The Winds of Change

Banjaara,

Thanks.

But dont put me in the same category as hamidm. He is the lone person in his caste--imperious & snobby (after all, he`s a ``false`` muslim). But I will grudgingly admit; nobody is as witty as he.

I`m looking forward to meeting him in Hell. I`m going to get a huge kick out of slathering a generous portion of fois gras (? spelling) on a piece of idli & eating it in front of him. Ummm Ummm. But what would give me greater pleasure is watching his snobbish butt squirm in anguish at the mere thought...

Sadna #276

First things first - Goodwill

Underneath all dumping we chowkwalleh do on each other, I think there is a sensibilty that is trying to connect to one another. After all why they we on this chowk? - I agree that it is frustrating that it show itself in shadows and in little flirtations.

I am not suggesting any equivalance. I was explaining my comments as you asked to clear the confusion. The degradation and depravity, and the associating it with Indian models are that the system of Biradari is growing Pakistan (and it is also being associated with sub regional denominationalism), as are concepts of quota and reservations and as is regionalism, under the guise of provincial powers.

Only Indians can decide what ultimately to do about caste. Outsiders can only highlight what they see as unjust, and that too from their particular filters.

Bhai, tell me what we are arguing over? Of course India and Pakistan are not perfect countries. We both have some very serious and pressing issues before us: poverty, hunger, illiteracy, deprivation. In that sense we are both in the same boat. Can anyone tell me that there is no poverty or child labor in Pakistan? That family contacts and social standing (the analogue of caste) have no role to play in your country? Or that there are no religious bigots in India?

If one gets vicarious pleasure from putting the other country down, go ahead. But remember that it is just that: vicarious pleasure. It is not going to solve anything. While we can both do with being reminded of our shortcomings, it should not make us lose sight of the original problem which afflicts us both. In the words of Mr. Vajpayee, we both need to walk the ``high road`` together to solve these and better the lot of fully a fifth of humanity.

-narain

anamika#264
``Politicians are beholden only to those that vote for them - the middle class, the organized, etc. Those in the margins have to survive by their wits and the Government is no help to them.``

True and maybe thats why Veerappan-types have a constituency. Weren`t there schemes of Rs 2 per kg rice being offered.as election promises in some states? Now if someone doesnot even have Rs 2 or cannot buy it because some local dada doesnot want to sell it to him, what can he do? It also underlines why corruption is often not the key election issue of the larger electorate as it is for the middle class.

tahmed321 #260
What you do or donot do is a matter for your conscience. I donot see a single Indian on this board jokingly protest that they personally withheld food from the starving, though that has been the implication all along, nor does Indian/Hindu culture incorporate deliberate starvation of the poor as has also been the implication. I have made no similar sweeping (and frankly racist )remark in response to these clearly stated implications by Urstruly but this is not the first time you are accusing me of it.

Its best to remember everyone has equal rights to speak up here with or without approval of a few designated posters. And as you have yourself said very approriately before, we(you and I) have nothing to discuss.

hobbyt #263
`` So pervaisive and integral is casteism, that the Indian government has been trying and has succeed, for now, to have it removed from discussion in the UN conference on Racism and discrimination.``

hobbyt, we have a huge gap of information and perception here, which I doubt we can bridge. I also doubt whether there is sufficient good faith and patience to reach any conclusion. Anyway:

The simplest way to explain is that an equivalence can be found in the Pakistani government lobbying and making efforts to avoid being termed a terrorist nation or Pakistani intellectuals arguing against isolation/deliberate exclusion of radical groups whether in Pakistan or Afghanistan
.
How is it equivivalent?
You may make a case that the racism thing is a question of international justice and the terrorist thing is a case of international politics. I can do the same, for the reverse. What is it actually? A mix of both politics and justice.

So what should India and Pakistan do? Similar things. Oppose these designations because institutionalizing them will polarize the situation in internal politics and worsen it. So donot internalize the politics. But internalize the justice part of it. How?

In India, there has been conserable effort and progress in getting rid of caste discrimination on several levels, whether Pakistanis accept it or not. There is plenty of reading material on this, if you are not selective.
So how can the situation get polarized and worsened? Well, if you call caste discrimination at a social level, racism, then for starters, the institutionalized affirmative action for the depressed castes and tribes such as reserved Parliament seats, Assembly seats, government jobs and promotions, reserved seats in educational institutions, all these will logically be termed reverse discrimination and reverse racism. In Tamil Nadu for instance, this reservation is upto 50% in government jobs and education of I am right. btw, I know a few cases where `upper` caste members got themselves a `lower` caste certificate because there was no other wayto get a job. Would that be a good solution to casteism to get rid of affirmative action?

And all benefits of deliberate effort to be inclusive in politics and policy making so far will get thrown away in mutual recrimination. For eg, without your knowing my `caste status` or how relevant or irrelevant it was in my life, I am having to make a case for the success/failure of India`s policies to get rid of caste-based discrimination to you. And the only way I can do it is remember my own caste, who else is what caste whether chowkwallah or Indian Minister/scientist and point it out to you as an example of success of such policies(though it may awaken old wounds of my own).
It defeats the purpose, thoroughly if no one is allowed to forget what caste is the President of India o rthe Chief Minister of UP, and a breach of faith with all the compromises and adjustments Indians have so far made with each other. Think of this happening at a macro level, it would be disaster.

BUT, as I said there is a internalization to be done with the justice part of this issue because total social justice is still far away. Its unacceptable when people are discriminated against even 50 years after Independence, which many are. Moreoever, policy-implementers(bureacrats) are too comfortable, quotas often go unfilled due to lack of candidates, local leaders of communities in many places exercise caste-based coercion as a means of control and are shielded by politicians playing the same game at another level, etc. We need to put a fire under all these and speed up social reform, using the threat from internationalization of the issue as leverage.

The equivalence with Pakistan : well the arguments against declaring Pakistan as terrorist nation are very similar. An international designation of `terrorist` would further polarize the gap between religious conservatives and moderates at home, giving conservatives an extra leverage through additional grievance and weakening the moderates by associating them with an unwarranted label and forcing them into isolation.

So an international designation will not solve any internal problems in Pakistan, so should be opposed. But the threat can well be internalized in Pakistan`s favor and used to get the conservatives(as jihadis and Islamists are termed) under control by galvanizing everyone concerned into reaching a better and more just compromise in national interest than exists now.

More on English as official language in India:

http://landow.stg.brown.edu/post/india/hohenthal/5.2.html

Excerpts:

``English is not classified as one of the 15 national languages of India (NEB:286). Although Hindi is the Official Language of the Union; provision was made in the Constitution that English would be used in official work until 1965, after which Hindi would replace it. Because of the opposition of the Dravidian south against Hindi, the Indians decided to further extend the role of English as an additional language with Hindi to be used for purposes of the Union and in Parliament. English is now recognized as an associate official language, with Hindi the official language. It is recognized as the official language in four states (Manipur, Meghalaya, Nagaland, Tripura) and in eight Union territories.``

AAmir #266:

That`s right Aamir, now that you have been shown up on one topic, scuttle away to another. Why don`t YOU have the b@lls to admit your ignorance of and prejudices regarding Indian languages?

sadna #259 but madam how can I ignore it if you say that Pakistanis send orphans to die and since I am Pakistani? Surely I cannot allow myself to keep sending all those poor orphans to die! Now if only I could get my memory back so I can recall how I sent those orphans to die that you are talking about!

Urstruly # all

Salaamat Raho.

One post generates hundred responses.

Hinduon Ki Dukhti Rug Tumhare Haath Mein aur Un Ki izzat Bhi.

Thori Aabyari Aamir Ki Bhi ho to Chowk Ke Rukhwale Pagal Ho Jayen.

Oops Yeh Kia Kah Diya.

TAhmed321 #240

Individual rights I have not denied. It should be the back bone of society.

The question is what arrangement people want to live. Or consensus. It does not deny individual rights.

To give example from the bastion of democracy United States.

The states have their rights as well as center.

Inspite of all assimilation the election of senate are dependent upon 2 members from each state regardless of population. And president is elected by electoral college. The interesting situation happened this year when popular vote is won by Gore and electoral college is won by Bush.

Is this exercise negating the rights of majority? Is this exercise dependent upon some arrangement which is satisfying the needs of small states who will have no voice if popular vote was criteria?.

In an arrangement it is necessary to come to a consensus acceptable to the majority. Particularly in a country like us where people are divided on the basis of religion, ethnicity etc.

Important thing is what arrangement is acceptable to majority of population? Or what arrangement the elected representatives come to a consensus.

The main achievement of Z.A. Bhutto was that he made a consensus by every member of parliament on such an important document as constitution. Although that visionary could have done it in other ways. This type of document we need where there is not only rights, but in view of the previous experience they are safeguarded.

We will never be able to see in future, if we are unable to come to a consensus on the form of Government. That is the primary step to be taken.

Dost-mittar.

I am amazed at the stubbornness of your conscious.

What incidences can awaken it is difficult for a person of caliber and nationality of Urstruly to determine.

By the posts of Indian it looks like that this hypothetical and non material thing they utterly disbelief.

Conscious? What conscious? What is conscious? Is it Jehadi? Is it Islamic? Is it Pakistani? Is it coming out of pen of Urstruly?

It must be neceesarily wrong or at least any thing coming out of pen of Pakistani and Muslim cannot awaken it for the simple reason. They should not succed in their purpose.:-).

Even if it awakes by any such loathsome creatures pretend it is asleep.:-)

Harimau #250

It is Ok for me as long as it is not a BADBUDAR HINDU.

You smell even through the computer.

The best and the brightest - The cream of the Crop

The are at it again, they can not seem to get out their version of entertainment - so, live it up!

Money man/god/ Prick, Penis God , Terrorist!

A bunch of closet cases.

A pox on both your houses! You never fail to live to the worst in us.

Re: Pakistan`s priorities

Here is the article from TOI. Note that Musharaff says he wants to buty the Sukhoi aircrafts. Here is the funny part. He says he has the money. Ya, right. May be drug money slashed in somewhere. How come a country which has gone around the world with a begging bowl has the money to buy aircrafts now? Where are Pakistan`s priorities? Hello, Urstruely, are you reading this post.

``Musharraf wants Russia in Kashmir talks

MOSCOW: Weeks ahead of the Indo-Pak summit, Pakistan`s military ruler Gen Pervez Musharraf has sought Russia`s mediation in dialogue with India on Kashmir.

At the same time, he expressed displeasure over Moscow`s ``one-sided backing`` of India.

In an interview to leading Russian daily Izvestia, published on Thursday, Musharraf said that Islamabad, which has traditionally sought US mediation on the Kashmir issue, would welcome Moscow`s mediation in dialogue with India.

Regretting Moscow`s refusal to sell modern weapons to Islamabad, Musharraf said, ``We are very much interested in Sukhoi-30 fighter planes. We have money and would like to buy them.``

``Unfortunately, we do not know what is required for a change in Russia`s stand of one-sided backing of India and develop relations with the people of Pakistan also,`` he said.

He added that Islamabad was keen to improve its relations with Moscow and develop close trade and defence ties.

Asked if Pakistan would carry out further nuclear tests and enhance its nuclear capabilities, Musharraf said that Islamabad would continue its nuclear programme to keep pace with India.

``In the first place it depends on India`s stand... India`s published doctrine shows that it has no desire to curb its nuclear ambitions. Therefore, we also have to take care of our own security,`` he said, adding ``But I would also be happy if the number of nuclear warheads in South Asia is substantially reduced.``

To another question, he said, he had no proof of terrorist mastermind Osama Bin Laden`s involvement in all the acts attributed to him.``

sridhar

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