The Cling Effect

Re Asif Naqshbandi 20 / hamidm 22

Your quotes on taqdeer or destiny especially 4 just make me think that since God knows everything that Zaid would do in this world.. why on earth Zaid has to be born on this earth ??? why he isn`t sent directly to hell or heaven... whats the point of justifying if everything is extremely accurately written for him (because God is aware of what Zaid will do)... what I mean to say is why God has to justify it to Zaid that though God was aware of what he`ll do still He let Zaid do that bad stuff and now he is to be sent to hell ?.. and whats the point of creating all the human beings if they`ll do exactly the same thing as written in their fate and will end up in heaven or hell.. agreeing with u on this hamidm.. why is Mr. Asif feeling sorry for that person who was murdered?? it was his fate according to u.. isn`t it ??... it was God`s will and its God`s will too to create Taliban right ?... it was bound to happen. He was aware of it from the beginning of the Universe about Zaid and Tom, Dick and Harry... and by the way Kiran- unfortunately most of the scientific discoveries have been made by non-muslims but according to you God chose it to be revealed on them (muslims aren`t doing a good job but still they atleast think and fear God relatively more than those making discoveries.. so ?... and Mr. Asif how the suicide is justified.. is it destined too ??... waiting for these queries to be resolved

Regards

Farzee

An excellent article. You took age old questions and looked at them from very different perspectives. And finally, thanks for writting a cohisive article, logical arguments, and references!

The only question that comes to my mind is: How do you explain the scientific renaissance of the early Muslims?

krashid:

You just pointed the problem out yourself, when you said, ``Beyond Quran,`` that is the reason, for our endless troubles. Where in Quran, does Allah tell you to go and kill people of different sects? Umm, wait! Quran says NOT to create sects. Our problems are self-created, so why cry bloody murder now! When the base goes wrong, even sky-scrapers collapse, never forget that.

moidalam:

Aww, so you wanna fight? Well, I`m not going to give you the satisfaction. However to answer your nonsensical statement regarding my faith: I thought fourth-graders weren`t allowed to say Viagara.

And next time make an effort to come back with something intelligent; or I`ll just ignore your trite remarks.

Try to have a nice day! :)

krashid:

You just pointed the problem out yourself, when you said, ``Beyond Quran,`` that is the reason, for our endless troubles. Where in Quran, does Allah tell you to go and kill people of different sects? Umm, wait! Quran says NOT to create sects. Our problems are self-created, so why cry bloody murder now! When the base goes wrong, even sky-scrapers collapse, never forget that.

moidalam:

Aww, so you wanna fight? Well, I`m not going to give you the satisfaction. However to answer your nonsensical statement regarding my faith: I thought fourth-graders weren`t allowed to say Viagara.

And next time make an effort to come back with something intelligent; or I`ll just ignore your trite remarks.

Try to have a nice day! :)

kiran

``I wonder if blasphemy is the psychological Viagara? Hmm``

Good, striking line!

well if blashemey is really a VIAGRA, then it is perhaps against the impotence of ur faith.

:) how is that?

Kiran #

Why are Sipahe Sahaba Activist killing Barelvi activist and vice versa. Which Islamic way of life is complete.

And which is wrong.

Pray, fast, Give Zakaat, Hajj, refrain from evil, and incite good. Add Usury to list and apply family laws of Islam.

If you can show more to the complete way of life you will be killing each other because each way of life is different beyond Quran. Which incidently is Islam or Islamic way of life.

Wait for unleashing of wars between COMPLETE ways of life in the name of Islam.

Very well-said Asif Naqshbandi (Reply #20) I couldn`t agree more.

Mr. Tanweer Ahmed the problem with the human mind is a rather simple one: If it aquires a higher level of education and I mean higher than the ordinary, it begins questioning its surroundings in a negative manner, thinking it`s doing humanity a favor; though usually just making a fool of itself. You sir, are just that sorry example.

Islam, is a complete way of life, it has answers to inquiries, no other religion allocates. The Holy Quran provides us with those answers. Blaming religion has always been the weapon of feeble minds, whose impotency at solving social problems, reduces them to spew such bile. I wonder if blasphemy is the psychological Viagara? Hmm.

If alluding to Macbeth and Othello were a sign of education, junkies sitting outside the subway stations, would make great professors. Education, is the realization of the ultimate truth: that Allah has given us all free will, and we choose our paths. If only multi-lettered degrees helped one become educated, we wouldn`t have speculating fools such as yourself. And remember Science provides us with answers Allah CHOOSES for us to find out. Why haven`t we found a cure for AIDS yet? Inspite of all the so-called scientific advances why haven`t scientists eliminated genetic disorders? Need I go on.

If only for once people thought about Allah and the legions of the bounties he provides us with, maybe we would then just shut up and say Alhamdolilah, as many times as possible.

May Allah help you see the right path!

Very well-said Asif Naqshbandi (Reply #20) I couldn`t agree more.

Mr. Tanweer Ahmed the problem with the human mind is a rather simple one: If it aquires a higher level of education and I mean higher than the ordinary, it begins questioning its surroundings in a negative manner, thinking it`s doing humanity a favor; though usually just making a fool of itself. You sir, are just that sorry example.

Islam, is a complete way of life, it has answers to inquiries, no other religion allocates. The Holy Quran provides us with those answers. Blaming religion has always been the weapon of feeble minds, whose impotency at solving social problems, reduces them to spew such bile. I wonder if blasphemy is the psychological Viagara? Hmm.

If alluding to Macbeth and Othello were a sign of education, junkies sitting outside the subway stations, would make great professors. Education, is the realization of the ultimate truth: that Allah has given us all free will, and we choose our paths. If only multi-lettered degrees helped one become educated, we wouldn`t have speculating fools such as yourself. And remember Science provides us with answers Allah CHOOSES for us to find out. Why haven`t we found a cure for AIDS yet? Inspite of all the so-called scientific advances why haven`t scientists eliminated genetic disorders? Need I go on.

If only for once people thought about Allah and the legions of the bounties he provides us with, maybe we would then just shut up and say Alhamdolilah, as many times as possible.

May Allah help you see the right path!

HamidM #22

These Days if a Sharmilee from Chichon Ki Malyan gives a call of strike in Karachi against banning of Mujra, people of Karachi will come out with same fervor.

It has nothing to do with pious Maulana`s Islam. The temparature is already high and needs only a small push.

From traders, to industrialist to people sacked from jobs to prices of amenities to Governors rule in Karachi in previous regime to water and electricity crises to police and rangers ad infinitum.

Ai Karachi Marhaba, for showing the rest of country to fight for the rights instead of bowing down to every dictator.

I don`t know what happened to Lahore. It was very vocal against Ayub Khan`s dictatorship.

Asif Naqshbandi:

y weep over Saleem Qadri? if he was innocent, he would be in paradise, f/king the brains out of 70 whores (or `hoors`?). Good for him, isnt it?

naqshbandi

....``BTW will you guys join me in condemning those terrorists who martyred in cold blood a gentle sufi sunni scholar Saleem Qadri and his son``

.......... all you had to do was ask.... we, the faithful, have already responded to the call of the sunni tehrik and will make sure that the streets of karachi run red with the blood of shias, amhmedis and other assorted kafirs and heretics ......takbeer !.... we will also burn all the cars and busses and replace them with camels and jackasses to make the streets of karachi look like the streets of medina munawara in the time of the prophet and the streets of kabul in the time of mulla omar..... takbeer !

``Karachi was mostly closed today as residents obeyed a call given by Sunni Tehrik group for a one-day strike to protest against the murder of its leader. Shops, schools and businesses were shuttered, while public transport stayed off the roads, witnesses said. One person has died and about eight vehicles have been torched as strike gripped Karachi today, police said.``

hamidm...I have to confess that though i disagree totally with most things you write i do find your style extremely witty and amusing...

You said that the matter of Destiny IS confusing; well yes and no. The following is enough for us and beyond it we are not encouraged to delve. This is the Ahle SunnaH aqeedah:

[quote]

WHAT IS DESTINY (TAQDIR)?

1. Within the Knowledge of Allah Ta`ala, He wrote what was going to happen in the world and whatever His servants were going to do.

2. Allah Ta’ala wrote good in some people`s fate and wrote bad in another person`s fate.

3. He did not make the person helpless by writing this down, but wrote down what the servant was going to do.

4. An example of this is that if Allah Ta’ala wrote bad for Zaid, then it was because He is aware that Zaid is going to do bad, and if Zaid was to do good, then He would have written good for Zaid, thus His Writing and His Knowledge did not make any person compelled.

5. After performing bad deeds you should not say that this happened because it was Allah Ta`ala`s will and therefore it was in my destiny, but all good things are done with the Pleasure of Allah Ta`ala and all bad deeds are done with the pleasure of one`s desires.

6.To believe yourself as totally without will or totally helpless is a misguided belief. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) has referred to those who do not believe in Taqdir to be like fire-worshippers of his Ummah.

7. It is forbidden to discuss or debate the subject of destiny. A person should only think that they are not helpless like stones and therefore cannot do anything according to their will, but actually Allah Ta`ala has given humans the power to do as they please and the reward and sin is based upon this power of will. Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique and Hazrat Umar-e-Farooq (radi Allahu anhuma) were prohibited from discussing Taqdir.

[/quote] from http://www.raza.co.za/20.1b.htm

BTW will you guys join me in condemning those terrorists who martyred in cold blood a gentle sufi sunni scholar Saleem Qadri and his son etc. These ``jihadis`` are a disgrace to all Muslims and a blot on Pakistan`s name. I, in my ignorance, many have supported some things they did in the past on Chowk but it is clear now that these extremists of the Deobandi and Wahabi (Taliban) schools are using the jihad cause as a cover to get money out of poor people and use it for their own murderous activities to kill off those righteous Sunni ulama who expose them. May Allah bless Allamah Saleem Qadri, an ashiq-e-Rasul (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) with Jannat ul Firdaws. ameen.

Though the author`s article was obviously well researched and written I could not help getting the feeling whilst reading it that he has already decided that the prevalent post-modern Western theory of existence and life and the history of human development is the correct one! Thus this argument is nothing more than an attempt to show--as others have noted--the conflict between (Western) ``Science`` and ``Religion`` and the respected author has fallen firmly on the side of ``Science``. (Why am I not surprised?!)

I am also a scientist but I do not agree that modern scientific rationalism is the answer to all oou questions; indeed by its very definition science cannot answer the really BIG questions of Life. Why are we here? Where do we come from? How was the Universe created? By whom? What happens after death? What is the purpose of Life? etc. etc.

The answer to all these questions of course is remarkably simple: Allah.

However since the Renaissance and esp. since the Industrial Revolution the whole gambit of Western philosophy and science has been to try to take God/Allah out of the picture!

As Rumi (may Allah sanctify his secret!) said, ``It is the fate of the Unbeliever not to believe in fate!``

Allah`s Beloved Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) informed us from his knowledge of the Unseen (which Allah had gifted to him) that a time would come when people will ask, ``Who created God?`` Subhan Allah! May I be sacrificed for the piercing knowledge and gaze of Allah`s Habib who informed us of what the non-Muslim, kafi, philosophers are asking!!

The very fact that all major religions are undergoing a big revival, esp. in the USA, (and Islam is making particular inroads--esp. Rumi!!) indicates that despite making amazing material and technological progress the people are finding a spiritual vacuum in their lives and are looking desperately for answers. They have realised what that great Prophet of Allah, Isa the son of Mary (alayhimusalaam) informed us:

``Man does not live by bread alone.``

It is a lesson those intent on aping and taking aboard all aspects of Western modern thinking out to remember.

Anyway please excuse me for I did say that I would only interact on Chowk very rarely a while back and I intend to stick to that. It is Rabi ul Awwal Sharif and the blessed date is not far now (the 12th) when Allah Ta`ala honoured this world with the Presence of His Unique Darling, The Beloved Of Allah, The Mercy to the Universes, The One Created from His Own Noor, The Sultan of ``Lawlak``, Our Sayyid and Mawla Hadrat Abu`l Qasim, Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abd al Muttalib al Hashimi al Qurayshi sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. Yes, The Blessed Month of the Milad is upon us and we must all rejoice at this greatest of blessings of Allah.

A verse which I heard at a Naat Conference yesterday--and it is relevant to this topic of the author`s too. The writer says:

Maana ke chand par jaana haqiqat hi sahi

Chand ko qadmon mein girana baRee baat hai!

This poem has a lot of meaning for the Ahle Ilm and Ahle Science especially if they but reflect a little.

Subhan Allah!

...this whole thing about free will, predestination, divine plan and so on is extremely complex and most people spend sleepless nights wondering if the chicken was predestined to cross the road or was it simply because he wanted to .... great philosophers have fretted and fussed over this ponderous question and popes, pontiffs and ayatollahs have dispatched many a heretic who didn`t agree with their answer to this question to hell.....

........... simple folk, like me, sometimes have a hard time grasping these profound and oracular arguments as put forth by kant who, as pointed out by shah, believed that `` a person must be free because freedom is a necessary postulate of the moral consciousness; the Kantian categorical imperative is beyond any theoretical analysis. The prevailing philosophical opinion has been that partial self-determination exists, and that,

although many considerations other than will are involved in the formation of moral judgments, in certain circumstances a core remains, however small, of creative decision``......... uh? ... come again ? ....... are we lost ? ... is there hope ?

........ not to worry .... there is another great philosopher who has explained this whole divine plan thing simply, yet eloquently .... george carlin says :

``.......I`ve often thought people treat God rather rudely, don`t you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It`s not nice. And it`s no way to treat a friend.



But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you`d really like to f//k that hot

little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you`d have to. And

I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?



Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn`t in God`s Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just

for you? Doesn`t it seem a little arrogant? It`s a Divine Plan. What`s the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and f//k up Your Plan?



And here`s something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren`t answered. What do you say? ``Well, it`s God`s will.`` ``Thy Will Be Done.`` Fine, but if it`s God`s will, and He`s going to do what He wants to anyway, why the f//k bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn`t you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It`s all very confusing. ..................``

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This was a cool article...at least until I fell asleep in the middle of it (not your fault)...

But I find your references to ``DNA`` unnerving.

``Firstly, since thelanguage-transmitted information does not always complement the DNA based instructions, they consider it unnatural.``

Please explain what DNA instructions you`re talking about and explain the context in which you are referring to DNA....

Dear Tanweer Ahmed: Thanks for presenting a well-researched article at Chowk. However, I think you need to further refine Cling Effect in the light of modern research in behavior Science in addition to genetic one.

According to one theory, what accelerated evolution of mankind from chimps all the way to hunter gatherers was a long nurture period for the infants in humans. Mammals generally require parenting for a longer period with humans the most. This is because, new born human is much less equipped with natural instincts for survival. This decreases the influence of DNA on learning and behavior in the case of homosapiens as compared to other species. The element of imitation is very important during the formative or early years of one`s life. They learn from parents through imitation and nurturing by parents. To the best of my knowledge no other species keeps their children with them for even 6 years. The imitation stage leads to individual thinking either based on their learning during apeing period or without it. All genes are selfish in terms of desire for survival through regeneration or reproduction process. At the same time genes are very cooperative with other genes of the same species. The term selfish really means ease in making copies due to lower activation energy than competitive non-copying processes.

Thus DNA has little to do with the cling effect in social, political or cultural areas. The cling effect is more of a collective phenomenon as opposed to genetic where genes of each individual do not interact of genes of another individual except during reproduction, Dolly the Sheep excluded.

The cling effect in Pakistan is selective. The people of Pakistan are not clinging on to indiscriminate past. Again, at individual level, those who could afford having a car are having a car instead of a camel. Those who could afford color TV are not clinging on to Black and White TV and so on. It is the collective psyche that looks at selective past better than present, trying to mimick the selective past and the wxceeding the past an impossibility because of past being an example of absolute perfection. Other aspect of cling effect is to oppose reason in favor of faith, because reason might contradict faith at certain level of knowledge and understanding. Since faith is the toughest rope to cling on to, reason is sacrified at the alter of faith. Remember Abraham; he did not reason with faith. He just woke up his son, sought his approval and took him to the alter.

Dear Tanweer,

I would just like to follow from your biological examples and take it from there. The combination of insecurity alloyed with a strong will to survive is an explosive and perhaps the most potent combination one requires to succeed/evolve.

On a biological level, compare a plant and an animal cell. A plant cell has it`s own cell wall (it`s castle) and it makes it`s own food. An animal cell on the other hand is a homeless bum that has to forage for food otherwise it will die. So even though the plant cell lives a more secure life, the animal cell is far superior as it graduates to many levels. It gains colours, it gains locomotion, it gains a thought, it gains soul and it gets to place a flag on the Moon etc etc etc.

On the human level, insecure people turn to entrepreneurs while those living safe lives do not.

Pakistan is a hive of insecure people. This is a treasure chest that many people do not realise, for if this resource could be channelled into a positive direction, if this resource could be tapped into and nourished, something spectacular could come up. But then, what`s needed are people who can set examples and this follows my last post. I once again come to people like Edhi who have devoted their whole lives to setting an example. Of course, the next phase would be to take the baton and form collectives (and I think I`m beginning to digress here) who have enough strength to devote their lives to the cause and amplify the effect and therefore get the ball rolling.

We do not need to go into huge historical details. Our very Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was the greatest example. He was an example to people who were suffering. Though he was an example to all, he was an example especially to the poor, the masses, the ones with huge reservoirs of insecurity. After his example, they were the ones who stood up and made the changes.

This of course does lead to the `when is our Amir Ul Momineen going to come` syndrome but that is another post sometime.

Take care

Umer.M.Phoenix.

Dear Tanweer,

Fascinating article. Absolutely wonderful.

I wonder if one clings to their past because it is the only thing good for that individual. The advent of globalisation, global village etc means that the ideas of the West, (some good, some bad- some enlightening and some down right stupid) are being shoved onto our psyche, almost at a bullish level.

I sometimes feel that we, as Muslims or as Pakistanis, reject the West because if we were to accept many of it`s ideals which indeed are good, then our rise from the ashes would be credited not to our hard work, not to our religion, not to our culture but to some external influence. Are we afraid of this tag because let us be honest, no one will let us forget this.

Perhaps, in the process of shutting out the outside influence, we are blocking the good things as well. But then, any proud nation must feel that they were the ones who helped themselves. No one wants to be a beggar.

Perhaps, this is not a Pakistani/Muslim phenomenon but a human phenomenon. The Europeans/ Christians, in the days of Muslim hey days, did not accept complete charity.

People like Roger Bacon, the Freemason who introduced modern science to England studied in Muslim Spain. Let`s be honest, the Renaissance would not have begun or would have been very different had it not been for the Muslims. Even Leonardo da Vinci, apparently had a Muslim as one of his mentors and had visited Turkey.

And yet, they did not accept Arabic as the language of science. Instead they translated everything into Latin. This sounds absolutely ridiculous. It can be compared to one translating English into Urdu, and yet this is exactly what happened.

Also, there is no mention of the Muslim scholars who were the progenitors of Modern science in Modern documentaries. It`s always the Greeks (and credit does go to them). Little does the average observer know that Greek works were utilised, worked upon, understood, dismissed and enhanced by the Muslims and it was from Muslims from where the Europeans got the Greek works.

This phenomenon then, that is to shut out the bigger power, is perhaps an ego survival mechanism. It is perhaps a recipe for disaster or maybe success.

The other fact is that only a few people are born leaders, the majorities are followers. I speak from personal example from the age when I was 13 to even now, 9 years later.

The bit above then leads to: are people following the Christian example? Is there anyone setting examples. Very few people, I`m afraid. Edhi is the first person that comes into my mind. Unfortunately, he`s over 70 now and I sincerely hope one of us will replace him.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings and I will read you article again as it was so good and hope to speak to you more.

Take care and best wishes.

Umer.M.Phoenix

Tanveer,

A good analysis. I hope your voice gets heard. I do wonder though how you manage to write this way in the prevailing Mullah culture. Best of luck, and I will keep an eye out for your book.

tahmed,

How true.

Imitation is fundamental to the sustenance of human life and the development of human civilization. It is a key form of learning that flies in the face of the all-too-common `Not Made In Here`` syndrome.

Eklayva #3 I guess that is one way to look at things. Even ``scientific discovery`` is a first step towards imitation - the imitation of nature`s (or God`s) way of doing things. The discoveries in genetics are bound, imho, to have a widespread impact in all fields of human endeavor, ranging from medicine to the computer sciences to the social sciences.

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AeishA # 5

Israel/jews seem(s) to have evolved a dichotomous system. While some jews are extremely orthodox, a great majority of them is very liberal. So much so, in fact, that Jews are often the target of hate for the crime of `spreading immorality.`

Read the following letter appearing in today`s Jang/News:

Harmonious relationship by Farah Naz

I congratulate Muhammad Naveed Ahmad on writing a thought-provoking article `A historic gesture`. The author has highlighted the significance of harmonious relationship between Muslims and Christians in the wake of Zionist`s hidden heinous agenda of converting the whole humanity into nihilist, atheists and directionless mob.

The West, which claims to be the saviour of humanity, is itself at the verge of collapse as far as moral values and ethics are concerned. In order to preserve humanity from complete moral destruction, the followers of both the religions should join hands in combating the ever-increasing menace of lust, greed and apathy towards fellow beings. The only thing bothering my mind while reading the article is that the author has mentioned Negus, the ruler of Abyssinia, as Christian. According to my limited knowledge Negus had embraced Islam. Can anyone put us wise on it?

Its good to know that even in this daur-e-jahliat, there are people in Pakiatn who seems reasonable.This was a very intersting article and i quite agree espacially the portion related to religion as science.

Religion belong to the time when magic ruled supreme but its really sad to see that even today most of the people, even so called educated people look towards religion to provide answers to human suffering. I must congradulate Mr.Tanwaeer Ahmed on writing this article. Keep it up.

tahmed321 # 2

Here is a nice quotation from Gabriel Tarde - the French sociologist philosopher who is known as the father of mimesis - the study of mimicry.

Everything is either invention or imitation . . . There is nothing less subtle than this point of view; but in holding to it . . . we may, perhaps, notice how well fitted it is to bring into relief all the picturesqueness and, at the same time, all the simplicity of history.

Tanweer (incidentally, I am quite sure I know you and will let you know next time we meet): You would be doing a great service by writing this book. I hope to provide some of my own two-penny`s worth in the course of discussion on your article. For now, let me point to two relevant articles in the Scientific American (published within the past year):

One is on Geography, Climate and Economics: It says how economists are now realizing that they have been wrong in ignoring geography and climate and the great impact they have in human development. Anyone who has sweated it out in the stifling South Asia summers vs. the pleasant winters will understand this better than any PhDs.

The second is on Memetics: Basically says that mimicking successful behavior is a trait of humans first and foremost - not of monkeys :-). Even has a name ``Memetics``. Again very relevant as we Pakistanis struggle between a culture of the 19th century vs. the demands of this century.

Good luck.

I liked the ``Public Servant`` part in the introduction.

Mr. Ahmad! a detailed response on your work is coming up as soon as I start and then finish reading it. Finally we have something with proper references indicating that some research work is behind it- a rarity at Chowk.