Little White Pills

#5 Scout, I agree with your funny comment, but Bismil`s work has more than just sex, Indian, and Pakistani. Good work, Bismil. Keep it up!

Farhan

exact same Zeejah case. The short Mrs rashid did make me read more from you. Good work. Keep it up! This reminds me of my stay in Aitchison and how ``sexuality`` was a joke there since everyone is ``fakely gay`` as in, we joke about gay stuff and to most elite Pakistani`s homosexuality does not exist. I myself am doing research on ``gay gene`` vs `` environmental homosexuality`` debate before I can make up my mind. Are people born gay? Do they become gay? If they become gay, is not it reversable? And if so, then why reverse?
-Khosa

i came to this after reading about Mrs Rashid ... and liked it as much... hope to be reading more from you
zee

Unsophisticatus_Maximus

when you say:

``Let`s say my next door neighbor is gay... he earns as much as I do... he spends all of it on himself. Who do you think is better off... me or my neighbor? Who do you think is better for the society as a whole... me or my neighbor? Yes... both of us work as hard and benefit the society by the same amount... but then I get to keep much less in return because I go on to benefit the society even more by raising three children!``

My friend, isn`t it your choice how many children you raise? And suppose if your neighbour is not gay, a bachelor, then what? Will you hold it against him? Does the society even gives him a choice to get legally married. Or what about married people who can`t or don`t want children then what? And how do you know he is not contributing to the society? My friend those are just assumptions and sometimes assumptions are the death of reality.

So you say:

``Ever wondered what the world would be like if all of us were gays? (well, for one, it would be extremely disgusting... but this is not the point here) There would be no ``effective`` society as no one would care for anyone else! So one thing is for sure... we can`t allow those two gay guyz to live happily as a couple and take away the rights of the a vast majority of the society!``

So what are you fearing here, that you would become a minority? or once you become a minority the society would treat you like the way you treat ``the minority``?

So you say:

``there are so many things which appearently seem unfair... there are people who are born blind, crippled etc... and they are naturally like that too. What do they do... just bear it for the most part!``

Its funny how easily you say that. Ofcourse everyone have their crosses to bear but then there are ways that the society trys to help them and lessen their obsticles. Try to put yourself in their shoes and that includes all those people or segments of the society that you hold grudges for, i am sure your walls will crumble, for i do have a feeling that you are capable of that.

karakoram:#76

smiles...laughTER----GuffAWS.

Thanks.

``Woh Inny hongay jo kehtay haiN shehvat kul humay hogee

Yahaan tayyar baithay haiN,murra ley jiss ka jee chahay``

Inny:means impotent.

WASSALAM.

Unsophisticated_Mountamus:

``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.`` (Hadith)

Is this a Abu Huraira hadith ?

Someone should tell these men to get off the throne.

shankar #120 ``Jeeze; I hope youre from Kerala. The Keralites I know personally are pretty intelligent guys:) Wonder what major malfunction befell Jay in the course of the development of his brain?``

You know, I too have wondered on this anomalous situation.

Sorry to butt in

``EACH ORGAN HAS ITS PRIMARY & SUGGESTED USE ``

true but htere is also something called out-of-the-box thinking : )

I have noticed some double standards here too on the part of men&women regarding gays and lesbians. They seem to be more fascinated by homosexuality of the opposite sex(imaginations tripping) hence a little more acceptable of this fact and more threatened by that displayed by hteir own sex. I wonder why taht is so : )

But it hits you the most having to see a near and dear one go thru the process of figuring out his/her sexual orientation - one of the hardest things to do. All you fcan do is give them all the love,support and courage and pray taht the rest of the world will not be judgemental. Some come out while some reamin lost forever.

#: 57

scout

anNy #51,

Hmmm, I can understand your stance. About alcohol and drugs, they inevitably cause harm. I dont` think you can say the same about homosexuality though

SCOUT,I SUGGEST YOU READ EITHER TRANSLATION OF KORAN BY M.YOUSUF,PICTHAL,OR SHAKIR

VISIT ISLAM INFO SITES LIKE iISLAM.ORG.



Topic: Homosexuality

FROM TRANSLATION INTO ENGLISH BY YUSUF ALI

The Poets (Arabic) - Recite

26:165 ``Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,





The Poets (Arabic) - Recite

26:166 ``And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!``





The Ant, The Ants (Arabic) - Recite

27:55 Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!





The Spider (Arabic) - Recite

29:28 And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: ``Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.





The Spider (Arabic) - Recite

29:29 ``Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?`` But his people gave no answer but this: they said: ``Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth.``

Reply #: 64

abysmal

The Gay movement ,in the western countries,have yet to win acceptence religously either in Christianity or Judeaism.

And these religion according to muslims like us ,are corrupted religion due to many deviation from its original scriptures.Without useless debate of gays trying to twist surah Fatiha & naming there group Al Fatiha or conservative sections siting even more descriptions of Hell Fire sodom & gomorrho ,i think is waste of time.

If there are christian & jew ,Hindu Sikh ,Buddhist gays,there must be gay tendency in many muslims.After all Islam is not an antidote against gayness,nor is it predesposed towards it.

The official reaction of mainstream Islam probably will be very much like mainstream christianity,& judeoism.While opposition to gays will be present & ostracization may continue ,but if Gay Muslims want they can organize themselves as yet another special interest group ,within the ummah,at best or outlawed muslims like Ahmedia group.

The fear of the mainstream muslims is to stop active encouragement of otherwise bisexual or borderline tendency ,encouraged to express themselves agressively & there by increase there clout neumerically.

[The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 6.23.2001]

ATLANTA PRIDE 2001

VERNON CARNE / Staff



Homosexual people who embrace Islam struggle to find a place within their faith

By SAEED AHMED

Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

MICHAEL TEMCHINE / Special

Activist Faisal Alam says he and others are ``putting forth a human face`` to counter the idea that there are no gays within Islam.

From a life of secrecy

to gradual emergence

The intolerance and hostility of the conservative Muslim community around the world toward gay Muslims drove many of them underground, where for years they lived in constant fear of being discovered.

The few occasions they banded together proved disastrous.

In 1979, a San Francisco-based group, the Lavender Crescent Society, sent five members to Iran to create a gay Muslim movement. The five were taken straight from the airport to a prison and killed.

And in the early 1990s, a Toronto-based organization, Min-Alaq, folded after its members received death threats from other Muslims.

With the advent of the Internet, however, gay Muslims have found a safe and anonymous place for their exchanges -- from sites that let them identify themselves by nationality, such as Gay Iran, to those built around ethnic affiliation, such as the Gay and Lesbian Arab Society of New York.

Al-Fatiha, which grew out of an e-mail discussion group in 1997, now has nine chapters in the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada, and claims to have reached more than 2,000 Muslims.

There are even plans to open a chapter in Jerusalem -- in conjunction with Jerusalem Open House, a multifaith gay center co-founded by Steven Greenberg, an openly gay Orthodox rabbi in the United States.

``Roughly a thousand years ago, in cities like Baghdad and Granada, Jews and Muslims created vibrant, religiously complex and remarkably open cultures, which included a quiet toleration of same-sex love,`` said Greenberg, who sees the partnership as an experiment in cultural renewal.

``Our traditions have very old and venerable resources of tolerance and respect for difference. Our job is to find them and run with them.``

-- Saeed Ahmed



The dinner invitations stopped coming months ago. The letters and phone calls ceased shortly after.

Ever since Shareef Khatib came out to his family at a holiday gathering in Tampa last year, he has felt increasingly ostracized by his father.

Khatib`s tale is yet another instance of a gay son rejected by a deeply religious parent, but with a twist.

The 22-year-old graduate student, who lives in Atlanta, is also a Muslim.

And in a faith that condemns homosexuality as an abomination, Khatib`s dual identity presents a contradiction his father cannot reconcile.

``In my father`s eyes, I have become everything I was brought up to hate,`` said Khatib, who is part-Palestinian, part-British. ``I went through a long period of guilt and self-hatred until I realized that being gay and Muslim isn`t an oxymoron.``

At a time when major religious denominations are grappling with the issue of homosexuality in their ranks -- from Baptist congregations divided over reaching out to gays and lesbians, to the country`s largest group of rabbis sanctioning same-sex unions in the spring of last year -- a small but growing number of gay Muslims are seeking validation of their sexual identity within Islam.

``For too long we`ve been relegated to the outside boundaries of Islam,`` Khatib said. ``It`s time to stop hiding.``

This weekend, more than 150 Muslims -- including Khatib and a handful of other Atlantans -- are gathered in San Francisco to explore ways to cope with the challenges they face in their faith as gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals.

The participants, who have traveled from countries as far away as Bangladesh, are members of Al-Fatiha, the only international support group for gay Muslims in the world.

On Sunday, the group will march for the first time as a gay Muslim entity in San Francisco`s Pride Parade, the world`s largest gay and lesbian celebration.

Faisal Alam, who founded the organization as a college student four years ago, said he named the group Al-Fatiha -- Arabic for ``the opening`` and title of the first chapter of the Muslim holy book, the Quran -- because he wanted to initiate a conversation with orthodox Muslims.

``The only reason the Muslim community hasn`t challenged homophobia is because it refuses to believe that homosexuality exists in their community,`` said Alam, now a caseworker for the National Minority AIDS Council in Washington. ``We are putting forth a human face to challenge that perception.``

Al-Fatiha`s movement comes during a period when Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the United States. There are an estimated 6 million Muslims in this country and some 1.2 billion worldwide, according to the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Al-Fatiha claims that a full 10 percent of the Muslim population -- or 120 million -- is gay, although actual figures do not exist.

`Roles assigned to you`

Gay Muslims face an insurmountable obstacle in their quest for acceptance, said Plemon El-Amin, spiritual leader of the Atlanta Masjid of Al-Islam, an area mosque.

The Quran -- considered the final word on Islamic matters -- contains explicit proscriptions against homosexuality, El-Amin said.

Like the Old Testament, the Muslim holy book includes the story of Lot (Lut in the Quran), who narrowly escaped death when God destroyed the residents of Sodom (the Quran doesn`t mention Gomorrah) because, according to the text, they ``commit unnatural offense and come with lust unto men instead of women whom your Lord had created for you.``

``The whole position Islamically is that God makes you either a man or a woman and you`re responsible for upholding the roles assigned to you,`` El-Amin said.

Some gay Muslims say that those who use the story of Lot as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality are misinterpreting the scripture. It`s a similar complaint often raised by gay Christians and Jews.

Omar Nahas, an activist for the Yoesuf Foundation -- an organization based in the Netherlands working to change the view of homosexuality in religion -- said the men of Sodom were punished not for their same-sex preferences, but because they broke ancient codes of hospitality.

``When we talk about homosexuality, we`re talking about a relationship based on love and consent,`` Nahas said. ``When we talk about Sodom, we`re talking about a group of people who were punished by God for demanding that Lot turn over his visitors so that they might rape and molest them.``

The debate can never be definitively resolved. Since Islam is a nonhierarchal religion, there is no pope, for example, to hand down decrees. So scholars can make various pronouncements regarding homosexual behavior without a centralized religious authority taking an official stance, said Abdullahi An-Na`im, a professor of Islamic law at Emory University.

To him, the best approach is to avoid the issue, since a dialogue might actually make it worse for those in the sexual minority.

``The fact that it is not debated allows the informal practice to continue more than if it were debated,`` he said.

Others say a conversation is exactly what`s needed.

``In many ways, Al-Fatiha exactly parallels where gay Catholics were 25 to 30 years ago,`` said Marianne Duddy, executive director of Dignity/USA, the nation`s oldest and largest gay Catholic association. ``Our first five years were all about just putting the words gay and Catholic together.``

Today, a number of outreach programs exist for gay Catholics, and the group boasts 2,700 members.

Death penalty

Homosexuality in Muslim society is nothing new.

While some in the orthodox Muslim community grouse that the practice is a recent ``Western import,`` author Stephen Murray, in his book ``Islamic Homosexualities,`` said homosexuality has been prevalent in Islamic countries for centuries.

The poetic works of the Sufis -- Muslim mystics who were said to have fully understood the meaning of Islam and creation -- are rife with homoerotic themes, said Murray, who has written extensively about homosexuality in various cultures.

What is recent, however, are laws that have been introduced to punish same-sex behavior, he said.

Of the 82 countries where homosexuality is against the law, 36 are predominantly Muslim, including all nine where the practice is punishable by death, according to the International Lesbian and Gay Association, a coalition of groups fighting for equal rights for gays.

In Afghanistan, for example, a wall is collapsed on top of those convicted of sodomy, despite the fact that the Quran stipulates no specific punishment for homosexuality, as it does, say, for adultery.

In more liberal countries, such as the United States, gay Muslims say they are often scorned and targeted for violence.

Ifti Nasim, a gay Pakistani poet, was attacked at a Chicago restaurant in March by a man who declared an Islamic jihad, or holy war, against gay Muslims.

And an Al-Fatiha retreat last year in London was almost abandoned at the eleventh hour after threats from a conservative Muslim group.

It`s worst for lesbian Muslims, Al-Fatiha members said.

While Muslim men can often get away with gay liaisons as long as they are discreet and fulfill social appearances by getting married to the opposite sex, the patriarchal structure of many Muslim societies means that women are under pressure to conform to the role of dutiful daughters.

Atlantan Amira Husseiny, a Palestinian graduate student, said she`s pursuing a master`s degree in part because she needed an excuse to avoid being married.

``I think I will probably end up with a Ph.D.,`` Husseiny added, only half-jokingly.

Her former partner endured years of physical and mental abuse and was eventually coerced into marriage to a Muslim man who ``eats pork and drinks but is not considered less of a Muslim,`` Husseiny said.

Alcohol and pork are forbidden in Islam; there`s no specific mention of lesbianism in the Quran.

Taking different paths

In the face of such relentless opposition, gay Muslims often find themselves asking why they continue to embrace a faith that is so reluctant, in turn, to embrace them.

Many don`t. They see their two identities as being mutually exclusive and walk away from Islam.

That is what Shareef Khatib did for six years after coming to terms with his sexuality at 15.

``Then I realized that people have spiritual needs that have to be met independent of the official policy of a denomination,`` said Khatib, who considers himself a practicing Muslim again. ``A handful of verses is not the sum total of a religion.``

Others, like Aamer Ibrahim, head of the Atlanta chapter of Al-Fatiha, can only reconcile their two identities by picking one over the other.

In Ibrahim`s case, his religion takes precedence over his sexual orientation, and he chooses to remain celibate.

``I`m more on the conservative side of gay Muslims,`` said Ibrahim, a researcher at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who is very active in mosque activities. ``I don`t want anything in the theology changed or even acceptance of any type for same-sex marriages.``

And then there are the Raja Rayeeses of the movement.

Rayees, a 33-year-old transsexual man from Pakistan, knows he will never be accepted in the Muslim community if it finds out about his surgical transformation from a woman to a man. But, he said, his aim is to please God, not his fellow Muslims.

``All my life I have lived with this guilt that I am living a lie, but my relationship with God is deeper and richer ever since I became true to myself,`` said Rayees, executive director of the newly formed Atlanta-based Southern Association for Gender Education.

``And in the end, isn`t that what matters?`` he said. ``When you face God on Judgment Day, the first question he`ll ask is not if you`re gay or how many sexual partners you had, but did you believe in me?``

FARANGI KUSH # 52

[[[``Mein khayal hooN kisi aur kaa,mujhay sochtaa koi aur hai.``

Ubaidullah Aleem?]]]

This beautiful nazam is of Saleem Kausar,not U.A. and Jagjit Singh has sung it . :)

Regards,

sa:)

Unsophisticatus_Maximus

I say again...Use your intellect. Use it to see the world around you and also in your discussions.

Since you are so desperately want to bring Islam in everything. How about reading the Surah called the bee. The gist of that parable is that like a bee, take the sweetness of life.

Islam is not all about rules and laws. Sure it is a part of it, and those laws if analysed, are about giving justice to all members of the community.

Islam is about humanity, love, care and tolerance for the whole humanity. It was never about who is right who is wrong. Prophet Muhammad`s (pbuh)

life is a perfect example.

I believe you don`t have anyone close in your life, who is gay or a lesbian. They are people are just like you and me. You would not deny human rights to your loved ones if they were gay. Would you?

In response to writer_77, who wrote:

``It is really interesting to note in this discussion that most people equate homosexuality with sex and sexual organs.``

Homosexuality is a *sexual * orientation. For example, there is nothing more to male homosexuality than the act of a male

having sex with another male, or the state of one male being attracted to other males.

Further, the homosexual community defines itself in terms of it`s sexuality. For example, look at over sexed Gay pride day parades, sex-themed gay dramas (produced by gays themselves). Even their political movements revolve, as they must, around

their sexual behavior. There is only one logical conclusion a reasonable person can make.

There is NOTHING exclusively unique to the homosexual `community` other than their sexuality. As we all know, they don`t

have their own language, traditions, etc. They just have their peculiar and, statistically speaking, abnormal behavior.

One must give credit for gay lobbyists and activists for being very successful in convincing liberal elements that their particular

behavior entitles them to some kind of special quasi ethnic status, viz-a-viz this fictitious notion of a ``gay community``. Heck, even our

legal codes and school curricula have been revised on behalf of this group of people. If only polygamists were so lucky...

But this status is superficial, it`s existence being explained by heterosexual sympathizers who see the obvious parallels between notions of free love and the particular ``cultural`` traits found within the homosexual community.

``What about love? The right that most hetrosexuals take for granted.``

Love is an emotion, not a right (hmmm...interesting how you`ve cast a basic human emotion in political terms...).

What`s more, homosexual behavior in the western world tends to mimic the heterosexual equivalent. Elsewhere in the world, where the

date-mate-marry paradigm of heterosexual relations isn`t prevalent, homosexual relationships tend to be little more than illicit

sexual encounters. In this sense, I think it is a more honest expression of homosexuality than the ``we`re very much like heterosexual`` nonsense we get on this side of the world.

``So if someone is a homosexual, it is wrong to have feelings for someone of same-sex?``

Morally, perhaps. However it`s rather in vogue now days to poo-poo morals. To be honest, in this case I will be willing to submit that perhaps a bit of understanding and sympathy for one`s ailment may be in order instead of a blind rejection.

However, this recent popularization of gay culture, and it`s associated political movement is a bit much to stomach. It`s stupid, to put it bluntly. `Hi, my name`s Joe, and I stick my penis inside another man`s anus. NOW GIVE ME MY RIGHTS!!!`. Give me a break.

``Enough with this homophobia.``

Oh, don`t even get me started on this stupid, stupid, stupid homophobia word...:)

Take care,

digit.

Well written piece of questionable content.

Ras

soysauce #46 Actually, I think Musharaff is quite a likable fellow - he was a hit even in India when he was there, remember? The Americans like him since he comes across as straight talking and good humored and does not take himself too seriously as many of our South Asian stuffed shirts (take our man Sattar e.g., or some of the Indian politicians) come across.

I agree though that a nation needs a dictator like a man needs a hole in the head - except sometimes a hole in the head is needed to get rid of some tumors. But even today, reading the press is quite free in Pakistan and Musharaff and the army are openly criticized and the cruel punishments that Zia introduced to intimidate opposition (unsuccessfully) are nowhere to be seen in Pakistan. The fact is that Pakistan simply cannot be ruled like a banana republic anymore, and Musharaff knows that while Zia did not and that is why Zia failed but with Musharaff one has hopes.

Re AnNy

You have homosexual friends who you know and love. What would happen if they decide to turn heterosexual? In my opinion ....... chaos.

Homosexuality is pretty much genetic.

I personally know people who refused to come out of their closet and ended up marrying straight women and caused nothing but misery to everyone around them. What would have been a better choice?

It is true that this concept is neither accepted by our religion nor our society but each person has his or her own special relationship with God. One doesn’t have to pray five times a day to be a good Muslim ........ similarly one doesn’t have to be straight to be one.

Re Bijli # 34

It is the Government of Pakistan that requires the consent of the woman and not Islam. Polygamy hurts. Ask women who go through it.

If the sole aim of a relationship is to produce kids then also condemn those who don’t marry or refuse to have kids just as vehemently.

binifer # 53

So that`s what it is all about: filing princess anNyz nails...

And here I was, thinking there were some deeper philosophical questions to be probed!!

LOL

Regards.

scout, anny,

Religiosity is not bigotry. And bigotry is never religiosity.

God, by His nature, can not be a bigot. If we read His word carefully, we will find love and compassion; not hatred and division. He embraces mankind, not repels its parts.

It is we who project our own prejudices, our own hatreds into His work; and then defend our black souls misusing the light of His Holy word.

Very few are given the wisdom to read His word with clean eyes, eyes not blinkered with past societal prejudices. These people can follow the Word closely, because they see in God`s work compassion and unity, not division and injustice.

Truly religious people who can rise clear above bigotry are an exceptionally rare and blessed breed. Their hearts are large enough to be completely loving and friendly with those whose doctrines they may not entirely agree with.

Just as we would not mind a gay person being friendly with a religious person even when the former does not accept the latter`s doctrines, the reverse ought to be true as well - we should respect a religious person`s freedom to disapprove of someone else`s lifestyle while still loving them to `pieces,` as anNy puts it.

We the less fortunate, those not blessed with as strong a faith, can only pray (if He still listens to evil men like us:)) that we have loving and giving men and women of faith, and not the far-more-common hatemongers pretending to be keepers of faith.

There is a very fine line between faith and bigotry, and we ought to be glad that there are some exceptional people of faith who clearly see the difference.

Best.

In reply to ``Unsophisticatus_Maximus``

If you have read Quran, the word ``lewdness``

is Zalamoon. Which indicates to cruelty.

Cruelty can be something that is forced upon.

eg. Rape, marital rape etc.

God also says that look at nature for your

answers. Scientifically it is a proven fact some

animals indulge in homosexual acts.

eg. Penguins, giraffes etc.

You can take the gist of the ayats or you can

be lakeer kaye fakir.

Don`t quote Quran to spread hate. If you feel

differently about things use apathy and

compassion. The basics of Quran.

anNy #51,

Hmmm, I can understand your stance. About alcohol and drugs, they inevitably cause harm. I dont` think you can say the same about homosexuality though.

Reply #: 48

scout......anNy

just one other thing, if your stance is based solely upon religion, then dont` be a hypocrite to your gay friends, tell them what you really think.]

Scouty,

No body is saying maltreatment of gay ,or drunkard,or fornicator,or any sinful act.You dont have rights or control over other ppl. `s choice atleast in this country ,you would not be endorsing or encouraging or supporting it by being civil with them.Do you tell all new acquentences,that you are beefeater,5 times prayer wala,haj performing ,possibly polygamy practicing,alcohol shunning,hijab wearing .....on the first day??

Reply #: 49

Vaneeza.......Re: Bijli #30

I never meant endorsing ``honour Killing`` literally.Only to the extent that infedility,illicit relation,& unfaithfullness ,BOTH for men & women is a crime in islamic jurisprudence .Although not agreeing with death penalty for it spl. in modern times of Gay & lesbian,we already are loose in our strictness.

#45

AnNy,

Thank you for your view regarding imposition of western values ,no matter how irrartional they may seem

``.....i too feel that a whole majority of people so thand with gay physical relations are this way because of the west and its general acceptance of this phenomenon...its hard accepting a women who wants to cover her head...paranoid jehadi babes then..but its all good when one man wants to bang another... ``

Iam not saying that eastern society ,is all good,& we have to improve foeticide,bride burning,dowry,inequality of castism,as in India ,too.Iam not for hatred either,i would never support ,hatred violence against gay,or prostitutes or drunk ,or druggy ,b/c we as ordinary ppl. are not assigned that responsibility.But we have to know for our self where we stand.

anNy:

{disclaimer: this is in no way to be insulting towards the gays i associate with (and who read chowk;))..youre complete dolls:0)}

haan na, who`ll shape our eyebrows without you beejoo and joetoo and hashee......and christ who`ll file princess anNyz nails then if we were to insult you `dolls`?

:)

:)

:)

:)

:)

:)

Scout,Zahra,Vaneeza & so many others.

Even the mentioning of such evils & vulgarities removes the shamefulness associated with them & somehow gives them credence.

An Amish gentleman once taught me that if something sinful & vulgar is committed by someone it is better to handle the matter in a hushed but with firm societal retribution.Making it a common-place happening gives it the semblance of a common occurence.

Rishvat in Pakistan has instead of a stigma become an honour badge---precisely because of a wistfulness associated with the ``corruption``.

Once the western thugs change their Qibla veryone will follow.Some folks acquire eduction but NEVER learning(which one can only acquire in ones` mother tongue.)

``Mein khayal hooN kisi aur kaa,mujhay sochtaa koi aur hai.``

Ubaidullah Aleem?

wassalaam

Scout apa

((``bachi, ur disclaimer and ur post do not match. if u want to love everyone, love their lifestyles as well (as long as they are not harming anyone). i for one have never heard of violence perpetrated by homosexuals. maybe a case here and there. but in most cases, they`ve made a big difference to society...just one other thing, if your stance is based solely upon religion, then dont` be a hypocrite to your gay friends, tell them what you really think.``))

all my gay friends know how i feel about their `lifestyle`..and because they respect my disgust as i do their ways, they dont indulge in any blatant displays of affection in front of me...:)

((``as for my stance on it, i don`t believe religion should be followed word for word, blindly.``))

i follow my religion word for word as best as i can..not `blindly` since i research, think about it and when satisfied go ahead with it...99 times out of 100 its satisfactory...my religion is in my opinion the right religion and i will not make excuses for it for anything, anybody or any misplaced concepts of acceptance as is the case with gays and lesbions who are all of a sudden as normal to acceptance for the world as is tweety to me...if prohpet luts kaum was destroyed for such a reason a kabillion years ago and the warning given to muslims is present in the quran, thats enough for me...i realize how un borgeise this is and overwhelmingly contrary to popular sentiments but thats the way i feel..no excuses

in no way do i hold my nonstraight friends in contemp nor have i attempted to insult them here on this board scouty...i love them to pieces ...but i feel it is wrong...just like i tell friends who indulge in excessive drinking and drugs its wrong, i tell friends who indulge in this kind of behaviour that its wrong too...

love,

anNy

YLH:

Please consider Zahra & Scouts` advice.

It might be ok to ``discuss`` as an intellectual exercise or just to prove a point but it does not & never will alter the prevailing objective conditions.

``Khirad kee ghuthhian suljhha chukaa mein

miray maulaa mujhay sahib junoon kar.``

A L L A M A Iqbal

What in your opinion would be the practical way to get us out of the morass we have got ourselves in.Perhaps you might have a greater job at hand than even the quaid could handle.As you know it is easy to make an omlette but quite another to reverse the process.

Or start with new eggs altogether?

``Yeh daur apnay Braheem kee talash mein hai

Sanam kadah hai jehaan---La Ilaha Il Allah.``

A L L A M A Iqbal

wassalaam

Re: Bijli #30

I completely agree with you bijli , its amazing how we are so dam/n conditioned that anything the west says make so much sense. Its a sign of how we, Asians, in my opinion, are still mentally colonized. Its sad that the slavery our fore fathers fought so hard to free us from, we now embrace ourselves so willingly.

Perhaps its time we took a stand for our own ideas(the right ones, which in my opinion don`t include honor killings! :P) and perhaps its time I had the right to express my discomfort with something thats alien to my religion and culture (although you won`t generally find me rooting for culture but thats an altogether different thing)

without being labelled as biased etc.

Wassalam

anNy,

just one other thing, if your stance is based solely upon religion, then dont` be a hypocrite to your gay friends, tell them what you really think.

as for my stance on it, i don`t believe religion should be followed word for word, blindly.

anNy #45,

bachi, ur disclaimer and ur post do not match. if u want to love everyone, love their lifestyles as well (as long as they are not harming anyone). i for one have never heard of violence perpetrated by homosexuals. maybe a case here and there.

but in most cases, they`ve made a big difference to society.

My post # 45

`women` was meant to be `woman`

Fuzair to Bijlee # 134

``Are you with me brother?``

erm..that will be sister..i think...

bijleejee im with you on this one..(the homo bit)...its freaky how good sensible people are okay with something thats a crime against nature as clearly stated by our religion...also as stated by the Louisiana State courts...``The Louisiana State court recently upheld the state`s sodomy law, holding that sodomy, no matter how private, inherently injured society`` ...i too feel that a whole majority of people so thand with gay physical relations are this way because of the west and its general acceptance of this phenomenon...its hard accepting a women who wants to cover her head...paranoid jehadi babes then..but its all good when one man wants to bang another...

disclaimer: this is in no way to be insulting towards the gays i associate with (and who read chowk;))..youre complete dolls:0)

Reply #: 42

Fuzair.....Re: Bijli #134

#34 Bijli

``Honour killing is nothing but punishment for infidelity.In many countries Infidelity is criminal activities just as rape,assault,indecent exposure,peeping Tom,ppornography ,incest,etc.

May be killing orcapital punishment is too harsh for modern standards ,But what is wrong in having DETERENT against someone demeaning family or husbands/WIVES honour.Its deterent only.``

Fuzair,

If you misunderstood my post as exclusively against women,i `m sorry .Plz read my post .Peeping Tom,Pronography perpetretors are mostly men.Incest are mostly men but again for clarification a woman can be perpetretor of incest.

NOW you agree !!

Uff Farzana kaisi dukhti hui rugg pay haath rekha hay, jiskay wajood ka ilm bhi nahi tha: Aah childhood memories. ``Merey Bachpan Kay Din Kitnay Achey Thay Din.`` Life just engulfs us with responsibilities so much, that we conveniently forget all, that used to matter to us. Sad but true. Thanks for the reminder though. :)

Happy Ramzan to you and all...Friday, November 16 is the first roza out here in Canada. Apni duaoN mein yaad rekhye ga.

Khair-andaish

Kiran

Re: Bijli #134

Just a question. If honour killings are to preserve family honour, why are only the women killed? Since it takes two to tango, so to speak, why not kill the men? Since its a proven fact that men are the more intelligent, more rational and more capable gender, why punish the weak women for the crime?

I say we stop punishing the mentally deficient (after all, it takes 2 women to equal 1 man in a court of Islamic law) for the crimes of the mentally able and start killing only the men who dishonour?

Are you with me brother?

Three sad truths.

1 religious and social ocasions always been commercialized according to prevailing commerce practice of that time. When there was less commerce in society, there was less commerce in festivals.

2 meaning which any person sees in any thing depends on the person. Same person changes meaning over time. Growing older, everyone become more cynical about everything. Nothing is what was in childhood. Parents who seemed godlike when we were toddlers appear old, weak, sometime holding wrong views. Trees, leaves, flowers, amazing when we were children are not amazing when we are fifty years old.

3 Trillium is right-farazan is total taker. She asks, asks, asks, for more more more but can not give anything. She expects understanding but no understanding she wants to give to others. She does not seem normal.

It is really interesting to note in this discussion that most people equate homosexuality with sex and sexual organs. What about love? The right that most hetrosexuals take for granted. So if someone is a homosexual, it is wrong to have feelings for someone of same-sex? And then why bring Quran and Islam into it? The most fundamental lesson of Quran is tolerance. And the discussion of which organ should be put where is useless. Quran should be taken in light of cultural and historical context. The world has progressed a lot. Pre-marital could cause a lot of complications in those times. Now we have the pill and condoms. Quran tells us to use our intellect.

For example, Quran does not condemn slavery. It tells us to treat them respect. So does that mean muslims can have slaves?

Quran does condemn behaviour that destruct the family structure. So if two gay guys want to have family, it should not be anyone`s business or problem as to where they put their private organs.

It is a vicious circle. First society does not allow the right to get married then say they have pre-marital sex. So what should gays do? wait for hetrosexual`s special permission so they can get on with living their lives. Quran also condemns cruelty.

Enough with this homophobia.

Over 70 countries consider homosexuality a crime

Buenos Aires, June 23

More than 70 countries consider homosexuality a crime and 30 of those violate the human rights of homosexuals, Amnesty International said in a report published on Friday.

The report, entitled Crimes of hate, conspiracy of silence, focused on 30 countries where human rights abuses against homosexuals have been documented. It was released in Argentina, where homosexuality is legal but homosexuals are still persecuted,



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the group said.

``All over the world gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals and transvestites are at risk, especially of being victimised by human rights violations because of their sexual identity,`` Ignacio Sainz, one of the authors of the report, told journalists.

Amnesty International blamed the Argentine government for the February death of a homosexual in police custody.

The report included information about the persecution of homosexuals and transvestites in Mexico and Ecuador as well as countries in Africa and Eastern Europe.

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Shah Reply # 36

``Im fan of quran,b/c like many ,i feel quran is far ahead of time,even 1500 yrs after mohommed,it is stil the most modern in inconcepts & i think will be for many more years before even scientists could refute koran,on scientific basis.``

u and me both... :)

rgds,

Charmed

re: Bijli # 35

A great post! I appreciate your calm response to my deliberately sarcastic comments. I am feeling a bit guilty now :)

Bijli, here are my thoughts on this. I am myself a proud Indian. And I am deeply deeply deeply in love with the world`s best woman, who loves her country. Together we are heirs to two of the world`s greatest civilizations ever. So I know exactly where you are coming from when you point out that we dont need to run to the west for every inspiration. Only, I try to follow the dictum that Prophet Mohammad is said to have laid out: To seek knowledge, one should go to China. China is not necessarily smarter or better. But if that is the most effective way of learning something, so be it.

What do you say? I would like to hear your views on this.

PS: My friend just told me that she agrees with you. Now, I am in trouble :(

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Reply #: 31

Eklavya.............re: Bijli # 30

``...............Aap bilkul theek farmaa rahi hain.``

I know thats a sarcastic remark.But knowing you from other posts ,you are kind,understanding person,& i would just register my opinion unlike my usual self.

I dont comment about other communities practices ,because i am not bound by that & its not upto me right, morally as well as practically (noexperience of it)to say about castism,dowry,

Ofcourse when general crime like bride burning or domestic violence or foeticides of female foetus is the case i condemn it but i dont have to go to west to know that.

``I am off to defending my honorable practices of caste system, sati, bride burning, female infanticide, and general hatred toward one and all.``

Do you want to tell me you look to west to know ``general hatred toward one another & al``

In Islam mohommed directed if after an altercation you were to maintain ill will for more than 3 days ,you would be an offender.I dont have to listen to some u.s. president about neighbourliness & friendship.

``Why let western hegemony de-Indianize/de-Pakistanize us with silly ideas like tolerance, rationality and equality``

Yes , i dont think west has anything new ,only what was translated from 1000yrs of arabic literature during the rennaisence

Reply #: 33

Apparition.........Re Bijli

Polygamy hurts

Honour Killings hurt

Homosexuality DOES NOT hurt.

No polygamy doesnt hurt if its by consent of women,as it is in Islam & for westerner accredition hungry ,in Utah it is prevalent as much as 35% of couples but no biody voluntarily reports so itas not documented .

Honour killing is nothing but punishment for infidelity.In many countries Infidelity is criminal activities just as rape,assault,indecent exposure,peeping Tom,ppornography ,incest,etc.

May be killing orcapital punishment is too harsh for modern standards ,But what is wrong in having DETERENT against someone demeaning family or husbands honour.Its deterent only.

Homosexuality does hurt.If god had created man for peneteration he would have given him resceptecle for them like women.

If sex was only for PLEASURE ,there would be no sperm & ovary created.

A$$ hole is created for faecal matters not anyother use.

You mean to say god is wrong & these so called 10 % of population that liberals keep chiming is right.!!

I am not for cruel & unusual punishment but human do need detterents & incentives to behave right.If some one deviates its not right to just let him go astray in the name of individual rights.

Just why should ,sraight family man take the trouble of raising family for future workforce to serve these antifamily antireproducuing life style who only want the pleasure of sex without the responsibility of raising future of our world,

Polygamy &Honour kiling only hurt when law is broken

Homosexuality is putting round peg in a square hole .rest is simple common sense.it cant be harmless .Not from latest incresing incidence exclusively in gays of AIDs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re Bijli

Polygamy hurts

Honour Killings hurt

Homosexuality DOES NOT hurt.

According to the in-depth research done by the famous Chinese anthropologist, Tui Shui Lee, and my barber confirms it, the gay phenomenon has a common denominator. All gays are molested as children. According to Tui Shui, there is a reason that not all molested children turn into gays; the reason according to her is that only those children who later develop a liking of this molestation in the later stages of life turn into gays.

Now there are new theories coming out as the gay phenomenon is gaining popularity/notoriety. A team of anthropologists discovered a species of monkeys in the jungles of Madagascar, who are bisexual (monkeys and not scientists). According to them (scientists) that was the most peaceful bunch of monkeys they had ever seen. Whereas any other species of monkeys are pretty violent; take for example the species called Bajrang Dal. Anyway, the scientists have concluded that the bisexuality brings peace in society.

My barber disagrees with both studies. He says that this gay thing is anti-human, anti-social, anti-family, and anti-humanity. I listen to him quietly because the big words that he uses impress me and the other reason is that he usually have a sharp razor in his hand when he delivers his speech. The other day I hardly managed to save my ear when during one of his passionate anti-gay speeches he swung his razor like a sword. He was saying that these people (gays) are destroying the very fabric that binds the humanity together into a society. They are after the beautiful relationship between a man and a woman that causes the miracle of birth to happen. He also said that human babies are not puppies that one can give to his friends and family and probably a nursery. I wanted to interrupt him and tell him that now one can get sperms and eggs from banks and miracles happen in test tubes, but when I saw him swinging his razor, I chose to keep quiet.

And I thanked God when he started the last phase of his anti-gay speech after wiping the foam off my face and putting the razor back into cup. But he was more furious than ever. He said ``Now what the hell is the next? Bestiality? Oh God! Take my life before the day comes when these gays will be claiming that the love between man and his donkey is his personal business``

I wanted to tell him that I have never heard a goat say `no` and there are people in the largest democracy in the world who cure their STDs by having sex with their donkeys; but then I saw his razor and his bloodied eyes and stepped out of his shop.

re: Bijli # 30

Aap bilkul theek farmaa rahi hain.

I am off to defending my honorable practices of caste system, sati, bride burning, female infanticide, and general hatred toward one and all.

Why let western hegemony de-Indianize/de-Pakistanize us with silly ideas like tolerance, rationality and equality?

Reply #: 24

``scout.....Vaneeza #23,

If some heterosexuals can be seen as ``innocent`` why can`t some homosexuals? Is there some underlying bias or prejudice behind your statement? ``

Scout,

See the subtl way western ideas always reign superior.If homosexuality was a Non western ,lets say an Islamic practice ,like Polygamy ,i bet Scout,so enamoured by the overwhelming permissiveness of eurocentricity,calmly coy up to homosexuality??Would you have embraced it?Do you embrace polygamy b/c it is part of your religous edicts?Why are you so timid & coward to stand up to the western stupidity?

If nothing ,stand upto to those westerners who find incomprehensible eastern practices of arranged marriage,circumcision,purdah,hijab,honour killing,....Mind you i m not talking of missuse of these as i am not talking about aberration & deviant homosexuals.

Sexual love & OTHER loves(sisterly,brotherly motherly,friendly)are different ,It is different right from the beginning so much so that minds like freud couldnt seperate them ,although many have since this austrian psychologist first espounded oedipus complex.Yes even small boys `puppy love` may not be so if you detect some clinical signs astutely.

There is nothing innocent about Homosexuality.That doesnt make it criminal in the present law but if you can binge vomit,to look like kate Moss,is right ,implant silica into your breast to look like buxom is right,if sperm donation is right .....then yes homosexuality ,would signal a hall mark of our scientology as religion.

I didn`t mean to offend and no I have no bias against gay men, I`m quite indifferent.

I really was curious cuz its just a different combination of words.

Dear Abysmal #22:

Thanks for the elaboration(or explanation).

It was really nice of you.

I am sure FARANGI_KUSH would appreciate this too:)

Regards,

Taimur.

Abysmal #22:

Thanks for the elaboration(or explanation)..

It was really nice of you..

I am sure Farangi_Kush would appreciate it too:)

Regards.

Taimur.

abysmal #22, ``As far as I`m concerned, this story is mild compared to the usual happenings in the city.``

It`s mild compared to what`s posted on Chowk sometimes too. I agree with Latif CHappu, this story did not deserve the `adult content` sticker.

By the way, I hope you changed these names around, whatever happened to respecting another person`s privacy?

Vaneeza #23,

If some heterosexuals can be seen as ``innocent`` why can`t some homosexuals? Is there some underlying bias or prejudice behind your statement? Would you not call a young boy loving another young boy innocent puppy love? Why is our society so limited in it`s thought with regards to homosexuals.

hmmm..`innocent homosexuality`

that sounds like an oxymoron..is it really or is there such a thing?

Re: Chowk Staff

Your `mature content` warning was very disappointing. It implies that while you will allow bawdy descriptions of heterosexual sex to go untagged, you consider the mere mention of a homosexual relationship pornographic.

Do you consider mentions of homosexual relationships pornographic?

I for one, took the story for what it was,eliminating the Indian/Paki implications, but would have preferred if the author had built a better understanding of the characters...otherwise i liked the idea.Calling back home was quite natural, if we take out the fact that it was to his mom (which as someone has suggested signifies the character to be a momma`s boy).Its natural, because whenever in trouble, or we are feeling low, we turn towards our roots.Anyways thats my two cents:))

-Hana

Aeisha

((AnNy, What are you doing with your Aunty & Uncle Zohaibs Poster?))

:P

mines now somewhere in the store gathering dust..was pasted to my bathroom door for a good 5 years..no New Kids on the Block for my generation..Nazia and Zohaib were the bommmmm....took out all my old tapes and c.d.s after reading this piece...nothing like dosti and pyaar dya gallan...nothing...

taimurmalik:#16

Are you thinking what I am thinking?

``Akhir e shub deed kay quabil thhee Bismil kee turupp

subh-e duum koi agar balaa e baam aayaa tO kiyaa.``

A L L A M A Iqbal.

wassalaam

How i wish that throwing a diamond out of the window could put an end to ones misery. It is the memories and not gifts that haunt us. But getting rid of stuff is definitely an indication that one is at least trying to let go.

It was not a bad read. In Pakistan where being open about your sexuality is not an option, the miserable marriages of gay men are becoming a serious problem.

Whenever i come across a good looking gay guy i can`t help but sigh ......WHAT A WASTE!!!!!!!

hmmmm..

mind telling what the `A` in A Bismil stand for;)

What crap!

This piece should in one of the garbage bags mentioned in it!

dummm musssst qalander dharrr rragrrra

aNNy

#11

O Preety Kauriyay:``Uthhay ee tay numaish laggee see``

That is exactly where the poster exhibition took place.

dummm mussst qalander dharrr rrragrrra

((He thought of his room back in Karachi, all clean and ready for him, with it`s huge poster of Nazia and Zoheb Hassan still pasted to the door))

how big? cant be bigger than mine

;-)

Hi, A Bismil

welcome to Chowk,

You have surely picked a strong theme for

your story.

To positively criticize your story, there are a few

points that can help:

1. In some paragraphs you show anxiety,

shame, pain etc in your protagonist and in

those occasions the reader is with you.

But in other insistances you ``tell`` alot. You

don`t let the protagonist show what it is going

on. You show internal and external action and

the readers will react. Let the readers figure

few things themselves.

2. Your characters felt less human and more

rigid. Let them be flexible. Show dimensions.

Give more background knowledge. That could

include character`s choices, family life, the

character`s take on life. Don`t limit your

characters to the mold of Gay. And show

what is at stake for the protagonist. There is

always something gained and something lost.

What is at stake in this story?

I think your beginning was powerful by

establishing the conflict right away.

Keep writing and be your best judge.

cheers!

writer_77

I like it...it has a very optimistic ending though, wasn`t quite expecting it.

re: Fuzair # 4

``Is the moral of this story supposed to be that returning home to Pakistan will save one from the moral corruption of America and the evil Indians who prey upon the innocent Pakistanis?``

Oh my friend, that is exactly the feeling I got too...whether the author was consciously sending that message or not, I dont know!

The implication, if intended, shook me up.

When, O`Lord, when will all this end???? Why are we bent upon killing, destroying everything that can be good and beautiful between our two nations...why old hatreds insist upon torching every new lush green crop that the two may together raise and bring to fruition??

We need young men and women to fight these old ways of thinking, not perpetuate them.

Friends, if this comes across as paranoia, please forgive me....I have good reason to be jittery.

I hope this didn`t really happen but I suspect it did. Desi men tend to be momma`s boys and don`t mind having an affair here that only they know can`t last.

three words to get a story to be printed in Chowk:

sex, Indian, and Pakistani

Nice Story!

Is the moral of this story supposed to be that returning home to Pakistan will save one from the moral corruption of America and the evil Indians who prey upon the innocent Pakistanis? Is there any point to this story other than the fact that Rahul is Indian and Ali is Pakistani? And that Ali is good/naive and Rahul is evil/manipulative?

Don`t we already know that all Indians are inherently evil and cannot be trusted and that the US is the home of all sin?

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ummm, what was the ``adult content warning`` for?

Could have been a more interesting story if the characters of Ali and Rahul were not so superficially drawn. Does Ali or Rahul ever get to grow in those two years? How?

Ali is young! and also innocent? Laws of Desire?