Obsession with Borderline Issues

Tahmed321 #499: Like yourself, recently I also had a firsthand experience of observing the situation at ground zero. All I can say is that you might have a different set of markers or indicators to establish a more positive overall picture than me. I see the devolution plan as an exercise to decrease the power of any would-be civilian administration of the future. It is a mean to an end. You may see it as a mean to empower people at grass-root level wheras I see it as a mean to increase the role of military in the administration and decision making. I also see it a reaction to the powers accumulated in NS whereby he was able to sack COAS, at least for few hours. They want it other way around as has been the case in the past, COAS being able to sack highest civilian authority, not for few hours but for many years at a time. A weakened Prime Minister is easier to manipulate or kicked-out, if necessary.

It is going to be the same people coming to power, same PPP, PML, ANP, BNP or MQM, as nazims and other office holders as indicted by the recent local bodies elections. It is same old ``Basic Democracy`` of Ayub Khan in a new name. I agree that they are dead serious about it. Why shouldn`t they be when it benefits them most.

Any faith in the present set up must be carefully judged by comparing it to the one they overthrew. Getting rid of ``bad`` is no guarentee for good in itself. Bad also provides an opportunity to opportunists to move in (disregarding the law of the land) under the pretext of getting rid of bad or cleaning up the system.

So how is the performance of current honest administration is faring at home and abroad, compared to the bad and corrupt one. Is performance of Dr. Ishrat Hussain better than Dr. Yakoob? Is Abdul Sattar better than Sartaj Aziz? How good is the performance of Interior Minister, Moeen Uddin Haider comparing the law and order situation? What is the exchange rate of rupee? What is the growth rate of the economy. Where is all the money they have saved from bumper cotton and wheat crops and the usual 10 percent of GNP eaten up by corruption? What is inflation rate? If they are a failure on all these accounts, how can one trust and except them to be successful in empowering people? Sir, everybody overthere at the top is to milk the system to their best advantage. Some make commissioins, some getting loans and then defaulting intentionally and some keep accumulating plots, as if their previous holdings are not sufficient to have an affluent retirement life? The difference is that one gets the plots by lawful means and grabs power by unlawful overthrow, the other makes money by unlawful means and grabs power by lawful elections. The urgency of providing apt leadership is lost somewhere in this maze.

Mr. SameerJB

In one of your posts below you are questioning the parentage of Pakistani Muslims. May I dare to ask once again the purpose and intent of your thesis titled ``Obsession with borderline issues`` with the emphasis on ``whose?``

Sameer JB: On the devolution plan, when I was in Pakistan earlier this month I met some people who were involved in it. It seems like the government is quite serious about it. It is certainly a potentially very powerful way to bring some rationality and accountability in government and put power where it belongs - with the people. While the US Senator is right in warning of the pitfalls, that does not mean we should not do whatever we can to support this exercise.

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krashid #492

``Partition was basically forced on Muslims by the similar attitude I am seeing on this board against Farzana Warsi and Studebaker.``

Rashid Mian, kindly try to justify this attitude also

http://www.dawn.com/2001/04/22/top14.htm

``Kashmiris hold violent protests BY Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, April 21: Violent protests raged across Srinagar on Saturday against a pictorial depiction of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) in the Time magazine, overshadowing a crucial Hurriyat meeting.. several protesters, mostly students, were arrested in different parts of the city following clashes with police ``

Anything happens anywhere in world, why is it that muslims in this subcontinent start reacting?

Time publishes something and it becomes a muslim-polic issue.

When Bhutto, a pakistani muslim was hung by Zia, a pakistani muslim, muslim mobs attacked temples in India. Mobs attacked christians too as poor Tara Masih was a christian.

Please correct yourself. Partition happened due to this attitude of muslims.

#Studebaker

--

-- ``Studebaker, what are your complaints against India? Is it

-- Hinduism? Is

--

-- it the Hindus? Can you let me know.``

--

--

-- No ,ITS NOT HINDUISM

--

--

-- Indian muslims lived with HINDUS for 1200 yrs

--

--

-- & hindus lived with muslim without anti islamic posture till 1857

--

--

-- So something must have been introduced from OUTSIDE

--

--

-- Indegenously India WAS never like you see it NOW

--

-- .WHY???

--

You are right that Hindus and muslims had no problems till

very late in the 19th century. But I dont think that

``something`` was introduced from outside. The beast was right

within us. The problems really started

when religious identities started to crystallize into

political identities. Earlier, it was never like that.

I dont want to get into the game of

who started it all or what led to what, but it has been one

escalation of hostilities upon another with

the salient points in the timeline being : Formation of

congress, Sir Syed`s ideas, increasing economic/political

rift between hindus and muslims, Iqbal`s Allahabad

address(which boils my blood even today), Jinnah`s Two-Nation

theory, Failure of congress to really appreciate the

insecurity of a section of muslims, Lahore resolution, pakistan

resolution,

direct action day, the carnage of partition riots, Independence,

riots of 60s/70s/80s/90s, babri masjid, kashmir militancy,

BJP`s ascent to power.

Deep down, i suspect, Hindus are plain scared of

Muslims, scared of their political choices, their

loyalties, their strong religious identity, their

proselytizing religion and even their

mohallas(ghettoes????)...

The fear gets magnified when muslims express a soft corner

for pakistan, when irresponsible elements burst crackers for

pakistan`s cricketing wins, when muslims speak in glowing

terms about murderers and marauders of the past....

This is what leads to the dominant attitude of apathy for

muslim grievances and suspicion of muslim intentions at best and dreams

of ``The Final solution`` by the minority extremists at worst.

This is why Hindus seek solace in the fact that APJ Abdul

Kalam reads and translates the gita, but would`nt care two hoots if

general

manekshaw had some strong reservations against the vedas.

The silver lining in this gloomy

scenario is that I believe members of both communities

genuinely want to bury the hatchet and move along. One other positive

aspect is that the communal divisions are largely limited to the middle class

and the urban areas. The villagers want just what they have wanted from time

immemorial : roti, kapra aur makaan.



-- And Yehudi(Israelis)[I purposely dont like to use Jews b/c that is

-- sacred to me].became friends of India & muslims enemy???

--

This is plainly wrong. India has mutually beneficial

relations with all muslim nations except you know who. And

after decades of friction due to our support for palestinian

cause, ties with Israelis are being gingerly normalized

primarily for defence purchases. There might be enemies in

international diplomacy but there are no ``friends`` only mutually

beneficial relationships.

--

--

-- Why a nun can be covered from head to toe and she`s respected for

--

--

-- devoting

--

-- herself to God, but when a Muslimah does that, she`s ``oppressed``?

--

--

-- Why a Jew can grow a beard and he`s just practicing his faith, and

-- when

--

-- a

--

-- Muslim does that, he`s an extremist?

--

--

-- When a western woman stays at home to look after the house and

-- kids

--

-- she`s

--

-- sacrificing herself and doing good for the household, but when a

-- Muslim

--

-- woman does so, she ``needs to be liberated``?

--

Valid points which need detailed discussion but i just want to

remind you that these are

worldwide attitudes/misconceptions and not limited to India.

--

-- Why is it that when a child dedicates himself to a subject, he has

--

-- potential, and when a child dedicates himself to Islam, he is

-- hopeless?

--

Because we fear he might be indoctrinated for you know what.

--

-- When a Christian of a Hindu kills someone, religion is not

-- mentioned,

--

-- (i.e. IRA or LTTE ) but when a Muslim is charged with a crime, it`s

--

-- Islam that goes to trial?

--

Because nobody justifies killing in the name of god as

vehemently as some Islamic extremists.

-- The myth that South Indian muslims are like South hindu is nOT

-- correct. Granted then that muslim of subcontinent do form loose

-- what so ever a better cohesive group than with any other group.

--

The attitudes of south indian muslims

are vastly different from their north indian counterparts. For

one, the political choices of TN/kerala muslims are less

likely to be based on religion.

--

-- Recognizing that fact ,part of the problem is Govt. Of India for

-- pursing a confrontational policy against Pakistan ,for deep down

-- ,India is just as much responsible for

-- Partition,Kashmir,Bangladesh,Babri,Hindutva as the Enemy

-- Pakistan.

--

Bad relations with pakistan might certainly aggravate the

problem but normalization will not solve it. The problem

predates pakistan. As i said, partition, kashmir, babri,

hindutva are simply an escalation of a fundamental conflict.

These events just made it worse.

--

-- There are about 100 muslim private coleges .The only Muslim

-- Colege (univ.)Aligarh &Jamamilia are govt run & secular enough

-- to be of not exclusive for muslims .But of the institutions started

-- voluntarily by muslim 100 of them even when NO MONEY IS

-- DEMANDED AS ACUSSED BY CRITICS,are not given

-- endorsement & recognition .Not b/c of quality but due to communal

-- politics

--

--

-- Stop accusing that muslums dont WANT education.YOU dont

-- PROVIDE education Govt.Of India paticularly to minority

-- Community.The fact 100 of Instituions has been initiated without

-- any incentive but our own will & desire to survive & COMPETE

-- with hindus is ample proof to DEBUNK your myth & preconceived

-- notion,biase & assumptions.

--

--

Majority of Hindus received help from NOBODY. We had to pay

and toil for the education we received. No free lunch. GOI has

failed to provide decent education for ALL the disadvantaged

sections of the population not just the muslims. The question

for you though is why should the GOI start and finance ``Muslim

colleges`` rather than just ``Colleges``?

Why do some muslims feel more comfortable sending their wards

to ``Muslim colleges``?

Studebaker #: 491

So you were being a COMMEDIAN by posting of patently false reports from ``dalitstan.org``!!

Good, I like your comedy. Keep it up.

Devolution Plan all Greek says American Senator

KARACHI, April 21(Online) Calling the much trumpeted ``Devolution of Power Plan`` as bag of borrowings, American Senator Fred C Welling said keeping in view socio-cultural fabric of Pakistan implementation of much trumpeted `Devolution of Power Plan`` seems to be impracticable and ambiguous. American senator Fred C Welling said this while addressing the members of Karachi Chamber of Commerce and Industry. He said bureaucracy always tries to show rosy gardens and they have also done in this regard too. `` This plan is all Greek for the man in the street and the men who matter then how to implement it in letter and spirit`` he remarked. Counting ample obstacle in the way of its implementation he said, ambiguousness, psyche of the masses, socio-ethnic tendencies are major one. He said its proper implementation calls for utmost will to implement it.

Studebaker #482

So, you think the govt is actively keeping muslims out of public education. How is it doing that. Do muslims have to go to muslim universities for education? Does the govt have to start muslims univs to ensure that muslims get educated? What is stopping you from attending a central school for instance? It is open to all irrespective of their beliefs.

Tell me do you consider the Hindus to be responsible for all the problems that muslims have? Do you really think all Hindus are ganging up together against the muslims?

Farzana, you haven`t provided us with an introspection you have promised us for sometime. Or do you intend to just keep blaming the evil Hindus for the problems in the muslim communities.

Krashid # 942: Yeah, they want to disarm people and resort to imposing curfew to do that. That sounds good if applied to all and everywhere and some good positive actions accompanying such drastic steps. They actually want to disarm MQM and not the mullahs/ jehadis (of their own creation) and how would they disarm rurual areas and NWFP and Afghans. They want you to send dollars but do not promise the safety of foreign currency accounts, they want you to ship useful items to Pakistan but do not make efforts for proper and corruptioin-free delivery. They want to improve revenues without decreasing spending. They have been successfully fooling most of the people for 53 years but they can not fool all the people all the time. They are not happy with BB, they are not happy with NS, they do not like MQM. What do they have in mind exactly and how they can make their cronies through an alliance of king`s party and religious parties win the elction if there is ever one. Imran Khan, Asghar Khan or Farooq Leghari might have good intentions but are unwinnable in most places besides each government has to live under the same boots and work with the same bureaucracy?

I wish all the best for Pakistan but seriously doubtful about something concrete really happening anytime soon. The amalgamation of the whole corrupt system with Islam has created the perfect recipe for move to one direction only, the downhill one. I really fear for losing all what we had gained through hardships and hardwork during British raj to be lost and becoming like Afghanistan once again. It is not going to happen shortly but if we do not stop the retrogressive tendencies, it is only a matter of time.

It may sound funny to you but for any enemy to destroy us, does not have to attack or sacrifice a single life. Just burn pages of Quran with excellent media coverage, at least once or twice a month-and Pakistan will self destruct by wheel-jam strikes, once or twice a month. Israel can add catalyst by doing something similar or doing bad things to Palestinians.

dost-mittar #480: I am glad you liked that article by Iftikhar Alam. He said almost everything I would have said, had I been the author of that article, written for the consumption of mostly Pakistanis. He is not a well-known journalist like Prof Aziz Uddin Ahmad, Khaled Ahmad, Ayaz Amir, Kamran Shafi or a Washington based free lance writer Dr. Manzur Ejaz. These are the few people who would, once in a while, write about Punjab or Punjabiyat. It is not popular in Pakistan to write favorably about the largest and dominating culture and province in Pakistan. It is more than just bragging about the big brother in Pakistan or the fear of offending readers from smaller provinces. The actual reason has more to do with identity as perceived by the State.

Much like the USA of past and conservative elements of present, Pakistan identity as perceived by the State is a melting pot and not the salad bowl where each component is visible, brings in distinct taste and flavor and the construction/ deconstruction of salad bowl is much easy. One can pick and choose to create his. her own salad bowl. In the case of melting pot, particularly in Pakistan, distinct identities are only recognized as an integral and invisible component of the soup or melt. They have been tirelessly adding flavor enhancer of a certain kind that lets you only smell Islamic flavor and suppresses other, almost like adding saccharin to sugar. Our cultures have already been sweet and mature enough and do not demand saccharin addition unnecessarily, every time you like to enjoy just being yourself.

Iftikhar Alam in that The News article laid out the case of Punjabi chauvinism in Islamic garb, being persistent since independence. Being the most numerous, they hurt themselves most by such stupid rhetoric and fervid anti-India, anti-West and other anti-(A-Z) issues that contribute actually quite negatively to the overall health of the nation. Most Pakistani/ Indian Punjabis to this day do not realize the benefit of having good relationship between neighbors with same culture. Fortunately, Diaspora Punjabis have realized the benefit of cooperation ( gas stations in NJ just a minor examples). There will always be enough people in India and Pakistan who would like to make the hatred permanent with no reevaluation of the past policies, no revision of history allowed, no exchange of ideas and no trade, have small and big wars with regular intervals and keep renewing your arsenal after every clash, victory/ defeat does not matter. It is better to ignore responding to such replies whose sole purpose is to bring down the other, any which way possible.

History, circumcision, lingam, caste system, sati, monkeys, camels, are usual topics in this regard. It adds nothing to any useful interaction.

Farzana #483:

``Neptune (#443): Look, technically TN is considered vegetarian. I am aware of Chettinad cuisine, of course. Do I trace some regional pride here??``

Technically? Who says so? Is it just a cover for ignorance of South India? Neptune is correct - most Tamilians (as most Indians) are non-vegetarians... it is only some forward castes brahmins, mudaliars etc who are vegetarian...

Sameer JB #467

I never meant to take your post against partition.

Partition was basically forced on Muslims by the similar attitude I am seeing on this board against Farzana Warsi and Studebaker.

My post was regarding taking a drastic action against religious parties because they are religious parties. I thought your post indicated that. (Or I was mistaken)

I feel that issues needs be addressed whether they are religious or not.

For example, I am not in favor of disarming the people. For the very simple reason that our state is very corrupt and ruthless. But if I decide that disarming is in the interest of peace in Pakistan (which I highly doubt), then I will disarm every person whether he is religious or atheist or Hindu or Qadiani and not selectively.

So religious parties are as much a part of Pakistan as issue based parties or other parties.

It is true that I would not recommend a special favor for religious parties, but nor will I favor a discriminatory treatment against them. For the simple reason. If our intelligentia cannot fight even the religious bigotry in our country, how can we expect that it will be successful in taking the nation meaning the majority of population of Pakistan out of crises. It will only lead to another bigotry, this time by irreligious people.

FYI, I have been and still believe in leftist politics. But I will fight for the right of religious parties to exist as any other party within an equal framework.

Regards.

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Friend #468

``So you also caught the virus``

No it is called brotherhood. he...he...he.

krashid #488

``he...he...he..``

So you also caught the virus.