Hazrate’ Insaan and the Image of God

Mohiuddeen Sahib,

Have you considered the fact that the scientists just might be working in their respective fields because they have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and a desire to figure out the mysteries of the universe (not to mention that getting tenure is also directly proportional to the number of publications). Is this noble/valid only if you quote the hadees “Rasool Allah nay kaha hay, ilm hasel karnay liyay Cheen bhi jana paray to jao”. What has any of this to do with God or religion. Science is nothing but pursuit of knowledge and a whole lot nobler than armed Jehad (please check with your local Mullah during his halwa break and he will confirm it). And stop giving examples of which you seem to have no clue about. Writing 10 lines of Java code does’nt qualify you to make us suffer through your pearls of wisdom on non-linear dynamics, etc. Pursuit of knowledge is a continous process chummy- and a process in the right direction. Limitations of today will be conquered tomorrow. You either become a part of this process or in the words of Hoodbhoy, extinct.

Re: OmarPhoenix

...This does not achieve anything, `Allah is the supreme`… but we know that anyway.

We don’t “know” that. We “believe” that. There’s a difference.

Mohyuddin!

I did not grasp the main theme of your article.

I get your point as this.

Science is imperfect.

God is perfect.

So scientist should believe in God.

And do not look down upon people who obey God.

Since this topic interest me, so I will write few of my comments.

I am a firm believer in One God. My reading of Koran invites me to think and explore.

For example, the creation of Adam is described as Adam was taught few things and God asked angels to tell those things. Angels told God ``We know what you have taught us and nothing more``. So Adam has the inherent capacity to learn on his own compared to angels who only follow what they are taught. Does it make some sense.

Also where ever scientific facts are indicated in Koran, there is also mention and incitement for people to think. Ayahs are numerous.

By its very nature science is secular. It studies the phenomenon. There is neither a role of God nor God is out of picture. It is simply 2+2=4.

So it is useless to malign science in favor of God. Or malign God in favor of science.

Religion or Deen is a different domain than science.Or science is one aspect of deen. Particularly Islam. You will be well aware of that many scientists belief in religion and many not.

What if there is contradiction between our understanding of religion and science.

Since science is so far unable to create out of nothing (God`s attribute), it is only discovering phenomenon and changing the nature of things which if you are a believer in God are also created by God. So these phenomenon are itself God`s creation or attributes which we are discovering. (Since I don`t know the nature of God that is why I wrote creation or attributes)

Although it is true that scientific phenomenon are not absolute truth (neither they can be, neither science can claim it), but they are the existing reality with solid foundation on which further improvement and discovery can be made.

Probably you could do a better job, if you invite the scientific community, the way Koran has invited the people of understanding. i.e. belief in God because of those scientific phenomenon.

For example I will give meaning of few Ayah. ``Have you not seen how WE created animals and spread them all over the globe (or Earth), would you then not believe`` Or ``Heavens and Earth were once One and WE asunder them apart and created all living thing out of water``

In fact there are so many places in Koran with this theme that writing against science is probably a disservice to Allah.

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[The first rule is to obey whatever is prescribed; God is not stopping us from researching the causes of a rule, but it is clear that the ones who do not obey all of the rules of God are called Munafiqeen (hypocrites) and these are the worst human beings]

Just compare the social and economic indicators of the people by the rule of God and Munaiqeen (hypocrites).

Compare the average life span for men and women, infant mortality rate, literacy rate, telephone and TVs per 1000 people, access to clean drinking water, per capita income, trade surplus, dollar reserves, gold reserves, computerss per 1000 people.............

Munafiqeen are doing better than Momineen in every respect....or it is an illusion created by the satanic rules?

If God has fixed all rules in Holy Books, why then average life span has changed so much over the centuries? How many years of life per person is God`s rule? Since He is changing the rules with time, He is dynamic and not static. Neither average life span nor any other laws of 1400 years ago are constant. They are all variables.

Ever since Dr Hoodbhoy started his rantings on Chowk, I have been waiting for a good Humanistic/Theological critique of Science.

Unfortunately, this was not it.

Mr. Mohyuddeen:

All right I`ll play along. Human knowledge is imperfect. We`ll never be able to fathom the mysteries of any phenomenon due to imperfections in our understanding. In short we just don`t know the truth(or maybe we can`t handle it). Now lets be consistent and apply the same logic to your last paragraph. How can you with a straight face claim that the book of God and the instructions therein are genuine? Is that the only compendium of rules and regulations which is exempt from questioning?

Since you proclaim loudly that WE know NOTHING, how come YOU claim to have perfect knowledge of what actually transpired(or didn`t transpire) 1400 years ago in some rocky cave outside Mecca? Maybe it wasn`t 1400 years ago? Maybe the space-time curvature is an illusion? Maybe its supposed to happen in the future? Maybe the real book of God has been revealed to another alien race somewhere out in galaxy Q-10 and they sent us a garbled version of the original to keep us occupied with the length of beards and dreaming of houris and the ghulmans? Maybe the Buraq refuelled at the Mir space station before its onward journey to the severn layered atmosphere? Questions, questions, questions????

Pardon my ignorance and boldness.

later

-sac

My earlier post appears to have been lost, so I will be less polite.

This article is the poorest excuse for wasting one`s time that I have seen in a while.

There have been far better defences of God/gods/goddesses/devils/ghosts/jinns/angels/houris than this one. And none of them are convincing to a rational man.

These things are matters of faith, not rationality. We believe what we want to believe. The far more interesting questions are:

1. Why the heck do we believe what we believe in?

2. What beliefs are destructive and which ones are constructive of human welfare?

2. Will we ever be able to move, not individually but societally, from destructive beliefs to constructive ones? How do we achieve that miracle other than simply praying for it?

If anyone has answers, please discuss. This bull human beings have been going over for thousands of years, and we have only been able to move from the Buddha of Gandhara to the Taliban of Bamiyan (or you can take an example from India - it matters little).

That is not a very long way in my view.

GOD IS GREAT

Moyuddin,

I agree with your general thesis that the book contains all of the knowledge, aand following it will deliver the ultimate happiness. For amny kafirs it takes time to understand the wisdom of the book, which is timeless and space less. The following true story reinforces the greatness of the book.

Last year a rich texan ,after having settled all his wealth, ensured that he doesny have to work again, retired, and went on a world trip, that took him to afghanistan. He climbed up a hill overlooking a meadow, found a large tree and decided to settle beneath it, gazing at the meandering clouds in the azure sky. There he found a young afghan shepperd, doing exactly that. The texan asked the young man, what are you doing here. The afghan replied that he is tending the flock of five goats. The texan said that being young, he should work hard, move the goats around so that they fatten quickly. Sheppered asked then what happens, the texan retold the american story, you can have a bigger flock, then can employ people, start an abattoir, have a tanning busineess, become a millionaire. The boy asked, then what, the you can call in fund managers, take a long vacation, go to a peaceful place like this and spend the whole day, watching the sky.

The afghan replied that that is what he does every day.

Moyuddin, at last taliban have created a place, which the wealthy americans only dream of. What is in the book is post capitalist utopia. The allegedly educated have no clue about this new dimension that book talks about, the book has to be taken literally to create the utopia, the kalifait, and that is what the muslims fail to notice.

Human mind cannot fathom the gods mind, at least we have taliban. Dont talk of the m16 and the stingers that brought the kalifait to reality, that is another story.

regards

jay

Why do people try to write about things that they dont understand??? The things that annoys me most is people imposing there half baked ideas on others.

Dear Mohyudden

A very warm welcome to Chowk. It was an excellent article and very well written too.

THere are two problems when we try to understand God using tools of science and philosophy:

1. We set parameters based on the level of knowledge that we have at that time - in case of Philosophy. For the past three thousand years Greek, Roman, Muslim, Christian, and several other Philosophers have tried to ``prove`` and ``disprove`` the existence of God one after the other. Everytime a theory was put forward it was considered ultimate and was refuted in just a matter of years. The problem: our logic and power of reasoning is ever-evolving. Can any one say that after a certain stage we will be able to have discovered all the rules of logic and reasoning? THat will be the last day of the existence of human beings.

2. The scientific proceedure and analysis is even more limited than the Philosophy. The ultimate goal of all scientific investigation, whether it is as simple as understanding the speed of meshing gears, or the understanding of cosmos; is to bring that discovery/knowledge into the area of five parameters, so that we can interpret them - those parameters are senses of smell, hearing, seeing, taste, and touching. Every instrument that has ever been invented or being invented is actually an extension of one of these senses.

I remember an experiment in our elementary level classes when we were asked to dip one hand in cold water and other in warm simultaneously for a while and then put both hands in a container having water at the room temperature. The hand that was in cold water feels warm and the other one feels cold. And so is the accuracy of our senses and all the instruments that we keep on inventing.

Mohayuddin have explained number two in a very logical way. The point is simple, we need different parameters or level of understanding to understand God. THat is a continuous process, we must not and cannot stop at a certain point and say that is the ultimate truth. Once you embark on this path it will not be you who will reach to God, God will come to you.

It never fails to amaze me the trouble people go to justify the set of beliefs they just happened to be born into.

What are you trying to prove? That we should not do anything and ask everything from God. Well God Himself has bestowed upon us this Universe with all its laws and a brain to us.

It does not matter whether we are inventing or discovering( to quote your religiously correct word) as long as we are advancing knowledge. And God himself asks us to increase our understanding of Universe.

This is the very reason used by fundamentalists (a wrong stereotype but a will take it up at some later time) to withold Muslims from progressing. In the times after British took over sub continent, Mullahs asked muslims to refrain from Education as they are the workshops of Devil (British) and a look what a loss it was for them. This was the very reason Muslims fell behind in all walks from politics to scientific. Thank God for Sir Syed Ahmed Khan that he instilled some sense into Muslims (for that he was branded a KAfir) by establishing Aligarh University.

Why can`t we Muslims just work hard and apply our mind. Whenever the time comes, we ask from God. We should ask from him as he is Omnipotent but we should also try ouirselves.

First Deserve than Desire.

A few comments regarding the article:

``If science does not prove a phenomenon they simply dismiss the existence of it.``

In order to weed out bad ideas, science follows the Scientific Method. The basic principle is that you observe a phenomenon, devise an explanation to exaplain it, and then test it. If the test fails, then it means that the explanation was not right. If the test is a success, then you consider the explanation consistent with the theory, and proceed with more tests. This eliminates claims like ghosts and spirits etc. that are based purely on anecdotes. That also eliminates creationism, that has not stood up to any scientific tests. This brings us to the next point...`

``For starters, the scientific community does not agree on the theory of evolution.``

I am not sure which scientific community you are talking about (And please Creationists are not part of the scientific community). Evolution of human species is accepted virtually by ALL scientists. Its amazing that a guy could come up with this beautiful and elegant theory in the 19th century, and we still come across articles in the 21st century that do not understand the basis of his theory. It has been consistently demonstrated that origin of species can be explained with evolution (e.g. the presence of vestigal organs, fossils of intermediate species etc.). In fact evolution is evident even today. Just look at the ineffectiveness of our anti-biotics and pesticides against the ever-changing bacteria. A ``perfect creation`` would not leave out organs like our appendix and tail bone or some hybrid species (ah..but you would argue that it is Creator`s will to misguide us regarding that).

``The history of Homo Sapiens (or Homo Erectus) has changed several times in the past one century alone and is likely to be rewritten, yet again, after the discovery of a skeleton in South Africa thought to be three million years old. If confirmed, this would make the remains 500,000 years older than anything previously discovered.``

Again, science is an ongoing effort. Yes, there is uncertainty regarding the exact path of human evolution...but scientists are charting these routes. Just because scientists argue about the specifics of evolution does not mean that the theory of evolution is wrong. The oldest hominid species is ``Ardipithecus``, which is dated to 4.4 million years old (Nature 371, 306 (1994)). But these are still only the details..and does not drastically change the overall evolutionary theory. And over time this is only get more accurate. We know that there were several hominid species that romed the planet for the last 4 million years. Only one, Homo-Sapiens, survived. The reason for this are fascinating scientific questions.

``Some claim that the speed of light is the only absolute thing in the universe; everything else is relative. Too much credit is given to Einstein?s E=MC2.``

Only in the ``vacuum``. You later point about a medium is not applicable. In any case, see point 1 for changing scientific paradigms.

``Look at the race of Giga Hertz and Giga Bytes. A small wafer with complicated micro circuitry took years of research and development and yet it is not faster than the human brain, which God had created millions of years ago and has not changed in the physical nature, if we believe that religious theory.``

Yes, and God has a 4-billion year head-start compared to 200,000 years of Homo Sapiens...and yet humans have started to make artificial limbs and clones. 4-billon years would be enough time to perfect neurology!

``Just like God taught Adam 2700 (or 27,000 languages according to some Muslim Scholars).``

Is ther any evidence for this?? Or are these the type of anecdotal evidence that do not hold any weight in the world of science? For the case of Origin of languages, see ``Language Instinct`` (Steven Pinker) or ``Meme Machine`` (Susan Blackmore), and see the process in which languages evolved. Earliest Homonids did not have very many languages, let alone 2700 (or 27,000).

``We have NOT created anything, including Windows2000, LINUX, UNIX, the atomic reactor, or Betsy the genetically engineered sheep. These are the things, which we are discovering, not creating.``

And is God also responsible for genocides, homicides, ethnic cleansing, holocaust, weapons of mass destruction, biological weapons, inhumanity, treachery, deceit, wars, battles? You have to give God the full credit.

``The first rule is to obey whatever is prescribed; God is not stopping us from researching the causes of a rule, but it is clear that the ones who do not obey all of the rules of God are called Munafiqeen (hypocrites) and these are the worst human beings.``

This is exactly the antithesis of science. The first commandment of science is to question authority. It does not matter if its Einstein`s relativity, or Newton`s theory of gravity, or Hawking`s mini-blackholes. This is the spirit of science. It does not want anyone to ``believe`` in these theories...but encourages people to test them. In fact, science rewards those people who find holes in established theories. Religions on the other hand discourage critical thinking and questioning. This is the reason for the strength of science.

The beauty of science is that it tells us that creatures of the world are intimately connected with each other. We all have a common acestor, and biological evolution can explain the diversity in an elegant manner: We are one and yet we are different. Science encourages wonder, and it is precisely this spirit which has lead to the knowlege of complexities from the quantum level to to entire cosmos. We should not squnder our 4-billion heritage that has lead to the large brains, by abandoning rationality, critical thinking, and ultimately science.

``Can one be an Insaan without God?``

Absolutely! The 400 million Buddhist (Buddhism being the non-theist religion), 80+ percent of Chineese and countless athiests and non-religious in the world are as good Insaan as the believers. The large number of ``believers`` in the world is, in part, a consequence of often ruthless and bloody hisstory of the last 1600 years (since the coversion of Roman Emperor to Christianity). More recently, the only mode it is being passed on successfully to the next generation is reproduction.

Science is about understanding of nature and nature of thing. It is not in the business of proving or disproving the existance of God.

The CHOWK_STAFF has categorized this article in Chaathouse. No wonder.

:)

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