White Charade
Urstruly June 22, 2001
#218 Posted by anarayan on July 8, 2001 2:37:34 am
Urstruly,
``Does philosophy of Karma negate God? If it does, then who or what supervises the mechanism?``
I wish I knew! Good question though.
Karma as you know is basically a cause-effect thing. You reap what you sow. Buddhists define it more precisely - do what you will, you cannot escape the consequences of your actions.
Everything around us seems to obey the law of cause and effect. Hindus define that `THE God` is not bound by this law. The author of the RigVeda clearly says that he has NO idea how this first causeless being came into existance. However, the lower Gods (Indra,Surya,Vayu,etc) ARE bound by this law.
Buddhists are more pragmatic. The Buddha denied the hindu concept of soul, but agreed on the Karma concept. Why care or waste time/energy over whether there is a God, or who implements the Karma principle, they say. Only be concerned that THE LAW (Karma) does exist and you cannot escape it.
Isn`t that familiar? We build skyscrappers, bridges, planes and rockets applying the gravitational principle. We don`t ask who supervises gravity? (Well, at least those of us who are not theoret-physicists!)
Thats my 2-c.
regards,
``Does philosophy of Karma negate God? If it does, then who or what supervises the mechanism?``
I wish I knew! Good question though.
Karma as you know is basically a cause-effect thing. You reap what you sow. Buddhists define it more precisely - do what you will, you cannot escape the consequences of your actions.
Everything around us seems to obey the law of cause and effect. Hindus define that `THE God` is not bound by this law. The author of the RigVeda clearly says that he has NO idea how this first causeless being came into existance. However, the lower Gods (Indra,Surya,Vayu,etc) ARE bound by this law.
Buddhists are more pragmatic. The Buddha denied the hindu concept of soul, but agreed on the Karma concept. Why care or waste time/energy over whether there is a God, or who implements the Karma principle, they say. Only be concerned that THE LAW (Karma) does exist and you cannot escape it.
Isn`t that familiar? We build skyscrappers, bridges, planes and rockets applying the gravitational principle. We don`t ask who supervises gravity? (Well, at least those of us who are not theoret-physicists!)
Thats my 2-c.
regards,
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#217 Posted by krashid on July 7, 2001 7:25:14 pm
Urstruly #
Ideas are not sold.
It needs struggle.
Even for as clear ideas as Earth revolving around sun, people have been burned at stake, hanged and threatened.
What will you say for ideas which cannot be tested in laboraties. Heretic Thoughts?
Ideas are not sold.
It needs struggle.
Even for as clear ideas as Earth revolving around sun, people have been burned at stake, hanged and threatened.
What will you say for ideas which cannot be tested in laboraties. Heretic Thoughts?
#216 Posted by shankar on July 7, 2001 4:02:38 pm
URstruly,
#200
Interesting theory. I`m not sure if I agree with some of the points.
First of all,its a well established fact that suicide rates increase as you go closer to the North pole. Extensive research has been done in this area. Rates of Clinical depression (or Major Depression) increases as you move North. Canada has a higher suicide rate (& higher rates of depression) than the continental US. Alaska has a higher rate than the Continental US.
The results of several independant studies have shown that depression rates are very high because of LACK OF SUNLIGHT. This fact is well established & accepted by the WHO, AMA, APA etc. Also, in the winter, the rays of the sun strike the atomsphere at a more acute angle than in the summer; so part of the spectrum gets bounced of into outer space. There is a well established treatment called phototherapy (full spectrum lights which simulate natural sunlight)--which DOES help tremendously.
Being a fellow Michigander, you will know our winters are interminable. Most days are cloudy & ``gloomy``. So, I dont think suicide rates have anything to do with tangible material assets.
Scandinavian countries are some of the most egalitarian societies in the world. Their belief is that the welfare of society, in general, is more important than that of the individual. So they have combined the best aspects of communism & capitalism & made it into a perfect welfare society. A country like Sweden has an excellent standard of living, there is no gap between rich & poor, everyone is guaranteed free education & health care (of very good quality), there is very little crime & tremendous safety nets if you become disabled & unable to work. They havent gone to war for centuries. A great testiment to a people who descended from the Vikings, a bloodthirsty race. Yet a Swede is 5 times more likely to comit suicide than a Hiatian--go figure:)
When I was doing my residency, an Iranian resident told me that in Iran there is the same amount of infidelity, homosexuality, rape, crime & murder as the West. He would tell me how doctors in his medical school would screw nurses & patients. The only difference was that nobody ever talked about it openly. I can say the same thing about India.
We THINK that the East is morally superior in some way over the West. I dont think so. Homosexuality, infidelity, murder, rape & prostitution was present in the East long long before Westerners arrived.
Let me tell you, serial killings happen in India & Pakistan just about as frequently as the West. The only difference is that nobody publicises it & we prefer to shove those embarrasing facts under the carpet. The Soviet Union trumpetted how there was no crime in the perfect worker`s paradise. O yeah! now we know better.
#200
Interesting theory. I`m not sure if I agree with some of the points.
First of all,its a well established fact that suicide rates increase as you go closer to the North pole. Extensive research has been done in this area. Rates of Clinical depression (or Major Depression) increases as you move North. Canada has a higher suicide rate (& higher rates of depression) than the continental US. Alaska has a higher rate than the Continental US.
The results of several independant studies have shown that depression rates are very high because of LACK OF SUNLIGHT. This fact is well established & accepted by the WHO, AMA, APA etc. Also, in the winter, the rays of the sun strike the atomsphere at a more acute angle than in the summer; so part of the spectrum gets bounced of into outer space. There is a well established treatment called phototherapy (full spectrum lights which simulate natural sunlight)--which DOES help tremendously.
Being a fellow Michigander, you will know our winters are interminable. Most days are cloudy & ``gloomy``. So, I dont think suicide rates have anything to do with tangible material assets.
Scandinavian countries are some of the most egalitarian societies in the world. Their belief is that the welfare of society, in general, is more important than that of the individual. So they have combined the best aspects of communism & capitalism & made it into a perfect welfare society. A country like Sweden has an excellent standard of living, there is no gap between rich & poor, everyone is guaranteed free education & health care (of very good quality), there is very little crime & tremendous safety nets if you become disabled & unable to work. They havent gone to war for centuries. A great testiment to a people who descended from the Vikings, a bloodthirsty race. Yet a Swede is 5 times more likely to comit suicide than a Hiatian--go figure:)
When I was doing my residency, an Iranian resident told me that in Iran there is the same amount of infidelity, homosexuality, rape, crime & murder as the West. He would tell me how doctors in his medical school would screw nurses & patients. The only difference was that nobody ever talked about it openly. I can say the same thing about India.
We THINK that the East is morally superior in some way over the West. I dont think so. Homosexuality, infidelity, murder, rape & prostitution was present in the East long long before Westerners arrived.
Let me tell you, serial killings happen in India & Pakistan just about as frequently as the West. The only difference is that nobody publicises it & we prefer to shove those embarrasing facts under the carpet. The Soviet Union trumpetted how there was no crime in the perfect worker`s paradise. O yeah! now we know better.
#215 Posted by Urstruly on July 7, 2001 8:06:10 am
anarayan
Does philosophy of Karma negate God? If it does, then who or what supervises the mechanism?
Does philosophy of Karma negate God? If it does, then who or what supervises the mechanism?
#214 Posted by tahmed321 on July 7, 2001 6:29:43 am
anNy #206 It is indeed sad how Islam has been abused by the mullahs...it is incredible how these individual - who are no better than common criminals - get away with their pretensions of being part of the CSG (Civil Service of God) or the GAF (God`s Armed Forces). But this too shall pass...time is against them.
#213 Posted by anarayan on July 7, 2001 6:29:43 am
Re: # 213
``Though our mind has been conditioned differently because of our upbringing but if you conciously try to put yourself in the shoes of a ``non-beleiver`` the picture that you get is pretty scary. The mere idea that you are nothing but merely a particular combination of atoms, which happened to arrange themselves, because of an unexplained accident-may take your night`s sleep away. Then it all becomes so pointless, so meaningless, and so ruthless. There has to be a meaning, a purpose, and a direction to the life.``
Urstruly,
Why not go one step further? Why not see the appalling cruelty and unmeasurable suffering in the world - and use same logic to conclude that the God who made all this must be a sadist supreme.
Only escape from above is to believe in re-incarnation and karma (the baby has AIDS becuz of sins comited in previous life). But that would make you a kafir.
See any way out???
regards,
``Though our mind has been conditioned differently because of our upbringing but if you conciously try to put yourself in the shoes of a ``non-beleiver`` the picture that you get is pretty scary. The mere idea that you are nothing but merely a particular combination of atoms, which happened to arrange themselves, because of an unexplained accident-may take your night`s sleep away. Then it all becomes so pointless, so meaningless, and so ruthless. There has to be a meaning, a purpose, and a direction to the life.``
Urstruly,
Why not go one step further? Why not see the appalling cruelty and unmeasurable suffering in the world - and use same logic to conclude that the God who made all this must be a sadist supreme.
Only escape from above is to believe in re-incarnation and karma (the baby has AIDS becuz of sins comited in previous life). But that would make you a kafir.
See any way out???
regards,
#212 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2001 3:56:01 pm
Shirin & ANnY
Ladies plz dont forget the fried fish of Manora Isle this time or my heart will really be broken. And plz do not blaspheme the mangoes. I have heard that Hindus even have a bhajan to celebrate the glory of mangoes; It starts with
``Hari aam; Hari aam``
Ladies plz dont forget the fried fish of Manora Isle this time or my heart will really be broken. And plz do not blaspheme the mangoes. I have heard that Hindus even have a bhajan to celebrate the glory of mangoes; It starts with
``Hari aam; Hari aam``
#211 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2001 3:50:24 pm
Krashid # 204
Amen. But the hard part is that it us the people, the humans who must be sold to this idea first. Everything is possible only then.
Amen. But the hard part is that it us the people, the humans who must be sold to this idea first. Everything is possible only then.
#210 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2001 3:46:57 pm
Hobbyty # 203
Though our mind has been conditioned differently because of our upbringing but if you conciously try to put yourself in the shoes of a ``non-beleiver`` the picture that you get is pretty scary. The mere idea that you are nothing but merely a particular combination of atoms, which happened to arrange themselves, because of an unexplained accident-may take your night`s sleep away. Then it all becomes so pointless, so meaningless, and so ruthless. There has to be a meaning, a purpose, and a direction to the life. Society and community must take precedence over an individual. If you choose to tread on that path then the chances of going astray are great-and every mistake is lethal.
I wonder what nagged Nietzsche so much so that he took his own life.
Though our mind has been conditioned differently because of our upbringing but if you conciously try to put yourself in the shoes of a ``non-beleiver`` the picture that you get is pretty scary. The mere idea that you are nothing but merely a particular combination of atoms, which happened to arrange themselves, because of an unexplained accident-may take your night`s sleep away. Then it all becomes so pointless, so meaningless, and so ruthless. There has to be a meaning, a purpose, and a direction to the life. Society and community must take precedence over an individual. If you choose to tread on that path then the chances of going astray are great-and every mistake is lethal.
I wonder what nagged Nietzsche so much so that he took his own life.
#209 Posted by Urstruly on July 6, 2001 3:35:24 pm
Farangi_Kush # 208
Thank you, Farangi_Kush for your critical note.
You said:
``Your ending on the word charade is neat.The only thing that nagged me was the context of it.As part of the paragraph it is,it seems to be in the context of the central idea of the paragraph rather than the incident.``
In a restricted sense you are right. The police officer was thinking about his family when he was having this jabbing notion.
I myself had this jabbing feeling since the time I submitted this story that the last sentence should have been rephrased and it should have been made more ``comprehensive``. There were two restrictions:
1. I was fighting hard to cut the number of paragraphs and words to a minimum to stay with in the format of a short story.
2. I slacked; thinking that, some of it should be left on the good judgement of the reader. That is one risk one has to take while writing short stories.
Anyhow, thanks very much, your comments will help me improve on my next work-I think I will have to fight the pains of parturition hard.
Thank you, Farangi_Kush for your critical note.
You said:
``Your ending on the word charade is neat.The only thing that nagged me was the context of it.As part of the paragraph it is,it seems to be in the context of the central idea of the paragraph rather than the incident.``
In a restricted sense you are right. The police officer was thinking about his family when he was having this jabbing notion.
I myself had this jabbing feeling since the time I submitted this story that the last sentence should have been rephrased and it should have been made more ``comprehensive``. There were two restrictions:
1. I was fighting hard to cut the number of paragraphs and words to a minimum to stay with in the format of a short story.
2. I slacked; thinking that, some of it should be left on the good judgement of the reader. That is one risk one has to take while writing short stories.
Anyhow, thanks very much, your comments will help me improve on my next work-I think I will have to fight the pains of parturition hard.
#208 Posted by anNy on July 6, 2001 2:21:58 pm
shirinjee:
((Jub next time mixed plate khana ho, to humaree taraf sey aik chamcha zaroor kha lijiyae ga !))
Shirinjee…aik chamcha? Mainae aap kee yaad mae last week doe pooree mixed plate aur paanee puri kee plateain khaaleen…dilpasand chaat in bahadurabad…aur total upset tummy hogya next day :0( as for our food interacts, loge jootae maarain gae agar wapas shooro hogaye humn doe ;) how about you mail me whenever you can…(annythedud@yahoo.com)…we will indulge in limitless, unbridled gluttony…
aap ka darakht bohat hee haseen mizaaj ka lagta hae (humor me please…I`m trying to talk as saleeqae sae as I can) merae ghar par bhi bohat lambae aur barae darakht hain jo merae grandfather kehtae thae 1939 sae hain jab ghar banna…merae khayaal sae woh mazaak karrae thae…but they`re lovely…beautiful huge big oaks…theres a toota phoota tree house on one that has the greatest collection of comics and barbie dolls sarofying inside it…aap jab aogae tau mae aap ko uppar charh kar dikhaoon gee
oodles and poodles of love,
anNy
((Jub next time mixed plate khana ho, to humaree taraf sey aik chamcha zaroor kha lijiyae ga !))
Shirinjee…aik chamcha? Mainae aap kee yaad mae last week doe pooree mixed plate aur paanee puri kee plateain khaaleen…dilpasand chaat in bahadurabad…aur total upset tummy hogya next day :0( as for our food interacts, loge jootae maarain gae agar wapas shooro hogaye humn doe ;) how about you mail me whenever you can…(annythedud@yahoo.com)…we will indulge in limitless, unbridled gluttony…
aap ka darakht bohat hee haseen mizaaj ka lagta hae (humor me please…I`m trying to talk as saleeqae sae as I can) merae ghar par bhi bohat lambae aur barae darakht hain jo merae grandfather kehtae thae 1939 sae hain jab ghar banna…merae khayaal sae woh mazaak karrae thae…but they`re lovely…beautiful huge big oaks…theres a toota phoota tree house on one that has the greatest collection of comics and barbie dolls sarofying inside it…aap jab aogae tau mae aap ko uppar charh kar dikhaoon gee
oodles and poodles of love,
anNy
#207 Posted by Klutz on July 6, 2001 4:00:44 am
You have a way with words. I felt like everything was happening in front of my own eyes. A very good crime story. I enjoyed every bit of it (reading i mean! )
#206 Posted by ShirinAhmed on July 6, 2001 4:00:44 am
anNY # 206,
[[``Shirinjee!! hullo:0)
Kaisee hain aap? the children, mian and tree outside? hope all four are well…:0)`` ]]
Yes the Garry Oak is doing very well.Is the oldest one amongst us, tou zara hum ko har tarah sey us ko khush rakhna partha hai.It is spreading its branches all over, in whatever direction it chooses, aur hum mana qataie nahin kar saktey.Hum to us sey yehee kehtey hain, jitna phailna hai phail lo !Waisey woh hai, behad shouqeen misaj.Aisey apney theniyoon ko aisey pehlaiey hwaie hai, jaisey key apnee mehbooba sey pheli bar mila ho.
Ab to yahan pey municipality waloon ney bhi by law nikal diya hai, key hum bina ijazaat us ko choo nahin saktey .... bahut mazey main hai MashaAllah.
Magar aik bat hai... zara burha hota ja raha hai, lehaza oct- march zara lamba nap leney laga hai.
Mian aur bachey bhi Allah key Fazal sey khairiat sey hain .Apkey poochney ka shukriya .
Jub next time mixed plate khana ho, to humaree taraf sey aik chamcha zaroor kha lijiyae ga ! he he ... how i miss those food talks anNY !
Dheroon dher pyar,
sa:)
[[``Shirinjee!! hullo:0)
Kaisee hain aap? the children, mian and tree outside? hope all four are well…:0)`` ]]
Yes the Garry Oak is doing very well.Is the oldest one amongst us, tou zara hum ko har tarah sey us ko khush rakhna partha hai.It is spreading its branches all over, in whatever direction it chooses, aur hum mana qataie nahin kar saktey.Hum to us sey yehee kehtey hain, jitna phailna hai phail lo !Waisey woh hai, behad shouqeen misaj.Aisey apney theniyoon ko aisey pehlaiey hwaie hai, jaisey key apnee mehbooba sey pheli bar mila ho.
Ab to yahan pey municipality waloon ney bhi by law nikal diya hai, key hum bina ijazaat us ko choo nahin saktey .... bahut mazey main hai MashaAllah.
Magar aik bat hai... zara burha hota ja raha hai, lehaza oct- march zara lamba nap leney laga hai.
Mian aur bachey bhi Allah key Fazal sey khairiat sey hain .Apkey poochney ka shukriya .
Jub next time mixed plate khana ho, to humaree taraf sey aik chamcha zaroor kha lijiyae ga ! he he ... how i miss those food talks anNY !
Dheroon dher pyar,
sa:)
#205 Posted by farangi_kush on July 5, 2001 8:26:37 pm
URSTRULY:
Due to the content of the subject matter,I kind of rushed through the narrative.It was not easy for me to hang around the `scene` and I have still not been able to find the right `time` for it.
Your ending on the word charade is neat.The only thing that nagged me was the context of it.As part of the paragraph it is,it seems to be in the context of the central idea of the paragraph rather than the incident.
Maybe I am wrong in thinking that that particular(last) line deserved a short final paragraph unto itself.
What do you think?
WASSALAAM.
Due to the content of the subject matter,I kind of rushed through the narrative.It was not easy for me to hang around the `scene` and I have still not been able to find the right `time` for it.
Your ending on the word charade is neat.The only thing that nagged me was the context of it.As part of the paragraph it is,it seems to be in the context of the central idea of the paragraph rather than the incident.
Maybe I am wrong in thinking that that particular(last) line deserved a short final paragraph unto itself.
What do you think?
WASSALAAM.
#204 Posted by temporal on July 5, 2001 11:19:49 am
Shirin Ahmed #202
[.. `t`... aap key Kabutar khairiat sey to hain na ? zara pigeon hole mein jhank leijiyae ga ... jub bhi moqa milae...]
---checked...nothing there from you...have you been using the correct address? it is temporal3...the last two an ‘l’ and a ‘3’...not # 13...khair...if you visit it now
http://chowk.com/people/Tools/cc_printhome.cgi?temporal
I have put up Word Waves (Mauj-e-Alfaz) for dost-mittar..aur agar aap ko pasand aaye tou tareef kay zyadah talib aur mustahiq ghaliban urstruly hain...oon tak daad pohancha dijiaye:)...
lve,
t
[.. `t`... aap key Kabutar khairiat sey to hain na ? zara pigeon hole mein jhank leijiyae ga ... jub bhi moqa milae...]
---checked...nothing there from you...have you been using the correct address? it is temporal3...the last two an ‘l’ and a ‘3’...not # 13...khair...if you visit it now
http://chowk.com/people/Tools/cc_printhome.cgi?temporal
I have put up Word Waves (Mauj-e-Alfaz) for dost-mittar..aur agar aap ko pasand aaye tou tareef kay zyadah talib aur mustahiq ghaliban urstruly hain...oon tak daad pohancha dijiaye:)...
lve,
t
#203 Posted by anNy on July 5, 2001 11:06:26 am
Urstruly:
very charming offensive :]…do that one more time and ill smack you so hard u wont know what hit you
``It is our responsibility that we initiate a dialogue between the two-or at least we must appeal to those who represent us to initiate a dialogue. We should be very candid about our feelings to them that we, as the people, whom they claim to represent, want peace and not vengeance. WE must tell them that a human life is whether it is of one from the top echelon of the society or the most down trodden-they are equally valuable. And the life of those who have disagreements with us are as sacred as one of us.``
I agree vehemently but I don`t think these goons are very bothered about lives lost...be it the sunni party leaders, shia party leaders or mohajir leaders having a grand ol time in london…you think it would have been this bad if any of these individuals were sincere?
The thumbs alright thank you for asking...3 years is good healing time
ali1:
whenever you find time ali…thanks
tahmed sahab:
``People who are frustrated in life due to their own inadequacies or due to economic uncertainty are the ones who are foremost in indulging in communal or ethnic hate-mongering.``
Thankyou for your kind words. I completely agree with you here. And it is this aspect that the people on top play with weather its altaf hussain addressing the young mohajirs from london in an open ground giving them a persecution complex or the shiasunni leaders bellowing in loudspeakers promising jannat like it were theirs to do away with. You wont find more than a few individuals from reasonably well off families at these gatherings; the majority is from poor backgrounds. And the majority that kills and gets killed is also from the poor. Its incredible how anyone can play upon this sad burdensome aspect of young men. I never feel so sad as I do when I see young obviously not well off men and women at the university waste away their time...literally while it away…all under the umbrella of being a part of an ideology that those on top don`t give two hoots about. Its like a whole generation gone to the dogs blindfolded.
Shirinjee!! hullo:0)
Kaisee hain aap? the children, mian and tree outside? hope all four are well…:0)
Mithuna:
``This is one question I`ve been meaning to ask. Why are doctors and professionals targeted? I can imagine sectarian terrorists targeting lawyers defending (people whom they consider) Shia terrorists... but doctors?? Are these doctors politically active Shias?````
nope. As far as I know none of these doctors were politically active. Dr.sibtain was the nicest man ever...what ud call a family man...on his funeral there were more memons and sunnis than shias...he was a very good man and treated a lot of people for free…even doctor pirani…my mom knows his wife very well…he had 3 children and the wife is apparently pregnant right now with the fourth child…my brother says he was a very very nice man...maybe it`s a conspiracy to wipe out all the nice shiaa doctors…cant say…but none of the mentioned were politically active…im quite sure of that
very charming offensive :]…do that one more time and ill smack you so hard u wont know what hit you
``It is our responsibility that we initiate a dialogue between the two-or at least we must appeal to those who represent us to initiate a dialogue. We should be very candid about our feelings to them that we, as the people, whom they claim to represent, want peace and not vengeance. WE must tell them that a human life is whether it is of one from the top echelon of the society or the most down trodden-they are equally valuable. And the life of those who have disagreements with us are as sacred as one of us.``
I agree vehemently but I don`t think these goons are very bothered about lives lost...be it the sunni party leaders, shia party leaders or mohajir leaders having a grand ol time in london…you think it would have been this bad if any of these individuals were sincere?
The thumbs alright thank you for asking...3 years is good healing time
ali1:
whenever you find time ali…thanks
tahmed sahab:
``People who are frustrated in life due to their own inadequacies or due to economic uncertainty are the ones who are foremost in indulging in communal or ethnic hate-mongering.``
Thankyou for your kind words. I completely agree with you here. And it is this aspect that the people on top play with weather its altaf hussain addressing the young mohajirs from london in an open ground giving them a persecution complex or the shiasunni leaders bellowing in loudspeakers promising jannat like it were theirs to do away with. You wont find more than a few individuals from reasonably well off families at these gatherings; the majority is from poor backgrounds. And the majority that kills and gets killed is also from the poor. Its incredible how anyone can play upon this sad burdensome aspect of young men. I never feel so sad as I do when I see young obviously not well off men and women at the university waste away their time...literally while it away…all under the umbrella of being a part of an ideology that those on top don`t give two hoots about. Its like a whole generation gone to the dogs blindfolded.
Shirinjee!! hullo:0)
Kaisee hain aap? the children, mian and tree outside? hope all four are well…:0)
Mithuna:
``This is one question I`ve been meaning to ask. Why are doctors and professionals targeted? I can imagine sectarian terrorists targeting lawyers defending (people whom they consider) Shia terrorists... but doctors?? Are these doctors politically active Shias?````
nope. As far as I know none of these doctors were politically active. Dr.sibtain was the nicest man ever...what ud call a family man...on his funeral there were more memons and sunnis than shias...he was a very good man and treated a lot of people for free…even doctor pirani…my mom knows his wife very well…he had 3 children and the wife is apparently pregnant right now with the fourth child…my brother says he was a very very nice man...maybe it`s a conspiracy to wipe out all the nice shiaa doctors…cant say…but none of the mentioned were politically active…im quite sure of that
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