Tilak and Gokhale

DM-G:

Hmmmmmh...Dost Mittar, it seems that you`ve started having a good handle on producing counter arguments :) :) :)

Mubrook! Mubrook!

PS: OK, let me be a little specific as well as ambiguous here. You did not define the fine line in your previous post and that was where I became alert and expressed my concerns. Now, how the line should have looked like and sounded like? I wil leave that on your disposal.

Ba-khabar Zarai` Sae Pata Chala Hae Keh Google Search Engine is being used extensively by some of the wiser ones on Chowk[whisper]. Kindly consult Mukurmee`o`Mohtarmee Hazrat JB as he was the pioneer of introducing that search engine to many on Chowk.

Happy Searching!

Regards

janjua sahib:

My sides are still sore after:

``How is that an evidence of superiority. Records from the jahiliya time period confirm that they were the scum of the earth who required divine intervention for their islah. And even that did`nt help - Just look at them now.``

and

``...its not too late to be potty trained.``

Didn`t see this humorous side of you before.

rgds

PM



Sadna,

Good questions posed in #358. Hopefully our friend will get over the threat-from-East perception soon enough to realize where the real rot oringinates. Thanks for posting :)

Don`t you think Pakistanis should be worried more about the following than whether that loser Jinnah was secular or not.

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,515196,00.html

Brain drain worsens chaos in Pakistan

Burhan Wazir

Sunday July 1, 2001

The Observer

Pakistan is facing a massive brain drain as foreign embassies are deluged with record numbers of visa applications from Pakistanis desperate to leave their politically unstable, economically chaotic country.

As Pakistan`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, defended his decision to declare himself President, dismissing the possibility of an early election, the United States revealed last week a tripling of applications for non-immigrant visas over the year up to October 2000.

The biggest number of applications for British visas are from Pakistan. And Canada, the destination of first choice for Pakistanis, has received 40 per cent more immigrant visa applications in the first quarter of this year than in the same period last year.

Doctors, lawyers and IT professionals are leading the exodus, but a previously entrenched social group is also clamouring to leave. The lines of malnourished people who gather daily outside the US Embassy in Islamabad are increasingly made up of labourers and farm-hands.

`Pakistanis from all walks of life have sought to live abroad since the Fifties,` says Abdel Noor Zaiback, deputy US consul-general in Islamabad. `But there is a worrying trend towards even agrarian workers - farmers and farm labourers - wanting to leave. That perhaps indicates a sense of disillusionment among Pakistanis at large.`

Pakistan has been in disarray since 1999, when Musharraf led a military coup against Prime Minister Nawaz Shar-if`s government. Only 54 years after the country`s independence, a Gallup survey conducted last September found 62 per cent of the adult population indicated a preference for relocation abroad.

A similar survey in 1984 - when another dictator, General Zia-ul-Haq, won a referendum that set up a return to party politics the following year - found only 17 per cent of Pakistanis were eager to emigrate.

`If a society is moving upwards - and by that I mean the country is a stable democracy - then there is a general feeling of progress that can be measured by wealth, health and education,` says Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy, a social commentator at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad.

`Currently we have a country that is unable to educate its people, has no political system and has seen an alarming growth in fundamentalism.`

Musharraf`s administration has been unable to heal the country`s deep sectarian and religious divides. Tensions between Shia and Sunni Muslims, coupled with the rise of the fiercely orthodox religious schools, or madrassahs, plague the country.

A poor standard of secondary and higher education lies at the heart of the exodus - a recent exhibition of 19 British universities in Islamabad attracted 3,000 hopefuls in one day. Some 3,500 Pakistani students are studying for degrees in the UK, with the number expected to rise to nearly 6,000 by 2005.

Last April, the Federal Minister of Science and Technology, Professor Ataur Rahman, announced a plan to woo back expatriate IT professionals. Scientists and engineers would have their salaries raised by 800 per cent and new IT universities would be established.

`We are starting major education programmes across Pakistan,` said Rahman. `We are trying to bring back our brightest people from abroad. The only difference between us and developed countries like the UK is education. There is no dearth of talent and skilled people here.`

`That might be the case,` says Ahmed Bilal Mehboob, chief executive of the Institute of Overseas Pakistanis in Lahore.

`But wealth remains in the hands of a few. And educated Pakistanis say they get fairer treatment overseas. In Pakistan, the system is based on favours and this syndrome is getting worse.`

Macgupta #346

{{ It is on public record that his famous counterpart, the Q-e-Azam said such things about Hindus.}}

Source please. Thanks.

bharatiya musalman #367
``the Hindus have evolved a much better and much more successfull society than you have.``

bharatiya musalman, its too early to say, and if it does happen, it will not be to the credit of the `Hindus`, it will be to the credit of Indians of all shades.

Fuzair #142 White supremacists in the US have in fact been very much the target of US law enforcing agencies (in Waco, Texas), as has the Mafia (remember Al Capone who was arrested in the 1930`s for tax evasion or some such crime since, like Osama ben Laden, he took great pains to distance himself from the scene of his crimes), and the drug lords in more recent years, and even politicans are not exempt(even Presidents, like Nixon and Clinton).

The fact is, the first order of the day for any society (US or Pakistan) should be to put away those who cause violence. This may call for racial or ethnic profiling in the US, and so be it. The additional hassles (if any) are a small price to pay for having a law-abiding society.

In Pakistan tactics other than racial profiling may be needed: the best way to put the mullahs out of business is to take away their guns, take away their funds, and (perhaps most important) take away their convenient ideology that has allowed them to drag religion into politics - in fact a priestly class has no role in Islam.

anarayan #343
Thanks for your very interesting posting.

Dear Bapu, Please go to the bathroom when you need to take a dump. Its never too late to get potty-trained.

Reply #: 357

rajanjua

You sir,

Are a scum & minority of Pakistan(non muslim) &shamefully masquarade as majority muslim Pakistani.Sooner or later i hope they(Pak mujaheeds) get you & DOWN WITH INDIAN WHO SUPPORT MINORITIES LIKE YOU ,for being GADDAR.

Asif N. #344: I hope you are not suggesting that Arabs, of equal character, are superior to non-Arabs, of equal character. This goes completely against Islam, itself. Please clarify.

One cannot use historical remarks by individuals to pass judgement, one way or the other, over races, individuals etc. Arabs of the 7th century are different from Arabs of the current century. Moreover, each individual should be judged by the content of his/her character, not by their ethnicity, race or even religion. This is stated in my favorite verse from the Quran,which points out that Muslims aren`t the sole inheritors of reward:

``Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.``(verse 62, The Cow)

Also, one should also not became a slave to jurisdictions passed by others, specially if those jurisdictions were passed hundreds of years ago. I am very hesitant to follow, ``scholars`` who are bent upon, ``laying down the law`` without leaving room for disagreement. I am also very wary of teachers who state the, ``truth`` to their pupils, rather than encouraging and providing the tools to the students to find the truth on their own.

Personally speaking, I am becoming more and more convinced daily that all Islam requires is the Quran and a lot of common sense. Everything else is just beaurecracy. It furthur requires people who study the Quran (but not as their sole profession), and are humble enough to know their own limitations, and thus only provide suggestions on its interpretations, but do not dictate their interpretations as the sole truth.

The Prophet and the society he created around himself should be used as the model. However, I am not convinced that all the Hadiths, having been passed on over so many hundreds of years without being written, are genuine. Based on this, I think they should be only considered suggestions and never be a part of the law.

Here is an interesting article on Jinnah in The Tribune of Chandigarh :

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20000416/edit.htm#1

by P. H. Vaishnav

A liberal in the constituency of fanatics

Lessons from Jinnah`s life

The article outlines Jinnah`s career as a liberal, culminating with his famous speech

``Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

``I cannot emphasise it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community — because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalees, Madrasis, and so on — will vanish......

``You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan..... You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State....

``We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.... We should keep (this) in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State....”

------

The conclusion that the author draws is :

``Jinnah`s life and the character that Pakistan has assumed is an illustration of what happens when liberals, be it Jinnah or Bhutto or Musharraf, enlist the support of fanatical forces. It has a lesson for the Congressmen in our own country and the so-called moderate Akalis who cynically manipulated Bhindrawale. The ``liberals`` among the Sangh Parivar will also inevitably have to reckon with the Bajrang Dal, the VHP, the Shiv Sena and the other diehards of the Parivar.``

-Arun Gupta

Pardesi,

Thanks.

I was almost thinking I wasted 2 hrs!

Regards,

Dear Dost Mittar G:

I misplaced the board where you`ve asked me to ``complete`` the concept. I am hoping that this is the right one.

I suggest when you write something like you wrote to Saxena, you should check out the ins-and-outs of those concepts. Sometimes, when we are talking to people, we may say things casually that may stand out when they are written in black and white. That`s the best I can point out.

Take Care.

Can anyone tell me if Jay, the abbrevaited form of Jaya something, is a female or a male ? I will appreciate it.

Thank You.

ylh #354

Getting personal is not enough to discredit anyone`s arguments.

``Serbians and Hindu Nationalists were always the majority community. They did not need a nationalism. Nationalism to oppress is not the right form of nationalism, but then again your recent support to fanatics from your side seems to classify you in the same category, which is sad because I really thought for a minute that you were actually sincere.``

Muslim nationalism in majority Muslim Pakistan is good? Yikes! Is it to oppress minorities as you say, all majority nationalism is intended for? Aren`t Muslims in majority in Pakistan now? What is the need for Muslim nationalism now? Or are Muslims in a minority in Pakistan?

Best to say we are Pakistanis first, Muslims second, Arabs or Persians last. THATS the way to teach Arabophile posters #299 #300 the meaning of Pakistan, joining them in cursing India and Hindus and Indian posters just will not do it.

As far as ``Hindu nationalism`` in India is concerned, thats where fundamental principles laid down in a Constitution and a widespread support for it has/will stand us in good stead.

What are the widely accepted fundamental principles laid down in the Pakistan Constitution which the Pakistani polity is defending in a coherent way against all challenges?

And Hindu nationalism is a totally academic question for Pakistanis, barely 1% of Pakistanis are Hindu. I have to ask ``what does secularism in Pakistan in 2001 have to do with India, Hindus and Shiv Sena?``

Why do you consider India more of a threat to your secularism than millions of dollars of Arab money and organisations it has been funding for some decades like Jamaat-i-Islami? Are Arabs secular, perhaps?

And to claim to be secular is jack when you are ``offically`` Islamic.

And what of Wolperts` quote, do you agree with it or not?

``More than Iqbal, it was Nehru who charted a new mass strategy for the League, prodding and challenging Jinnah to leave the drawing rooms of politics to reach down to the hundred million Muslims who spent most of each day laboring in rural fields. There was, of course, only one possible way for the League to stir up that mass, to awaken it, and to lure ot to march behind ``Muslim`` leadership. The cry of Islam-in danger-of ``din``(religion) alone could emerge as the unique stand of the Muslim League``.

Jinnah of Pakistan, Stanley Wolpert, Chap ``London-Lucknow(1934-37)``

``The evidence for the superiority of Arabs can only be based on the fact that the last Revelation took place within the historical context of Arab culture.``

How is that an evidence of superiority. Records from the jahiliya time period confirm that they were the scum of the earth who required divine intervention for their islah. And even that did`nt help - Just look at them now.