The Winds of Change

MaheshG #324 If it was a question of me taking things personally - personal insults from strangers on the internet are easily handled (they can be simply ignored).

You write: ``When she refers to Pakistanis she means Pakistan. Is it so hard to understand?`` Yes it is. When one refers to Pakistanis one refers to Pakistanis, not Pakistan, and Pakistanis are a group of people. In her post Sadna makes this clear too, and provides an explanation of why she thinks all Pakistanis have a ``collective responsibility`` for the war in Kashmir (I will respond to her separately next). And even if she had referred to Pakistan as a country as you say, this too is offensive to all those who love Pakistan. Like Indians or any other people, we Pakistanis are entitled to love our country and our people. I consider it offensive to insult anyones religion or country or ethnic group, and I am not alone in this: this is in fact the dictionary definition of bigot. There can be no excuse for such behavior, and by condoning it one accepts the unacceptable.

Had Sadna been careful to refer to policies of the Pakistan government, I would accept that as an opinion. Had she presented a balanced and insightful view of the situation, I would respect that as an analysis. That has not been the case and all she presents are one-sided posts that are directed towards maligning Pakistan and Pakistanis.

I hope you now find it easier to understand why I found her posts offensive and bigotted.

urstruly:

``Voh pehlay ishque kee ra`naaiaN array tobaa

uthha jo durd to dil nay kaha ``mubarak ho``.``

What do you call someone who hates those NOT subscribing to the cult of `western democracy`,secularism,humanism etc. etc----yep you are right:advanced,modern freethinker etc etc but never a bigot.

This new word/kid on the block has a lineage.

First their was PIOUS versus SINNER

Then there were HONEST versus CHEAT

Then there was SIMPLE versus SMART

Then STUPID versus CLEVER

Then PRACTISING versus CAREFREE

Then OBSCURANTIST versus RATIONAL

Then SPIRITUAL versus SCIENTIFIC

Then PRUDE versus SEXY

.

.

.

And finally BIGOT versus SECULARIST.

If a secularist uses this word then it is an honour for any muslim anywhere.In the end they all come around.Around the age of 40 most come around.The ones with adolescent brains are still wrestling with the little math problem they could not finish in grade 8.Their splashing,threshing & thrashing abouts provide a good spectacle at the intellectual & literary forums.Some of them do end up embracing fire even before the Appointed Day.

Even their ``Scientific`` minds cannot put the statistical data/odds together that why MAJORITY of the ``RATIONALIST/SCIENTISTS`` end up becoming more fundamentalist/bigoted in their respective beliefs.

wassalaam

MaheshG
Thanks for your posts. I`ll humbly suggest its not worth your effort.

Sincerely

Pervert Massih

I am lucky to have such a passionate readership.

shankar 323

This is the saeson when certificates of being bigot are falling like leaves in the fall. People even call me a bigot. Can you imagine?

:)

Ba Ba F_K,

Have you any SHAME?....

Yes sir, yes sir, 3 lotas with my name...

One for my Taleban..

One for my Pakistan...

And one for that stinking West; whose MONEY I covet....

Tahmed, not at all.

I don`t know why you are taking it personally. Did she say that you specifically send orphans to fight Jehad. When she refers to Pakistanis she means Pakistan. Is it so hard to understand?

Has she said Islam condones sending orphans to fight Jehad? Did she say anything against Islam? Why are you getting so pent up about this?

If TAhmed is identified as a bigot; I`m REALLY confused about what that word means:)

Farangi Kush #

Every person is a product of his/ her society and training.

I was a big crusader against sham secularism and sham democracy in India.

Although I do not agree that British should return the sub-continent to Muslims as they have taken it from Muslims.

British policy was in their own interest for keeping Muslims backward and helping Hindus to rise.

But apart from Sir Syed and his ilk, most Muslims did not realize the dangers. But you know most Ulema said that Sir Syed has become ``CRISTAN`` and ironically it was Sir Syeds movement which laid the foundation of Pakistan.

The only way of improving Muslims is to improve the condition of Muslims. If we fail in educating our people it will be disastrous.

In this regard I have much hope in Madressah system which has the POTENTIAL of producing great personalities. But if they continue to produce people killing each other there is no hope.

I am also not denying that our intelligentia is upto par. But considering the stiffling atmosphere, they are going to react. In fact apart from official recognition of few official intellectuals we have failed to respect our intellectuals. And the pseudo-intellectuals which we recognize churn Islam out of every orfice of their body.

I don`t see any solution except the slow death. You will be aware of the fate of Spain where there is no Muslim now and Baghdad whose river was red with blood.

The first instinct of human is survival and then comes the religion and you should be aware of teachings of Islam regarding this.

If Ulema have failed to provide leadership in last 600 years why blame Ba Ba Blacksheep. And for that matter I don`t believe in Ulema providing leadership in a dynamic Islamic society. It is the dynamic Muslims who have the role of providing leadership whether they are Ulema or not in every field. And by dynamic Muslims I don`t mean politically active also.

Iranian lesson should be an eyeopener for Sunni orthodoxy. But they even don`t want to go beyond 13th century FINAL INTERPRETATION of Islam.

It is better to stick to issues. For example just giving the incidences showing how India gone back on its promises on Kashmir etc is a better way and more in Islamic or Quranic way of dealing. For every Ayah regarding Jews there is incidence given how they corrupted their books, how they killed their prophets etc. And nowhere it is mentioned that kill jews because he is jew. Or even kill jew. And these are points to ponder even for Muslims. Are we doing the same. As the Hadith says that Muslims will follow jews and christians in religion and even if they went into a lizard hole Muslims will follow that.

That is inspite of uncorrupted Quran we are fighting petty war with each other on petty issues.

Regards and Wassalam.

re. UrsTrulyDementedAndParanoid # 318

``Did you deliberately miss the first sentence of #312 so as to write such a praise for yours truly.``

actually, yes, as it bears no relevance to what I quoted. Du-uh!

`` Well no harm done with you having your little fun.``

Awww. and I thought it would at least piss you off enough to call me a pervert again or something like that. Jeez, I`m so disappointed!

``And by the way call bigot to someone who cares. I dont even care to have a second handle lest have my sex changed like a pervert.``

Well, I think we all know whose got whose number when the best one can do is `accuse` someone of taking on a second persona in cyberspace. Also, we know how far down the road of insanity one is when one starts equating a cyber-gender change with a real one -- not to mention when one forgets the meaning of the word `pervert` completely-- that`s where the dementia part came in. :)

As Aamir would say: ROTFL!!!

Keep posting buddy. I love to see a grown man make a fool of himself in public.

mithuna, thanks and sorry both...

tahmed321
Here is the way I look at it.
``direct involvement`` :
Those who engage in fund collection and recruitment for jihad like religious clerics and teachers, citizen members of their organisations etc or involvement in training etc like the Pakistani Army.
The equivalent direct involvement in starvation is wilfully withholding/hoarding of grain from the needy, (criminal)neglect of official responsibility in starvation-hit areas.

``complicity`` :
As those who speak for and engage in support of jihadic activities, monetarily, emotionally or merely condoning/facilitating like lower level Pakistani officaldom allows jihadi rallies but no political rallies, etc, ie, not directly involved, but very much invested or at least not actively opposing.
The equivalent would be politicians, media, general public being passive or unresponsive to starvation situations because they are essentially uncaring or unconcerned and gain nothing by getting involved.

The third degree of involvment here is``collective responsibility ``:
Citizens of a country are responsible for the acts/misdeeds/suffering/indigent circumstances of all other citizens in their country. Collective responsibility is not a moral romantic position of choice. Collective responsibility a necessary burdensome `duty` when there are serious future consequences of neglecting it. Most of us suit our sense of collective responsibility to the extent of our interest in thse matters, so these consequences can creep up on us unexpectedly.

Leaving aside ``Urstruly-types`` in my defination( though, Urstruly may be only blowing hot air), you and I as representative Pakistani and Indian `citizens` have to assume at worst complicity and at best collective responsibility for sending orphans into war or starvation deaths, however many degrees removed we may be physically or philosophically.

If thinking so and pointing that out makes me a bigot in your book, so be it. It doesnot make me one in my own,(not surprisingly) and I stand by what I say.

btw, jaded palates may sample these too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_own_correspondent/newsid_1340000/1340735.stm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jun/04jk3.htm

Pervert Massih

Did you deliberately miss the first sentence of #312 so as to write such a praise for yours truly. Well no harm done with you having your little fun. And by the way call bigot to someone who cares. I dont even care to have a second handle lest have my sex changed like a pervert.

Mahesh #311 One may define a bigot to be someone who is routinely and strongly partial to one`s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. I believe Sadna fits that definition. Her post #246 on this board (which caused me to term her a bigot) was as follows:

``Any estimate of how many Pakistanis have died fighting in Afghanistan or Kashmir? Do even Pakistanis care to record it? First they condone the brainwashing of their poor and their orphans, send them to die overseas `by their own choice`. (Catch any of them sending their own children for God`s reward). Then drink to `victories` but if any of these unfortunates happen to survive and return home, label them bigots and declare their existence within the national borders to be against national interest? How can such hypocrites(who are also plain stupid) prick anyone`s conscience, may I ask?``

I find this offensive, and hope you will agree with me.

krashid:

Issues?what issues?

Nepal is an avowed hindu state yet it has very cordial relations with Pakistan.In fact,if memory serves me right,PIA operated their airlines too one time.Why the hindus in India do not emulate them really baffles me.

The problem is not hindus,it is the Indian-hindus in secular clothing.

Jinnah should have fought for a separate homeland for hindus rather than muslims.The British should,legally,have returned the rule to the muslims who ruled 90 years prior to that.

The posts are as you know meant to cow-down these characters who are just nobodies.These beef-eating brahmans who sometimes become star & stripes,sometimes anti-clockwise swastikas and sometimes veer-chakars to suit the occasion.Of all people here the most out-of-practice black brahmin has the audacity to become a spokes-babboon for the the true honourable hindus (for whom I have all the respect).

Needless to point out it is such religious & cultural androids who are the real curse on our society.

A true Ba Ba Blacksheep he trying to wrap himself in stars & stripes and then learning to growl at those who refuse to imitate him.

Such home-grown aliens are no longer considered glamouras by those who acquired true learning.

The world is no longer anglocentric but such kind will hop in once they know that there is some material benefit to them.

wassalaam.

re #312

``I will accept all the accusations and will take all the blame for all the historic injustices that my forefathers have done if you stop punishing and starving your ``own`` people to avenge them.``

Whose asking anyone to take resposnibility for the sins of their forefathers? How is the punishing and starving of one`s ``own`` people linked to that issue anyway? SHouldn`t it more rightly be linked to the punishing and starving of people in one`s own backyard.

`` The rape of a women is the most heineous, most horrendous, and most cowardly crime that man has ever invented. It has no justification whatsoever.``

err.. and your point is?

Tell us something we don`t know, please, instead of feeding us this rhetoric that may make you feel less of a bigot.

Reply #: 269 hobbyty

``The best and the brightest - The cream of the Crop``

uh-hahn - SOUR CREAM ie : )

aicha