Across the River

Oops.. Did it again!!

``I was not suggesting that Christians (and Hindus) in non-urban areas are treated very badly -- inhumanly.`` should have read...

``I was not suggesting... are NOT treated very badly..``

Thanks Eklavya!

Apparition, to satisfy your curiosity a little...

hmmm.. What was growing up like? lemme see... growth spurts at 4, 9 and 14... zits and facial hair at 16... the usual, y`know... :)

But seriously? Growing up is always fun so long as you having loving family and good friends... Only later do you usually learn how the subtle dicrimination has affteced your outlook on life.

But Pak religious minorities have usually to worry more about class-related injustice than -religious.

rgds.

PM # 36

``Well..don`t just get sad; get mad... and use that anger to drive you into motion. If the enlightened don`t teach the unenelightened, who will?``

Quotation of the week! Very very well said, Patrick.

Apparition #35:

``Being a maseeh who grew up in Pakistan you probably know a lot more about muslim christian relations than I do (even though you were raised in metropolitan Karachi while I grew up all over the country).``

I was not suggesting that Christians (and Hindus) in non-urban areas are treated very badly -- inhumanly. But then, it is not clear how much of that is religious bigotry and how much just plain ol fashioned class injustice.

``It is just that it makes me sad that a Muslim society that is supposed to accept, respect and protect the minorities has chosen to treat them otherwise.``

Well... don`t just get sad; get mad... and use that anger to drive you into motion. If the enlightened don`t teach the unenelightened, who will?

rgds,

PM

Re PM # 34

Being a maseeh who grew up in Pakistan you probably know a lot more about muslim christian relations than I do (even though you were raised in metropolitan Karachi while I grew up all over the country).

It is just that it makes me sad that a Muslim society that is supposed to accept, respect and protect the minorities has chosen to treat them otherwise.

As for my dismissing your earlier post ...... oops :)

P.S just out of curiosity ..... what was growing up like ??????

re. Apparition #33

``Popular words to refer to the Christian community in Pakistan are ‘chooray’ and ‘Kurruntay’. A large number of households employ Christian servants and they might as well be called the untouchables.``

See, here`s a seeming contradiction: Christians are given those appellations by a growing number of Muslim ignorami, brought up on the increasingly bigoted Juma khutba. And yet, open any classified section of an urban newspaper and you`ll see phrases like ``Christian Preferred``, be it for nanny, private tutor or nurse. Look at the class make-up of any queue outside Christians schools on Admissions Day, and again you get a picture that belies any true disdain for Christians per se.

Now it is quite possible that, being the tradtitional hypocrites we are as a people, most Muslims just block out the fact that these schools are actually run by those very folks they

are wont to label with (supposedly) demeaning names. (Not that Chritians don`t have some equally choice, equally peurile, names for Muslims, either). Yet, in my experience in Metropolitan Karachi, I have found that, by and large, Muslims do not disdain Christians as a class (--moral superiority another matter). There are those who, believing all Christians to belong to the `servant and janitor` class, treat and label them disgracefully.

Now I would be only too happy to assist you in your self-flagellation except for the fact that I`ve known upper-class Christians to treat their `step-brothers and -sisters` in the same shameful way. (In all fairness, though, it must be said that that has been changing, as the Christian community in Pakistan is shaking off its own Caste consciousness and embracing egalitarianism).

As an aside, I have also had Hindu land-owning friends who kept Hindu servants and field workers. There was no evidence that these workers were being treated any better under Hindu masters (to call a spade a spade) than under anyone else.

.....

As for your dismissing my statement that separate crockery is kept for servants on the pretext of hygeiene concerns, perhaps Merriam Webster will be of some assistance :)

pretext: (noun) : a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or state of affairs

regards,

PM

(that`s Patrick Masih, just in case you weren`t aware)

Re Scout # 25

I honestly do not believe that I am being too harsh.

Popular words to refer to the Christian community in Pakistan are ‘chooray’ and ‘Kurruntay’. A large number of households employ Christian servants and they might as well be called the untouchables.

Maybe you have been away too long or maybe it is how each of us defines an average Pakistani.

Re PM # 27

‘Under the pretext of hygiene concern’ .............Give me a break.

Re Rsaxena

You seem to have quite a reputation here. I myself was very surprised when not only could I relate to Hindus but to my horror like them as well. But why do we least expect it ? BTW Good luck with the neighbors.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Pervez

``But i want to do something with my life.Lot more than just rasing kids and giving them good education and seeing them through to success.Which by the way I have done. I can not accept the life the way it is.But what should and what can I do?.Now suddenly i feel very poor.``

Guilt, what for and why for?? I think you are being a bit too hard on yourself. Empty nest syndrome - if that is what this is - isnt easy to deal with for both parents and children but you need to give yourself a BIG break. You deserve it!!!! And as I tell my parents - lighten up please and learn to have some fun the rest will fall into place : )

aicha

``Still, I would agree with Akash, on that as many people as possible should be sold the ideas as put forward in the article reprinted in #17.

If this amounts too untruthfulness, well, can we call it a Noble Lie? Wouldn`t the end justify the means??``

PM #22, Akash #17:

An idle question, but who is the article aimed at?

Please help me understand - `has been a clamour for the Indianisation of Islam - based on the wrong premise that Islam and Hinduism are incompatible and so cannot co-exist.` Thanks.

Where are KRashid, Urstruly and a host of other usual Pakistani suspects? Why aren`t they out here decrying a Brahmin conspiracy to brainwash the Muslim slum-dwellers so that they and the Hindu banias can exploit the slum-dwellers?

How I wish the author had not mentioned her heritage. Many Pakistanis would not have guessed Tewari to be a Brahmin surname. And the irony would be complete if Mr. Ramaswamy -- a South Indian as his name indicates -- turns out to be a Brahmin. What is he doing, working to improve the lives of Urdu-speaking Muslims in Bengali-speaking Calcutta, neither being his native language?

But that is the beauty of living in a multi-cultural society. When you live, work, and eat with people different from you, you start peeling away the myths that you might have learnt subconsciously. You understand that everybody is first a human being and then comes the rest of the labels: Bengali/Bihari/Tamil, Hindu/Muslim, Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi, wealthy/poor, industrious/shiftless/unmotivated....

The Ramaswamys, the Seemas, the Prodyuts -- they will all make a dent, albeit a small one, in the nexus of grinding poverty and helplessness that the slum-dwellers face daily. Armchair critics such as the eminent journalist who shall remain nameless will analyze how the money spent by the government was not allocated to the last little penny in proportion to group representation in the total population and think that they have conclusively proved a conspiracy.

Do something. If you can`t walk the slums of Howrah or of Karachi because your career cannot be interrupted, write a check. The money will go not into the pockets of the Ramaswamys but to buy books and pencils for the children, for a sewing machine so that an uneducated woman can earn a living as a seamstress and feed her children, perhaps to pay off the loan sharks who seem to hold these people in slavery for generations.

Give till you can give no more.

And then, give some more.

It is the least you can do for your fellow humans.

Re: PM

``Besides, there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus I know in Pakistan who keep separate glasses and plates for their servants.``

My 81-year-old grandmother in India used to do the same. I managed to convince her to stop but wasn`t as successful with the middle-aged couple living next door. I guess it comes down to the quality of one`s education. My grandmother could be reasoned with - the other 2 were not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree (they both seem to have paid their way into med school.)

Scout, re. #25

``...this is not the general attitude of the average Pakistani...``

Sahih baat hai, behn.

Indeed, I`ve *heard * about Muslims who wouldn`t eat or dink out of dishes used by Christians and Hindus. Never met one, though! Well... a couple, maybe, but they were from Pathan colony, and probably knew as little about Islam as Mr Farrakahn. :-)

Besides, there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus I know in Pakistan who keep separate glasses and plates for their servants -- under the pretext of hygeine concerns!

rgds,

PM

Re: Apparition

``Here in the US (where i have recently moved) i for the first time had close interaction with christians, jews and hindus. I was treated with so much warmth and respect that within days i realized how shallow i really was.``

That`s the beauty of this country. I didn`t grow up hating anyone but I expected Pakistanis to hate me...now a couple of my best friends are Pakistani (shocking as it may sound to those who have seen me sling mud on Chowk). You end up having a lot in common with people you least expect. One of my friends is a recently married Pakistani colleague. She and I didn`t really speak much at first but after we did, surprisingly we became really good friends.

Europe - especially the Netherlands - is even better in this regard. It really opens your eyes.

Apparition #23, `` I remember a time in college when i refused to drink water out of a glass that a christian girl had used first and this is the general attitude of an average pakistani muslim towards non muslims.``

whoaaa, wait a minute? this is NOT the general attitude of an average pakistani, maybe an idiotic bigot/fundo pakistani but not the ``average`` pakistani.

i think u`re being too harsh.

Studebaker, that was a sensible post, more like coming from a neurologist. Actually, as you mention, in India neither Hindu nor Muslim, or Christian can live a singular religious life since the paths cross at every intersection. Young Indians are realizing it more than ever.

All my life i had hated hindus and jews, having various family members in the military probably had a lot to do with it.It is amazing how well we are brain washed.

I remember a time in college when i refused to drink water out of a glass that a christian girl had used first and this is the general attitude of an average pakistani muslim towards non muslims.

Here in the US (where i have recently moved) i for the first time had close interaction with christians, jews and hindus. I was treated with so much warmth and respect that within days i realized how shallow i really was.

People say that this ia a simple truth then why did it take me 22 years to see it ???

re. SameerJB #19,

Dear Sameer,

Your posts was enlightening as usual, and commendable for its seeming objectivity. Thanks for sharing your time this way... TO greater understanding!

Still, I would agree with Akash, on that as many people as possible should be sold the ideas as put forward in the article reprinted in #17.

If this amounts too untruthfulness, well, can we call it a Noble Lie? Wouldn`t the end justify the means??

regards,

PM

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Studebaker #17, Akash #18:

The Times of India article that you reproduced here is, in my opinion, written with the noble intention of bridging the ever increasing split between Muslims and Hindus in India. His quotes are true but selective and misplaced. The author also intentionally ties conversion to Islam with practices and philosophies of many sufis, particularly from Chishti and Qadri schools. An average reader would be fooled into believing that conversion was somehow the result of including Hindu philosophy into sufis teachings. This article is flawed on several accounts. The facts are:

1) Conversion to Islam is much more complex than romanticized version of Sufi influence. The irregular pattern of conversion across sub-continent attests to this fact. Most successful sufis in conversion are largely lesser known ones who acted as middlemen between Ghaznavis, Ghauris, Khiljis, Tughlaqs, Sadats, Lodhis and Mughals. They went after converting tribal chiefs, elders, zamindars and elite using threat and reward strategy. Conversion of bourgeoisie paved the way for the conversion of proletariat. Sufis like Rukn-ud-Din Alam and Makhdoom Shah Jahanian of Suharwardiya school were the most successful ones in Punjab.

2) Most of the conversion took place between 11th and the end of 17th century. Most of the famous sufis of Chishti and Qadri school are from 18th to early 20th century and had nothing to do with conversion. Waris Shah, Bulleh Shah, Sultan Bahu, Khawaja Farid had nothing to do with conversion. Their target was Muslims. They tried to include Indian philosophies into their teachings and practices to bridge the Hindu-Muslim divide or out of genuine convictions. A great Sufi, named Baba Farid Shakargang lived throught the time of conversions but was mostly unsuccessful due to his simple, respectfulness of native beliefs and refusal to act as middleman to convert by hook or by crook. Another famous sufi Data Ganj Baksh of Lahore came to Lahore from the court of Mahmud Ghaznavi. He would not even touch a Hindu, much less to have any respect for native philosophies. He was strict about orthodox Islam.

3) Famous literary and peace-loving sufis in NWFP and Sindh also date from post-conversion era. Their aim was also to make orthodox Muslims into Indianized Muslims and decrease the sharp separation that existed between mullah inspired orthodoxy in Islam and Hinduism.

Conversion and sufi teachings are two different areas and must be dealt with separately. Sufis teachings were not responsible for conversion, which we believe. Sufi teaching should be followed by sub-continent Muslims, which they don`t-lately.

The influence of Vedanta of Shankara or yoga on wahdat-ul-wujood and other sufi practices is factual and not myths. However, its purpose was never to win converts from Hindu communities. A good Muslim should take pride in the humble, innovative and practical approaches to religious practices of these great sufis but not in the politics and practices of conversions.

Studebaker#17

I wish whatever you said in this post is true! I admit that I know/read nothing of this regard anywhere. If it is true, these things should be told to as many people in India as possible.

Regards

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

In my #13, please read insert the words ``but the necessary`` to read:

``Indeed, could it be that stripped of all [but the necessary]layers of material concerns, the economically deprived folks offer us an idea of what is we lack?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re. #10

I guess chowk`s messing up with the nicks again.

.... Or could RSaxena *really * have posted a reply not out to ridicule or simply tease someone???!!!

Well, if that was posted by you Saxena, may I say, even at the risk of sounding condesending, that you sound not just wiser but sweeter when not operating in, shall we say... Tease-ylh mode?

Hope to see more of this side of you!

rgds,

PM

Ms. Tewari,

You have done a wonderful job conveying the richness of your experiences at the basti, in a way that helps us realize the truly important things in life (even if only momentarily)... Indeed, could it be that stripped of all layers of material concerns, the economically deprived folks offer us an idea of what is we lack? Or maybe it is just our doing what is important, and feeling a sense of purposefulness deep down that draws us to such experiences? It`s probably both. ok.. i`m rambling now... But certainly, both ideas come through in your article.

I`d also like to commend you on several penetrating observations you make... Your portrayal of the basti folks is warm without being romantic. Given your intense feelings for those people, it would have been easy for you to be overly sentimental. You also avoided exhitibiting a beknighted attitude toward those folks.

Thank you for reminding us of the strength of the human spirit in people like Ramaswamy and Razia, even as you hit home with observations on the sarcastic, embittered and degrading Shahida & Co. Your honest narration helped the reader get a good idea of the situation-- both it`s triumphant and debasing aspects.

In ending, I`d like to wish you fulfillment in whatever it is you do. Although I might be wrong, I am assuming that your current job web-designing leaves you with a feeling that not doing what you are meant to. If I may offer some advice (born of similar experience I assure you), try and look for ways in which your current work

experiences may assist you when you return (as I`m sure you will) to help out in the trenches. I`m sure you you are already aware of the the benifits, if not necessity, of securing a measure of personal financial stability. Further, the experience in the US will probably also give you the confidence to take on the gods of restrictive custom back in India.

Warm regards,

Patrick Masih.

Attn: Paging Dost-Mittar G:

Seema,

A very warm welcome to chowk. What a lovely article.Iam forever perplexed on the Hindu/ Muslim, Christian syndrome.

It`s like an expectant mother.... anyone or everyone goes around wishing for her .... hope its a boy this time.... hope its a girl this time, as if the poor lady can pick and choose what she wants !

Similarly it is not by our own choice that we have been born a muslim, hindu, sikh, christian or a jew.So what is the commotion all about? I think it is a disgrace on humanity .

One gentleman was visiting a town. he wanted to say his afternoon prayers .He asked someone if they could direct him to a mosque.

The person asked `` yeh batein are you shia or sunni ``. then asked are you borree, khoja or memon ?

The poor gentleman never made it to the mosque , because of all the If`s and But`s .

All religions are to be respected, understood, and learnt from.

Very nice to see you share your experience with us. Hope there were more of your kind around !

Do keep writing , its lovely to read the real stuff !

lots of love,

sa:)

Re:Pervez

``But i want to do something with my life.Lot more than just rasing kids and giving them good education and seeing them through to success.Which by the way I have done. I can not accept the life the way it is.But what should and what can I do?.``

You, sir, are disillusioned. Read some of Jack Kerouac`s work. You`ll enjoy it. By the way, this type of reflection and questioning is excellent. The sooner one does it in life, the better. Getting married, raising kids, and earning money are all important, but there has to be a lot more than that - something that signifies what is unique about you as an individual.

Seema,what a heart warming story.See I am 50 years old.My children are grwon up and married.I have good life but lately feel lost.I never did ,but now i miss my youth. I have a very understanding wife.My children love me.But i want to do something with my life.Lot more than just rasing kids and giving them good education and seeing them through to success.Which by the way I have done. I can not accept the life the way it is.But what should and what can I do?.Now suddenly i feel very poor.In my book poor is not the one who has no money and means.Poor is the one who has no vision and have no new ideas,Poor is the one who want to but does not do anything to help himself.Poor is the one who can but does not help others. I have few other definations of poor.I do not know which catagory of poverty I fall in,but i am very poor.And seema you started your life very rich,you eanrd a lot for nine months,but just like me you ended up broke and poor in the end.Just like people from PM Basti.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: scout, #4

Many years ago, before I left Pakistan for America, I read ``Khuda Ki Basti`` and saw the play on PTV. What a brilliant novel, and the play did total justice to it. They left an indelible mark on me. Thank you for reminding me of those (my innocent) days scout.

Seema:

First a warm welcome and hope you continue to write here. You don’t know but you made my day...more on this shortly...:)

The quotes I have picked from your journal are simple but potent...

[...After a while it struck me that there was no basic difference between Muslims and Hindus...I had also harboured notions of Muslims being dirty, not keeping their houses clean like us. After working in PM Basti it became clear to me that Hindus and Muslims were essentially the same... Live and let live...There are good and bad people everywhere...]

Simple, elegant, potent, powerful!

Sad affection and attachment to Soni contributed to your present aloofness. Hope you come out of this soon.

Mr Ramaswamy...does he write poetry also? If he does, then he is the same person I am looking for for quite some time now...well (sheepish admission) since my last hard drive fried...no back-ups ...long story...to make it short...he wrote to me in response to something I had written...we struck a friendship and he sent me some of his poems...he must be wondering where I disappeared...if you have his address...please send it to temporal3@hotmail.com...will appreciate very much...

love,

temporal

u should read ``Khuda ki basti,`` by Shaukat Siddiqui, one of the very few urdu novels I`ve read. i think u`ll like it.

you may find an english translation of the novel called, ``God`s Own Land,`` though people have told me it doesn`t compare with reading it in Urdu/Hindi.

anyway, nice narrative.

Inequality has been around since when ever, but we can and must make it less. The peoples and the Nations of the subcontinent are rich or if not rich, then, not poor. But they are trapped in social systems that values them as poor, deprives them the freedom of initative and opportunity.

Poor we are but as long as we can foster hope, even for one day, that is a day a battle has been won against the social and spiritual evil of poverty. Thank you for the courage to do what you did and do. You have uplifted so many us, who may someday, show the courage of conviction as you have.

Ms. Tewari thank you for your article and your kindered spirit.

I feel poverty in india and pakistan is due to excessive breeding of poor people. Worst aspect is your govt. is subsidizing poor and poverty and their poor habits of breeding by providing subsidized food, kerosene, electricity.Unless india and pakistan both stop this breeding of poors both are doomed. Fortunately our govt. does not subsidize to that extent. I noted women in your article are having 5 or more children and these women are living in slums of Calcutta. You are kind spirit and Allah or Bhagwan bless you. Do you know in continent of hours are pimps of poverty. Many NGO wants poor people, its doctors dilema. No body cares about explosion of population. These poor expect free handout. Even in our country go along any major road in karachi you see crowds of professional beggers with litter. I wonder why we control animal population but not human overpopulation. A state must stop having children to these most poor people who bring children in world and put their children through cruel suffering. NGO work is usless. In our country in next 28 years we will be over 300 million almost same population as EU or USA. Its hard to get water in all cities in india Pak. But this maddness is going to kill both countries. Why people of NGO not force them to have no children before helping. We should have no more than one child per couple to survive continent. All other efforts and useless and phony. Its band aid solution. I have seen slums of India and pakistan and now I am not afraid of hell.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts