The Chicken Hawks Of Pakistan

Sattar 2#

You are wrong on many counts.

My teacher and mentor in my early and formative life was Qadiani. I have full RESPECT for him and his beliefs. I told him a while back that there are no more teachers like him any more. And he told me that there are no more students like you anymore also.

While in medical school I have worked closely with a Qadiani in politics. He was senior to me, for a common aim.

Saying this we are talking in terms of debate.

As I said it does not matter what you think of yourself. God or Muslim or Qadiani. Muslims don`t accept Qadianis as Muslims. That is an established fact.

There is no certainty that Mirza Ahmed was promised Messiah. And most Muslims believe that he was not. It is also evident from Hadith when Jesus will arise from somewhere in Arabian peninsula. Also he will kill Dajjal etc etc. (If you believe in all these. Among Muslims some have even questioned the second coming of Jesus as this is not in Quran). There are no such incidences in the life of Mirza Ahmed. Instead of subjugating Kuffar, he was not safe even in his own home among Muslims.

Also although many people have been persecuted by Mullahs wrongly, but also it is a known fact that prophet PBUH himself send army to fight Muselma Kazzab who proclaimed himself as prophet. Also Abu-Bakr RZAH send many expeditions to fight false prophet like ``Sujah`` etc.

Also better not discuss the Rationality of Irrationality of Kashmiri Jesus.

hobbyty # 387

You make good points. I hope the critical mass you mention comes into existence, and all of us are able to rescuse Ijtehad from reactionary hands. So long as we fail to do so, we will continue to divide humanity and fight one another.

Re Krashid (#324):

Reading your post one cannot but sense a strong anti-Ahmadiyya bias that you harbor. Word of advice: unnecessary resentment only compromises the quality of one’s thoughts, words, and actions. At the risk of getting into a full-fledged debate, I would briefly respond to some of the issues you have raised. The idea is not to prove myself right, or you, wrong, but rather to show you that some of your assumptions may be incorrect and need to be re-examined. Remember, there are two sides to a coin.

You are correct that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) brought a new religion, and hence this religion was given a new name, i.e. Islam. We Ahmadi-Muslims have not brought a new religion. Rather we believe in Islam, the religion revealed to Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), and also in the absolute guidance of Quran. We believe that the Promised Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib (pbuh) did not bring new Sharia (Law), but reaffirmed ever-lasting status and truthfulness of Quran. As it turns out, this is not a new phenomenon. As Quran tells us, Prophet Moses (pbuh) was given the Law of Torah for the guidance of Israelites. Later on, other prophets were sent to Israelites. These were non-Law bearing prophets, who attested to the truthfulness of Law of Torah, and merely brought Israelites back to the teachings of Torah. Jesus (pbuh) was one such prophet.

In essence, Ahmadis believe in the absolute authority of Quran and the highest status of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). In Quran Allah has given the name “Islam” to the faith of the followers. Who gave you the authority to take this name away from Ahmadi-Muslims? Are you, or the mullahs, in any position to override the commandment of Allah Almighty? I do not think so!

You point out the strong Muslim tradition of persecuting fake religions. Persecution by the clergy does not automatically make one a “kafir”. My understanding is that numerous great divines have been persecuted by corrupt mullahs throughout the history of Islam. Also, weren’t the clergy members unanimous in their condemnation of Jesus (pbuh) as an impostor? And bear in mind that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself was persecuted every which way for spreading the message of Allah! Every new religion/sect, whether right or wrong, has been persecuted throughout the history the mankind. Persecution of Ahmadi-Muslims is nothing new. Basically it is history repeating itself.

As for “certificate of Quadnism given by US and UK for services against Islam” …. I think you are incorrect. You may be referring to one (esp. one from Pakistan) declaring himself an Ahmadi-Muslim and claiming asylum in US or in UK, on grounds of religious persecution. You are misinformed about this “certificate of services against Islam” nonsense. You make it sound like the US, the UK, and Ahmadis (oh, did I forget Israel) are somehow involved in this global conspiracy against Islam. This is utter nonsense and those who believe in it are fools.

And I have no idea what you mean when you write, “As far as Jesus migrating to Kashmir more RATIONAL and STILL ALIVE even more rational. Ask any rational person on chowk about the rationality of irrationality.”

Krashid Sahib, I do not see any point in discussing this issue with you any further. You have already made up your mind and condemned Ahmadi-Muslims as kafirs. There is no power on this earth that can make a blind see. Unless you yourself make an effort to get to the truth, I certainly cannot help you. I hope your dogma serves you well. As for me, I am satisfied being an Ahmadi-Muslim.

Re hobbyty (#309):

Thanks for your encouraging comments. Yes, greater understanding and tolerance among followers of all religions would benefit everyone. Worshipping God Almighty and having compassion for one’s fellowmen would be the hallmarks of such a society.

Of course much is wrong with “mullahism” in Pakistan. You are right in stating that one should not give up hope. Allah can turn people’s hearts around, and giving up on people would be equivalent to giving up on blessings from Allah. Such is the message of Quran and examples set by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). If I fall short on this issue, it would be only due to weakness on my part. And I hope and pray that that never happens.

Regards,

Asad

hobbyt #387
I need a little time to reply, thanks.

upman7626 #388
Thanks for your post.
The issue I mentioned is:
http://www.frontlineonline.com/fl1519/fl151900.htm
I suspect the problem with a journalist being highly and overtly political is that he maynot be very successful in the `credible` journalism business if his strong views donot take, however much personal integrity he possesses. People generally prefer to make up their own minds and hence seek information and views in the media for all sides of an issue.

The Hindu newspaper at least does indeed have a reputation for painstaking attention to publishing norms and integrity of reporting, though.

Re the redness of Kerala vs WB, I donot know enough, though thank you, what you relate is interesting. I have been a little puzzled by the `grassroots level` violence and murders which always occurred in Kerala whenever the CPM was in power. We recently saw a lot of it in WB too. Wonder whether it was ever the topic of learned discussion among the sanchi-wallahs along with the war:)? (about which I know very little unfortunately)

I agree Kerala is very thinking and liveable, though I wish there were better employment opportunities when I was looking. Its better now I believe, but only just. So which revolution :)? The local headload workers unions have become so painful with their conditions that people have taken to moving home in the middle of the night to escape their attention (and I am not joking).

But hey I remember once I was travelling home by train on an overnight journey and this gang of students climbed in. You would expect that they would be rowdy, it was a small station and the train was really overcrowded. But no, one of them sat down at the edge of the already crowded seat and started writing out his Calculus exercises. The others stood at the door and discussed Garcia Marquez. Nothing unusual, a member of the Kerala Police football team which was also travelling was sitting in a corner reading Vivekananda or something like that. And I thought `only in Kerala` :)

Cheers

Couple of thoughts:

1. It is good for Pakistan`s CE to position himself as the next ``People`s/Political`` President rather than go down in history as a military dictator who overthrew an elected government. His threats, PPP-Bhutto and PML-Mr Sharif and MQM leadership are outside the picture and in fact are in wilderness.

2. From the Indian side, it is a good win-win for Vajpayee post-Tehelka expose and the beatings BJP received in elections in many states. The BJP needs something to show as ``victory`` in crucial elections coming up in UP and other states.

3. It may have something to do with pressures from international forums but not much. India is a big country with huge population to sustain any kind of pressure. Ditto with Pakistan.

4. China may have pressured Pakistan but not India.

Reason: It has its own problems with Taiwan, Tibet=Dalai Lama. In fact, Dalai Lama was well received in Washington and because he is hosted by India, Washington would have known that India is being a good host to Dalai Lama and the Tibetian cause. So, India can play the Tibet card.

5. Now for the million-dollar question: What happens to the J&K held by China. Shouldn`t that be in the bargaining table. After all, that is part of J&K. What about the Hindus in Jammu and Buddists in Ladakh? If the theory as propagated by the Hurriet is that it is supposed to be majority rule, then India before independence had majority of Hindus. Did Muslims get Pakistan? So that arguement doesn`t wash out.

Thanks.

Hariharan.

sadna # 385

...i did not read the isssue you mention, but did hear about it ...and there could be a point there...N ram is a very political person, but not the usual kind, sucking upto the congress or BJP and expecting favours or prominence in return, switching ideologies with those in power....he supports the leftist line sitting in TN!...and does it in his own, unassuming style....note arundhati roy`s comments about him to tehelka:

http://www.tehelka.com/aspsite/rightstory.asp?id1=literary+review&id2=reviews&id3=INTERVIEWS&id4=20000623844&fname=lr040201roy%5Fint3%2Ehtm

``In fact, I actually told Tarun (Tejpal, editor-in-chief, tehelka.com) I would have taken two or three people into confidence before breaking the story, and one of them would have been N Ram (editor of Frontline), because he`s not the kind of chap who would be interested in getting the credit or whatever, and he has his blind spot on his CPM thing, but he`s a very big heavy weight. He is a known political person and he thinks politically and he has a lot of gravitas. And I felt that that was needed. If I had been tehelka, I would have shown two or three people like him the tapes and when the film was released I would have had these guys there on the panel ready to really spell out the significance of the thing.``

...i doubt many journalists in india are like that...if N Ram is saying something, i would give it a careful listening- because i know of his sincerity of purpose....he could still be wrong though....

I remember a Frontline issue which had a cover int`w with Rushdie N Ram had done in London, which he ended suggesting a forum to get rushdie back to India...i`d mailed him a letter (my first to Frontline) suggesting that he should start something about it....i got a long, signed reply in about 5 days where he detailed plans and suggestions ...from which i realized that here was a guy who thinks beyond circulation figures and is passionate about what he writes....

re. china etc : i dont know what this particular issue was about, but i remb as a college student in calcutta, i would argue with these neo-communists about how unreasonable and traitorous they sounded when they supported the chinese view that India was the aggressor in the `62 war (i thought i wasnt just being patriotic, but correct too....and that they were the victims of the famous communist propoganda).....some years later i read an account by Bertrand Russel in which he compared two conflicts- Kennedy`s Cuban missile crisis and the Indo-china conflict and essentially said that the free/western world`s view of these two communist- free worlder conflicts were not necessarily the right one....i had long suspected the former, but that India could be at fault in the latter was a blow....russell also mentioned, how despite his friendship with nehru, he could not support what he had done....you can also read this at rediff.com- a portal since it has Varsha B and Arvind L should be considered patriotic enough :)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/23spec.htm

...it was one in a long series of my getting an altermnate view of events about which i thought, like the majority of middle class India, I`d had the right view.....another would be the Mandal commission, but that is a longer story.....and the strange thing i always found that it would be the leftists who had been saying this all through, and getting dubbed anti-national throughout....

....the Kerala shade of red is a dubious one though...like A.Roy again has mentioned in GOST- it worked within the caste/ feudal setup rather than frontally attack it...unlike in bengal where it did....for e.g. in bengal its infra-dig to be known to have taken dowry, or be picky about caste etc., and most families have two -usually lesser- children ....compare with the situation in kerala...but then bengal has its own share of problems, and kerala its own advantages....but the bottomline is Bengal and Kerala- the two more liveable and thinking states in India- have a substantial Left presence....

...incase i`ve painted myself an incorrigible communist, let me add that i disagree with much of what they say.....firstly the Indian Left should drop the baggage of their hardcore theory..didactic materialism, revolution cycle blah, blah...they should acknowledge the significance nehruvian socialism/secularism/democracy has had in building- with all its faults- modern India, and stop calling it bourgeosie/reactionary etc. etc. ( God, or whatever, knows its already under enough attack from the Right)... it is to a large extent responsible for the liberal sentiment prevailing in most of india, and for having pushed through several social policies against the controlling elitist instincts.....

..and yes, slightly ease its opposition to Liberalization....i`m aware that much of the concerns they voice are genuine and these parading nationalists are not a quarter sincere as their glib talk or witty, clever write-ups....but then we have no other choice.....we cant wait forever for the Revolution....

....since this is Chowk : i remember hearing that the CPI had once pushed through a middle level leader into pakistan in late 50s/ early 60s (with help from the soviets) to start a movement but was arrested (? hanged) in Rawalpindi or something...anybody with inputs?...

...how did this start...anyway here I am in the Promised Land, all those concerns just a pseudo-indulgence.....but guess I can choose my heroes....

btw i think N ram was pretty close to RKN, and he with his (now divorced) wife had authored a biography of him....

Re Sadna #386

Re Eklavya # 381

Solutions need not be south within the Meliu, they need to be related or seen to be confirmed or inspired or given Islamic sanction by reference to Islamic sources. witness, why would the works of Fisaghoures (Pythagorous), Soqrat (Socrates), Arastu (Aristotle), Aflatoon (Plato) and numerous others be translated from the Greek and employed to device Islamic contructs; Answer, itjethad. Enjoyable and instructive, will be your reviewing of the constituition and structure of the Islamic Republic of Iran, in view of Plato`s ``Republic``.

How have the Mullah and conservative schools in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan and Central Asian Republics ``surpressed`` Ijtehad? By becoming the guardians of Ijtehad and Ijma. Deobandi schools in particular, emphasize the teaching of Ijethad, not to seek fresh intgerpretations, but confirm and make an orthodoxy of decisions reached previously. By doing so they refer to previous deciosns and thereby frustrate the argument that fresh interpretations are required.

I need for help with something. I will do the research myself, but I`m missing some material.

There is a advertising concept (I think, it from advertising) The concept argue that for any idea to again ascendancy, a ``critical mass`` momemtum will have said to have been created, if the idea gains acceptance of three percent of the target population. It then become unstoppable, it`s ascendancy within it`s operating environment rassured.

With this in mind, consider where it is that Deobandi rejection is strongest. In precisely those areas with the lowest rate of literacy and the consequent ascendancy and reliance on mullah, for the dissemanation, interpretation and application of constructs said to be Islamic.

You will not in high literacy countries, for example Iran, Deobandi schools do not achieve much success. ( of course, I am not suggesting that all Deobandi schools are primarily focused in this way, but it does constitute an important element of their teaching)

Many Indians may believe that most educated segments in Islamic countries would be well educated about Islam; this is certainly not the case. Islam is a bit dry and legalistic, without the color and quaintness that charterizes it in India, Pakistan and such.

I have argued that we need more Islamic study because a true appreciation of it`s guidance requires an ever educatcable mass. Only without the superstition and it`s present authoritarian and in some places, coersive, character can Muslims confirm their submission to the will of God, that is, their victory over the ecoded agression and brutality of the genetic heritage. (Aristotle`s and later Islamic and later also the Catholic Church`s idea idea of a responsible human being - freedom through restraint -- The God realized super human created by his or her submission as opposed to the ``Super man`` freed from ``moralic acid`` of Nietzsche)

hobbyt #381
Thanks, you were quite clear and I understand what you mean.

``And they will arrive or not at solutions within the context and meliu of their society. Similarly with Islamic societies. ``

``The Mullah, may then argue their opponents creditials, they may argue their opponents ethnicity or nationality or something other than the merit of the argument presented, and in a educated meliu, they will certainly not stand a chance. ``

Only someone from within a `Islamic society` can really comment on these matters, I believe. From general observation, it seems many Christian denominations and churches in the US decide their preferences in matters of religion by voting and public advocacy among communities just like any other democratic choice. So churchgoers exert choice about issues like the role of women in clergy, weightage given to particular scriptural dictates, relationship with other denominations, religious observances and ceremoneis, validity of marriages, divorces, abortion and maybe also attitude towards nonreligious issues.

Similarly Jews in the US have Orthodox, Conservative and Reform variations of religious practice and observance, (which are sometimes mutually unreconcilable, I think). Whether such (mostly I think) unarbitrated choice in matters is acceptable within the fold of Islam is a interesting question only people within Islamic societies can decide.

upman7626 #375
Actually I`m not one of those who has strong views on N Ram because I havenot read much of him or Frontline for quite a while. I was an admirer of both since Bofors days and considered he was a multi-faceted multi-talented person(for eg learnt recently about his close association with RK Narayan esp. in his last days).

Also I am a slight shade of pink myself(having grown up in Kerala) and in addition deeply suspicious of everyone in the BJP except Vajpayee who is himself on perpetual notice as far as I am concerned :). So I am always happy to see the BJP and its Hindutva agenda being given grief on any occasion, within reason or without reason :)..

BUT apparently, soon after Pokharan, N Ram visited China and then published an issue of Frontline almost solely devoted to the Chinese viewpoint. Many prominent Chinese leaders were named and their views were presented at length. All very good but not a single Indian leader or counter opinion got space in that issue if I am right.

It seems to have pissed off even the most balanced people I know(who respected him very much earlier), that the editor did not think fit to include a single counterargument from an opposing point of view. You will notice that reputable newspapers like the NYT when they publish strong opinions, always include a counter opinion, too. It seems unprofessional not to offer the reader even a semblence of a choice.

I think both sides of the nuclear issue in India would accept that the common basis for all arguments is what is good for India and humanity in general in whichever order, NOT what is good for China and humanity in general. Maybe N Ram erred in his publishing judgement a bit, and earned a reputation for himself and Frontline, justified or unjustified.

That said, I am sad to hear that Frontline is losing money. Back when I used to read it, it didnot carry many advertisements as a policy it seemed, which must have made matters more difficult. Hope it survives somehow and sees better days.

dost-mittarji #380

You are most welcome. I came across this reference by chance and am happy to hear that India Seminar is actually a journal of some repute and longevity which had readers like yourself.

Sadhana

hobbyty # 381

Thanks for that explanation. I liked the concepts, both of Ijtehad and of Ijma. I may have slight problem with setting a priori limits on where one could search for the solution of new problems, but I can live with that limitation. Ofcourse, for this excercise to work with any degree of success, Islam will have to be, as you suggested, quite losely (generously) interpreted.

Now, what on earth keeps itjehad, as you say, `suppressed?` Clearly, and as Chowk proves beyond doubt, there is no dearth of Muslims who can think as rationally as can anyone else. How is a small group of people (whom you broadly call `mullahs`) able to browbeat the vast majority of educated, capable, thinking men and women into giving up a religiously sanctioned duty? And, isn`t keeping people from doing what they are religiously enjoined to do (ijtehad) a sacrilege in itself?

upman #360

I would not argue much as I don`t know much about the history of creation of caste.

It may be utilatarian.

But the principle of division of labor with heirarchial basis reminds one of Plato`s concept of slaves, tradesman/soldiers and rulers.

With no chance of moving from one caste to another except by some high feat and generosity of high caste.

It does not at all appeal as utalitarian rather it is totalitarian.

Shankar#

Sare STRATEGIST IS board pur ek doosre ki dharas bandha Rahe hain.

Kia Aap ke Ilawa India Mein Koi Doosra Paindoo Nahin jis Ki Apni Sooch Ho.

Hum to Lalukheti Hain.

Jo Muun Mein Aya Buk Diya. Jo neeche Aya Hug Diya.``

Translation.

All the strategist on this board are there to pat each others back.

Is there no villager apart from you in India who has his own thoughts.

And I am Lalukheti. Whatever comes in mouth speak. Whatever comes down evacuated.

Eklavya #372

Sadna

Eklavya

I`m by no means a scholar, just interested lay business person. Please note the word is IJ-Te-Had

If you suffer me through this post, I assure it will be rewarding and clear for you, that the real struggle for Islamia is within Islamia. and how not only but every person of goodwill can help.

Ijtehad:

a Islamic concept calling for the exertion of maximum scholarly effort to acertain what if any guidance one can derive from Islamic sources to provide guidance in developing a position about a given problem.

I think Sadna was pulling my leg when she asked if there was a Islamic position on how wide a road should or for instance the water pressure. Clearly no Islamic position is required for such, however; circumstanes, in law, ethics and morality, politics and economics. The modern use of this concept is important.

So important is this concept that in my opinion it is at the heart of both the Deobandi school`s rejectionist attitude and it is also the tool used by the Mullah types in both Pakistan and Afghanistan and other Muslim societies.

The Mullah types instead of being scholars, as -there is no clergy in Islam, and Islam requires that the Muslim be educated, that is, be able to read the Quran - in league with feudal masters, deny the use of this concept to arrive at fresh interpretations to give a ideological, moral, ethical and legal cover to solutions arrived at bu engaging Ijtehad, to arrive at Ijma (a concensus of opinion) All persons exhibiting a mastery of scholarly knowledge, especially of Islam (pretty vague) can contribute. Since the Mongol Invasions of the 12th century, Ijtehad as a popluar concept has been nowhere. However; great support exist within educated and semi educated Muslims.

I will call these Mullah types conservative (calling them illiterate know nothings would offend them and some are not). So long as they can suppress Ijtehad, in a society where literacy rate is very low, and keep themselves as a major force in society, a power broker; They wish to treat Islam as if it were a dead religion - they will give you the do`s and don`t - as opposed to Ijtehad, which requires scholarly investigation and debates and the ackowledgement that, even if, everything under the stars can be found in the Quran and Hadith and scholarly works, there are circumstances in which a Islamic position is difficult to discern, therefore scholarly investigation and debate will have to relied upon to arrive at a concensus opinion. (Sorry for the long sentence)

For Instance a bio-chemical process is developed

whereby we have ability to create a servant/slave race? Are there references to this process in Islamic sources? What of the ethical and moral issues for society? What guidance can we seek? Just because we can, does it mean we should? Even if there were a tremendous need for this in society and we were enjoined that to do this, would constitute a economic good, but that animal cells would be required? How would we view such a thing?

All societies will have to deal with these kinds and other questions and circumstances that we have not even thought of yet. And they will arrive or not at solutions within the context and meliu of their society. Similarly with Islamic societies.

(Tanveer Ahmad - The Cling effect

``When it comes to change, one has to distinguish between facts and discourses on facts.` Real progress and advancement that actually have the potential for human development, find their ways in societies like flowing water. If their natural routes are obstructed, they sneak in mysterious and uncontrollable ways. this is precisely what is happening in underdeveloped societies. their theoretical discourses discredit scientific advancement, but facts of progress and development complel their members to adapt to requirements of modernity and technology.``

So, you can see all the elements that conservatives will ofcourse oppose - Education, The free mind and opinion - scholarship - mass participation by activated Muslims (as Opposed to automatons)

The valuation and application of inquiry, i.e. science and reason. The indifference to superstituion. Everything that original Islam valued - except without the power base of the conservatives. The Mullah, may then argue their opponents creditials, they may argue their opponents ethnicity or nationality or something other than the merit of the argument presented, and in a educated meliu, they will certainly not stand a chance.



My knowledge is limited and I can offer little help, perhaps there are others, more knowledgable who can assist our inquiry. and I thank you for your patience.

Dumm musssst qalander dharrrr rrraghrrra

Caution:

Intellectuals at work on chowk

writing important stuff

brooding

thinking hard

feighning visages like the englishman

improving accents in whispering soliquays

Intellectuals

lookin sombre

Important!

Slow:

Intellectual has picked up the pen

now he is consulting important stuff

recalling all he has tried to glean

from all western periodicals,digests

do-it-yourselfers

Intellectual is aware of brand names

he is keenly aware that the stuff in western

papers is the Absolute Truth albeit by a lot

of Truth peddlers.

Yield:

Intellectual is engrossed

in his deep thoughts to find some chink

some peep-hole,some man-hole

to ridicule his parents,ancestors,land

culture religion and those 99%

diametrically across the globe are

toiling night & day,day & night

and are Atlas-like holding him

and his kind hoping that one day he will return

and relieve them of this weight oR

at least lend one more shoulder.

They are not aware that he is trying his best to

distance himself from them.

He doesn`t intend to return

He won`t pay back

He has no shame to default on his promises

He has been taught to do ``what is in Americas` best interest` should be his personal motto and creed also.

P.S:When the mind & hearts are askew

It is no possible to rhyme or reason

it is also a chore to pay attention to

the finesse of grammar & composition

or to find time to figure out

if it is a poem or prose

these are jagged thoughts and are

supposed to saw through your hearts too

as they have mine.

Dummmm mmmsss.......................qlan..

bong_dongs,

er, Mr bong_dongs,

{{Is it I dare say you feel some vestigal parts tugging?}}

Hey! that was pretty good insight!

But it wasnt a VESTIGAL part. Its a very active part; my penis god himself!! And people say I`m bobblitized!! The fact of the matter is that other people cant really see it because it is wrapped in the good ole red, white & blue. So I can understand why THOUGHT it was a vestigal part.