Is IT the Panacea?

Why can`t both things be done simultaneously?

Development of IT technology hand in hand with the improvement of basic education.

I think the problem Pakistanis face is with organization and selfishness. If we can organize and prioritize ourselves consistently, we can form a system where revenue from technological developments can be cycled into education/health reforms in the country. This isn`t rocket science. It`s a pretty basic principle most developed/developing countries follow.

Expatriates and Pakistani nationals who have the resources and money need to be involved directly with this process.

What we don`t need is a new IT professional upper class living in marble palaces opposite slums, the usual class difference inherent in Pakistan.

Lastly, Thank you for the thought provoking article.

.......yet another brilliant revelation from the hallowed halls of islamabad`s academia ....

``If one is to go by how `e-commerce` has developed in the West, the main thing that has resulted from it is consumerism, with increasing emphasis on global greed. ``

duh? ........... and all this time i thought it was all about providing consumers with choices, managing the supply chain, reducing structural costs, increasing liquidity, increasing productivity, reducing transaction costs, increasing collaboration in design and development, increasing mobility, etc., etc...... thank god mr. daudpota is in pakistan and ariba, siebel, commerce one, ibm, i2, and others are safe ..... they have enough problems without being accused of contributing to the rise of hedonism and consumerism .........

........ it all started with the allama iqbal ``open`` university, preston college (sic), the madrassa at faisal masjid and the hamdard college of alchemy ........

To Mr Daudpota,

Befor getting into the nitty gritty of rupees and paise how about a bold social statement that pakistan is a country that values knowledge and education above every thing else. In that statement a recipient of the nobel prize should come high on the totem pole.

How about a Abdus Salam Institute of Advanced Technology, to honour the only pakistani to receive a nobel prize, and from the chowk posts, I understand he remained a pak citizen till the end.

That would be too much to ask, is it, or it will be too much for the educated on the chowk to accept that the search for IT and modernity has to be subsumed under the ..... If education is search for truth, accepting the reality should be the first step, and how conveniently you have missed that.

Education, even if it is IT does not take place in a vaccuum, it takes place in a social context, a context that values and confers honour on a shaheen over a nobel laurette, sends the clear message. Wake up.

regards and best wishes

jay.

Daudpota,

You were concerned about pakistanis leaving the country after It courses. The following from dawn of today solves your problem. Urdu, the most lyrical, beautifull language for IT education, Java in Qwaali style by Bismilla Galib Khan based for Khidki 2000. Who said pakistanis are unimaginative, they have solved befor being identified by the allegedly educated of pakistan.

``Many students complained that in the majority of the IT institutes teachers had given lectures in Urdu. This scribe visited some of the institutes and found that in the majority of them teachers were delivering lectures in Urdu. Ironically, the language of computer is English and many of the students are interested in working abroad. One finds it incomprehensible how would they cope with the situation once they finish their studies and go for job-hunting.``

regards

jay

Dr. Isa #

Although you have touched the education only.

But recent water crises with its devastating effect on psychology of people.

The results of recent local bodies election.

The voicing of concern by Islamist parties.

The effort to create a king`s party.

All point out to one direction. We need political reform first and foremost.

If our ruling elite thinks that it can compete in the world with participation and effort of people in a puppet way, it is still living in fools paradize.

Although IT is good and is not only demand of time, but also politically correct. But I think without addressing the political issue and participation of masses in nation building, each day is putting us behind one more day.

Scout # 1 According to economic theory there is no selfless act. If conditions are conducive Pakistanis whether living abroad or at home will participate in nation building for themselves and their future generations.

HamidM#2

Dr. Isa is in self exile like most expatriates and ex-patriots Pakistanis for very long time.

May be the article being printed in Islamabad left its flavor.

I think consumerism of foreign items will be the result.

Whether it will be good or bad will depend upon foreign companies`s commission to beaureaucrats, price and choice to people and money to multi nationals.

Kharidne Ko Pesa Bhi Amrika Dey, Maal Bhi Amrika Dey, or Humare Hisse Mein Naa Sirf Maal Balke Qarza Bhi. Maal Hazam. Qarz Baqi.

Nuskha Bohat Aazmooda Aur Accha Hai.

At least children of our beareaucrats can study in Ivy and non-Ivy league schools. And people will earn the money for taxes and ``Qarz Utaro, Aakhrat Sadharo``

THE COMPUTER DIAGNOSIS

A man, who was a non-beleiver in IT, complained to his friend, ``My elbow really hurts, I guess I should see a doctor``. His friend offered, ``Don`t do that!!! There`s a computer at the drug store that can diagnose anything, quicker and cheaper than a doctor. Simply put in a sample of your urine and the computer will diagnose your problem and tell you what you can do about it. It only costs $10.00.

The man figured he had nothing to loose, so he filled a jar with a urine sample and went to the drug store. Finding the computer, he poured in the sample and deposited the $10.00.

The computer started making some noises and the various lights started flashing. After a brief pause, out popped a small slip of paper on which was printed:
You have tennis elbow.
Soak your arm in warm water.
Avoid heavy labour.
It will be better in two weeks.


Late that evening while thinking how amazing this new technology was and how it would change medical science forever, he began to wonder if this machine could be fooled. He decided to give it a try.

He mixed together some tap water, a stool sample from his dog and urine samples from his wife and daughter. To top it off, he masturbated into the concoction. He went to the drug store, located the machine, poured in the sample and deposited the $10.00. The machine again made the usual noise and printed out the following analysis:

Your tap water is too hard. Get a water softener.
Your dog has worms. Give him vitamins.
Your daughter`s on drugs. Put her in rehab.
Your wife`s pregnant. It ain`t yours---get a lawyer.
And if you don`t stop jerking off,

Your tennis elbow will never get better.

Progress in IT should just be looked at in the context of IT alone. It is not going to be, nor is it supposed to be, the direct solution of all the social problems of any country. I am not quite sure why people attempt to assume that it should be. Countries advance through a combination of factors. These include a high literacy rate, a non-feudal system, women`s rights, a secure defense, a just judiciary, etc. and most of all excellent leadership.

IT is not going to be able to create all of the above. However, this does not mean that IT should be sidelined. It should be pursued like it is currently being pursued in Pakistan. The purpose of Information Technology is not to create a stable political system, nor to spread literacy at the primary level in every village. That is the job of the politicians and the ministry of education, respectively. It is not the job of the Ministry of S&T, or of any kind of IT policy. If the Ministry of Education cannot educate kids in villages, it has a lot to do with its own inefficiency. If Pakistan has an unstable political system, it has a lot to do with the corrupt and incompetent practices of the politicians. IT should not be made the scapegoat for that.

The primary purpose of IT in Pakistan, for the moment, should be to earn foreign exchange directly through software exports and indirectly by making Pakistani businesses, govt. etc. more efficient. That`s it (even the USA has not been able to turn IT into a means of mass education yet. So Pakistan shouldn`t be to worried if it cannot do so either). The foreign exchange thus earned can be used to build schools in villages etc., at a later stage.

It`s a simple business concept. One crore rupees if directly spent in building village schools may result in, lets say, a one-shot construction of one hundred schools. If that one crore is spent on creating an IT university which can, lets say, produce five hundred graduates each year, then those graduates could bring in enough foreign exchange to build twenty village schools every year (not just once). Spending money directly on village schools in this case is not the best solution.

Pakistan needs to jump on the IT wagon as quickly as possible, and with as much finances, energy, resources, and sacrifices as required. Every extra penny needs to be put into this. Pakistan needs to put up IT universities from one corner of country to the other. As many as possible. Throw all caution to the wind. Pakistan needs to produce IT graduates like rabbits produce babies. Good ones, average ones, below average ones, young ones, old ones, boys, girls, wives, husbands, great grandmothers...everyone and anyone. It doesn`t matter, for the time being, where these graduates end up. If they all go to the USA, let them go. Provided there are enough of them, within ten years, these graduates will have set up off-shore IT offices in Pakistan which will be exporting software in billions of dollars. At that point, all the IT graduates being produced in Pakistan will have chances to be employed in Pakistan. No Pakistani software company can be successful unless it can export software to the USA and Europe. And expatriate IT professionals are the best links these software companies have with their potential markets.

The biggest mistake Pakistan can make right now is to change from a capatilistic approach regarding IT, under which the most capable (who perhaps maybe the most wealthiest also) are given the opportunity to start the companies that will lead the IT revolution in Pakistan, to a socialist approach where the funds for this revolution are de-allocated and spent directly on welfare projects.

Give a person a fish, you feed him for a day. Give him a fishing pole/teach him how to fish, you feed him for life. IT universities and graduates could become the fishing poles for Pakistan. As long as there are enough of them, a portion of the money they generate will itself indirectly find its way into the Pakistani villages; even if its generated in Silicon Valley. As a personal example, I have far more capacity to contribute to Pakistan financially and technically now, sitting here in San Francisco, then I would ever have had if I had spent the last ten years in Pakistan. The combined market cap of the two Pakistani IT companies listed on the Nasdaq, at their peak, was about 1/5th of the market cap of the whole Karachi Stock Exchange. It is true that most of the money from these market caps ended up with the Pakistani owners and American investors. However, if those two companies stay around and grow in Pakistan, a lot of that money is someday going to trickle down to the village schools.

To paraphrase a famous quote; Pakistan needs to build its IT universities even if every Pakistani, rich or poor, has to eat grass (and even if every graduate from these universities ends up in Germany and the USA).

Opportunities like the current IT revolution come around once in a half a century. If Pakistan misses out on this one due to some mis-guided, though well-intentioned, socialist agenda of using the money allocated for IT on welfare projects, it will be making a huge mistake. One must first generate money and then distribute it. Not the other way around.

I have had a chance to meet Dr. Ata-ur-Rahman and talk to him and a couple of members of his team. I was quite impressed. All the moves they are making are in the right direction. They deserve and need all the encouragement and finances they can get their hands on. Even if they succeed in half of those initiatives, Pakistan will be well on its way in the IT arena.

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Dr. Daudpota,

Thank you for this very relevant article. It is about time it dawned on the powers-that-be that even an IT revotion will hardly solve Pakistan`s basic problems -- as pointed out by scout#1, jay and krashid.

hamidm... you`re getting good at this... latching on to one dubious point in an article and seemingly missing the relevance of the rest...

rgds,

PM

Isa:

I will differ with your understanding on the following. You do not seem to see the full picture here. I guess it may be that we have not caught up with the term ``ebusiness`` and are still latching onto ``ecommerce.`` Something to look into.

``There is also great interest in electronic commerce, which is promised to increase internal and external trade, something we are told is a good thing.If one is to go by how `e-commerce` has developed in the West, the main thing that has resulted from it is consumerism, with increasing emphasis on global greed. It is unclear how our experience will be any different. It seems likely to lead to our elite spending even more money on luxury items from here, there and everywhere.

With government departments in a chaotic state, is there any hope of `e-governance` helping out? Information technology may be wonderful but it
cannot perform miracles. Surely a rectification of the ``manual mess`` is called for before (or at least concurrently with) introducing IT into
government departments. But the previous government was and the present government is unwilling to do so, as can be witnessed by their reluctance to improve efficiency, recognize and reward talent, and downsize themselves.``

While there is this hoopla about IT, there has to be this basic awareness that it`s not everyone`s cup of tea. Something on a different note:

Capital Opportunities: Microcredit in Asia and the U.S.

A Film and Discussion with Entrepreneurs
Thursday, April 5, 2001
6:00 - 8:30 p.m. (Reception at 8:15 p.m.)
Tinker Auditorium, French Institute Alliance Française
22 East 60th Street, New York, NY 10022
Advanced Payment Required to Register.
$5 Students w/ ID $7 Member/NGO $10 Nonmember
To register with a Credit Card, please call the Box Office at (212) 327-9276, or send complete information including your name, address, phone, fax or email address. by fax at (212) 517-8315. If paying with a check, please send payment ten days before the event.

Screening of ``Sixteen Decisions`` followed by a panel discussion with:
-Roshaneh Zafar, Kashf Foundation, Pakistan
-Jayshree Vyas, SEWA, India
-I Gusti Made Oka, Bank Dagang Bali, Indonesia
-Milton Balcacer, Credit Where Credit is Due
-Valerie Davis, Project Enterprise
-Moderator: Nancy Barry, President, Women’s World Banking

Take Care.



AAmir:

Good Correction!

It seemed that the Indian discrepancies were given a Pakistani name.

Take Care.

Howdy y`all

I`m Sorry to take your space Dr Daudpota but I would like to make a request to Chowk Staff, if possible, to designate a special section on the site which relates to all Charitable organisations working in Southeast, i.e. Pakistan, India, Bangladesh etc etc. The spot would include such details as their contacts, history, missions, their systems of functions, methods of fund collections, annual outcomes, personal experiences of people who`ve worked for charities, useful ideas, methods of setting up the organisations etc etc and we could all contribute our own little bit to this knowledge.

I`ve heard many people say that Chowk is a bekaar vela place meant for useless chatter and maybe it`s true but I`m not quiet willing to believe that just yet. A single water molecule is nothing but get enough of them and they become `wet.`

All in favour say `yay`.

Umer Murtaza Phoenix.

Neither IT nor democracy are good for Pakistan.

``LAHORE, Pakistan, March 23 (AFP) -

An extra 6,000 police threw a security blanket over this eastern Pakistani city Friday as political groups vowed to go ahead with a democracy rally on the country`s national day, police said.

Police were posted at all major intersections and ringed with barbed wire the historic Mochi Gate park in the heart of the city to prevent demonstrators from gathering there.

At least 90 people were arrested, including seven senior members of the Alliance for the Restoration of Democracy (ARD), bringing to 27 the number of ARD leaders detained since Wednesday, police said.

Twenty-five female members of the Pakistan People`s Party, including the political secretary to former prime minister Benazir Bhutto, led police on a brief car chase through the city before being taken into custody.

They were seen chanting slogans from three vans before police intervened about one kilometer (mile) from Mochi Gate.

Another 15 women were taken into custody as they appeard on a road and shouted slogans against the regime.

ARD president and protest organiser Nawabzada Nasrullah was also placed under virtual house arrest ``to ensure no one violates the law,`` said Deputy Inspector of Police Javed Noor.

``We will reach the venue (Mochi Gate) no matter whether they seal it with barbed wire or concrete walls,`` Nasrullah told AFP shortly before police surrounded his home.``

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Zahra #11, ``It seemed that the Indian discrepancies were given a Pakistani name.``

Nope, these discrepancies exist in Pakistan as well. One would have to be blind not to think so.

Let`s not shy away from the truth here.

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RSexana # 13 ``Neither IT nor democracy are good for Pakistan.``

Actually both IT (immdiately) and democracy (in the long run) are very good for Pakistan. However, ARD, PPP, and PML are definitely not good for Pakistan. I am surprised you equate democracy with the ARD. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the group of people who constitute the ARD. These people love democracy about as much as you love Pakistan.

Scout:

The example that you brought up was highlighted in New York Times about Banglore. Pakistan has not reached that level yet. I suggest before you utter your random points you realize the context.

Thanks!

Zahra #19,

My ``IT mahal`` example related to Pakistan was a hypothetical, read my post again.

Don`t be so defensive about anything negative about Pakistan.

Zahra #19,

My ``IT mahal`` example related to Pakistan was a hypothetical one, read my post again.

Don`t be so defensive about anything negative about Pakistan.

Studebaker #18

I don`t think Pakistan should let such stories come in the way of its IT program. Every industry goes through phases of rapid advancement and slowdown. At the level of national policy what matters is not short-term cyclic behavior but trends over longer periods of time.

I agree with Scout on this one. Both India and Pakistan need to make a two-pronged attack: one at the forefronts of IT, the other at the basic education level, deploying resources generated from one to feed the other.

The only democracy good for Pakistan is Government of the military, for the military and by the military.

And will remain good until Pakistan will have its Military democratic Government restricted to Northern Punjab.

RSaxena if you can annihilate Pakistan Military without harming people of Pakistan. I will join hands with you in eliminiating the curse on Pakistan for 53 years.

But IT is good for Pakistan. It is politically correct to say these days.

In Tiloon Mein Ub Tel Nahin Hai.

Hamidm #2: Good post, as usual!

ROmair #8: I think you have said it all. We need to look at the benefits of IT with a clear eye. Providing software services at low cost to US and Europe can be a major revenue earner and create some jobs. If the money is wisely spent, it may invigorate the local economy.

However, there are other uses of IT too. If you increase the access to the Internet to a larger percentage of the populace, you can have more transperancy in governance, freer access to information, and lower transaction costs.

For example, Indian Railways web-site provides information on train timings, seat availability, latest RAC/waiting list status of your ticket etc. Probably Pak Railways has something similar too. This is N times more important and useful to the common man than any hi-fi stuff.

Isa,

Another aspect that is totally missing in pakistan is the openeness of the society. In india, many have asked, why did the IT flourish in bangalore and not in the `literate` state of kerala. Kerala is a repressive state, they do not encourage people of other states, it is not a `melting` pot, rather a rigid segmented place, not ideal for the confluence of ideas needed for an emerging human activity.

The image of the leader of the IT uno country, Clinton, drving on the wrong side of the road, after a decoy assisted flight, is not the best of invitation to any one.

regards

jay

Re: Zahra

Chill out sista. I think scout`s post was meant to illustrate a point, not necessarily to be taken literally, word-for-word.

Re: AAmir

What has got you shakin in your shalwar? As for the story, I read an identical story about an incident in Pakistan. But there was a difference. There the daughter was actually killed by the father and brother in a karo-kari festival.

Re: ROmair

In democratic systems, all political parties are allowed to exist and participate in elections. If they are indeed horrible, the voters will take care of them and eliminate them. The voters decide, not the military. Simple concept, isn`t it?

And surely the mighty Pakistani army can ensure fair elections if it wanted to, right? Sure it has lost several wars to India but an election is much easier to manage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/26/technology/26BANG.html?pagewanted=all

March 26, 2001

A New Kind of Software Company for India

By MARK LANDLER

BANGALORE, India — At a time when the term start-up evokes images of crashing stock prices and collapsing business plans — here as much as in the United States — Ashok Soota might not seem to be a man to watch.

But Mr. Soota`s 19-month-old venture, Mind Tree Consulting, has been celebrated by technology analysts and journalists, even though it is privately held and has all of $15 million in sales.

Part of the buzz stems from its pedigree: Mr. Soota, 58, had been the vice chairman of Wipro, one of India`s largest software concerns. He helped lead India`s drive in the early 90`s into the back-office end of the computer business, writing software code for big American companies.

But most of the excitement stems from Mind Tree`s ambition: Mr. Soota wants his new company to leap several links up the technology food chain. Rather than supply programmers for the humdrum work of writing routine software code, he wants to design and build sophisticated computer networks for customers.

``In the early days, there was no need for Indian software companies to differentiate themselves,`` said Mr. Soota, an intense man given to philosophical musing. ``Now, companies are starting to set themselves apart.``

In Bangalore, a southern Indian city that has been called the Silicon Plateau, Mind Tree is viewed as something of a leading indicator. Its success or failure could say a lot about India`s ability to graduate into the more advanced, lucrative realms of the technology industry.

Other Indian companies — Infosys Technologies, Satyam Computer and Wipro itself — are trying to make the same jump. But nobody has set out to do it from scratch, nor with quite the audacity of Mr. Soota.

``By inserting themselves at a higher level in the value chain, they are creating a mind-set in the company,`` said N. R. Narayana Murthy, the chairman of Infosys, arguably India`s flagship software company.

``The question is whether they`ll have credibility,`` he added. ``Where do they get the experience to do higher-level work for clients?``

Despite India`s reputation for superlative code writing, which has won it a blue-chip roster of customers like General Electric and Nortel Networks, some analysts question how successfully the country can compete in the more-rarefied digital fields of strategic consulting or systems integration.

Infosys is eager to offer high-end services, too. But Mr. Murthy is not about to discharge his army of software writers, who work at a sprawling, verdant campus outside Bangalore. His strategy is to continue writing code while gradually building expertise and to appeal for more complex assignments. ``It is a longer-term process,`` he said, ``but it has a higher likelihood of success.``

India`s technology industry will have $6.2 billion in exports this fiscal year, and total sales of about $8 billion. That is extraordinary growth, given that the services industry did not exist a decade ago. But it still accounts for just 2 percent of India`s total economic output.

India also faces rising competition in the low end of the business from other Asian countries like China, Vietnam and the Philippines. With salaries in software companies here rising at more than 15 percent a year, India must expand into new areas that promise a higher return.

``What gives us an edge is that our education system has a bias toward mathematics and engineering,`` said Vivek Paul, the current vice chairman of Wipro. ``But China will be a real threat in a few years.``

Enter Mr. Soota, who had already steered Wipro through a transition from making PC`s and minicomputers in the 1980`s to providing software services. Determined to have a ``third inning`` in his career, Mr. Soota left Wipro in 1999 and began hunting for seed capital to start his own business.

Unknown to him, another Wipro refugee, Subroto Bagchi, had also been promoting the idea of a high-end software consultancy. A partner at a venture capital firm in the United States, Walden International, put the two men together in March 1999 and suggested they merge their plans.

With $9.5 million from Walden and an Indian venture firm, Sivan Securities, Mind Tree Consulting hung out its shingle six months later. From the start, it behaved differently from a typical Indian company.

First, the founders pledged to donate 3 percent of Mind Tree`s after-tax profits to primary education. The company`s initial donation went to a center in Bangalore for children with cerebral palsy.

The company logo, a stylized tree, was designed by the children, and their artwork adorns the walls throughout the headquarters, which are two glass boxes in a clamorous residential neighborhood.

Mr. Soota said he chose not to build a suburban campus, like that of Infosys, because he did not want his employees to spend three hours a day commuting on Bangalore`s horrendous roads. Likewise, he noted, Mind Tree`s philanthropy was part of a broader business strategy.

``It will attract a certain kind of employee, which in turn will attract a certain kind of customer,`` he said.

So far, Mind Tree has won assignments from Lucent Technologies, Avis and BP Amoco. Though the company is cagey about the project`s details, it is designing a Web-based reservations system for Avis, a unit of Cendant. It is also advising Harvard University on ways to promote sports events on the Internet.

In addition to e-commerce projects, Mind Tree advises equipment makers like Cisco Systems, Alcatel and Fujitsu on network management issues. To be close to its mostly American clientele, it has built a development center in Somerville, N.J., and a branch office in Santa Clara, Calif.

``We`re not building a small company,`` said Mr. Bagchi, 44, who plans to move to New Jersey to run those operations. ``We`ve built large successful companies for other people. We`re comfortable with growth.``

So far, Mind Tree has hired 437 employees. It plans to add 1,000 more in the next year. The company has a five-year revenue target of $231 million. Yet Mr. Soota said he would not pursue a stock offering for three years. He also wants to have 100 clients before going public.

In part, he is only being realistic. The appetite for information technology start-ups is as sour here as in Silicon Valley. But, his philosophical side showing, Mr. Soota sees a lesson in starting his company in such an unforgiving climate.

``It`s a good reminder for India`s I.T. industry not to take what we have for granted, or become too greedy,`` he said.

Dr. Isa has made some very valid points. However, as hamidm pointed out his approach is very academic and lags rather than leads in describing the realities of the IT marketplace.

IMHO Pakistan has pretty much lost its battle for IT dominance due to insistence of the government to act as the sole know-all. All the talk about 7 IT universities and how brilliant the technology minsiter and his minions are is bullshit. The government`s foremost responsibility is to provide a secure environment for business and its people. Instead of trying to fill-up the kitty by trying to regulate telecommunication and software businesses, it should concentrate on delineating rules of business in the capital and judicial arenas. At a time when the Pakistani economy is perceived to be one of the five riskiest economies in the world and Morgan Stanley is pulling out its investments from Pakistan(with a corresponding removal from the MSCI index which will have a cascading deleterious affect on the stock market), what Pakistan needs is a semblance of order and stability not a bunch of jaded technocrats looking for their golden parachutes with the esteemed Ata-ur-Rehman in tow. What else can you expect from a bunch of khakis(ex and current) out to discover El Dorado using IT as the preferred form of transportation....

Pakistan will go the Irish way. All the ones with ambition will/have left for greener pastures. When the local populace gets tired of potatoes it will elect some consicable scoundrels that will allow those expatriates to come back in droves and rebuild the shattered economy with the help of the ever hopeful and brilliant common Pakistani. This may take a few decades though.

later

-sac

Q. Isa:

Your careful analysis has a number of excellent observations as well. I extracted the ones I really liked – 3Ps – practical, pertinent and penetrating!

[I believe it could but, for that to happen, there would have to be a radical rethink of national priorities. And this would require our education, science and technology and IT policies to directly address the acute problems that the majority of people face.]

The educational policies must emphasize on the application as well. Education, by itself is nothing. Yes, you can equip a human being with some basics: tools and techniques, but you need to give him/her a roadmap as well.

[In our country, we seem to be forever rushing forward without carefully thinking through many of the critical issues, or fully recognizing the global game plan, which may not necessarily work to our advantage.]

Very ironic, but true!

[It is superficially agreed by all, if not deeply appreciated by those in power, that the foremost problem facing Pakistan today is the general level of education. Without widespread access to the basic right of education at the primary and secondary levels, particularly for girls, we cannot make significant and lasting progress. Coupled with this is the need for teachers ` training, adult education and the use of the ever-pervasive electronic media for transforming minds.]

[Lastly, since one is dealing with a very large system with several unknown factors, it is best to
tread carefully, doing small scale experiments to test our theories, learning lessons, and then scaling up.]

[Unfortunately, the IT policy - like much of our developmental thinking - relies on attacking problems at the `top end`, hoping that benefits that accrue will trickle-down to the lower levels, such as villages and small towns.]

Very Insightful thoughts!

[The lesson is clear: one needs to define training areas where there are Pakistan-specific needs and to put money into training people primarily in these subject areas. This would automatically reduce the brain drain that results from a training program that is geared to the needs of other
countries.]

Why not explore the agricultural needs? There is a significant percentage of population that relies on agriculture. Why not introduce the IT tools and techniques in that area than completely relying on hi-tech and other industries? Going back to your point that many of these problems are sought at ``the top end`` – I feel that’s where the disconnect lies. The ebusiness strategies and tools can be utilized in reengineering the current agricultural processes and improving the exports. How many rice or wheat farmers have access to vendors oversees? How many channels, they have to go through, in order to reach someone? How many can initiate and close deals? Many may have crops ready to rot, but they don’t have a prospective customer to buy. Well, to know your way around you ought to have basic education – fine. Life does not finish there. You ought to find an alternative – Consult! Well, that’s where your IT gurus and magicians must go out and illuminate the agriculturalists. Going back to your point that Pakistan needs to identify its specific needs: Pakistan also needs to leverage its small industries, arts and crafts and agriculture. Many of the hi-fi strategies’ results may not seem applicable in-house, but there is a lot of room to implement such solutions and introduce your world to the rest of the world.

Well, this needs to happen at the governmental level than on individual level. If the top hierarchy is hanging upside down, then that’s an issue. If it is even slightly shaky, the results will trickle down to the lower levels. If it balances itself somehow or other, there will be some hope for such implementations and well thought out plans.

Your article is of academic nature, but in each country you need all kinds of people from all walks of life to create a vision. There have to be thinkers, planners, and strategic advisers who can think through a problem and then the implementers appear – to act on the advised strategy. There are times when the issues are crystal clear and the implementers can take charge. But there are times, when the implementers better not be at the forefront and let the thinkers analyze and evaluate first. In our country, probably a hybrid would work out the best ?


Thanks for a good read!

Pakistani culture is notoriously insular, and their key motivators are their bretheren from across the border in neighboring India. ``If the Indians can do it so can we``. Since the
prevailing mindset for the past 40 years is essential a military one, it is a natural corollary that it is a neanderthal one. Ever hear of the Spartans, ourshining the Athenians....

Having said that, I would also reiterate any education is better than no education, atleast we are coming to realize that the most important resource of any nation is the human one. And any attempt to cultivate the human minds, is bound have spill over effects in our culture. Perhaps they will leave Pakistan for greener pastures, perhaps overseas remittances will increase as a consequence....

Sometimes I think we ned to be pragmatic, Pakistani`s have no sense of collective interests, - you cannot get 6 pakistanis in Silicon valley to form an association to promote networking on a regular and consistent basis, - you expect the morons back home to think logically. Despite the haphazard fashion of IT education, - atleast ther is some promotion of something tangible and progressive. Even it just gets Pakistan connected into the global reality- it might just provide the requiste impetus for he country to move out of the dark ages.

I agree with ``sac`` when he correctly points out that govt is the problem of what ails pakistan, - and it is certainly in a position to screw up anything it attempts in the beaurocratic and corrupt quagmire. The biggest boost that Manmohan Singh And Swetambaram ( sp ?) provided in India was their ``hands-off`` policy in the IT arena. Ataur Rehman`s efforts are like the whore trying to teach the virtues of chastity to a teenager. But perhaps in a perverse sense atleast the whore is not overtly corrupting the said teenager.

From the preview of the latest census in India

The literacy rates among the population seven years and above for the country stood at 65.38% and the corresponding figures for males and females were 75% and 55% respectively.

And a decline in growth of population. The other studies will be coming out soon (urban/rural lifestyles etc).

Could this be the reason......

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Quite an interesting, thought provoking interview of Karen Armstrong on the publication of her new book, `Buddha`

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2001-03-21.htm

excerpts:

Armstrong sees religion as an essential human activity, one we are no more likely to outgrow than we are likely to outgrow art. Like art, religion, in her view, demands to be renewed, if not totally reformulated,

...As Armstrong points out time and again in her book, the Buddha, more than anything else, insisted that human life be predicated on compassion. And that, rhetoric aside, is not a value our society can be congratulated for realizing

`` When I first began the study of religion, I found it difficult to get a handle on Buddhism. It didn`t have any of the things I considered essential to religion, like a supernatural God, a sense of sin, authority figures, doctrines. But the more I got into religious studies, the more I began to think that this approach, this reticence about the divine, had a good deal to recommend it.``

sac #30: ``All the talk about 7 IT universities and how brilliant the technology minsiter and his minions are is bullshit.``

I would be interested in finding out why you think this talk is bullshit? Do you think the technology minister (I am assuming you are refering to the Minister of S&T) is not brilliant? Do you think setting up IT universities in Pakistan is not a good idea? Are you assuming the universities can never be set up, so Pakistan should not even attempt to set them up? Do you think 7 IT universities will not have any effect on Pakistan`s IT scenario (I think they will have a gigantic effect, considering the fact that Silicon Valley is a by-product of Stanford and Berkeley. And India`s IT success is perhaps a complete result of the IT institutions India set up) In my opinion, setting up IT universities should be the no. 1 priority of the Ministry, if not the whole govt. And I believe they have allocated 70% of their budget to it. An excellent move in my opinion.

``Instead of trying to fill-up the kitty by trying to regulate telecommunication and software businesses, it should concentrate on delineating rules of business in the capital and judicial arenas.``

I agree with this. I think deregulation is what is being attempted in S&T in Pakistan. The move is towards privatizaion and deregulation, and not the other way around. I do not know of any private company or institute in the IT arena that is being taken over by the govt. Do you know of any? However, attempts are being made to privatize PTCL etc. Something the previous govts. should have done.

``a bunch of jaded technocrats looking for their golden parachutes with the esteemed Ata-ur-Rehman in tow``

Could you point out who these jaded technocrats are and what kind of golden parachutes they will be getting. Dr. Ata struck me as the furthust thing from a jaded technocrat. Considering that he is a chemistry professor by profession, his knowledge of IT was extremely impressive. That is the sign of a truly intelligent person, i.e. someone who has detailed knowledge and understanding of areas outside his/her field of study. His core team consists of private sector people, who could probably make a hell of a lot more money if they moved to the USA. The only beaurecrats I came across were the ones in places like PTCL, and the old hands within the ministry. From what I could tell, Dr. Ata was trying his best to actually take the beaurecracy out of S&T in Pakistan. Obviously, him or his team did not mention any golden parachute they may be waiting for. But I would be interested in finding out about one, if you have any information.

``What else can you expect from a bunch of khakis(ex and current) out to discover El Dorado using IT as the preferred form of transportation....``

To the best of my knowledge, there isn`t a single military person in Dr. Ata`s team. And he seems to be calling all the shots. It is however encouraging to see that this govt. had the foresight to appoint a scientist as the head of S&T, and not an interior decorator or stud farmer, like the previous govts. It is also good to see that Pakistan`s current IT policy has been put together by the private sector. And it is heartening to see that the govt. has dramatically (multiple-fold) increased the S&T budget for Pakistan. And it is heartening to see that the actual moves are towards deregulating and privitizaiton and human resource development.

As far as creating a stable economic environment goes, that is a given. It is true under all circumstances. But creating stable economic environments in a country like Pakistan (or in any third world country) is much easier said than done. There is no Aladin`s lamp that can do so in a day. Pakistan should not wait until there is a stable environment before it starts development in IT. There may never be a stable economic, or any other kind of environment in Pakistan. However, IT is one area, where progress can be made without too stable of an economic/political environment, due to its off-shore development model which is completely human resource based, and not infrastructure based. The only requirement is a lot of IT graduates. That`s it. India had one of the biggest basketcase economic environments in the world (a much bigger basketcase than Pakistan), with decade to decade growth rates of only 3% to 3.5% when it started building its IT institutions. Even in the late 80s, major US publications thought India was a lost case. However, now the environment has stabilized and all the S&T universities set up during the old days, and begining to pay off.

I think Dr. Ata and his team are on the right track. They have the right ideas. Whether they will be successful or not, is something we will have to wait and see. But it is heartening to see that at least someone in Pakistan, ``get`s it`` for a change in IT. Even if they don`t end up being successful does not mean they should not even make any attempts. Their responsibility is only in their own area. If the rest of Pakistan goes down the drain, it`s not their fault. What can Dr. Ata do about Morgan Stanley?

``Pakistan will go the Irish way.``

If Pakistan goes the Irish way, at least in IT, I will be the happiest person in the world. Ireland currently is one of the largest, if not the largest exporter of software, outside the US. IT has had a huge effect on its economy.

The solution to solving the problems of ten poorly functioning departments in Pakistan is not to close down or discredit the one that has the potential to function propertly. If Pakistan can, despite all its historical instabilities, set up an export-level arms industry including sophisticated aircraft and submarines, become a cotton producing and textile giant, set up multiple medical colleges and engineering universities (when there were only one or two at the time of partition), build and test nukes, build some of the biggest dams in the world etc., then I don`t see why it cannot make progress in IT. All it needs is the right leadership (a rarity in the past) in place. Which, at least in the are of IT, in my opinion, it has in place now.

I read recently that Pakistan is planning to `produce` 100,000 software engineers per year. This is a scary thought for India which I believe produces only 75,000 per year currently, despite its larger population and number of universities.

If Pak is successful, then they may be able to offer the same services at lower prices, not good for India. Already China is gearing up in English and will offer major competition to India in a couple of years. If other neighbours like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka wake up and get their act together, Indian software industry will be seriously challenged.

On the other hand, if Pak does not succeed in its aim, say its quality is not good enough, I wonder what the reaction will be from all those hopefuls who would be studying IT at Pak universities...

PM #39

Some ammunition for you (as well as me)

These days Islamist are rationalizing that destruction of Buddha is in Islamic spirit and right. All the Maulvis of Pakistan are unaminous in this.

For centuries this thing was never realized to be un-Islamic.

Moreover Mahmud Ghaznavi so fond of destroying idols to far flung areas did not found time to break the idols in his own backyard.

(I think FerozK analysis is right in every respect inspite of many criticism on his article. May God rest his soul in eternal peace. Bechara married Ho Gaya. Haq Mughfirat Kare Ajab Azaad Mard Thaa.

RSaxena:

``On Illustrating a point``

I will agree with your reasonable explanation than Scout`s usual rantings. To illustrate a point is one thing; but you also need to read how the point fits in the whole argument. To me, it does not. Mainly, because we are not even slightly close to that step.

I will go a step further here. The writer is stating a dilemma - Pakistan cannot keep its ``intelligent resources`` in-house due to the external lucrative options. He is focusing on the current issues and proposing on how they should be handled. Spending the money - in the ``required`` areas than introducing the whole IT paraphernalia to the students - is one point. In short, targetting the key areas only! For instance, if the government departments use Oracle - focus on training the individuals in that particular package than looking into other things[Just because they are cool or will add to the individual`s knowledge]I am being very specific here now.

There is no mention that we have reached that far where we can imagine to build any castles in the air. There is no infra-structure in place. Her argument appeared like a joke. Someone who has no clue on how that system works. And this is not the first time that I have come across such examples from her side.

I understand that she was talking about - what we do NOT need. Ironically, beggars are not the choosers! You have to put a viable structure first and then chant about your options. There is nothing there! That`s where the writer is trying to create a plan or a vision! Also, education does create different levels of hierarchy in any society. You cannot take it out of your system. That`s a completely different social issue. What should motivate a man to rise from the slums and sit in a decent office? Education and a Roadmap to utilize it. Why does a farmer want his son to acquire higher education? I had a lot of friends[men and women both] who after acquiring higher education raised their standard of living and outlook towards life. I have written the stories of quite a few how they made it. It comes from self-realization!

I can see why you got perturbed. Did you watch the play that I told you to ? :-)

On another note, I will correct myself: it was Hyderabad and not Banglore that was mentioned in New York Times.

When the excited NY Times` reporter interviewed a rehri- wala/cycle-wala in the vicinity[to gather their perspective on the companies and the work they were doing], he was quite disppointed - the laymen never knew anything about what went on behind the big glass doors and what were the high-rises doing in the middle of nowhere. Well, in a way, the reporter was a dud to have unreasonable expectations. Ironically, the american masses, themselves, have a very low level of awareness - having such an expectation from a commoner of a third world ``developing`` country[no offense implied]was probably asking too much.

Take Care.

AAmir,

Thank you for posting so many `bad` news about india. Please note that they are all from indian news papers, indian reporters, they want other indian and the world to know so that dealings are based on reality. That also gives us an opportunity to correct, change and to evo;ve. By hiding everything, you are not telling the truth. Pakistan is not such a terrible country that Clinto has to use decoy aircraft, the first time in the history of modern diplomacy. If people dont know, they anticipate the worst.

Now tell me AAmir, what is the legal framework under which honour killers are not charged. I know killing is a crime in pakistan, what is the necessary and suficient condition for it to be a honour job. Truth sets you free. Dont talk of corruption blah blah.

regards

jay

Isa,

Many of the IT companies from abroad will welcome the following news from pakistan, and will rush to set up their offices. By the way, in pakistan IT stand for something else, in line with the following news. From deccan herald of today

Foreign missions in Pak warned against attacks

ISLAMABAD, March 26 (PTI)

Pakistan military regime has cautioned all foreign missions and multinational companies against possible terrorist and sectarian attacks during the month of Muharram begining today and advised them to take extraordinary security measures, The News daily reported.

The Pakistan`s Interior Ministry in a letter circulated among the diplomatic missions and the multinational companies has advised them to take extraordinary security measures during Muharram as they could be the likely target of terrorist attacks, the daily said today quoting sources.

The official letter referred to specific warnings from the intelligence agencies, which said that the foreign missions and companies could be the foremost targets of subversive activities.

The intelligence agencies have also warned that enemy agents and anti-social elements have decided to cash in on the prevailing sectarian tension, particularly after the recent incidents of Hangu, Sheikhupura and Lahore and are likely to strike during Muharram, it said.

``We have been asked to restrict our outdoor movements during Muharram, refrain from entertaining uninvited visitors, and keep particular vigil against explosive devices,`` the daily quoted an officer of a multinational company at Lahore.

It said similar letters have been sent to the multinational offices and establishments from the respective district heads of the police, asking for tight security arrangements during the Muharram season.

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Zahra #42,

So should I stop writing my opinion here based on what you think is right or wrong? What is the purpose of an interact board? Is it only for Pakistani infrastructure analysts, or the general public?

We all interact here with different ideals and opinions, and dismissing someone`s ideas in the manner that you do shows your ``intellectual`` snobbery, not wisdom.

You could learn a thing or two from bahmad and Ras Siddiqui, two people I respect here the most, whom I`ve never seen being rude or patronizing to anyone, regardless of their age.

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Re: Zahra

I agree with your post on ``illustrating a point.`` But (I can`t believe I am defending scout of all people) I think the idea she was trying to communicate was that any IT success should not benefit only a few who are already wealthy anyway - this polarization of wealth is a common feature in South Asia.

And no, I haven`t seen the play. Quite frankly I am uncultured when it comes to enjoying Broadway plays. Reminds me of nautankis we had in India. At least those had neat tricks and slapstick humor besides the random song-n-dance in funny costumes.

Scout, please defend yourself.

re ROmair #36:

The gist of my post as Syed Ahmed correctly inferred was simply to point out the inadequacy of government machinations when it comes to effecting real change be it economic,political or social. Now to get back to your post.

IT universities be they 7 or 700 is the sort of brain wave you`d expect from the cause and effect mandarins of IMF or ministry of science of technology. Indians did well in IT because they are naturally good at math and science not becuase there are assembly lines of oracle programmers in the Indian heartland. The concept of setting up an IT university is akin to setting up vocational schools to teach Autocad or car-repairs. If one really wants to develop skills required in the IT arena, strengthen the basic educational delivery mechanisms. Divert the 70% of the budget demarcated for IT to improving/setting up engineering schools across the country. The 7 IT universities will end up as nothing more than glorified trade schools teaching Java for the rest of their existence while the rest of the world moves on to the next big thing. I`ll give you an example of vocational institutes set up in various Paksitani cities with German assistance. These institutes have been teaching trades like refrigeration and gas welding since the 70s. Some of them barely enroll 5 or 10 students per year with staffs that is easily in the 100s!! The 7 IT universities will become white elephants teaching outmoded skills with no relevance to the marketplace. If you are insistent that we should have Oracle assembly lines then let the private sector do that. They have to make money(unlike the govt.). They can be more nimble and agile in conforming to the rapidly changing environment.

As far as naming `jaded` technocrats. My dear name one who isn`t? My allusion to golden parachutes was in context of the groupies that surround his excellency the technology minister. Anyone remember the golden days of power generation and deregulation in the Benazir era? There is an eerie similarity between those times and this one. The Shahid Hassans of those days have been replaced by equally smooth operators swarming around the powers that be. For illustrative purposes read the filings by the SEC against one of our Bill Gates who happened to be the CEO of Enpointe technlogies. The ``dedicated`` team of professionals that surrounds the erstwhile minister is not on some noble mission of paying back the motherland. Wait for a few more months till stories of the exaction of their pound of flesh start appearing publicly.

``What can Dr. Ata do about Morgan Stanley?``

If only he(and I suspect you) understood that, that would make for a very happy ending. A rot set at the macro level with the khakis running the country directly or indirectly since its inception cannot be stemmed by a mere Professor of Chemistry. I am glad at least you recognised that an expert in one area can be equally knowledgeable in another but he is fighting the wrong enemy with the wrong set of weapons.

I diagree with your(and most Pakistanis) obsession with finding the ``right`` leadership. Leadership cannot come out of kakul or Harvard. Everyone in todays age is a leader of one. No one else knows better about running my life than myself. Get government out of the life of every Pakistani and let him figure out his own destiny. It can`t be as bad as it has been for the last 53 years...can it?

As for my Irish example, I was comparing Pakistan to the sick man of Europe before its present prosperity. I hope and pray you are right as for its future.

later

-sac

Just received the following email, from a friend, who received it from his sister, who is a member of some committe related to IT development for women for Dr. Ata. Apparently it is related to a volunteer women`s IT group.

So for the Pakistan women who complain that enough isn`t being done in Pakistan for their fellow women, here is your opportunity to volunteer. The address to contact, that I was given, is stars@comsats.net.pk.



friends, this is just the initial brainwave regarding the initiative by the govt. to put women in the forefront of IT devp. in the country and to have them be identified as a significant resource group. detailed terms of reference will evolve. the email below has been put together by a member of the IT commission who is guiding this effort.

pls. comment and, more specifically, pls. identify/forward to pakistani women (and men) who you feel can contribute in a concrete manner, such as working on the development of a website, or providing specific guidelines for growing and using women`s talent in this area. the best candidates would be people who have had specific experience of developing this resource in other countries or in other projects.

i look forward to your comments.

samina



-----Original Message-----

From:

Ladies:

We have been discussing this very important issue since a long time but no real progress has come about so far. You may however see in different interviews by Dr. Atta ur Rahman, that he is determined to bring Women into the forefront!

Get ready for a long e-mail!

Essentially, (I believe) this has been due a lack of ownership by the very people concerned with this sector! In the meantime, several working groups, forums, task forces are operational or are being formed. All these, initially, are volunteer groups who help shape the direction and steer this to a project state. The need to make it a volunteer based initiative, is to make the participation agonistic to the official titles, pressures and hopefully bias toward individual institutions.

We have groups (some under formation) on:

Health, Agriculture, GIS, Chip Design, Telecommunications, Educational content and Networks, Call Centres, M.T.,Computers in Schools..., Network security, e-Government, e-commerce, Venture Capital, Internet - PISOC , Operating systems - LINUX, Urdu & Regional Languages

...and now Women in IT!

The way this is Institutionalized and implemented is that

Inputs taken from key professionals and business people - predominantly, the private sector

Then converted to standard Government processes for implementation

Implementation is done via Provinces, concerned Ministries, institutions eligible for this or using the a transparent process, implemented via the Private Sector

I believe that this is a very powerful combination, hopefully, providing ownership, continuity, sustainability and transparency.

The most recent example is the formation of the Urdu and Regional Language Software development Forum. This is now going from its volunteer phase to actual implementation and an initial sum of Rs. 29 M is being provided for it.

The volunteer group essentially spends their own time and only those with a passion for the task, continue. I have seen may initial enthusiasts fall by the wayside, when concerted work is needed.

Ms. Shazia has offered to volunteer to lead this effort. She has excellent credentials to her credit. She is Psychologist, is very IT literate, knows her way around the Government and methods, commands respect of her peers and is liked by her students. She has also worked on projects like Multimedia in distance Learning, etc. She is the Registrar at the Fatima Jinnah Womens` University.

However, like I said earlier, this has more to do with personal commitments than the institution the person comes from. But in this case it certainly helps the effort and the University, since there will be a pool of girls and women available who could perhaps be involved in Projects which help both in the training as well as in providing support to your initiative. Fatima Jinnah University is lead by a very dynamic person, Prof. Dr. Najma Najam and that certainly helps!

I am copying this mail to a limited number of women who have been in the loop sometime or the other and I believe are quite committed to the idea. The best thing will be is to make fully functional teams in each city and co-ordinate via the team in Islamabad. E-Mail is the best medium. Perhaps you may like to set up a Web page to get inputs as well as to spread the word.

Zuneria Durrani has offered to head the Karachi chapter and perhaps you can get key people in different cities. One word of caution, do ask the people who volunteer if there are any needs for them to get some form of NOCs from their companies and organizations, since this may be a stumbling blocks in their participation. But do clarify the fact that no one will actually represent anyone, but herself (or himself, if your honorary members who are males!).

The first step is to write the Terms of Reference and I will provide you templates as we go along.

This is a very exciting task but will need many hours of selfless labour with only the promise of having contributed your bit for helping Pakistan come out of the current mess it is in.

Good Luck

Scout:

I sincerely appreciate your sermon!

Probably, you should LEARN how to interact by ``illustrating`` your point than yelling and rudely[uncouthly]putting it forth. I find that to be a hallmark of your interactions. Sorry, it is not worth my time to engage in a discussion with you! Different priorities! Humor is one thing; but tolerating rudeness and uncouthness is not my cup of tea. Probably, you should try to apply your sermon to your ownself first!!! It may help.

E.O.D!
Take Care.

Studebaker

You are not all wrong about The Atlantic. It does publish long articles. Also, some of their writers are pro-Israel.

Similarly, many Indian teachers do seem to use the length of a written submission as a measure of its worth [though, I doubt many students in India or elsewhere often turn in work of the quality matching that of the Atlantic articles :)! ]

Nonetheless, Karen is well-versed in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. She has written highly sympathetic accounts of Islam and Prophet Muhammad. If she has been criticized for anything it has been for being too quick to defend everything Islamic. Don`t dismiss her so soon.

Zahra #51,

Where in my post #1 did I ``yell?``

I calmly gave my opinion which you obviously didn`t like (so be it).



I don`t believe I was rude to you, until you started calling my posts rantings for some reason.

You never had a problem with them before.

Anyway, I agree to end this discussion since it is going nowhere but down.

Rsaxena #49,

Please stop before some idiot comes and twists your defense into something else. And I don`t have to defend myself, the message in my post is crystal clear. And you know what, the people who wanted to get it, GOT it, and the people who didn`t (Zahra) passed it off as a ranting. I think I`m ok with it, it`s her prerogative. I don`t agree with some of her posts, but I refrain from making a scene out of it, or putting her down. Anyway....

My apologies to Q. Daudpota for these stupid series of interacts.

Re: scout

``Please stop before some idiot comes and twists your defense into something else.``

Right, sorry about that. Was just too tempting to pass up but I should know better.

Tum log jaano aur tumhara kaam jaane.

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studebaker #56

What you say about Jews, Christians and Hindus may all be true. Your ability to smell words from Organiser,Sword of truth,Hindu Net ,Hindu Org,Hindunity may also be most praiseworthy.

But studebaker, the article has nothing to do with Islam - it is about India and Buddhism. And since you are commenting upon it with some passion, will it not be better if you carefully read the article once? This one is NOT a long article.

To make it easier, the url is:

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2001-03-21.htm

Romair[Post 50]:

Thanks for the informative post. It would be great if you can also post this information at www.iopwe.org`s forum - of course with your following comments:

``So for the Pakistan women who complain that enough isn`t being done in Pakistan for their fellow women, here is your opportunity to volunteer. The address to contact, that I was given, is stars@comsats.net.pk.``


Take Care.

Zahra and Scout

I am sick and tired of the rantings from both of you. When am I gonna see some action? I think both of you need to teach each other a good lesson. Keep in mind that I am always on your side-right behind you, watching.

Amir # 55

Honor killings part of Islamic jurisprudence? Is that the kind of `pure justice` that fills you up with pride?

Also, why compare Pakistani newspapers with Sanskrit texts? Won`t a better comparison be with Indian newspapers?

I share your admiration of Razia Sultan. As an Indian, I consider her to be an illustrious part of my heritage.

AAmir 55,

Let us be clear, I do not remember casting a value judgement on honour killing, I always asked the legal mechanism of implementation, what charecterises honour killing and who is the arbiter of it. If pakistan wants to have that system, like killing for self defence, so be it. What is of interest to me is the legal premise and the legal identification of it. I do remeber, several pakistanis including several women were in support of honour killing and that famous incident in the office of Asma jahangir was executed by the mother, a qualified doctor. Look I have no problems with honour killings and it could have several beneficial effects, definitely a sense of power of the judge and the executioner.

Female child killing is rare in india, but more prevalent is the neglect and death resulting from lack of medicene and timely care. In a land of vegetarians, with no ready access to guns like in pakistan, killing has to be a primitive close quarters affair, which most indians dont have the gall. I note that pakistanis are more advanced in this, keep it up.

Most of your post was a defence of honour killing, which to say the least was unnecessary. But if you care to divulge the details, is it authorised by some one, can it be a spur of the moment, can a man also be executed for bringing dishonour. The last one I have a personal stake, I am still alive after several decades after marrying a non-hindu which was a dis-honour to the family. Thank god, what ever be thy name, for being a non pakistani, or is that thanks mis placed.

regards and best wishes.

jay

Isa,

IT, Learning from india.

Any planner of IT in pakistan should visit bangalore, the IT park near White field in bangalore. It is a towering glass and aluminium structure, manicured gardens, better than many I have seen in other countries, a temple of modern india, as nehrue would have called. The IT park is a tribute to the technology, modernity and everything `rational`.

Next to the IT park is a marble/sandstone granite structure, new, resembling some grant palace of the yester years, and that is Cardiac and Nuerology hospital by Satya sai baba. All of the treatments are free, there are no papers, fully computerised, it is a paperless, cashless hospital. The force behind it is Sai baba, the god, who used make ash out of nowhere, the most `irrational`. The two exist side by side, the rational and the irrational, the scientific and the magical, the profound and the absurd.

So, what shall we have next to the 7 IT unis in pakistan, madrassa, jihadic schools where the youg study like automatoms, and at the ripe age of sixteen, with a name change to Abu xyz, a few rdx tied to the chest, seek death where ever it comes, on condition that as he takes the one way trip to heaven, a few kafirs fall to the hell.

Profoud and the profane, till me which is profane.

regards

jay

Zahra #58: Somenoe already put it up on iopwe.org.

I am waiting to see how much response these requests get from affluent Pakistani women. That will be a good indication of whether Pakistani women just complain about the condition of other Pakistani women, or whether they are actually willing to do anything about it.

Romair:

I never saw the message on the bulletin board. Where did you see it? Also, I am on the mailing list so never got to see it there as well. Are we talking about the same group?

International Organization of Pakistani Women Engineers[IOPWE]

You should try to submit that in the ``Announcements Section`` as well.

Well, I am an active member. I can do all the stuff that I am telling you on my own too, but I won`t. I think as you introduced it, therefore U should be the torchbearer :-)

If you are feeling uncomfortable posting the message on a women`s forum - that is something else. In that case, I will be more than glad to take over :-)

On a serious note: the number that will respond all depends on people`s personal motivation.

How many men are involved in country-development activities? All? Few? Many? Some? 50%? 35%?

PS: I have participated in quite a few brain-storming sessions at the NY-Consulate and I can tell you few observations if you`ll be interested to know.

Later.

Re:Reply #: 62

jay

``Next to the IT park is a marble/sandstone granite structure, new, resembling some grant palace of the yester years, and that is Cardiac and Nuerology hospital by Satya sai baba. All of the treatments are free, there are no papers, fully computerised, it is a paperless, cashless hospital. The force behind it is Sai baba,...``

This is just between me and Jay,so others need not respond. Jay, i visited Puttaparthi,the holy place where Sai baba lives and was wonderstruck by the spiritual aura that emanated from him and felt very blessed. There is also a superspeciality hospital at Puttaparthi which among other things performs free Cardiac Bypass operations (i am told 2 to 3 per day). Highly qualified doctors from U.S and other places volunteer their services.

regards,

sridhar

Zahra #64: ``You should try to submit that in the ``Announcements Section`` as well......

``If you are feeling uncomfortable posting the message on a women`s forum - that is something else. In that case, I will be more than glad to take over :-)``

Actually, I did not post the message on the iopwe forum myself. It was posted by the person who sent it to me. He posted it there, before he sent it to me. I will contact him and ask him what he did with it.

As far as feeling uncomfortable posting a message on a women`s forum, I would have to say quite the contrary. Both my friend, his wife, and I are member`s of iopwe (we attended a function, paid some money, and were told we were members in some sort of a capacity; I am not quite sure which capacity). However, like nearly all Pakistani technical organizations (contrary to popular beliefs, there are quite a few now, popping up all over the place), the iopwe website has been stagnant forever. These organizations tend to start with a lot of enthusiasm, get going pretty quickly, reach a plateau and then freeze (at least their websites).

Hopefully, you will see the message in a day or two.

jay #62: The IT revolution in India is definitely quite impressive. I have hired and recommended the hiring of quite a few Indian IT people myself; some straight out of India. This progress has little to do with any structure put up in India, and more to do with the number of IT graduates produced by India. There are private individuals in Pakistan who own structures like the one you have described. Physical structures are never an accurate description of the state of a society.

However IT progress alone does not define a country. A country is defined by the views of its people. And as long as their are people in India with similar views as yours, I do not think Pakistan has too much too worry about. In fact it is people with such views within India who, in my opinion, are Pakistan`s greatest asset.

The more I read your remarks, the more my admiration for Jinnah increases. He was a man with a great amount of foresight.

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Romair:

It brings me heartiest felicity to know that you were able to attend the function. I could not make it due to pending engagements and felt really bad. I have been affiliated with the group since it was a year or so old. Led it till it was almost 5.0 years old [Kind of nurtured and took care of it for 3.5 years till it learnt to stand, sit and walk]. So my attachments are very deep with even the name of the group.

The new website came into existance just last year. So it`s in its infancy. Personally, I think it is very effective as compared to what it was previously. The previous one was more like informational than interactive[rarely got updated]. It was my dream to have an interactive forum on our website. In that respect, the current team is doing a great job to have the site updated quite regularly.

We have accomplished a number of projects in the past and there are quite a few interesting things underway by the current regime.[Well, I always wanted to be a battalion leader in the army. It was a childhood dream. Kash! :-( Just to level set you on my usage of ``regime``]

On an ending note, each organization and group has its phases. Some times you are focusing more on the work you are doing than the efforts you are putting in publicity or marketing. Sometimes, it is not the priority. Remember it is all volunatry work. Let me ask you something - the kind of propaganda we hear sitting in the West about Pakistan and the way women are treated there - Can you even think of that country producing such independent women who are out in the world in science and technology? The very existance of this dynamic group portrays a positive image of our country. And that`s