Romair

#87

My purpose of posting the article was not to start an argument. When I first read Mr. Gangule`s comments my feelings were exactly the same, as a matter of fact I almost sent him an e-mail congratulating him on ``living up to the expectations``. It is kind of amusing that Pakistanis have no problem with our IT policy, our American clients have no problem in dealing with our engineers, but our ``friends`` .... However in all fairness to Mr. Gangule, I have read some articles from him that were quite balanced. Read http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/sumit.htm

Several things I have noticed on this board that I would like to comment about.

1: Frankly speaking I am sick and tired of hearing that Pakistan is the second most corrupt country in the world. So I did a little research of my own. This was stated by ``Transparency International``, when they ran a sample of only 35 countries they found that Pakistan was the second most corrupt country, second only to Nigeria. However next year when they expanded the number of countries to over 70, Pakistan dropped down to somewhere in teens. As a matter of fact they found that both Russia and Indonesia were more corrupt then Pakistan (yet Indonesia had a per capita income of over $2600). This does not mean that we should be very proud just because we dropped down a few points on the corruption scale, for me even one rupee of corruption is one too many, but it only proves that the problem of corruption is common to most third and second world countries and that Pakistan in not unique in this respect.

2: Regarding the WSJ article I posted a couple of days ago, I agreed with Mr. Gangule that Pakistan did not invest in education as much as India did in 60s. Asia week publishes an annual list of best universities of Asia. There are three universities of Pakistan that make it to the list every year, these are GIK, NUST and SZABIST. If you notice all three of them were established in the last 10 years. What were we doing in the previous 40 years if we couldn`t establish a decent university. Yet we have taken the correct steps in last few years. Some say that 90s was a lost decade for Pakistan, well if Pakistan was able to create world class universities in last 10 years then all was not lost, our future generations will get rewards of these deeds. When I left Pakistan in mid 80s, there were only two universities in Karachi. The concept of private university did not exist, today in Karachi alone there are probably over 40 universities, agreed that not all are accredited by university grants commission, but I believe that market needs will eventually settle these problems too.

3: Your comments that Pakistanis are socially more active reminds me of a discussion I had with my foreign students adviser in college. She once told me that the problem with us (that is Pakistani`s, Irani`s and Arabs) is that you are smart people and you know it, thus you are over confident and you don`t put that much effort in your studies. On the other hand Orientals are hard working people, no matter how smart they really are.

rsihar #108: ``One cannot generalize from these observations unless similar observations are also shared by a large number of people.``

You are correct. I am only expressing my own opinion based on the experiences I have had. that is why I stated, ``My experience has been exactly the opposite,`` in my previous reply.

When I stated that I felt Pakistanis seem more self-confident in their personal dealings, I did not mean to imply they were more competent. I was implying that they are generally more extroverted and social. In terms of academics, in my experience, Indians seem to finish their academic programs quite a bit faster than Pakistanis, on the average. I was the last person to graduate from my class in graduate studies. There were a couple of Pakistanis and around eight or nine Indians in the group. All the Indians finished their academic program, with equal or higher grades than me, a couple of semesters before I did. However, I got a job before any of them did. In fact their was another Pakistani with me, and he got a job quite quickly also. Probably because both of us did quite a bit better than the Indian graduates in interviews.

But as you stated, it is mostly personal experience. I have however noticed this trend in Silicon Valley also. Indians tend to be better (or take more interest) at academic subjects like programming, while Pakistanis tend to be better (or take more interest) at people relating fields like tech support and management. Americans tend be completely in people relating fields, with only a minority concentrating on the academic related fields in IT.

Re:Reply #: 106

msarwar,

That was a thought provoking article that you posted on the site. No doubt indian bureuacracy and politicians have time and again put dampers on progress but i believe things are changing, though ever so slowly. India is at the point of completely deregulating VSNL (the telephonery). Recently,it completely deregulated license on consumer items but it took them 9 years to do so (the process was started in 1991).

sridhar

Re: Reply #: 104

``My experience has been exactly the opposite. I think Pakistanis are more aware of their self-worth than Indians. Pakistanis generally are more self-confident, to the extent of being arrogant and violent, in demanour and public dealings than Indians. Amongst males, proportionately, Pakistanis seem to be as successful as Indians in the US``.

Romair,

You have presented your personal observations in the above statements. One cannot generalize from these observations unless similar observations are also shared by a large number of people. I have a different experience to recount. While doing my residency in Pediatrics from one of the big hospitals in New York, i came in contact with many Pakistanis. Infact out of a total of about 20 residents in our program, there were 4 Pakistanis (about 7 or 8 Indians; the rest from Bangladesh,Nigeria,Iran and so on). I did not find the Pakistani residents more self-confident than the Indians to the extent of being arrogant and violent as you put it. One of them did so badly that he had to repeat one extra year. The other (who was a very good friend of mine)did fairly well. The other 2 Pakistani residents were women. One of them was quiet by nature but otherwise a very nice person. She was very religious and would often interrupt her work to say her Namaaz. The other woman was nothing much to talk about.

How about the Indians in the program? Out of the 7 or 8, 3 got fast-tracked (finishing their residency in 2 instead of 3 years). The rest (including myself)did fairly well. We all got into a good fellowship program. I found that the Americans value modesty and hardwork which some of my Indian colleagues in the program showed,thereby earning a good name. Some of them were already Pediatricians from India,having done their M.D but at no point became arrogant because of this added advantage. At the same time i never found them lacking in self-confidence. These are just my experiences. I am sure others in this forum may have similar or differing thoughts.

However,i agree with your last statement. Pakistani professionals seem to be as successful as their Indian counterparts. What they lack is the sheer number. India being a larger country with a much larger population and skilled work force sends a larger number of these men to USA. This in noway shows Pakistan in bad light.

sridhar

Zahra reply #103: Here are the answers to your question:

a)b)c) I don`t know

d) I do know. I cannot speak for everyone, but while I was in college, most of the guys around me were quite enlightened. Then again, I spent almost all my college years in Pakistan in military academies, so I cannot speak for the civilian college crowds. In the military, women (wives of other officers) are given quite a high status by everyone. And many of them were pursuing careers as teachers, doctors, etc. I have met the daughters of the older military officers, and most of them seem to be well-adjusted and have been given ample opportunity by their parents to pursue their education and, in many case, their careers.

I am quite familiar with the civilian Pakistani guys who study and work in Silcon Valley, however. I have hung around them for a long time now, and I have found almost all of them to be very enlightened. If they were any more enlightened they would turn into light bulbs. Most of them are self-made and very highly educated. They are far better husbands than their American colleagues. Nearly every single one of the ones I know personally would be more than happy if his wife were to study furthur and pursue careers (provided it didn`t effect the upbringing of the kids). Many have actually encouraged their wives along these lines, if for no other reason, then because the guys wanted to pursue IT entrepreneurship, and needed someone to support the family for a year or so.

It is the wives of these guys that I was refering to. Not women in Pakistan in general. I do not have much info on women in Pakistan, in general.

The wives of these guys have all the opportunities in the world. They have excellent supporting husbands, who would pay for their education. They have good standards of living. They have the basic BA from Pakistan. Yet hardly any (perhaps less than 10%) do anything to furthur their education. It has nothing to do with lack of confidence. They are quite confident in other more relaxing areas. They drive, they shop etc. etc. But they rarely make an attempt to pursue an education or a career (although I have to admit, this is slowly begining to change). If even 50% of them pursued something, your membership on iopwe would ten times what it is today.

It is basically tough to pursue an education and a career. That is why only determined people can do it, even though many others get the opportunity. I cannot think of any advantage your fellow members in iopwe had over these girls (who constitute the majority of the Pakistani female population in the US). However, why did the members of iopwe pursue careers, but these girls didn`t?

I am not suggesting that any Pakistani girl should be told how she should live her life. That is her own choice. A majority of Pakistani girls, in Pakistan, do fall into the category you have mentioned, i.e lack of opportunity, lack of role models (very important), lack of encouragement, lack of support, etc. However, the ones who have made it to the USA, and have all the opportunities of the world at their feet, and still do not attempt to become role models, then they have no right to complain about the condition of women in Pakistan. If I want to uplift the standard of living of the average Pakistani, should I attempt to put myself in the position where I can do something about it, or should I enjoy myself, and hope someone from Iran or India is going to do it?

I think very few women from the upper 5% (I am talking about the financial upper 5%, not necessarily about the girls who end up in medical an other colleges etc. Many of the girls who end up in these colleges do not actually belong to the upper financial 5%) of the Pakistani society attempt to become role models. Most of them are comfortable with their easy going lifestyles. Since most of them don`t pursue anything, no one ends up in a position to do anything for the remaining 95% of the women who actually do not have any opportunities. The only people who can change anything for these 95% are the upper 5%. The Pakistani men certainly aren`t going to do it. So while these 5% of the women may not be the cause of the problems for the women in Pakistan, very few of them, despite having the opportunity, have attempted to become the solution. In fact, the hardest working women in Pakistan are the poor women who work in the fields and as servants. Who gave them the ambition or the confidence, or self-worth? Necessity demanded it and they took on the challenge.

``that most of the Indians in the US are well aware of their self-worth. Specially, women``

My experience has been exactly the opposite. I think Pakistanis are more aware of their self-worth than Indians. Pakistanis generally are more self-confident, to the extent of being arrogant and violent, in demanour and public dealings than Indians. Amongst males, proportionately, Pakistanis seem to be as successful as Indians in the US.

The Paksitani women who make it to the US also have the same opportunities as the Indian women. It`s just a question of ambition and the ability to work hard. Indian women have a lot more ambition and drive than Pakistani women (not including you :)), on the average. I have interviewed Indian girls who could barely speak or look me in the eye while interviewing, yet they were determined to make a career, and were bent upon interviewing in one place after another. And I have, unfortunately, met way too many Pakistani girls/wives who had lifestyles that I envied, yet had never bothered to take a single class, or earn a single penny, or do any volunteer work, etc. Again, I am only talking about the ones in America.

``How many times you`ve convinced a chap to send his wife to school ? If yes, please share the info. If no, please enlighten why.``

Nearly every single one of my Pakistani colleagues here in the US would be more than happy if his wife furthured her education. Many of them would jump for joy. Many have tried to encourage their wives. Yet very few, probably less than 10%, of their wives attempt to pursue anything. The common factor amongst the ones who do pursue something is ambition and the will to do hard work, not anything else; not even their living standard in Pakistan.

``Lastly, I requested some information on the coffee parties.``

The coffee party circuit is hot and growing. When I went to the iopwe function, there were maybe eight or nine Pakistan women engineers present (this includes all the ones in the audience). In fact all the women guest speakers were Indian or Arab women. There wasn`t a single Pakistani female guest speaker; quite ironic, since the function was by an Organization of Pakistani Women. The number of very highly educated male Pakistanis in Silicon Valley must be well into the thousands. Are you suggesting that each and every one of those male Pakistanis has locked up his wife and is not allowing her to study, or pursue a career? Are their wives fighting against all odds to spend a single day at a community college, while the psychological effects of their Paksitani upbringing and their unenlightened cruel Pakistani husbands with MS and Ph.D degrees, are not allowing them to do so? Highly unlikely in most cases. So why were there only eight or nine Pakistani women professionals, from amongst the rich bustling Pakistani community of Silicon Valley, at the iopwe function? Because the rest didn`t take the trouble to furthur their education and were thus busy attending coffee parties.

Pakistan works, India doesnt!

I think India is doing pretty well but it is important to take a searching, critical look at oneself from time to time. Even if we don`t agree with all of it, we all must read the following:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/010330/yk9fcnll11eyyfsqonoena_4.html

Pakistan works, and India doesn`t?

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/010330/yk9fcnll11eyyfsqonoena_4.html

These Tech Oases Aren`t Transforming India

By Robert J. Dowling

We`re in the business center of the Taj West End hotel in Bangalore, the Silicon Valley of India. Across the lobby, fund managers representing some $40 billion gather to get the latest on Indian information technology plays, courtesy of Goldman, Sachs & Co., which is hosting back-to-back conferences with America`s Asia Society on India`s bright high-tech future.

It`s a beautiful day in mid-March. But all is not well in the IT capital. The phones aren`t working, the laptops aren`t connecting, and tempers are rising. Suddenly, the guy next to me starts flapping his arms like a wounded eagle. ``No, no, no...arrah!`` he shouts as his connection crashes. ``You`re better off going through Pakistan,`` he says. I think it`s a joke until Madhu Kannan, who represents the New York Stock Exchange in Asia, pulls out his number for an Islamabad Internet exchange.

VISION VS. REALITY. Pakistan works, and India doesn`t? What`s going on here? Bangalore, along with emerging tech centers in Hyderabad and Pune, are India`s star business attractions. The software talent and the best schools are there, and foreign money managers, even now, are beating the bushes for promising startups. The New Delhi government would like to make IT a mantra for national renewal. ``IT isn`t just about technology, it`s a mass movement for making a new India,`` declares the government`s Information Technology Minister, Pramod Mahajan, a rising political star who was previously the country`s Information & Broadcasting Minister.

He talks about doubling the number of software engineers and using technology to modernize everything from manufacturing to agriculture. It`s a sweeping vision. But truth is, it`s mostly wrong. As with most things concerning tech today, the hype greatly outstrips the reality. India`s tech business isn`t really about benefiting India.

It`s an export business that amounts to only about 1.5% of its economy. Reaching the government`s goal of 10% or higher, where ordinary Indians could reap a real payoff, would take a political revolution that would require levels of foreign investment akin to what China has experienced. So far, that seems remote.

SELF-CONTAINED PODS. India does have some world-class software companies that aspire to become powers in their own right. But to prosper, they`ve walled themselves up in gated campuses that could just as easily be in the Arizona desert as in the lush southern state of Karnataka. A hot, dusty cab ride to Bangalore`s suburbs tells you why. There, software houses like Infosys and Wipro exist like lunar modules with their own power and communications, security, water, gyms, and wading pools. Infosys even sports a nine-hole golf course.

Here, high-tech India provides around-the-clock software services for many of America`s largest companies, including Sun Microsystems, Oracle, Motorola, General Electric, and Nortel Networks. Their self-sufficiency and intense security --- they are, after all, working with information from archrivals -- mean the only thing they really depend on from the city are the eager graduates they can hire from the top technical universities, who until better housing is built nearby, shuttle back and forth to work in company-owned vans.

Oh, it`s not a bad deal if you`re a techie, and it`s a very good deal for the companies, who pay for a software engineer in Bangalore about one-fifth what they might in California. But in terms of driving improvements for the region, outside of salaries and taxes, there`s little payoff for the local economy.

That`s because as proud as the government is of its tech stars, it has been woefully slow to improve the climate in which they live. Phone lines are owned by the state carrier, VSNL, an encrusted monopoly with no interest in improving service, and the electric power grid is a much worse version of California`s failed system. Bankrupt state companies distribute electricity from plants that aren`t up to current power needs, much less anything close to what the country would need if it drew in the level of foreign investment it aspires to. Worse, about 40% of what`s already distributed is stolen by rural users, who simply strip electricity from main transmission lines.

WEB OF VESTED INTERESTS. It doesn`t have to be this way. Deregulating the phone monopoly fast might bring in any number of outside investors. But both state and national politicians would give up a lot of power. Freeing up electric rates would lure entrants to the industry, too. But that would mean cracking down on farmers, who get their electricity gratis and kick in healthy contributions to their local politicians, who protect them from a crackdown. ``I don`t mind if we move a little bit slowly, even if it takes two years,`` says S.M. Krishna, who, as chief executive of Karnataka, is the virtual mayor of India`s Silicon Valley. He`s nationally regarded as one of the nation`s most progressive leaders. Besides IT, he now wants to make Bangalore a center for biotechnology as well. With an ample supply of smart graduates and a little venture capital, it could happen -- but probably not because of anything he does.

More likely, if India does move more boldly up the tech ladder, it may be only through islands of IT. So the next time you think of Bangalore, don`t think of it as India`s high-tech city. Instead, think of a bunch of floating private oases ringing a declining metropolis. It shouldn`t have to be that way, but under the rules of Indian politics, a distant second best, even if you have star-quality attractions, seems to be not only acceptable -- but preferred.