Tilak and Gokhale

re: saud # 300

``..they say when u lie down with dogs u get up with flees``

Ok...you made even me smile...:)

Saud,

Kindly dont stoop to the level of Bhartiya Muslim.

The only way we are going to triumph in our views and perspectives, is if we stick to our views. All you are doing is discrediting my thesis. My blood too boiled, and I had written a response cursing out at this individual. However, I thought against it.

-YLH

I hope all objective chowkies, regardless of religion, caste, creed, national origin or political views, will join me in condemning Bhartiyah Muslim`s Post 285. As the author of this article, I strongly urge Mr Zulfikar to relieve us of his indecent company. I also hope that Chowk Staff will send adequate warning to him.

Not only has he accused me `of being an Arab wannabe` a claim, the irony of which many chowkwallahs will appreciate, since I have been the most vocal opponent, and also considering the topic of the article I wrote, but he has taken the most slanderous tone, without any real provocation, saying

`And we all know that the Pakis in general beheave like the pack dogs of the Arabs..god knows why for the modern Arabs are bereft of all culture & dignity & decorum. They

are the laziest, most indolent lot with not a single remarkabe achievement to their name in the modern world. Even more pathetic is the Paki with his slave psychology....if the Arabs urinate on a Paki, the Paki will lap it up with glee, relishing the liquid as if it were God`s own nectar`

Truth be known, Indian Muslims are the most `Arab wanna be` of all the people atleast this is what practical life tells me, after watching the reaction of Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims in the US. In any event, I believe it is considered noble by Indians if an Indian Muslim slanders Pakistan the way this chap has done over here. I sincerely hope he scores some points with Harimau, who he is kissing upto because Harimau`s well known for spewing communal hatred against Indian Muslims.

Suddenly I am not too sure of Mr Zulfikar`s credentials as a `new comer` on this board. This is a deliberate effort to provoke cyber violence.

Dost Mittar:

Jinnah`s famous quote in this regard is

`Now my dear friend, I am going to constitute myself as the protector general of Hindu Minority in Pakistan. I will require your help. I shall take no refusal.

This was said to M S M Sharma who wrote the book

`Peeps into Pakistan` .. try page 135 if I am not mistaken.

He further quotes Jinnah :

`Hindus of Pakistan will live in Pakistan, and Muslims of India will live in India`.

Jinnah created the Pakistani Minorities Association which was headed by Hemandas Wedhwani.

He also toured Punjab and Sind extensively stopping the slaughter of Hindus at many places.

His famous incident is quoted in Raj Mohan Gandhi`s book 8 Muslim Lives... Jinnah was told

not to go Hindu Refugee camp because tensions were high. But he rushed there. Some Muslim Refugees from India had come and wanted to kill the Hindus. Jinnah told them `you should be ashamed

of yourselves: these (the Hindus) are citizens of Pakistan.` And he ordered the police to use force to protect them.

Jinnah`s efforts to avert communal violence on Pakistani side of the Punjab are not well known but that doesnt mean they are not there.

Veeresh:

My answer to that is ...all answers from a to e depending on what perspective you are taking. For the British it was the great mutiny. It was the freedom struggle for both Pakistanis and Indians, it was definitely a religious uprising, for Hindus it was the cow, and Muslims it was Pig....

The divide and rule policy of British took root after the war of Independence. They singled out the Muslims and denied them opportunities for advancement seeing that it was the Muslims who were the rulers. Hindus were told that there was really no difference between Muslim Rule or British rule because both of them were the same as far as they were concerned since both were foreign.

I am all for a discourse in History, but only if you completely and wholeheartedly condemn `Bharatiyah Muslim`s` comments in 285, making a gesture to us Pakistanis, that you dont find Pakistani Bashing noble.

-YLH

well this is what happens when u go kissing ass to a bunch of half naked fakirs. does that ring a bell?? they say when u lie down with dogs u get up with flees. i guess that`s exactly what`s happened to mr.bhartia musalman. he calls himself a muslim and yet he forgets the fact that it was the arabs who converted him and forefathers to islam, otherwise he`d still be drinking cow piss and BAR -b-QUEing his mothers and sisters after the death of their husbands. u forget sir that the greatest accomplishment of the arabs was the spread of islam to ignorant shits like u. and dont also lets not forget the fact that our holy prophet was also of arab descent. as for thier acheivement in the modern world, well without thier oil the entire world would be would be walking, including u. as for calling us dogs, why dont u take a good look at urself in the mirror first. ur the one whos alienated from ur religion and culture. ur the one whos jumping and barking like a dog at the hindus every whim and demand. why dont u roll over and play dead for a change!!!

This goes out to Mr. Imran and all those others who think that Jinnah was a fool and that Pakistan is a failure.

Sir, epecailly those of you who are muslims,you all are very dumb indeed.

The Indians have successfully and may I add with great ease convinced mulims living in India that they were indeed right to stay there, and that Jinnah was a fool and so on.Sirs, they have divided us, nations and countires dont matter, we are all muslims, if my family needs help it is the resonsiblity of my muslim brother to help me not taunt me and visa versa.Help this mulim nation instead of mocking it. They have divided us, thru their Durdarshan,their Zee t.v.and their forums, they have divided us.Divided muslims who were once their rulers,I for one am not surprised, what else could one expect from slaves who have now become equals. Jinnah saw this comming and that is why he tried his best to stop it.

Ob

re: Bhartiya # 285

``Even more pathetic is the Paki with his slave psychology....if the Arabs urinate on a Paki, the Paki will lap it up with glee, relishing the liquid as if it were God`s own nectar....this is the mentality you are dealing with..``

Oh oh....

Bhai Saheb, how do you think such language affects decent Pakistanis?

I have learnt the hard way...you do too..emotional, strong language rarely serves its purpose.

:(

Upman,

The Mohajir Community remains amongst the most Patriotic in Pakistan. It is that they are disillusioned right now.

Despite all that I doubt that Mohajirs will take you up on your offer. One day, your own delusions about India will be cleaned up and clear.

What may I ask is so `Arab` about my article? Is it because I have written about two Arab Muslims?

Dost Mittar,

. So, what

was Jinnah doing when Lahore and the rest of Punjab was

burning? How many Deputy Commissioners and Police Inspectors

did he fire? Is there any record of his going out on the streets and

trying to control the mobs? Did he call a meeting of the Muslim

league workers and exhorted them to go out and douse the fires?

All this he did as is well documented. Kindly read the accounts by Sri Prakasa, the Indian High Commissioner in Karachi.

I request all, especially the Indian interactors to desist from

making any such comments that can be even remotely construed

as a personal attack. Such comments not only divert the attention

from more substantial issues, they present the concerned people

in poor light. I have said it before and I will say it again, ``ad

hominem`` is the surest way to undo your cause.`

Yup kindly also take note of one of your countrymen`s post `285` .

RE YLH 282

Oh wise one, thou spoke...``Point taken. However, kindly control your own people too, because, I have not retaliated without no reason. Even as you wrote your post, Upman was accusing Jinnah being a theocrat because Jinnah said ` We do not mean any ill. The foundation of our Islamic code is that we stand forliberty, equality and fraternity.```

The thing about democracy is differences of opinion. As much as you spout stuff, you have the right to. Indians are not monolithic in that you can tell Pankaj to keep his people quiet. Controlling people and their opinions is very fascist, or in modern terms, like what your coreligionists do in Afghanistan, Saudi and other oases of liberty. Re your last sentence, while it is very admirable to believe so, look around. show me an Islamic society where they stand for liberty, equality and fraternity. You`ll be looking till the end of eternity. Get back to selling financial products to unsuspecting naives. Tha`s the ticket.

Yasser,

Great reply to Upman (on Jinnah`s alleged communalism), and to bahratiya mussalman too.

Your thesis seems to be getting better refined and more coherent with each post, distracted only by the occassonal need to fire (back) salvos thrown at you. It`s likely that in the thick of all this action, you would have not found my reproduction of that passage on Schumacher too relevant. No worries. But I hope you will return to it once the dust here settles. (If ever)

Now, I undesratnd that your personal attacks on -- whoever -- is only in retaliation. I would urge you to resist being drawn into that game. Your talent can be much better spent on other endevaours. I believe Jinnah needs no more defending. You have done an excellent job, and the time has come to rest the case and ... i dunnoo.. maybe take someone out for a cup of coffee or something.. :)

(you won`t mind the light humor, I hope) .. But seriously, the time now is to foucs on practical steps... as Sadhana and Pankaj said earlier.. ``the real task is convincing our country-men and -women of your thesis. Not that I`m suggeting you return home immediately and re-organize the Pasban, but at least start investing some of the time spent on chowk in devising a framework/strategy for implementation of your/Jinnah`s ideals. I`m sure many at chowk (Indian and Pak alike) would be happy to assist you in that endeavour.

Best of luck. (And apologies for second guessing some of your motives/opinions)

rgds,

PM

P.S. I commisserate with your having to explain your postion viz the `Arab` connection to every presumptuous, patronizing newcomer here.

PS And this is my request to all chowkies not to demean themselves by using the kind of filth that Bhartiyah Muslim has used.

It is hoped and expected that a lot of Indian chowkies will also come up and educate this `new comer` on my stance against Arabization of Pakistan, which by the way is a concept which has no root in Pakistan, but amongst Indian Muslims.

How sad, that I, the arab wannabe Paki-Muslim, wrote an article about Bin Gokhale and Bin Tilak the two great Arab leaders.

Chowkwallahs:

Once again we have a new comer on chowk assumign that he knows everything. So much for my repeated stances against `Arabization` ....My sincere advise to all new comers on chowk is to first find out in detail what my political views are.

Again we see another Indian taking to personal attacks.

Interestingly enough other than myself, most Pakistanis I have met have last names `Bhatti, Langriyal, Chattha, etc.... US was the first place I met a muslim from the subcontinent, declaring that he was the descendant of the Turks or someone... and he was from India.

Yup I am Arab wanna be and thats why I have written an article about two `Arab` leaders one

Bin Gokhale and the other Bin Tilak.

As for Pakistan being an `Arab wannabe Country` one visit to Pakistan will undo this myth. On the contrary we see that its the Indian Muslims who love to Identify with their Arab Brethren.

On the topic here is a post, where I replied to Harish 3 on Aisha`s board... Kindly take note of point 5:

ON BREAKING INDIAN MYTHS

Harish3 you write :

``pakistan was created due to an inferiority complex coupled with

the not-always-justified- belief in the superiority of islam over

otherbelief systems. pakistani muslims, regardless of their actual

lineage, feel that they are part of a muslim race of people who

once conquered india and ruled it. in 1947, on the verge of a

democratic, independent state, they could not tolerate a situation

in which they were no longer in control and in a nation in which the

majority group did not believe, as they did, in the superiority of the

islamic lifestyle. for these reasons, partition occurred. many

different arguments including the two nation theory and

hindu oppression were used to justify partition, but even pakistanis

on this board have pointed out why they have been discredited.``

I hope you will now read my response:

1) You are admitting yourself the credibility of TNT by

abovementioned statement since you are accepting that Muslims

indeed did think in a group. However your implications are

oversimplified.

2) You have misunderstood the article. I remind you that Jinnah

himself said in his 11th August speech that

``Had it not been for this hindu Muslim divide we

would have been free peoples` long ago. No power on earth can

hold a nation of 400 million souls in subjection``. Aisha has alluded

well to this when she says ``Old roads lead to barren lands....``

Hence the true perspective of those who made Pakistan was that

the Hindu Muslim divide was an unfortunate reality which existed.

3) Whereas it is true that some did support the Pakistan idea

because of the reasons that you mentioned above, Pakistan

Movement like all great movements was not a homogenous

movement. It had secularists, atheists, Islamists, socialists, land

lords, populists, schedule caste Hindus, and even a few Hindu

Brahmin intellectuals lining up behind it . Hence your simplistic

theory of partition fails to explain why formerly the greatest

ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity Jinnah or people like Dr Barkat

Ali who had been very critical of Iqbal when he put forth the idea of

Pakistan would lead such a movement. Your simplistic theory fails

to explain why Brahmin Professors like Dr Dutta of the Forman

Christian College supported the Pakistan Movement, or why

people like Jogindranath Mandal put their lot with the Pakistan

Movement. You cannot also explain the overwhelming parsee

support for Pakistan.

4) Most importantly your theory fails to explain why almost the

entire Muslim Religious leadership supported the Congress and

were pitted against Pakistan? You fail to explain the actions of the

Ahrar Party, Jamiat e Ulema e Hind etc.

5) Those who continuously propagate this myth of Turkish and

Mughal ancestry and then associate it with the Pakistanis are

people who dont know Pakistanis very well. Anyone who goes to

Pakistan will immediately notice how fiercely proud of their

ancestry are the Jatts and Rajputs... interestingly enough they

hate the Hindus the most! Yes there are the syeds in Pakistan but

the Pakistanis I have been around have mostly taken pride in being

Jatt, Rajput, Arain or Punjabi!

On the contrary, I still remember the filth and abuse hurled at me

in my hight school in Pakistan when I happened to mention the

claim of my mother`s family to be the descendant of the Holy

Prophet. My own experience with the Muslim from the

subcontinent boasting of a Turkish or Mughal lineage was at

Rutgers. He was a rather dark looking Indian Hyderabadi Muslim

who claimed to be the descendant of the Mughal Turks. As per

Fawad Malik (Fawad79)`s testimony he hasnt made any secret of

his displeasure with Pakistan. My second experience with this lot

was a person from Ms Sarwari`s school. Again an Indian Muslim

with immense hatred for Pakistan, this guy proudly claimed to be

the direct descendant of the Ghanznavid Turks .... the theory that

you have put forth also fails to explain that why then Pakistan has

had leaders who havent laid any claims to Turkish lineage.

a) Mohammed Ali Jinnah`s grandfather had accepted Islam. It is an

accepted fact that Jinnah was of the Gujrati Lineage and his

mother tongue was Gujrati.

b) Zulfikar Ali Bhutto: His family had converted to Islam in the 17th

century. This too is an accepted fact. He too never laid any claims

on lineage from the Turks or Persians.

c) Benazir Bhutto : Same as above

d) Nawaz Sharif : Accepted Kashmiri Ancestry

With the exception of Iskandar Mirza, we know that most

Pakistani Politicians have local names. Some of the names you

hear in Pakistan amongst Politicians are : Langrial, Gurmani,

Chatha, Mamdot, Daultana, Bhatti, Bhat, Rajput, Magsi etc etc...

Is this the ``denial`` of lineage that you talk about? If you read the

article again, the Mirzas are the Indians. Hence Aisha has alluded

to the fact that Indian Muslims still think of themselves amongst

those lines while Pakistani Muslims do not. A visit to Pakistan will

make this abundantly clear.

6) This is dealing with posts by Jay who keeps harping the same

nonsense. Yes we donot deny that Jinnah preferred a

constitutional struggle towards Independence rather than the

Gandhian civil disobedience. This doesnot qualify him to be a

lesser freedom fighter. It is simply a different method. Furthermore,

jail in Agha Khan`s house cannot be a big sacrifice by Gandhi.

7) The issue between Pakistan and India is Kashmir. Kashmiris

dont want to be with India, and we want a plebsicite there.

According to Woodrow Wilsonian edicts, they should have the

right to self determination.

8) If there are any ideological problems, it is that Indians like Mr

Harish 3 and Jay, always oversimply history, making everything a

Good vs Evil thing instead of looking it from a conflict of group

interest Point of view.

This does not worry us Pakistanis. Like Aisha and temporal say :

`Pakistan is here to stay`. That you people persist on revising

History and simplifying like you do , is your loss alone!

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN

PS A mature response will be appreciated!

Once again we have a new comer on chowk assumign that he knows everything. So much for my repeated stances against `Arabization` ....

My sincere advise to all new comers on chowk is to first find out in detail what my political views are.