The Sage

temporal ... hi again ...

``---this thinking is fraught with danger...first,…who is this ‘writer’?…a novice or an average writer or someone perhaps above average?…will agree if the writer you mention is the former…but if the writer is the latter…she would have a pretty good idea about her tools…words…their power…and how others may use and perceive the avalanche good word usage opens up…(as a percursor of ideas and thoughts)...``

if the writer writes once in a very blue moon … in a certain kind of way … and cannot indulge either her own desire to write or the readers desire to read … how would you decide whether you were dealing with a novice or not …

I was going to ask what defines a professional … but then I remembered your list of writers - though one would not call them professionals – but rather individuals inspired … by the context of their lives – but I am in danger of digressing myself … where some people consider rushdie`s and garcia marquez`s use of ‘words’ phenomenal, others find their writing unnecessarily complicated …

Inner demons … ``another word to more or less describe conviction, khalish, kurb, durd, turmoil, sensitivity to happenings around and beyond one’s control?`` and more … who am I, what am I, why am I … life seems to become suddenly far more complex when you begin to ask these potentially answerless questions … maybe that’s why those ‘inadvertant pasbaans’ slowly emerge as mere mortals … because the answers to those questions are too complex, their implications for life, love, desire, ambition far too demanding … not every one was a willing pilgrim … or were they (my recollection of pilgrims is nothing if not vague - though of course im assuming again that my randome references are being understood but then i think you were too ...)

Maybe its best to live life as the ever optimistic ‘gentle folk’ … at least you live in hope rather than in despair … the fine line between realism and cynicism seems to be getting ever finer …

But then again - so what if you get broad sided as an elitist … better that than a complacent, ignorant (in the broadest sense of the word!) hypocrite …

I want to say ‘hypocrisy can be a convenient cloak for ‘conviction, morality, sensitivity, conscience’… but the phrase actually means the reverse of what I want to say … does that make sense ?

dL

What a pristine board#

Untouched by Dirty Dozen.

Godot

I would have agreed with you a hundred percent if the intro would have been written by the author herself coz i myself was rather amused when i first read the `Qaseeda`..... and slv21 really is taking it a little too personally ;)

But i don`t agree with you where the poem is concerned. I do believe that it has a deeper meaning.I in fact loved it. I think what dL is trying to say is that if circumstances become rough or difficult, in spite of being afraid or lonely one must never be afraid to take a risk .Critics would always be there so no attention should be paid to them and who knows what a person`s courage would do for him.

Am i right dL ??????

Re Asim # 3

Do you actually believe that a person who doesn`t visit home frequently does not have strong roots ?????? Are that what roots are all about ???

dL #30:

[…hope to read your piece soon and you are very welcome to use `my` board ...
---thank you..am still chipping away at it…should be done by next Saturday…and will post it here…:)

[…as for the tashreeh, i`d agree that writer`s can potentially become so comfortable with the context of their own writing they don`t realize that some readers at least will flounder…]
---this thinking is fraught with danger...first,…who is this ‘writer’?…a novice or an average writer or someone perhaps above average?…will agree if the writer you mention is the former…but if the writer is the latter…she would have a pretty good idea about her tools…words…their power…and how others may use and perceive the avalanche good word usage opens up…(as a percursor of ideas and thoughts)...

...(digressing here: told you earlier there’s no shortage of that some days:)…

…he ( the above average writer) could be good, very good or genius…Faiz(at par with Noon Meem Rashid), Iqbal or Ghalib…OK, so I let a slight personal bias filter through…but you know…hopefully…what I am hinting at?:)…without indulging in a critique of their psyche and poetic abilities…the litmus test of popularity…(again not necessarily the ONLY test of their writing skills…for instance…booksellers sell one Rashid book to a thousand Faiz…but in my view they have just about similar impact )…attests to this…their ideas survive and outlast their times… mainly due to their effective usage of words to transfer and imbibe those ideas and strike the emotive chords in the readers today…(hopefully you will not launch an skirmish by asking me to identify this ‘reader’:)...

[... Still I wonder, do most people not have `inner demons` as it were, to contend with ...]
---great!…now I don’t need digressions…like duracell…can go on and on…:)

…what is ‘inner demon’…is it another word to more or less describe conviction, khalish, kurb, durd, turmoil, sensitivity to happenings around and beyond one’s control?…

…and then you mention ‘most’ people…while I pay sufficient homage ...elsewhere... to the integrity, intelligence, beauty and simplicity of the masses…come to think of it …never have accused them of this special sensitiveness…which now on reflection seems to be the domain of the Cursed, bhatakti roohs…these wandering souls of creativity…they are the ones afflicted with the inner turmoil that propels them into a frenzy of creativity … they are the unwilling and inadvertant ‘paasbaans’ of collective conviction and perhaps more… morality, sensitivity, conscience?…

(… therefore, no, most gentle folks are not blessed or warmed by any inner turmoil or demons…they are the kind we witness everywhere…with varying degrees of faith…the ever ‘sucker’ or the ever hopeful… the kind that distribute sweets when an old soldier has fallen…look at the new usurper with glazed eyes..not learning from the past…anything, not even the most obvious lessons … and give them all the benefits of doubts …till the tides of times brings on newer usurpers...and then they distribute sweets yet again for the newer ones…sadly the ever-optimist…sadly the ever-sucker … sadly the ever indulgent…the one trait common…they never stand up and fight for their rights…they leave it all to forces beyond their control…yeah, am aware here that I could be broad-sided as an elitist...which I am not...or the usual epithets hurled here with abandon none...but that is another digression:) )

…but then there are times when I see these ‘paasbaans’…these guardians that I hold in such esteem lower themselves without reason…they become ‘mortal’…they display naivete bordering on callousness…and contempt…for the other thinking minority…and in their apathy, arrogance, or unmindfulness they lower themselves…or perhaps it is me…should not have put them on high pedestals in the first place…these are perhaps ‘occupational’ hazards teachers warned us against…thanks again for allowing the use of your board.

Love,

t

dl #21 #14(?) Thanks for explaining Plato`s cavemen and croweaters. I really think you poets should be required to provide footnotes to such references just like firms are required to provide footnotes to their financial statements so people understand what those numbers represent. Otherwise how is a reader to know you are talking about the South Asia ``kawway khanay walay`` (as you meant) and not the US style ``croweaters`` (as I thought). But anyway, enough complaining: Now your poem starts to make sense. And dont mind Godot. He is just miserable because he still doesnt get it.

slv21 #19 Thanks to you as well for providing the extract from Plato`s Republic. I guess if these was Plato`s Islamic Republic the cavemen would be the Pakistani public as it watches shadows of military men run after shadows of politicians who run after shadows of dictators. But I digress...

temporal

you are right and i shall stop obsessing about the intro!

hope to read your piece soon and you are very welcome to use `my` board ... in fact thats one way of ensuring i get to read it ...

as for the tashreeh, i`d agree that writer`s can potentially become so comfortable with the context of their own writing they don`t realize that some readers at least will flounder. Still I wonder, do most people not have `inner demons` as it were, to contend with ...

thanks again for your support ... i`ll be keeping an eye out on the 13/14th of May ...

cheers

dL

Re: dL, #24

``the search for truth as slv2l suggested.`` This sentence makes no sense. My moniker notwithstanding, I did not see that slv21 was talking about ``the search for truth`` in his post (that is if you are referring to his post #22.) And what is the truth, that is, according to you and slv21? Or both of you still looking for it? Have checked the garage?

Re: dL, #23

I expressed my opinion of your poem in my post #21, irrelevant of your intro.

If I were you I`d reassess the friendship that put that intro as if you wrote it. Better to have a clever enemy than a fool for a friend.

Re: slv21, #27

Jealous of what? Please list.

Sounds like you are the ``friend`` who put dL in this mess and caused her embarrassment.

Re: Godot

``jealousy, the green eyed monster that doth mock the very flesh it feeds upon``

DL:

…may I?…

…four years did you say?…hmmmm…there is hope yet…should tell my friend…but am not serious…any more…

…digressions…(there’s no dearth of them somedays:)...

…of the 25 or so interacts only 3 dwelled on the ‘unfortunate’ intro…and there were perhaps as many or more that came to the rescue of the damsel:)means you already have a following of some sort...good for you…:)

…tashreeh…hmmm…haven’t heard this word in a long time…sometimes it is inevitable…you will understand what I mean if you read these interacts regularly… on Mother’s Day…sometime around May 12 or 13 I intend to post an Urdu poem tentatively titled “MaaN say”…am working on it presently…and as I sent the first draft to a couple of friends for feedback….(six stanzas ….a standard page length)…the glossary ran into a page and half…must admit a lot of it was superfluous for them…but still….there are some terms that do need an explanation of sorts….hence if you are around….and also depends on how well your Urdu comprehension is….see if you can read it w/o the glossary/explanation…and give me an honest feedback…(...if you do not mind I will use this board...or I can go straight to the speaker`s corner..)...

…going back to the intro…perhaps Saima should directly check with the first time authors for their intro before publication…I know of at least two intros…that should not have appeared at all…in one case because the author thought she was ‘communicating’ with the editors…not writing a racy, outrageously funny and risque intro to her piece!…and in the other that intro was submitted by someone other than the author…as it appears in your case…

…finally, a query…are you familiar with Desani’s sage?…

love,

temporal

Re: slv21,#22

``shed some light on what specific aspect of this piece remotely suggests that `dL` may be, in point of fact pre-occupied with praising her self or eager to prove that she is all but conventional.``

- Her little write-up at the end of the poem describing herself suggests that she`s nothing but.

``Your comments merely suggest that you find it difficult to appreciate creative thought and would rather be demeaning and critical of anything remotely unconventional``

- If you understood my comments you would have figured that I find it difficult to appreciate what I consider mediocre and conventional, not the other way round as you seem to imagine; hence my criticism of the poem and of, as you put it, ``Self love, bordering on narcissism and just plain conceit.``

``If its simplicity you seek, why not summarize and simplify the works of all poets. Condense all creative and expressive works in to one word``

- I do seek simplicity, but are you suggesting that no poets are simple and yet profound and complex? What about T S Eliot (his Four Quartets comes to mind)? And isn`t poetry already condensed thoughts? Isn`t poetry`s goal is to say much in as few words as possible? And why are you harking back to ``The Sage`` as being a creative creation. For me it isn`t. And whatever merit ``The Sage`` may have, the self-praise, self-congratulatory ``unconventional`` and conceit killed it for me.

Condense all creative and expressive works in to one word.. ``What I consider courage, the poem calls ``uproot your life...rape your imagination...pillage your sense of security...`` Sure, makes perfect sense, who needs metaphors, analogies or abstract expression.``

- You know not what I meant, and don`t ask me. Those readers who meant to understand it, did.

`what fools these mortals be`. Very true.

tahmed: croweaters is from Bapsi Sidhwas Croweaters ... she uses it to refer (if I remember correctly) to Parsis who according to her have a habit of talking nineteen to the dozen ... I have of course used it more generally and am not referring to Parsis in any way, shape or form ...

godot: the search for truth as slv2l suggested. with your moniker one would imagine you would have picked up on it ... but as you said to each his own.

this process reminds me of the tashreehs we had to do in school ...

cheers

dL

re Godot and anyone else who gets caught up by the intro:

THIS POEM WAS SENT IN BY A FRIEND AND THE INTRO WAS WRITTEN BY HIM.

Please comment on the poem which is mine ... and leave the intro alone which is simply a compliment from one friend to another - nothing more nothing less at least to the readers of chowk.

Thanks

Re: Godot

Self love, bordering on narcissism and just plain conceit. Pray shed some light on what specific aspect of this piece remotely suggests that `dL` may be, in point of fact pre-occupied with praising her self or eager to prove that she is all but conventional. Your comments merely suggest that you find it difficult to appreciate creative thought and would rather be demeaning and critical of anything remotely unconventional. Nevertheless, to quote you “Well, to each his own!”

If its simplicity you seek, why not summarize and simplify the works of all poets. Condense all creative and expressive works in to one word….. “What I consider courage, the poem calls ``uproot your life...rape your imagination...pillage your sense of security...” Sure, makes perfect sense, who needs metaphors, analogies or abstract expression. Ask Godot, and yea shall have a single word. Wonder why people find it so difficult to be objective. “How dare dL praise herself, allow me to present her true colors and expose her mediocrity…… “ ‘what fools these mortals be’

Re: the Poem

The poem is simply telling those readers who have migrated to foreign lands and are confused, to get hold of themselves. There`s nothing more to it than that.

What I consider courage, the poem calls ``uproot your life...rape your imagination...pillage your sense of security...`` Well, to each his own!

Re: Bina, #14

By praising herself so high, I don`t think the author meant the readers are idiots, just that she is too good to be true. I think the author sees ``dL`` as her alter ego. But again, if ``dL`` was all that she claims to be, she would not have said it; she would just be.

This poem, contrary to dL`s claim that she ``transgresses the norms of conventional thoughts,`` is nothing but conventional thought. Small d and capital L is the only unconventional thing about her! Now, that`s deep!

Re: dL

Judging from your self-praise, and as reflected by your poem, you think of yourself far more than what you actually are, an indication that you have not been around much.

dL

Loved your work. Give us more, be it from England or Pakland.

wax

Re: tahmed321

You obviously have not read ` the Republic`

`` And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground cave, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the cave; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

I see.

And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.

Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

Yes, he said.

And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?

Very true.

And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

No question, he replied.

To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

That is certain.

And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

Far truer. ``