The Winds of Change

PM

on post 377 - Do you actually take breaths while reading? What about ``If`` and ``propaganda`` do you not understand? - Is Chowk such a place?

On 378

A Seperate Pakistani identity - You and many others may not agree that such an identity exists or should exist. But would you deny those who think it does? Is a seperate identity just for Indians? or do Pakistanis not even have the right to construct their view of themselves, even?

So many people really do forget that these times and these challenges will pass. Identifing all the social, economic and political ills of Pakistan is a unending, and serious vocation. It should be exercised with responsiblity and sensibility.

You say you are ``objective``, but it seems from those whom you have mentioned and identity with, that perhaps you may be more subjective. Pakistan has problems, I don`t know how we can fix them by ridiculing them and those who have the courage to step forward to attempt fixing it.

If I remember, You are a Pakistani Christian? If you do have some religious training, you will recall ``spoke the word and the word became flesh``. I`m suggesting that we not engage in maximalist positions because none of us has clean hands. the arguments will then degenerate to whose hands are cleaner or bloodier.

We should all have the courage to practice what we preach.

``Brothers in Arms`` Dire Straights

``Secret Heart`` R. Sexsmith

hobbyty #376 Incidentally, on your point about trying to fund some constructive activity in Pakistan: This is of course something every expat Pakistani should be doing - Two possibilities are (a) SOS, they run orphanages in Pakistan, and do a fine job last time I checked one of those near Rawalpindi, and (b) MMBMT, which helps communities start girls` schools in remote areas of Pakistan - the latter will actually identify the school being funded by you and you can visit the school when in Pakistan to see your $ times 64 at work. I dont think chowk is the right forum to start such exercises, nor is it necessary. Chowk is a good forum for building understanding and discussing issues, but I dont think one can do much more here. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I think.

re. hobbyty #359

``PM says that for ever Jay, Harimanu, Sadna, etc, there is a counterpart. I disagree with him. Pakistanis like yourself or YLH, Sarwari, for the most part concern themselves with issues important to Pakistanis.``

Yes, hobyty, I agree, with one caveat... `Implicitly Run down India` can be viewed as an `issue important to Pakistan. At least with ylh and sarwari can plea provocation and youthful indescretion when they go about crying themselves hoarse about our separate identity. With UrstrulyDemented, however, it as about putting those ``horrible freaks`` from across the border`` (which, in case you`re thinking the taliban, he clarifies as ``evil Hindoos`` into their place) -- all his sweet Jekyllian apologies nothwithstanding.

``Then ofcourse, the contrarians such as Hamidm and feroze khan,etc, also make valid points, though, some of their posts lack balance and reflect little insight.``

Hahaha. That`s really a laugh now... If you cannot tell that, at least to an objective ov=bserver, Hamidm, ferozk and SameerJb`s posts do more damage to Paksitan`s `cause` than Sadna`s or Harimau (who lambaste`s Indians almost as much), then sir, I`m afraid you belong to the same category of play-it-by-name folks as our dear Farangi_Kush.

``The Indian point of view? I would have thought these would be varied but I do not find it so. And if they are, there are too few (varied). I hope Chowk will not become a venue for cyber war.``

Leaving aside the question of the definition and (de)merits of `cyberwar` -- not to mention the question of whether we already are in the middle of one-- let me just say that it would seem that your asssertion that [the Indian views] lack variety is terribly short on reality.

And it is all the more strange that you should make this contention in the same post that you mention the more agreeable viewpoints of ``Shammi, cheryam, shankar, eklavya`` etc.

``[PM has] choice words for [TAhmed] as well - and yet I tell, that he has shown courage and leadership. He stuck his neck out for every one on Chowk, in defensive of civility.``

Civilty is easy if we are not willing to face the beasts and trash out some troubling issues that force us to see the true nature of the beast. It is all the more easy to do so when one has not to deal with the Beast on a day to day basis, enjoying the opprtunity and liberty of a life lived in the West.

``Make love Not war,`` we say

It`s easy to recite

But it don`t mean a thing

Unless we`re gonna fight

But not with guns and knives...

----Madonna- `Love Makes the World Go `Round`

rgds,

PM

TAhmed #371 to Sadna

``You were accused of bigotry, not espionage. Show me one line from anyone on this board on which you base your post.``

Looked back only 30 posts or so..

(explicit): Urstruly #345:``I see that you are frustrated. I would be frustrated too if my employer had told me to straighten up my act or take a hike.``

(guarded): Hobbyty #361: ``If it is a venue for the desemenation of propaganda, then, would Urstruely not be correct in viewing with suspiscion the authorship of posts and articles on these boards?``

Feigned impartiality or discomfort with tough questions seems to inimical to comprehension.

rgds,

Sadna

It sorry fou you taking such a stand. Our positions are closers than you realize, we differ in our approaches.

Aicha 372

Aicha, I take your point and agree that I have been humourless and have laboured the point. I have taken a number and am in line for a colonic.

tahmed321 #374
You are right, I have no explanation for you, for whose judgement and cognitive skills I have no longer any respect nor for those coward Pakistanis on chowk who throw around epithets and allegations but slink away like jackals when challenged by me.

Which is it guys and gals, am I a spy or not? I donot expect even a single one who has implied so in wholly unconnected discussions has the integrity to show up here and admit they implied or stated their belief that I am a spy. They are happy to have you dish out crap here `the other way`. Thats why I have no respect nor interest in interacting either with them or with you.

You may have the last word, I`ve said all I want to.

sadna #373 you write ``If you think I owe you an explanation...``

I did not say you owed me an explanation. I said you did not have one.

OK: I know all this must be very annoying to you, but you really need to reflect a bit on your posts. Sorry in any case for offending you throughout this board for whatever reason, so please cheer up and smile and enjoy the day.

tahmed321 #371
If you think I owe you an explanation of where and by whom I get termed as a spy, you are mistaken. Those who do are on their own. In addition, if you think I owe you something because you call me a bigot, you are even more mistaken.

Further, if I am silent in response to future personal remarks, kindly donot mistake it for agreement.

hobbyty - And again the humour was lost!! I find disclaimers/clarifications tiresome and overkill but feel needed here. Overall meant why belabor the entire issue, futile - you have your viewpt pls allow the other person to have theirs no matter how offensive it may seem to you. Competition?? hardly! on the contrary meant - if you give up on trying ie throw in the towel - who

will be left to carry on the good fight. Furthermore for the totally impaired re the killing fields - each persons individual views on this site are just that - words, ideas at best - and cannot be compared to battles taht are being waged in reality. So dont see the pt for your agitation about exchange of ideas. Any furhter clarifications?? Oh and re ``macabre horrow shows`` - totally uncalled for - some people come here to

enjoy diverse view points, comment and move on. Pls drop the histrionics if you dont want a spectator show - otherwise no pt crying foul!! Frankly, in your drive to do the

right thing you seem to have lost your ability to take things in the right perspective!! If you still dont get my point - then suffice it to say my post was w/o any malice and goodluck to you too!

aicha

sadna #369 ``its impossible to have any meaningful interaction with a person such as myself who is continuously under suspicion of being a spy in the pay of the Indian government ``

You were accused of bigotry, not espionage. Show me one line from anyone on this board on which you base your post. It is always better to admit your mistake, even offer regrets for it, and to move on rather than to keep trying to prove yourself right (by changing the story, as you are now doing). Otherwise you become a smaller person then your mistakes.

PS Hope you enjoy getting moralized (as per above) as much as you enjoy moralizing. :-)

Eklavya - Dost-Mittar

I came to realize that I was being unfair in asking all the others to focus on my concerns : The best way I can get more people to ``feel`` and think in terms that will change the framework between us is to do it myself. As is obvious from so many, I will not be a lonely voice.

But what can we in cyber space really do?, short of talk it to death - Talk is great beginning - but we can can become aware of so many courageous persons doing outstanding work - (Cerebral palsy -Both in Pakistan and in India - small, under funded institutions are working for the understanding of parents and their children -The numbers effected are significant, the understanding of it, in general, in our societies, so shallow! - worse still, the superstitions and social misunderstanding and ignorance ) we can invite such persons and organizations to participate, we can even help them)

Two consistent problems in both Pakistan and India: Poor water sanitation and frequequent lack of electric power (not because there isn`t enough power, but because of shabby maintenance of power lines) - While Solar power is slowly becoming economical - mini fuel cells, the size of air conditioner are become practical - they produce enough power to light 4 homes (please look to the work of Ballard Engineering at www.Ballard.com) Imagine if such a technology could be indigenized, that is, made at a price we could afford

Large water sanitation works are part of the answer - however; a sampling will make it clear that specific bacteria are at work, causing the majority of the problem (especially for children) Home, or end use filters are an answer - some use a technology which includes ionization and filteration enabling the vast majority of the bacteria to be elimenated. The filer is made of plastic - the filteration unit itself is a product of injection moulding.

Ok - OK - so we all know that we have problems and also solutions, but who is going to build them? As Homer Simpson says ``Let someone else to it!`` - These solutions do not require millions of dollars - and the dollars will always follow if a pilot can be shown to be both highly desirable and economical (I`m not into free - no money in it) We can do this and more, but we need help in learning what`s out there and we need help to understand that we can do this!

Let`s say that we will still have our prejudices, ok I say - at least we will have given a measure of meaning, that not only all persons can relate with but is also a source of satisfaction for our so called religious faiths (walking the talk?). I know talk is cheap and I talk a lot, but you will see, this will come to happen. (so that when we curse ane another, we do so with a clear conscience, knowing those we curse, enjoy nutritious food and clean water in their belly. No reason to be condemned to study by the light of the public lamp post - or suffer the oppressive heat)

hobbyt #361

`` It is my intention to change the framework under which Pakistanis and Indians have been interacting on Chowk and these boards. Dissenting views,or any kind of views are ofcourse welcome on Chowk, and I will propose that Chowk is a meeting place, first and foremost, of INDIVIDUALS, not of persons resresenting governments or group propaganda.If it is a venue for the desemenation of propaganda, then, would Urstruely not be correct in viewing with suspiscion the authorship of posts and articles on these boards?``


And the little pithy message to myself upbraiding me for my

``So one sided (anti Islam - Anti Pakistan) a worldview made up of newspaper articles can be enhanced by an open and fair mind.``


hobbyt, dragging that pulpit behind you must be heavy work. Do you hire a pulpit-caddy?

But seriously, I like your intentions but leave me out of the treats you intend to distribute for future good behaviour and Pakistani-approved dissension from Indian posters.

The reason is in my opinion, its impossible to have any meaningful interaction with a person such as myself who is continuously under suspicion of being a spy in the pay of the Indian government spreading anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistani propaganda.

Because you and other concerned Pakistani chowkwallahs can never know for sure whether I am a spy or not, even my family members cannot, witness the recent American whats-his-name who got caught for spying for Russia.

So let us mutually agree to end this loathsome association and have nothing more to do with each other. I heartfeltedly wish you luck with other Indians though.

As for the corruption of pristine minds and tender emotions due to my regrettable and continued presence on chowk, well I can only recommend what I have been urging alert Pakistanis who have been naming me a spy for the last the 1 1/2 years : get in touch with chowk staff.

Frankly, I think chowk staff has been sleeping on its job and has been very remiss toward protecting its patriotic readers interests, they have not taken action even after so many months asn so many protests. You may be luckier in getting through, though you are about the 50th to take such a courageous stand. Let me know if I can help you get through to them.

And as for me, I plan to get back to head office with a new idea which I credit to yourself and ylh. Apparently we donot need to spend too much on fencing the border with expensive materials.

All we need is `raddi`(old) newspapers with simple news items from places around the world like Turkey and Iran, no need for biased motivated analysis pieces either, just the news items with accompanying quotes from real people from these countries will do admirably

Thats shouldnot be at all difficult, all we need to do is line the border with these news items facing outwards towards Pakistanis, and just the sight of these news items will throw the brave warriors on the other side into a frenzy of confusion at the virulence of anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan sentiments in the news items though they are from another corner of the world. How much simpler can things get??

Now if there is no promotion and bonus for me in this brilliant discovery, I donot know what else is. Excuse me while I go file my report.

Chowkwalleh Unite! - A spectre is haunting the subcontinentent - the spectre of normal relation between Pakistan and India:

What are ``common interests`` between Pakistan and India?

re: hobbyty # 361

Your post gave me great hope and caused me much despair. I will point out just two reasons for despair.

1. There is a property of human mind, hobbyty, that makes the viciousness and hatred of those on `our` side always appear to us as `cute`, `charming immaturity`, `very funny`, or even `rational` to us; while exactly similar sentiments when expressed by those on the `enemy` side are taken as clear manifestations of pure evil. It requires a great strength of character, continuing internal struggle, and clarity of thought to be able to overcome this strong bias. But unless we do that, all talk of civility and constructive engagement is futile.

2. Both Indians and Pakistanis need to build proud identitities. If Indians could only assert their glory by calling Pakistanis (not Muslims since Pakistan is not Islam) an evil bunch of bullies who always defrauded, manipulated, and cheated gentle, decent, and honorable Indians, Pakistanis could not be expected to care much for such Indian glory. The same is true for Indians. Again, so long as we even remotely justify our existence on the basis of the other`s `evil nature,` it is silly to think that peaceful discourse can prevail.

My solution is different. Let us join hands. Let us build bridges. But let us do so not by cursing each other but by recognizing that God Almighty placed beauty in every land and among every people. Let us honor each other. Peace and civility will follow.

There are no short cuts.

hobbyty,

Sir, I appreciate the fact that you are trying ( or want) to bring Indians & Pakistanis together at a cybersite where they can share ideas, similiarities & differences in a civilised manner. Believe it or not, Chowk was a fairly civilised place a couple of years ago. Even Jay (who was here long before me) was civilised & non bigotted.

Unfortunately, as it so often happens with human nature, a few bigots on each side make hurtful criticisms. This invariably causes a chain reaction & quickly disintegrates into a mudslinging match. This has happened again & again. When posters complain about mudslinging, their complaints are usually in the form of criticisms that ``we are more civilised & open minded & the guys from the other side of the fence are not``. May I suggest that you included, made a similar complaint; in that vein.

When you say Pakistanis have suffered decades of oppression & still evolves & survives against incredible odds, hindus counter--``dont feel so sorry (or proud) of yourself & justify your behavior; look how we hindus have survived after being oppressed for centuries by waves upon waves of foreign invaders``. The whole history of the subcontinent is littered by prejudice---what`s worse, history itself is distorted by historians---based on their own biasis.

As far as I`m concerned, only GOD knows who cast the first stone. The hell with our history. Gandhi & Jinnah are irrelevant to me. I was born after independance & Pakistan is ,& always will be, an independant foreign country to me. My experience of Indians of my generation is that they share the same opinion. Now that I live in the US, not only will I meet Pakistanis in person, but also work with them & some may be my neighbors. When we meet as individuals, on a 1 on 1 basis, we take great pains not to bring religion or nationality between us. Thats why we generally get along in a ``neutral`` territory.

I think God is totally disillusioned by humans because we have politicised religion. When we corrupt something as sacred as religion by politicising it, I feel God turns His back upon all of us mudslingers--no matter how ardently we say ``our way of praying to God is better than your way``.

So, for the better or worse, mudslinging has become a way of life in cyberspace, in Chowk in particular. No amount of appeals are going to change basic human nature. Believe me, its been tried. If you break away to a new site, a paste a sign ``Indians not allowed``, you will get gatecrashers. The same is true for an Indian site. The beauty of the internet is that nobody can stop the exchange of ideas. It also then means that we have to live with the bigots among us. Mudfights will be a part of cyberlife.

If I cant beat it, I`ll join it. I have more fun slinging mud on hindu bigots. Yes, I like to take pot shots at guys like URstruly; but usually in a sarcastic or witty way. Obviously, everybody on Chowk cant appreciate my incredible sense of humor:), so dont like my mudslinging.

hobbyty

In the second paragraph of my last post please insert the word ``head`` where it is applicable. Without ``head`` the sentence becomes very liberal:)