Tilak and Gokhale

bhartiya musalman:

There is a limit to disloyalty. By attempting to bash Pakistanis, without the reference to reasons, you have shown us your ugly insides...and believe me, statistically speaking you don`t do much good for the numbers of politically disillusioned on your end. If you are an Indian Muslim, work towards getting more Muslims into different fields where they can anchor success, because that is an area to work on...you could put your ``Muslim Nationhood`` to some constructive, practicable and divisible use... Like YLH said, be loyal to your own county...don`t defecate where you eat...by using hatred for Pakistanis to attach and belong where you don`t feel needed you are climbing a ladder that`s up the wrong wall.

Let me make one more thing clear and allow me to get my true feelings out here, fools like you, will not be allowed to get away with painting a picture of Pakistan like its needing any person form India in any way. You to us are simply a bunch of Indians, we will bomb you if your predominantly Hindu government tickles our sensitive parts...so focus on having control over your government`s undisciplined impulses and don`t you ever, EVER, look this way again, because we`ll pop your eyes out for the betrayal of human devotion and the waste of time you give us with your confusion.

PS: Read article.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

Eklavya #397 Lincoln had a great view on life. His reminder to worry about the future generations, not the past, is a great reminder for all of us who cannot see beyond our little cubby holes. His words, ``With malice towards none...`` are another example of why Lincoln truly ``belongs to the ages`` (as someone said when he breathed his last).

Future generations belong to all of us.

Regards.

bharatiya musulman #398 ``I am here to debate with and expose the intellectual shallowness, religious bigotry, narrow mindedness, empthy headed machismo attitude and racist ideology of the Pakistani cowards. ``

Ha! Just when I thought the Keyboard Pehlwaans had decided to take off from chowk for the summer, we have this fine specimen here. I hope to God you were dead serious when you wrote that, since then we can expect more of this fun stuff. Some of the more established Pehlwaans were beginning to seem like a broken record.

I am one intellectually shallow, religiously bigoted, narrow minded, empty headed machisma attitude, racist ideologue, Pakistani coward who will be rooting for you - so dont stop with this post!!

re: dost-mittar

``I agree that Ranjit Singh`s rule extended to Peshawar and maybe beyond. But how can one deduce conversions therefrom? The Sikh rule gave way to the British who immediately bestowed upon them the distinction of their favoured ``martial race``. What incentive was there then for them to convert? In any case, there have been regular population censuses of Punjab since 1861 and they do not indicate any significant change in the religious mix of the population between then and 1941.``

Although like I said before, I am no expert on the subject (the topic of conversions, forced or otherwise, seems to be an Indian favourite) and I have`nt looked at the Punjab Gazateer for quite some time, but allow me to express a few thoughts. According to you there is no data available before 1861. If I remember correctly, the Sikh rule was at its height around/before 1830`s. Sikhs were not the only blue-eyed`s of the Brits, they had quite a deep admiration bordering on affection for the PMs also. The recruitment proportion of the two in the Army was also quite at par. But all this would be post-1840s.

Implicit in your statement are a couple of points: Conversions can only take place under duress - and although Hindu to Muslim conversion makes sense, Sikh to Muslim is not probable.

On the first part you are only partially right in my opinion. We in Pakistan are taught that the spread of Islam is soley due to the teachings and influence of Sufis and the sword had nothing to do with it-which is the other extreme. I think the answer as always is somewhere in between. Whereas upheavals like the partition can change the demographics dramatically in a short period of time - there is no reason to believe that people can`t change their beliefs in periods of peace.

The second point, I would like you to elaborate on. Why do you think Sikh-Muslim conversion is not possible/probable? What is so unconventional about it?

Regards.

Bhartiya

And how dare you claim that you are here for an intellectual debate...the views you have put up are not only lacking in intellectual honesty but are the direct result and product of lack of Intellectual rigor.

Have you even read my article? Is there any doubt of the facts I have mentioned? I havent seen any Indian deny any facts? What intellectual shallowness are you here to expose any way? Your own? I suppose? You are nothing but a confused fascist fanatic, who has still not come to terms with the fact that you are Indian... had you done so, then you wouldnt be talking of a greater India, and a stronger Muslim community.

Jinnah had brought the TNT to an end. In Pakistan he asked us to forget the TNT. Even in India he asked the Muslims to remain loyal to their state.

Since you obviously still think in terms of Hindu vs Muslim evident from your first post, you are the living testament of the TNT..... if TNT means Pakistan and India, then you cannot decry it because Pakistan and India exist and will exist till eternity. If you mean Muslims and Hindus, that you prove by yourself and by your warped logic.

Imran 367

Not only are you delusional but you didnt even bother to read my posts. I know a lot of Indians, Muslims and Hindus alike, so please dont assume.

Indian Muslims tend to be more fanatical and more arabicized simply because they have a contradiction between an Indian National identity

which is predominantly Hindu because Hindus are in Majority, and their `brotherhood of Islam`.

You are not being loyal to India, you are being passionate about your hatred for Pakistan and thats it. Your delusions about the nationhood of Pakistan reflects your lack of knowledge and your bias. All that is your loss. Jinnah explicitly asked Indian Muslims to be loyal to India, and that is what we ask you to do. It is you who keeps harping about the brotherhood of Islam.

I dont care you are a devout muslim or not. That just goes to prove the initial hypothesis, the fundamentalist fanatics were pro-Congress and only the progressive Muslims supported the Pakistan demand.

In the end I require only this of you.

a) Stop calling me bhai because I dont believe in the brotherhood of Islam other than what is beneficial for Pakistan.

b) A anti-Pakistan fascist fanatic bigoted Indian Muslim like yourself cannot be my bhai, and I take it as an insult.

c) I hope that you leave this delusions and become truly loyal to your country, because if your creed is the creed of Abu al Kalaam Azaad, the Khilafatist fools, or that of the Ahrar Party and

the Jamaat e Islami who opposed the creation of PAKISTAN, then it is my belief that you cannot be accademically intellectually true to the ideal secular India.

d)Try to read more Pre partition History, and realize that by giving the example of the khilafatists you cannot and will not endear yourself to the Modern Pakistani Nationalist myself.

e) Be a man enough to read the post that I posted.

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re: dost-mittar

I am not that knowledgeable, but nice of you to say that. A little ways from Peshawar is the Jamrud Fort. I think it was built by the Sikhs (Hari Singh Nalva ?). Anyway, the fort has an excellent design and construction.

re: bharatiya_m

``I am here to debate with and expose the intellectual shallowness, religious bigotry, narrow mindedness, empthy headed machismo attitude and racist ideology of the Pakistani cowards.``

Dear Friend, Long before you came up with the idea of DIA, Jay and Sadna had co-founded the RIA (Retarded Individuals Association) with the manifesto very close to what you wrote in your post. I suggest you apply to them for a membership.

For your DIA, I hereby volunteer Maulana Asif Naqshbandi (ra) for a lifetime membership. PLEASE accept him.

Harimau: You write ``You people believe that it is illiteracy that is the problem in Pakistan. No; the mindset that created Pakistan is the problem in Pakistan. ``

Pearl`s widow (who actually would have a reason to hate Pakistan, unlike you) knows better (see my extract below). The Indian people who humiliated the BJP Juggernaut in recent elections by pointing out that for them the issue was economics know better. The Pakistani people (the overwhelming majority of whom in recent polls gave economics their number one concern, and Kashmir a neglibible 4%) know better. Even Musharaff (yes!) who I myself heard a couple of weeks back speaking passionately for two and a half hours on poverty alleviation and law and order and only 15 minutes (and that too in a light-hearted manner) on relations with India knows better. Anybody who knows of the past acts of the hindutvas in India knows better.

You and others like you on chowk know only one thing: that you hate Pakistan. You may be educated brown sahibs who have memorized all the IT circuits, and exchange insults from the comfort of your homes, but you people know nothing about the realities of Pakistan and India and you know nothing about good sense.

re: tahmed321 # 395

thahmed bhai,

All this obsession some people have with ancestry and geneology reminds me of the only true definition of geneology: geneology is the art and science of tracing yourself back to people better than you. :)

Given this definition, main kuchch hypotheses arz karta hoon.

H1: The less certain one is of oneself, the greater his or her concern with geneology is likely to be.

H2: The more challenged or threatened a person feels, the greater his or her search of geneological greatness or purity is likely to be.

H3: The less a person sees in his or her future, the greater his obsession with geneology is likely to be.

And, was it our good friend Lincoln who said that we should be concerned less with how great our grandparents were and more with what our grandchildren will become?

Regards.

Bapu #175 I believe you have now been educated (by rajanjua and others) that only a yahoo (not the fancy internet kind, just plain old dangar)still thinks that a person is ``low`` on account of ancestry (jat in case of your post). Permit me to round out this fine public education being given to you by adding that a dangar (y`know, like ``khota`` or ``khachar``) also thinks that a person is ``low`` on account of mode of employment (``doormen of restaurants in Delhi`` in case of your post).

I shall not comment on your ancestry, but looks like you were not listening when you were being taught these basics by your elders (who I am sure were fine people, but probably gave up on you and are grateful you now stay out of their hair thanks to the internet). Cheers.

re: dost-mittar

Sat Sri Akal,

The Muslim population could not have appeared over-nite. It must have been a slow process. At one point the Sikh rule extended all the way to Peshawer and I am just extrapolating. On one extreme you have the pakistanis who don`t even like to mention that they were after all hindus and on the other extreme you have the bahratiya_m who needs to prove in every post that his penis is still uncircumcised. I personally don`t see what`s the big deal.

re: Pankaj

Ancestors of most Pakistanis were either Hindus or Sikhs at some point in time. I am not sure why Booboo would make such a big deal out of it.

Regards.

p.s. Janjuas are Rajputs.

rajanjua # 387

``Jats are not lowly my dear fellow. Heck they are some of the finest people you`ll ever come across-lively, hardworking and with big hearts-they also happen to form the main defense of your country-show some respect for those who have given their lives defending your puny little ass in Dilli.``

I agree absolutely. Thumbs up.

Rjanjua#387

Perhaps people feel that since you or your ancestors in some way were remotely related to anything(Jats) that smacks of any connection with horrible Hindus, by association you are also bad. I dont know why this guy Bapu is bringing someone`s ancestory into question at all. Anyways you know the best.