The Winds of Change

#337 Dear hobbyty - whaat no stamina?? and these arent even the real killing fields!! : ) : )

#340 last 2 paras - Shankar - darn where is the kleenex whenyou need it sniff sniff : ) great entertainment : )

aicha

Sadna

[As I said I am only discussing on a discussion board, not issuing threats, not making personal attacks or even expressing my personal opinion of posters.]

But your posts on almost every board is telling a very different story. If there is nothing personal then why are you snapping back at almost everybody, especially those who want to have a rational discussion with you like hobbyty or myself:)

I see that you are frustrated. I would be frustrated too if my employer had told me to straighten up my act or take a hike. Do you guys have a union or something. Does jay have the same problem?

I suggest that you make it personal. Show them the stuff you are made of. Give the Pakis the hell they deserve. But I suggest that you do it artistically like before. Now you are head to head with wrong people. Tahmad has changed since you went on vacation. He is now a banya lover. Use him against us. Well whom am I kidding, you are a pro already.

MaheshG
What you donot understand is that jihad against Indians is taken to be a morally superior position. If you challenge its morally superior basis you can only be a bigot or anti-Muslim Hindu or an Indian trying to look down on Pakistanis.

As I said I am only discussing on a discussion board, not issuing threats, not making personal attacks or even expressing my personal opinion of posters. Thats unacceptable bigotry, while going after Hindus with a gun as a religious duty is not bigotry or stereotyping which Pakistanis need to also take a stand against, in their own interest.

Well, if these lady ex-SPOs both Hindu or Muslim can live and die by militant bullets for merely Rs 1500 per month so that they donot starve, I`m not going to disrespect them by shutting up so that some comfortable Pakistanis can feel more comfortable about themselves.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20010502/nat35.htm

Anyway, for a good summary what many prominent Indians and Pakistanis think about upcoming talks and jihad you can see:

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/CF05Df02.html
Vajpayee`s masterstroke or disaster for India?
By Sultan Shahin

Check out the statements of Hamid Gul, mentioned elsewhere as perhaps a mentor of Gen. Musharraf.

hobbyt #337

``I must tell you that they are simply not interested in friendships or even to understand us.``

Good for you.

hobbyt #337 I fully support the spirit of what you are saying. Indeed chowk could be a wonderful forum for the Indian and Pakistani middle class to develop a better appreciation of one another`s cultures. And posts here can easily degenerate into ``ham achhay, tum burray`` tripe. However, there are enough Indian and Pakistani posters on chowk who indeed have something more to contribute than those monotonous accusations and counteraccusations.

So, I dont think we should turn our backs to the Indian contributors, although we can do what little each of us can to encourage a more constructive and thoughtful dialogue on chowk.

On the other question of organizing some kind of research activity, again I greatly appreciate the spirit of what you say. Let us think a bit more about it, and then maybe we can discuss it further on this board.

Tahmed, if the Pakistani team wins the world cup and people say ``Pakistanis have won the world cup`` will you object to it? Yes or No?

Isn`t it an unstated agreement among most of the Pakistanis to sponsor Jehad against India? Don`t we have a right to point it out to you when it is hurting us? Please tell me how poverty and disease in India is hurting Pakistan.

As to insulting your country. I am sure Sadna is not doing that just to offend your sensibilities. Is it so wrong to point out what kind of harm your countrymen are doing to us?

hobbyty,

post#337

The one thing I find common in mudslingers (me included) is the notion, ``they cast the first stone (or mudball); so we are only doing it in `self defense```. To quote my friend URstruly, ``give respect to get respect``.

Unfortunately, it all depends on which side of the border one was born in. If you ask most hindus on Chowk, they will say that all that Pakistanis are good for is insulting hinduism & mocking Indian democracy & secularism. Pakistanis accuse hindus of being genocidal maniacs in Kashmir & that not a single one of the 70000 dead in that blighted state is at the hands of muslims.

The fact that our minds have this uncanny knack of filtering out the offensive remarks of our own side & remembering the insults from the other side is proof of our own prejudices. Your post #337 betrays that about you too. I guess we are all human after all.

Its pointless to figure out ``who drew first blood``. That view will never be agreed upon by either side. God has cursed Indians & Pakistanis for their mutual hatred for politicising religion. In the same vein, He has cursed muslims & jews to the extent that the Holiest of holiest land Israel/Palestine will never enjoy the blessings of peace.

All of us came to Chowk with the best of intentions. We were curious about the other side. Internet has given us an unprecedented opportunity to interact & share our views like never before. The fact that the 2 sides have hated each other because of the tragic events that occured during partition is a given. So when hindu/muslim, India/Pakistan fight on Chowk, we simply replay those hateful prejudices--so whats new?

On the other hand , dont get discouraged; stick around. I`ll tell you my own perspective. I had the same prejudices when I came to Chowk. Then I came across Pakistanis like Tahmed, Bilalji, Feroz, Sameer, temporal & so many many others. It has made me a better person. This may sound naieve--I`ve come to realise that Pakistanis arent the ogres I thought they were. They yearn for peace ,friendship & understanding between our 2 countries as much as we do. Bigotry will always exist. There is no getting around that. Its a human failing. But if we get past that, one can also see beauty & similar values on the other side.

Having said that, why do I participate in juvenile mudslinging?! My only ``excuse`` is that its entertaining:) It helps get rid of anger & frustration:) Heck, you will agree its a lot healthier than throwing nuclear missiles at each other.

Peace

hobbyty:

I understand what you say. But I think both Indians and Pakistanis are guilty of the superiority complex and gloat over the other`s failings... still, Chowk is a good place to learn and interact. I myself have learnt a lot about Pak, Islam and even India through Chowk - and I thought I was well-informed before coming here.

I think Pakis on Chowk are over-sensitive, not least of whom is Mr ylh. He seems to have the crying need to assert his Pakistani identity and love for Jinnah on almost every post. I have rarely seen an Indian poster having to assert his/her Indian identity.

I would love to see more articles on India and other South Asian countries too, not just Pakistan.

Hobbyty

I am devastated. First I had some hope that with your Neo-Deen-e-Ilahi philosophy and the way you reason, you could bring some change into the attitude of these horrible freaks across the border but tell you the truth I am glad that you have finally seen the things the way most of the people see. Sooner is the better that you understand that Pak & India are in a state of cold war for the past 55 years. The media and the internet is the new war front. Hindus have some objectives in their minds (which are quite obvious) and they are investing heavily to influence the public opinion (including ours). I dont think it should be a cause for alarm for any Pakistani because the people that they have hired for chowk are as pathetic as one may get. Beside they forget that we not only lived with them for over 1000 years, we ruled them. We know them inside out more than they do.

However, there is a cause for concern and we should be very vigilant and keep on eye on the sheep in wolves skins- I am talking about people like SameerJB, Solitude, FerozK etc. They are the danger from with in. One should be very careful while interpretting their rhetoric and must understand the undertones. How about this new project. Try to explore these three characters and few others I will point out later, and see what you find.

Happy hunting.

Tahmed321 #336

Why bother?

There are too many Indians on these board who seek to push their ``holier than thou`` attitudes. When I first heard about ``Chowk`` and that it could afford me opportunity to exchange and learn, even make friends from the other side of the border, I was extremely optimistic. I must tell you that they are simply not interested in friendships or even to understand us. They just want to tell us that they are superior (in some way) and do not at all have an inferiority complex. And maybe they are. So to all Indians, we, Pakistanis certify you as better than us in every way - will please leave us alone, now and go play else where!

Why should Pakistanis waste time on immature persons? These Indians cannot get past Islam, Kashmir and the horrid evil of the two nation theory.

Why can`t Pakistanis on these boards engage in business networking, or getting together for some philanthropic or charitable works?

I am on record here that I find a great need for a research and analysis institute and that i will contribute funds towards it`s materialization. Perhaps there are others who also see the need and can contribute?

urstruly and sadna: I am speechless with awe before the majesty of your posts #333 and #335. I enjoyed the flattering definition of a bigot, incidentally, urstruly: kind of like a roach defining itself as the ``Chief Commanding Officer of the City Sewage System`` or perhaps as ``Scourge of the Kitchen Table and Yes, of the Human Race As Well``.

Not that I consider your or Sadna or anyone else on chowk to be really that low though. But all I keep trying to get thru to you two (and a couple of other folks) who think the internet is there to exchange insults is that you can do better than that. My thick Paki skull refuses to accept that you two are really as superficial and mean-spririted as you do your best to show on chowk.

tahmed321 #332
Firstly who cares what you think I post? I donot.

``And rest assured you have as much of suffering, poverty, misdeeds and so forth in India as in Pakistan, although reading your posts one would think you are from heaven and Pakistanis are from hell.``

Your disgust cannot exceed mine. Its your good luck that I am only on your precious discussion board and have the choice of ignoring me(as I have repeatedly asked you to do).

Thank yourself lucky that myself and other Indians have not picked up a gun and crossed the borders to kill your countrymen like Pakistanis do. If Pakistanis are so worried about heaven and hell let them stay home and solve their own problems instead of carrying out holy wars in others territory. If they poke their noses into other people`s business, they should not expect others to keep quiet. Its as simple as that.

Dear Farangi_Kush

I subscribe to the hamidm`s guru george carlin`s definition of a bigot (racist). According to him ``a bigot (racist) is one who is winning an argument from a liberal``

tahmad# 321

You are barking the wrong tree. She is the best tongue twister around and it didnt get through your thick Pakistani skull. She is ready to accept you as not a bigot. Forget about this `you did this` and `me did this` stuff. Nodd your head up and down to whatever they say and they will make you ``respected by all``,``enlightened``, ``humanist`` like the other akali dal musalmaan SameerJB or that lotta ferozk.

sadna #319 You write: On ``collective responsibility`` you write ``Citizens of a country are responsible for the acts/misdeeds/suffering/indigent circumstances of all other citizens in their country.``

Follow your own advice then, and take responsibility for the ills in Indian society, rather than pointing fingers at Pakistanis all the time. You must have written a hundred posts on chowk over the past year, and not once have I seen you worrying about ``acts/misdeeds/suffering/indigent circumstances`` in India. And rest assured you have as much of suffering, poverty, misdeeds and so forth in India as in Pakistan, although reading your posts one would think you are from heaven and Pakistanis are from hell. Spare me your high and mighty moralizing.

Shanker #323 Thanks brother. ;-)