The Making of a Successful Marriage

Dear Gnomad and Adila:

I appreciate your understanding of message that I have tried to develop. In the beginning, I thought that somehow people from South Asia are smart and more cultured as compared to Americans. The reason being that we have good family values. Now I realize that human being act according to the circumstances. No wonder, that the second generation of immigrants has similar problems in the USA.

Although, I can understand that certain marriages are doomed to fail, I also believe that a large number can be saved if the people analyze the problems.

All of the challeges that I narrated in my article can be faced and solutions can be found. We owe it to our children and society. The children from broken homes have less chance of becoming good citizens and the whole society has to pay for the mistakes.

The root cause of many social, psychological and drug related problems can be traced to broken homes.

If you liked the article, then recommend it to others. This way maybe some people can make their marriages successful.

Mr. Hassan,

Your article was very astute and accurate. As a seventh generation American there is much in what you write that I cannot relate to. However, there is also much that I can.

All of the factors you mentioned do play a part in the strength of a relationship, particularly a marriage. Additionally, I think such a close relationship requires give and take on both sides in order to remain successful. Your comments about people striking back when they are criticized (even mildly) is certainly a universal response. For cultures that do not allow one or both parties to react in such a way, the feelings of resentment may still exist.

I certainly cannot defend the rising divorce rate among Americans (or anyone else) but I think there are other factors as well. I think many bad relationships in the past were tolerated, but were not good. Today, more and more people feel free enough to get out of those bad relationships. And that is a good thing.

As a man who has been married to the same woman for 30 years, I thank you for sharing your insight.

a very good article to read. i also know some people dealing with the same situation that you have mentioned but at the same time people know how to compromise with divorce situation.

Studebaker #131 Thank you for providing the full quote from the Quran on this subject. It clearly calls for basic propriety and decency in matters of sex that applies to both men and women. Not just for women. Given the double standards that prevail in muslim societies, men tend to violate this Quranic injunction with impunity (including those wearing religious beards) while at the same time preaching and applying it well beyond anything the Quran indicates in case of women. The practical implication is that in a muslim society, the issue should be (a) how to ensure men behave decently towards women, and (b) how women can earn their rightful economic independence and freedom. Not the other way round, as is generally assumed when people talk about an Islamic society. I also agree that a democracy, people are free to practice their religion according to the Quran (as you correctly quote from it). Indeed, the use of Islam to support dictatorships in Pakistan (as Zia did, as NS tried to do, and as the ``religious parties`` would like to do) is one of the biggest violations of the basic message of Islam. Religion is something between man and God, and there is no room for priests and even less for ``religious parties`` in Islam.

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Studebaker #124 Your post is a perfect example of what I am talking about in earlier posts which you conveniently ignore. Your views are not based on the Quran: they are based on the sayings of ordinary men whom people like you elevate to the position of gods and prophets. Read the Quran and try to understand the emphasis placed on using the brain that God gave you. And before preaching to women, read what the Quran says about the duty of men in matters related to women: they are to keep their eyes to themselves. Women are then told in exactly the same words to do the same. Get this through your head and you will be on your way to becoming a human being and a muslim.

anika #122 Very well reasoned post. What you are saying is based not only on common sense, but I may add also fully supported in Islam (the Islam of the Holy Quran, not that of the jet-setting money grabbing ``hajis`` or of the male chauvinist hypocrites or the millions of ignorant ones who treat the Quran as a magical thing rather than a book to be carefully read, understood, and applied in one`s daily life). On the veil, the Quran specifically says that women should cover their breasts: any decent person would agree that this is the way it should be, and this also consistent with what you say. The use of the hijab started a few generations after the death of the prophet as is generally acknowledged. And this was a practice that was conveniently adopted from the Zoroastrians and the Constantinople Christians (according to the book ``Battle for God`` by Karen Armstrong) as the practice of Islam rapidly degenerated into kingships where women were treated as cattle.

It is time we started understanding what true Islam is all about, stopped letting the rascals hi-jack it as they have done for hundreds of years: if you follow the dictates of common sense and decency, you will find you are on the right path.

Re: Reply #: 109

``Ironically .Quran ,being a book too says somthing that hindus are fond of quoting as per Arun Shouries interpretation as ``:kill all kafir `` ``kill all Jews`` and...``

Studebaker,

I do not know which verses in the holy Quran talks about killing kafirs (i am ignorant about the teachings of Quran)but i do know that such verses do exist and have been exploited by the likes of Ghori and Ghazni in the past. These people misinterpreted (even misused)the religious text to loot,plunder,destroy temples and so forth. I refuse to believe that any religious text would actually allow killing of non-believers(kafirs as you call them). These teachings have to be seen inthe right context. These were meant for tribals in Saudi Arabia and discouraging idol worship made a lot of sense in that context as these tribals were worshipping wrong prophets and gods. There is really no comparison between what was happening then in Saudi Arabia and India during those times. India already had a religion which was widely popular,backed by powerful symbols,religious texts,interpreted and reinterpreted by sages down the ages. Not one of these sages ever advised against idol worship but all talked about idol worship as a starting point for reaching God (who, as they were never tired of saying, is really formless).

For the muslim invaders and rulers to have destroyed the idols without understanding the faith that sustained the idol worship (and that sustains it to the present day)was wrong. This however does not put the religion into bad light but only the followers of religion. Is Islam bad because Mullah Omar is bad. I do not think so. Seen in the same light Sati and caste system as practiced in India are wrong. The religion itself is however not to be blamed.

Constitution of India is a legal document that has been put in place by the common will of the people of India to address such difficult issues as rights of the underprevileged,women`s rights and so on. It is an attempt to replace religious dogmas and aberrations with a legal document. Is it sacrosanct? Yes and No. In spirit,it is sacred. In reality, it is subject to changes. Indian constitution has undergone many amendments and continues to undergo changes and that is how it should be.

I believe the muslims in India ,for their own good, should reject the narrow confines to which their Personal Law places them and accept the common Civil code. Those that have done so (sikhs,christians)have forged ahead of muslims. They should come out of the ``ghetto`` mentality they are in and join the mainstream. In doing so they are in noway going to lose their identity. The hindus have not lost their culture and identity after 1000 years of muslim rule and still retain it despite sending their children to christian missionary schools (which happen to be some of the best in India). Indian muslims also need to reject the likes of Shahabuddin, Imam Bukhari and root for saner elements. But such changes should come from within the muslim community without any coercion from any quarters.

sridhar

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studebaker #11-?

look, for some reason you find this female`s - whose article you have pasted in here - views on the wonder of the hijab very attractive but a lot of what she says not only makes no sense but just sounds logically wrong.

And why is that? because she`s doing it for the wrong reasons. Her real reason actually comes out between the lines namely `` feeling that one has to meet impossible male standards of beauty is tiring and often humiliating `` She then goes on to give the very salient features of the hijab like not have to fight with your tresses for hours on a bad hair day, which being a woman I have to agree with to some extent ; it would be nice if I simply didn`t have to bother about doing my hair just to go to work/study every day, but if I want to avoid the hassle and just tie a scarf over my head that day, why should I claim religious reasons for doing so - just so I can get credit and approval from the religious right?

She then goes on to complain about how women who don`t wear makeup and shave their legs and expose are somehow ridiculed and put down until they do - someone should just ask her `` who exactly is insisting you do all that? If you can`t be bothered, don`t. If shaving your legs is such a huge problem for you, wear jeans, or long skirts, and as long as your face is basically clean I don`t think anyone is going to throw you out of the room. Exposure isn`t de rigeur for going to work or the grocery mart either. In fact in some work places, too much exposure works against you.``

She then declares `` the hijab is a women`s assertion that the judgement of her physical person is to play NO ROLE whatsoever in social interaction`` Excuse me? NO ROLE WHATSOEVER? I`m all for believing with the Quran that our soul is the most important part of us, but to deny the physical element completely is to deny part of ourselves. Certainly physical beauty shouldn`t be the basis for how we treat others, but I personally would not want to work with or even be with some one who was completely unconcerned with their physical self and hadn`t bothered to groom themselves be it men or women ( letting their stubble grow, not using proper deodarants which A LOT of desis don`t do, wearing messy clothes, unwashed hair , the list goes on - this has nothing to do with personal beauty, just common courtesy for those around you )

Finally in the end she makes this pointless ( it`s completely POINTLESS because civilized self-respecting women DO NOT bare their breasts in public or in any public capacity WHATSOEVER no matter what faith they happen to be, and as for muslim women doing so, the whole idea is just laughable ) assertion that `` women are not going to achieve equality with the right to bare their breasts in public ...... that will only make us party to our own objectification ``

So according to this woman, equality HAS been definetively achieved in a society if you DON`T need to defend your decision to keep your body (as represented by your hair and neck) to yourself and equality HASN`T been achieved if you DO have the right to bare any part of your body other than your face in public( I absolutely refuse to use her ``breasts`` example because in North America women don`t have the right to do that in the open -and that`s they way it should - and will- stay because breasts are basically a sexual body part).

Her argument sounds very kind of one sided to me. Her right to cover is more important to ensure female equality then someone else`s right not to? Why are her rights more important? and why this paranoid obsession that she`s being objectified?

Women will achieve equality when they can wear whatever they like as long as remains within the bounds of decency.

The hijab is not going to be the tool that gives back women control over their bodies - although that`s what the male counterparts of these women would like them to believe. Only societies can do that - by making stricter laws for sexual harassment, and enforcing them so women never have to feel objectified, and the men who do it should know that the onus of responsibility is on them, and they can and will be held responsible if they do it.

Studebaker #117 You note approvingly of muslim women in the US and Canada putting on the Hijab. This represents another distortion of Islam due to ignorance and hypocrisy: The Quranic instructions calls for women not to dress in a manner that attracts attention to themselves. By wearing a hijab these women (they are more often young teenage girls actually) get the attention the attention they would not get otherwise. Or at least they think they do. This is apparent even in the quote you provide approvingly from one of these pathetic individuals: ``I get the whole gamut of strange looks, stares, and covert glances. You see, I wear the hijab, a scarf that covers my head, neck,and throat. I do this because I am a Muslim woman who believes her body

is her own private concern.`` The first part betrays of the quote betrays the reason for the Hijab : to try and get the ``looks, stares etc.`` that she would not get otherwise. The last part betrays the hypocrisy.

Women wearing the Hijab in western countries represent a clear violation of the Quran. This is an indicator of the backwardness and hypocrisy that pervades muslim cultures, not Islam.

Dear All:

I have closely followed the discussions and comments on the Chowk. After a few comments on the topic,the conversations goes at tangents and sometimes ends up in personality clashes. Disagreements are fine as long as they are related to a point of view or a topic of discussion.

Religion and belief are sensitive issues. No one is convinced without understanding or empathy. Pakistanis have tried to portray a picture as if everyone women in Pakistan has all the rights. Indians have projected ideas as if discrimination and ill treatment of women does not exist in Indian society.

I have travelled in India and Pakistan and I know that both countries have similar problems. There are tremendous problems of poverty, population and pollution. The people of both countries especially youth must develop understanding and respect the views and religion of others.

Europe resolved their problems after the second World war. It is about time that young generation of both of these countries realize that

fighting does not solve anything.

Finally, I believe that people from South Asia may not have happy marriage but have stable marriages. A stable marriage is better than divorce. I have seen so many young people who live in poverty in single parent homes. These people grow up as unhappy individuals and take the revenge on the society.

Everyone has right to his or her own opinion and ideas. Develop your own ideas and follow whatever works for you.

Thanks for all input. I enjoyed arguments and counter arguments. Perhaps South Asian can become very good lawyers.

Studebaker, I can`t follow what you are trying to say. BTW, I have left a message for you on YLH`s board on Sher Shah Suri. Can you please answer that?

Would you support the imposition of shariat in India? Simple Yes or no will suffice.

Do you support Uniform Civil Code in India?

Studebaker:

First you mention ``laws of Hinduism``, then say there are no ``hinduism`s laws`` and then go on to say `hindu laws such as sati, dowry`, etc.

Your problem is not articulation. It is anger and muddled thinking. You have been evasive at best and there is no point in continuing this. I thought you may have some genuine grievances that you might want to discuss. Turns out all you are is angry. And from the way you have been evading, I am forced to conclude that you either grew up in a cocoon with only muslims as your neighbors and friends or you`re just another expert from across the border just like your buddy Dr. Jekyll.

All the best and may your anger not consume you. Read Dalistan.org for spiritual solace.

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Studebaker,

What Anamika asking you is whether you support Shariat in a country with more than 15% minorities.

Do you support UCC in India? UCC doesn`t mean imposition of Hindu rules on everybody. UCC has got nothing to do with Hinduism.

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#113 studebaker

After reading all the zigzagging I am confused. What are the problems (economic, political, social) that Indian muslims are facing, in your opinion? And what can be done about it?

You also said, ``BUT I

AM NOT THAT FANATIC TO IMPLEMENT KORAN IN A

MAJORITY HINDU COUNTRY ``. No one was implying that you or other muslims wanted sharia to be imposed in India. That would be a preposterous thing to do. Since you wouldn`t want to live under ``hinduism`s laws`` (I think you mean Uniform Civil Code?) what do you think about implementing shariat in a muslim -majority state with significant minority population (say, 15%)?

Dear Studebaker,

Since we are in the path of knowing each other, let us not digress back. What Anamika and Harimou said, I will just add my two cents in it. I will give you just one example of (trust me,I am not lying a word of it)how the ritualistic aspect of islam is taking a stonghold even within the moderate western educated muslims.

I have two colleagues, one Bangladeshi and another Indian, both muslims, both are brilliant, specially the Indian one. The Indian guy is extremely good in heart. However, he does not mix with his Indian colleagues socially because of his wife` special need, he rather mixes with middle eastern muslims. You got it, his wife wears a complete veil with a slit. I tried to invite them twice in my place, they came, the wife will immediately take a recluse in one of the bed rooms and will never come out in the living room. Obviously, this way it can not go on for long. Although he is such a nice person he never called us back in his home. So the one-way street closed, now it is just Hi and Hello.

Now the Bangladeshi guy who has a beautiful wife who had enjoyed all the freedom is under stress now to wear at least a headdress. The guy used to go out with us for dinner once in a while, now very seldom he goes as he has to check out his food whether that is halal or not. Obviously, there are not too many places where we can go together! The Indian and Bangladehi Muslims had become close friends now, while the Bangladeshi guy and I speak the same language, whereas the Indian is a Gujrati! I wanted both of them to be my friends, one was a natural ally, yet the religion, almighty religion came our way.

I must say, my son and Bangladeshi`s son are the best friends, we are waiting for them to grow up and take charge of their communities, although the little boy (11) has started his ramadan this year.

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#109 studebaker

Two very different issues - quran and the Indian constitution.

One can be altered and the other cannot.

I was just curious as to why you who escaped from the belly of the beast still thought that the constitution (authored by people whose descendents you now despise) was and OK document.

You see, you were using a very broad brush that somehow left out the consitution.

What is clear to me is that the ``hindus`` are not wholly secular but they are not for a theocracy either. Otherwise the BJP would have been able to create and implement a Uniform Civil Code. What is also clear to me is that you want the hindus to take care of the muslims. How about if we all take care of each other or just ourselves?

I come from a place where hindus and muslims interact strongly. There are pockets where muslims are prosperous and pockets where they are very poor. I however see the prosperous muslims becoming more rigid in their observence. 20 years ago, a muslim woman wore a head covering and that`s about it. Now purdahs (tents with a slit for eyes) are becoming very common. What can anyone do if the prosperous muslims who should be role models start withdrawing from the mainstream?

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#103 studebaker



It`s your prerogative to apologize when you feel like it. It`s also your prerogative to write about the plight of muslims and the invidiousness of hindus while seemingly finding the Constitution of India worthwhile (was it delivered by aliens?). But it is totally wrong to label you a traitor for writing what you feel. It only betrays the insecurity of some people.

All the best.

Ref Studebaker #: 103

[My oplogy if i hurt any religous sentiment.]

Thanks for the gesture. However, I have no religious sentiments at all for you or anybody else to offend.

[I admit Indian Constitution has been instrumental in banning Dowry,Sati,Allowed divorce initiated by hindu woman& other unjust but hindu religous edicts

I reads your defence ,mostly they are `they dont happen now``thanx to laws naya kanoon hindu marriage lawsAct child marriage Act.

But irrelevent as it may be in modern india,it does still happen b/c how much any law is enforced or enforceable you can imagine by the traffic laws obeyed on marine drive Mumai.]

It is education that advances the thinking of a people as a whole. However, education is bad for religion because it causes people to start questioning the fundamental beliefs of their and all religions.

How come that the most educated (in the Western tradition) Indians are Brahmins from the southern states of India? Because they have to work extra hard to overcome stringent affirmative action programs. Why is it that they are at the forefront of social revolution today? Because that education also causes them to question their own religion; they can see the injustices (after all, they have paid for it by restrictive quotas in professional education and government jobs) that are caused by divisions in society.

I have had occasion to mention a Tamil Iyer girl who is married to a Muslim colleague. Another Brahmin friend displays a rosary and a picture of Jesus and Mary on the dashboard of his car along with a picture of Hanuman. Would these have happened just 30 years ago? No way!

But what direction are the Muslims taking? The fear of losing Islam seems to grip the Muslim mind in a stranglehold. Whereas Hindu parents have no diffficulty sending their children to the best possible schools regardless of the religious affiliation of the school (the best are of course run by Christian missionaries, with their emphasis on discipline, hard work, Christian prayer, etc.), average Muslims seem willing to completely forego education rather than have their Faith diluted however slightly.

In 1947, India offered to all its citizens an equal opportunity to participate in the nation-building exercise. If Muslims retreat into a shell, they are the ones who will lose. As they lose, they can blame the system, increasingly retreat into their mental as well as physical ghettoes and form the underclass of Indian society. You can see this happening to Hindus too. From being in the forefront of the fight for Independence with leaders like Nehru, Uttar Pradesh is now at the bottom of the ladder and is being derided as a Cow-Belt state. With politics of division playing a big role, Uttar Pradesh and Bihar are condemned to be the hewers of wood and drawers of water in future Indian society. With education taking the front seat, Karnataka, Andhra and Tamil Nadu have surged ahead in not just exporting skilled IT manpower but also in attracting foreign direct investment. The benefits are available to all, no matter what their religion is. Do you see Sikhs, Christians, Dalits, etc., complaining? Every one of them has had to overcome the covert and overt discrimination of the previous generation. Yet, they are making it in today`s India. Why won`t Muslims shake off their apathy? You have already lost a precious 53 years. How many more years will you lose before you wake up? Can you ever catch up?

I said earlier [Hindus want Indians to move forward to the 21st century. Muslims want to regress from about Aurangzeb`s time to 7th century.] This is a prescription for a very deep division in society that will be exploited by politicians of all shades (and unfortunately, by mullahs who will continue to preach to the Faithful that they should withdraw further into a totally Islamic society). The division will be socio-economic; religion will be just an added factor but also the root cause.

Trying to remedy the symptom of Muslim backwardness without trying to understand its causes led to the division of India. Pakistan and India`s Muslims are still trying to remedy the symptom. But there is no thought being given to using the cure which already exists.

PM #105 ``my funny bone had been tickled only by that remark by jazba you quoted in #91``

I see what you mean. I hope for Jazba`s sake that the humor in that line of his was intentional, but it does seem like he was dead serious. I can see a book here waiting to be written: ``Unintentional humor from South Asian movies, newspaper clippings, and internet postings``. It would make the Poles look like geniuses.

re. tahmed #100

tahmed, my funny bone had been tickled only by that remark by jazba you quoted in #91. Now, even you gotta admit that was a scream!

Next thing you know he`ll be saying something like ``stable guys like Urstruly and ...`` :)

rgds,

PM

#91 tahmed321

Come now, you sound acerbic!

Jazbati is hilarious!

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PM 395 I re-read the post based on what you said to make sure that I had passed judgement on an innocent, fun-loving soul.

But I still did not get it: I did not roll over in fits of uncontrollable laughter, shedding tears. I could not laugh at all, in fact. I could not even grin. Maybe it`s just me. But no that cant be...even you had to ask Jazb if he was kidding. And even if he was it really wasnt very funny. Even a Mullah, or a Nazi, or a Thakeray-ite could have been funnier, I think.

``last straw on the camel`s back !``

Somehow in the past this stmt has made perfect sense but when I look at it today it just doesnt jive. I mean camel,straw,back - c`mon - real stretch of the imagination.

The other thing is - Allahabad - how in heavens name did a place which is so dsignificant to the aam-hindu populace get such a name??

I dont think it is me - just another one of THOSE days where everything isnt making any sense !! If anyone can throw some light - muccho appreciate it

Ref AAmir #: 85

[The Brahmins make a big campaign that Islam restricts the freedom of women.]

Is Mullah Omar of Afghanistan a Brahmin? He is the man who prevents Afghan women from working or girls from going to school.

Is Imam Syed Bukhari of Jumma Masjid, New Delhi, a closet Brahmin? He is the one who led the crusade against alimony for divorced Muslim women as being against the Sharia.

The difference is Hindus want civil law for all citizens, thus abolishing any form of discrimination whereas Muslims want the Sharia.

[1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.]

There is no Hindu Personal Law that is applied to Hindu marriages. Thus Hindu women can and do sue for divorce AND get alimony from their ex-husbands.

[2. She has no property or inheritance rights.]

She has an equal share along with her brothers in her parents` property.

[3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending

bridegroom/family.]

A Muslim woman CANNOT marry a non-Muslim. There have even been modern Pakistanis who have been proudly advertising on Chowk how they try to dissuade their Muslim women friends from marrying non-Muslims.

The question of not marrying outside the caste is a personal/religious decision that people have accepted or violated for centuries.

[4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.}

The stree dhanam (dowry) was a settlement against future claims on inheritance.

[5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today`s law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes

her in other ``holy`` ways (see below).]

Since you deride Brahmins so much, just get it through your thick head that this was applied to Brahmin widows only. If the maharajas of Northern India decided to enforce it on their wives, that was their problem. Even then, very few women committed sati historically.

[6. She cannot remarry.]

I have known a servant maid who worked at our house who was twice divorced and thrice married. So peddle this nonsense somewhere else.

[7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public. She cannot wear jewelry or colourful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children`s marriage!)]

How do you think fatherless children get married? Either the mother arranges the wedding with the help of her family and friends or the girl chooses her own husband, contradicting every single idiotic thing you have posted.

[8. Child and infant marriage is encouraged.]

The Sharda Act, circa 1934, set the minimum age for marriage for girls at 14.

[1.The Muslim woman has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters including divorce.]

How about alimony?

[2. She enjoys property and inheritance rights. (Which other religion grants women these rights?). She can also conduct her own separate

business.]

Where is everybody`s justification that the diktat regarding a woman`s testimony being equal to half of that of a man because a woman cannot remember the details of contracts and business details? Ha ha ha! A woman must always have a man or another woman by her side to transact business because her testimony is not going to be believed as much as men`s. This is equality? What a pea-brained idiotic argument!

[3. She can marry any Muslim of her choice. If her parents choose a partner for her, her consent must be taken.]

Did you tell that to that poor woman who got murdered in Asma Jahangir`s office? She was married AGAINST her will to her first cousin and then murdered for trying to get a divorce.

[4. The dowry in Islam is a gift from a husband to his wife (not the other way around as is practiced by some ignorant Muslims).]

You know, the dowry was given to a Hindu woman as a settlement of future claims against her inheritance. If Hindus do it, it is evil but when Muslims do it, it is only ignorance! I like your two-faced arguments.

[5. A Muslim widow is encouraged to remarry, and her remarriage is the responsibility of the Muslim society.]

We all know about that. Didn`t Muhammed himself marry about 20 of them? Ha ha ha!

[6.Mixed marriage is encouraged and is a means to prevent racism creeping in society.]

I suppose Fair and Lovely is no longer sold in Pakistan!

[7. A Muslim mother is given the highest form of respect.]

Ha ha ha!

[Have you ever heard of a Muslim burning his wife?]

Karo-kari.

AAmir, let me repeat: Hindus want Indians to move forward to the 21st century. Muslims want to regress from about Aurangzeb`s time to 7th century. So you can write any crap here; nobody is buying it.

Aamir #96

Sure Islam has laws for equality. How many Muslim women get to enjoy them? Just because women in your family enjoy these laws doesn`t mean everybody does. I could, like you are doing with Hinduism, generalize the suffering of many Muslim women to Islam.

I hope you will be objective when guaging the plights of Hindu and Muslim women. Just don`t start painting with a broad brush that Muslim women are much better off because of Islam.

AAmir #85:

Most of what you said in terms of Hindu women is not true. By law, Hindu women have inheritance rights, right to remarriage, right to divorce, dowry and sati is illegal etc.

You said ``[The Muslim woman] She enjoys property and inheritance rights. (Which other religion grants women these rights?).``

Wake up - rights are granted by nations, not religion. Religion is just a bunch of practices and beliefs.

In fact, in India, Hindu women have MORE rights than Muslim women - right to alimony after divorce as long as necessary (usually till remarriage), right not to have your husband take other women as wives after marrying you.

MaheshG,# Astitva

Yes i could not agree more that the man in the movie, stands charged!However somehow I Felt as you mention, it does highlight an issue on women`s rights, but my point is, at that moment is the woman left a bitter winner ? after all she lost everything at a stage, where one is the most settled in life.It can perhaps have two interpretations .

1. As you percieved it on women`s lib.

2.As i perceived it as a lack of communication in the couple,or rather lack of properly accomodating each other in a marriage .The woman`s loneliness was the driving factor in the circumstances which followed .It was a shame that the husband did not realise this during their journey together.Again , yes, he was a workaholic man, that is just the point. there are so many of these sorts in the world, where a dutiful wife just wilts away , trying her best to please the family. The woman always had a choice to work, but for her home came first, so she never missed not doing that, rather enjoyed her role as a home maker.

sure i agree with you , that what the woman did was correct .But did she have a choice ?she was literally thrown out of the house by her son and husband, which was the last straw on the camel`s back !

sa

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re. Tahmed and jazba99

TAhmed sahib, C`mon, can`t you enjoy a good laugh once in a while?

(jazba, you *were * joking in your last post (#88), weren`t you?.. gee, you *are * funny!)

rgds,

PM

re. Tahmed and jazba99

TAhmed sahib, C`mon, can`t you enjoy a good laugh once in a while?

(jazba, you *were * joking in your last post (#88), weren`t you?.. gee, you *are * funny!)

rgds,

PM

jazba99 ``what happens to decent people like myself and farangi kush ``

After reading your disgusting language, I think you flatter yourself in calling yourself decent. Dont tempt me in explaining what should happen to foul-mouthed and self-righteous jerks like you (and there is no shortage of your type either on this planet, unfortunately).

Wasiq Nawaz #79 Most second generation American-Desis come from families where fighting and arguments were common and where spouses seldom bothered to spend quality romantic time together. ``

I dont think we can generalize here, and desis probably are no more or less romantic in marriage than others, and no more or less given to family fights (I remember my old boss - a true, blue Wasp - who assured me that a weekend in reunion with his extended family was all he could take). The trouble is the Des, not the Desis: given poor living standards and low incomes, there is no privacy for romance to flourish and little cash to spare for a romantic getaway.

Shirin #75.

I have seen the movie. I didn`t say the guy felt guilty. I said he was guilty. Ten times as guilty as his wife. In spite of that the movie didn`t do that well. That`s what I am trying to tell you. That people are willing to overlook a man`s transgressions but, not a woman`s.

And I disagree with you. This is a movie about a woman standing up for her rights.

Aamir #85

I ask you again. Are muslim women really as liberated as you say they are?

What you have given is the best case scenario for a Muslim woman and a worst case scenario for a Hindu woman (most of which is not sanctioned by Hinduism anyway). Now, how many Muslim women enjoy the best scenario and how many Hindu women suffer the worst scenario?

Mr. Hassan

Finally read your article. You make sense. I dont think that I can differ with you much. Thanks for sharing your informative thoughts and observations with us. It will be a great learning source for some of us.

I dont think there is enough literature available to our new or second level generations in US to help them pull through the delimas that they face. May I suggest that you should address such issues with a two pronged approach-one approach should be to address these issues with immigrant generation and second approach is to address the same issues to the second level generation. There is a great difference how two generations perceive the same issues differently. I think, as compared to the immigrants of 60`s, the new immigrants are much more educated and much more better off. So the nature of social issues has changed too.

sac #78 Ha! Ha!

I have not had the honor of properly reading any of AAmir`s posts: I do see one from him with a scholarly discussion on who said what to whom, but to begin to understand it I would have to read some prior posts that I have not read yet and dont plan to.

I can only assume therefore that you have good basis for placing him in the Dunce Hall of Fame. I may add that if someone`s name is spoken alongwith the likes of Jay and Urstruly, the Great Pehalwans of HIC (Hatreds, Indian Colors) and HPC(Hatreds, Pakistan Colors), then that individual is truly a Dunce to be Reckoned With.

FIGURE THIS:

men = amoral beasts

women = decadent libertines

.... when push comes to shove and these kinda ppl marry each other ( which often is the case ) ..then the net result is always a divorce....so i agree with FARANGI KUCH..what was unthinkable 20 years ago is OK now..and that is the sad f@#$%%ing reality of our times, that everything is sanctioned to be OK...too many of us thinking from the TV mind set ( brain dead thinking !), a TV which glorifies sexual chutiyapa and maginifies the coolness of being lewd...anways..sooner or later..the beast gets the shot in the head and the courtesan dies during her act of innocence.

what happens to decent people like myself and farangi kush ( not to forget a few of the chowkwalas )..?

we can only pray!

and say

Y ME!!?!!

Love

Acerbic Jazbati

p.s the channel doesnt have the B@#$S to publish my vitriolic articles ..dont know why? i love to flutter a few pangs of morality ( if any ) left in the desi lands of wantonness!

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Eklavya#72

``Please read some of Fuzair`s postings before you cast doubt on his religious/national affiliation. ``

Yep. In this context, his post on ``interest free banking`` system was definitely superb and worth reading.

Ref sac #: 78

[There is always a reigning dunce on Chowk. It had been Jay and farangi_kush earlier. Urstruly had a good run recently. AAmir takes my vote for this dubious distinction now although he is facing extremely tough competition from Harimau.]

Because I called for castrating men who believe that women are behaving like whores by being merely alive on Planet Earth?

Or because I point out the thuggery of Islamists that none of you, with all the collective firepower you have and the rich resources of the worldwide web, is able to refute?

Don`t start the slide toward intellectual dwarfism caused by belief in every single word in Al-Kitab.

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There is always a reigning dunce on Chowk. It had been Jay and farangi_kush earlier. Urstruly had a good run recently. AAmir takes my vote for this dubious distinction now although he is facing extremely tough competition from Harimau.

I wish they`d come out with a TIVO with a ``dunce`` fast forward feature for the replies section!!

later

-sac

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You take a very social scientific approach to marriage by arguing in terms of the probabilities attached to different outcomes (marriage or divorce) depending on differences in various independent variables (cultural background, religion, etc). Unlike many of the others, I don`t have a problem with the way you write. I think you make yourself very clear. The one thing that did surprise me was your description of stable marriages among South Asians.

I have seen the opposite. South Asians have a worse time getting along with one another than almost any other group I`ve encountered. The problem is usually an excess of competitive behavior. This also becomes a major factor in their marriages. Most second generation American-Desis come from families where fighting and arguments were common and where spouses seldom bothered to spend quality romantic time together. Other ethnic groups have their own particular marital syndromes, but it would be innaccurate to say South Asian marriages are any better, perhaps stable due to the lack of divorce, but far from happy.

Aamir #73

Aamir says [A muslim women would have kick-A$$ed the unfaithfull ``kirshan` long before!]

Really? Are you sure all muslim women are as liberated as you say they are?

I like to thank Chowk and all readers who have taken time to read and comment.

Every human being passes through a unique experience and that determines his outlook towards life. This article reflects my observations with personal prejudices. Here are answers to few questions that readers asked.

-The statistics indicate that one of two marriages fail in the USA. That makes a divorce rate of 50%.

- Gay and marriage are two terms in contradiction. The marriage is generally a committment undertaken with the blessing of any religion. If a person does not believe in religion, then in USA they can live together or find a religion that accepts

Gay marriages.

-I agree that economic situation of women keep them in marriage and I have seen many of them. As women gain more financial independence the divorce rate among Desi people will increase. Perhaps, this is one of reason that next generation of South Asian has a higher divorce rate.

Lastly, I like to submit that Ideas do not die. The institution of marriage developed in all religions and in all cultures to provide children with a stable atmosphere. It is not going away any time soon. So the people should keep the things in a proper perspective and understand the dynamics of this relationship. Most of the problems can be resolved and life can be very enjoyable.

MaheshG # RE:`` astitva ``

I suggest you see the movie. Perhaps it lacks all the bells and whistles of a typical bollywood film, so maybe it was not received well in India. It does not cater to the general public, but just to a mature audience .I dont think the husband [ hero ] was portrayed as feeling guilty, quite the opposite in fact.Some think its about Female Liberalism, but i dont think so. I think it is a very simple plot , with all the complications that can arise out of a very common situation in marriage ---- Lack of realising each others needs , and how to accomodate each other in today`s fast paced life .

sa

Re: Aamir #70

Thank you for pointing out the typo I made. I am indeed hoist by my own petard for not rechecking before hitting the `send` button. However, I see that you choose to not address the substance of my queries but to go off on an entirely irrelevant tangent. Didn`t Ms. ``jewel`` (I do apologize for changing your gender) include both spouses in her analysis?

Incidentally, I also misspelled ``censorship`` in my original post here. What particular bit of `hidden` information does that convey to you? That your typos are honest mistakes and mine are indicative of something else?

At one level, the numerous errors in your posts could be simply due to the fact that you cannot type. At another level, that your education was seriously deficient and that you cannot spell or compose a coherent sentence. At a third, that you have serious difficulty thinking coherently. At a fourth, since you are presumably beyond school age, that you are actually incapable of thinking coherently. Hmmm, I see, different levels of knowledge do come out from seemingly innocent typing errors. I see, its like the Sufi`s Mullah Nasruddin stories: they have different levels of meanings that only become apparent as the level of understanding of the listener/reader increases.

I am indeed curious: do you really not see any difference between your posts and those that attempt to seriously discuss the issues raised? Between the level of analysis in a post by, say, Prof. Bilal and one by, say, Farangi_Kush?

I would appreciate an actual answer from you rather than more vitriol but I fear that I am to be disappointed again.

* * * * * * *

Eklayva: Thank you for your post.

Regards.

AAmir,

Please read some of Fuzair`s postings before you cast doubt on his religious/national affiliation.

I am not a Pakistani but it is painful to see a first-rate person being so insulted.

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Krashid RE:# 66

Yes , the names you mention of Zeba Zuby , and Shahnaz Natalwalla , are very good friends of mine.Infact i am very much in touch with Shahnaz , via e-m, trips back home .Do you remember what a great cricketer she was in her times, a great tabble-tenis player, and a super student, and just such a wonderful personality. She is still the same , after so many years.Working in pakistan. Zeba is in north america, i have unfortunately lost contact with her .From the boys, i can only remember Anwar Mulla. I did not know about the deceased . When did this happen?

Innal illahe //

Seniors to us were really looked with a great deal of inspiration, esp. after passing their proffesional exam, a year ahead of us .Sudenly everyone looked very briliant, even the wasted talents !

Zafar Abbas has a query , if you visit the forums, at chit chat corner, you will know , and there has been a crises in identifing a ``Tanveeer ``. Maybe you can enlighten us !

Now do visit that site , you are being a real traitor , if i may say so !!

Take care ,

sa

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Greetings all. I just got back to the US after a fortnight in Pakistan, and it is nice to see that we have a good discussion going on something useful. The article itself I find flawed since it presents the author`s opinions as facts. We Pakistanis really need to shake this habit of presenting our views as facts.

I happen to differ with much of what is stated: First, I dont think that a high divorce rate is by itself worse than a low divorce rate - indeed, it may reflect a healthier society than one where people are stuck in a marriage where one or both partners is miserable, where the husband bullies the wife, where the in-laws make a wife`s life miserable, or alternatively where the wife ruins the husband`s life in her own way. Also, in the US the wife gets a far better deal from the courts (in terms of alimony payments) and from the law (in terms of enforcing court decisions) in divorce than in Pakistan or India. Second, I think marriages work where both parties want it to work (incidentally, I say this based on over 20 years of being married). The fact that you have the same cultures and values has nothing to do with it. I know people who are happily married to foreign women or men.

Anyway, glad the author picked a good subject to write on.

Shirin #60

Regarding Astitva, the moviemakers had to go overboard to make the guy extremely guilty so that the wife would find sympathy among the audience. From what I heard it didn`t do well in India. The Indian audience is, I guess, still very chauvinistic.

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Shirin Ahmed #60

I think I remember Zafar Faintly. I never thought he would be a good poet.

But in Dow everybody was something apart from studies.

Particularly I liked your class very much for all variety of people and their healthy outlook.

If I am not wrong, Zeba Zubi, Shahnaz Natalwala, Anwar Mullah, Shaheen Malik, Afaq Butt (I think Marhoom), Shafqat Mahmood etc etc. Not to mention the people I previously mentioned.

I don`t know if you know Abdul-Muttallib or not. Dow has not produced such a wasted talent.

Or may be we look at seniors with awe and respect.

Regards.

``...on the other hand, who wants to put up with the once good-looking, now broad-bottomed punjaban with hairy legs whose idea of haute cuisine is chanay ki dal with a tarka of margarine and who cannot take out the trash or swing a golf club ...``.

Hamidm,

Very funny, i have seen some women that fit your description when i was growing up in Delhi.

sridhar

Reply #: 26

``........ the myth of happy and stable desi marriages is just that - poppycock, balderdash and bunkum bosh .......... most desi marriages are unions of convenience driven by the need to sanctify fornication, procreate and ensure the survival of a silly species -...``

hamidm,

For once i agree with you. That is what marriage is for most Indians (and i guess Pakistanis too). I know some liberated men/women in this forum may disagree.But then was this not what God intended in the first place. Some of us who think they are smarter ascribe more meaning to marriage than there is.

Family has been an important unit in our cultures and marriage has fostered family life for centuries. My maternal grandfather in a small town in South India had 12 children. I have seen my grandma slog all day and night caring for her children while my grandpa (who was a lawyer)earned his living. Today,some would say my grandpa abused my grandma. Was my grandma happy? I do not know but she certainly did her job extremely well. I am sure many others in this forum have similar stories. The fact is the great culture of that region was built on such sacrifices especially by women. Today my sister in USA is making a similar sacrifice. After having her first kid,she opted to be a home-maker and quit her job as a software engineer in a big company in Connecticut. Is she happy? I think she is. You may argue that she had no choice but i do not agree. She could have gone on in her job and compelled her husband to share work and all that crap that Americans talk about (he does a lot more than share work)and made things difficult for both. I think she made the right choice and thereby made her marriage that much more successful.

So,i think successful marriages are about right balance between want and needs and sacrifices (interest of both partners before self-interest). It is because latter is not understood in western cultures we see one of the partners invariably shouting ``why me,why not you``. That is why the divorce rate is high in Western cultures and in people in the east who have not found the right balance between the 2 cultures.

sridhar

Re: Aamir`s posts

I, for one, find it quite difficult to decipher your writing. Since it seems that I am not the only one `misunderstanding` your posts, might I suggest that you read through your post and edit it (for logic, coherence and spelling) BEFORE you hit the `Send` button? From the way you write, I can only conclude that you belong to the Urstruly, Farangi Kush, Asif Naqshbandi group of incoherrent babblers who spew first and think later. Although, in all fairness to you, I must add that you do seem to be somewhat less virulent than the aforementioned posters.

Incidentally, your post #57 shows that you missed the point of Jawahara`s #48 entirely since he wrote:

Until someone has the freedom to leave and still chooses to stay because s/he wants to, a marriage cannot be termed successful. A successful prison maybe, but not a marriage.

The last time I looked, ``s/he`` referred to both males and females so its use covers both spouses in a marriage. Therefore, your pouty little diabribe simply indicates your inability to understand even the simplest of ideas. Hmmm..., why doesn`t that surprise me?

Kindest regards.

First of all the writer should stick to his primary field and second keep his observation to himself.

``Marriage is legalized prostitution`` - B. Shaw

Aamir # 57

Making sacrifice is certainly noble, but you can not claim nobility if you are also, at the same time, enforcing a relationship of dominance in which only one side has the `freeddom` to make sacrifices.

Nobility requires freedom of choice. Else, it becomes impossible to distinguish between nobility and (economic, social) slavery.

Krashid # 51 and 59

Yes I remember Aleem reciting this ghazal in Moin Auditorium. You know Razi Muhammad , is the brother of ZafarAbbas , and Qamar Abbas , who write at the forums.Razi was actually in my class.

He is now in Mirpur Khas were he has started the Muhammad Medical College .

Zafar and Qamar are great shairs too. They have posted some masterpieces at the`` poetry cafe .``

I somehow cannot place the other two somehow !though Sharikh kind of rings a bell .

BTW, you came , you saw, you went ...... did`nt see you at the forums after your initial visit ? why ?

do visit it !There have been some very interesting additions!

On a separate note :

Dear All,

I saw a very interesting Indian movie called ``Astitva ``. *ing Tabbo [ Shabana Azmi`s cousin ]. I am not too much of a fan of these bollywood churnups , but this one is a very serious , and well made movie .It kind of relates to marital problems, so i thought it appropriate to mention it in this thread .

Regards,

Shirin

p.s. It will be very nice to hear other`s view points on this movie . Lots of issues there , which need to be watched with an open mind, and a good eye !

Shirin Ahmed #32

The other guy name I now remember.

Shariq Ali.

Woh Jub Aaye Gi Tarteeb Se Rakh Jaye Gi

Bus Yehi Sooch Ke Kitaboon Ka Bikhra Dena.

(or similar)

And Razi`s Poem

Log Hawa Mein Roz Banayen Mehla Aur Do Mahla Saeen

Tum Bhi Apne Rishta Is Mitti Se Rakhna Saeen.

(or similar)

One of senior to ours wrote.

Aaj Ki Shab Hai Jo Karna Hai Woh Kur Guzro Tum.

Kal Na Phir Is Shehr Ki Wadee Mein Sawera Ho Gaa.

Zahra #

Marriage is like return to Khilafat-e-Rashida rule.

The myth is broken once you marry or implement Khilafat-e-Rashida.

The myth is broken once a person marries. And then life means adjustment to new realities.

Our films and Poets have created a myth, which for practical purposes has no value in majority of situation. (And anyway most films end at marriage for good reasons I suppose:-))

One shold ideally be very practical to have a successful marriage.

And in saving a marriage, it is the other factors like family, etc which play a major role.

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I liked the way the writer has identified the high-level categories, but after going over the views under those categories, I feel they are very personal than applicable to all and sundry.

I have a problem with the following statement. The order of precedance was kind of upside down.

``The successful marriages require support systems, common values, and shared aspirations in addition to love and mutual understanding.``


It should be according to my view:

``The successful marriages require compatibility love and respect, alongwith shared aspirations, common values and support system.[I am not very convinced on that].``

If two individuals are responsible and mature then they can create the support system around them. They don`t need the typical one! I am not trying to downplay the role of support system, but I think our marriages give so much importance to these ``systems`` and other buzzwords that they ignore the individuals in that relationship. Something to think about!

PS: With all said, I feel the writer has identified these concepts and categories based on his/her observations and experiences, so there is some validity to the points. As an mun maujee, it is a little hard to relate to all of them.

Well culture conformity does play but it all depends how much you are ready to make roads. I am married to a European girl for 14 years and our feelings for each other are so very real and honest and we makes sacrifices honestly and fairly.

RE: ali1 # 33

Yes the author of the ghazal is Obaidullah Aleem.It is indeed a beautiful ghazal .Thanks for the kind words .

Shirin

This cut and paste related to marriage is from this week Friday Times. Answers are by aunty Go Go.

Dear Aunty Go Go.

I have three proposals for my daughter (Sunni virgin); one from an income tax officer, one from a Captain and one from a Naval Officer. Which should I choose? My husband is an accountant.

Your, Tisket-Tasket, Murree.

Dear Tisket Tasket,

I am sure you didn`t lose your yellow basket. You have a problem, but with Aunty Go Go`s SFF system success might kiss your feet as they say in Urdu movie. My SFF- Sure Fire Formula is a very advanced system. Dump the naval guy as they are losers because there are no more submarines to be bought and rake in commissions on. I would have been in favor of the Income Tax bloke but with this new law, these boys are going to be history without any money. That leaves the Captain. Go for him. The Captain might in time become president, your cutie will then be First Lady and you the First Mom-in-law.

Yours Aunty Go Go.

Dear Aunty Go Go,

Our daughter has fallen for this wierd creature with flashing eyes, straggly beard and a green turban, which has frightened our cat and made it into a nervous wreck. He is a born again Jihadi and wants to wreak havoc on the forces of evil. Thank God we are not them so far. The Taliban are his ideals and he danced for hours when the Bamiyan statues, whatever they are, were broken. What shall we do?

Yours, Refundo, Bannu.

Dear Refundo.

Read the book ``How to love the green men without really trying`` by Gautam Khan. Your daughter may be wiser than you give her credit for- credit in any case is banned by green men. The day is not far when we shall be all looking for the straggly beards and flashing eyes as the future belongs to them. When that happens, and happen it will- ask GHQ if you don`t believe me- your daughter while under many wraps, will be one powerful woman and you one powerful mom. Things may not be smooth in the beginning, but those who can loot an already looted country can do anything. Keep your fingers crossed- an activity not banned so far.

Yours Aunty Go Go.

Farzana Warsi #31

I not only agree with you.

But will propose to marry all Jazba 99 to Jazbati 2001 to understand the true nature of whore like characterstic of women.

So as to learn to respect women rather than seeing them as ``Milkiat``.

Shirin Ahmed #32

Do you remember Aleem has read this Ghazal in ``Moin Auditorium``

I remember Syed Razi Mohammad of your class a very good poet himself.

There was another very good poet, I am forgetting his name who was also table tennis champion.

Harimau #34

Although I avoid talking to a ``BadZaat`` like you.

But the difference between you and me is that you condone ``Devdasi`` system while I condemn it.

PM #38

Don`t you mean that F-K like all criminals uses Islam to hide his crimes.

I may concur with you somewhat.

The reason, instead of raising issues, there is Ba-Ba Blackship theory while living in Ba-Ba Blackship land. There is an Islamic theory and there is a local theory.

At the hands of a person taught in Grammar school, suddenly found the bliss of Islam and start hammering the poor souls who cannot afford mediterranean every two months.

Charlatan or Criminal. Your pick.

Aamir #46

The second to last paragraph of your response was rather telling, despite the dilution of the sentiment in the last paragraph.

So, if the woman is responsible for breaking up the family, it would be preferable for her not to have any options, financial or otherwise. Interesting! What good is she to you?, you ask. I ask, how good are you for her, when you talk of her in such terms. I imagine that is what slave masters thought/said about slaves.

Until someone has the freedom to leave and still chooses to stay because s/he wants to, a marriage cannot be termed successful. A successful prison maybe, but not a marriage.

Aeisha

``You are a product of `old` type marriage,& untill you can produce some one BETTER than yourself through whatever bohemian system of co habitation,we like to be less adventurous``

....... let me see now ......... let`s start with T.E. Lawrence, Jesus (son of God), James Smithson (of Smithsonian fame) and Adam abu Abel and Cain ( of unknown parentage ) ........ now, you must admit those guys were a lot better than me ........... does that make you feel adventurous ?

....and think about it - cain was the product of a conventional marriage ... but with a mom like eve, who got us thrown out of the garden of eden, what do you expect ..........

re.F_K: ``Just like our individual spiritual quest,it is ones solemn responsibilty to bring up a family & work towards it as diligently as one does towards a another career...The turbulence would subside eventually.Humans want to make their own mistakes & are eventually the better for it.``

Yeah, right! Tell that to the millions of womenfolk in rural Sindh and Punjab! Oh yeah, I can see it now `` fear ye not, your deliverance is near... a change of heart is about to come over your subjugating menfolk... already they are relenting on the necessity of honor killings... soon they will allow you an education, freedom from an 18 hour workday and 12-child-bearing lives, and eventaully economic independence ....and all this the outcome of their spiritual quest, not through the artificial mechanisms of state coercion as used in the Evil West.

Get Real!!!