Tilak and Gokhale

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TIME, December 23, 1996

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/union/paksa/www/html/pakistan/jinnah2.html



A TIGERISH MAN, ATOP A SECTARIAN TIGER

The chronicle of a leader and the passions he fanned into flames



By Carl Posey

Delhi in the spring heat of 1946 was not relaxed,`` TIME reported that April. ``It was taut with waiting, gravid with conflict and suspense. Two socialist lawyers and a former Baptist lay preacher from Britain had sat of 25 days in the southeast wing of the viceregal palace, preparing to liquidate the richest portion of empire that history had ever seen---to end the British Raj, the grand and guilty edifice built and maintained by William Hawkins and Robert Clive, Warren Hastings and the Marquess Wellesley, the brawling editor James Silk Buckingham and the canny merchant Lord Inchcape and by the great Viceroys, austere Curzon and gently Halifax. The Raj was finished.``

Finished, perhaps, but still difficult to put down. The Raj at the end was like one of the unexploded bombs still lettering postwar Europe, and it held the same promise: peaceful independence if you do it right, explosive civil war if you fail. ``The issue,`` said TIME, ``seemed to turn on one man---Mohammed Ali Jinnah.`` On Boris Chaliapin’s portrait cover, the metaphorical tingers of East and West Pakistan stalked the subcontinent.

TIME had watched Jinnah intermittently since 1930, first as an ardent articulator of Indian nationalism, then as a spark flashing perhaps too close to the subcontinent powder keg. ``Where the low, bare limestone ridges of Sukkur, Sind slope like unkempt stairs down to the banks of the Indus,`` TIME reported in December 1939, ``Indians who loudly object to fighting Germans in the name of Empire last week fought each other in the name of their various gods.`` Muslims had claimed a government building near the river as the site of an ancient mosque and ``threatened to hold it until nirvana-come. Whereupon Hindus swept the city, storming, looting, burning Moslem shops.`` It was a chilling preview of bloodbaths ahead.

``The leaders of the Moslems,`` TIME observed, ``usually thinks first about independence for Moslems and afterward about independence for Indians. His name is Mohammed Ali Jinnah, and he is probably the greatest single force for disunity in all disunited India.`` As TIME watched the inexorable progress of the cracks that would culminate in India’s partition, that view of Jinnah would be modulated, but it would not fundamentally change.

There was, in fact, a good deal to admire in Jinnah’s tough single-mindedness and the way he played his cards. Talking with TIME correspondent William Fisher in 1942, Jinnah said he would accept a national government that gave Muslims ``a fair break,`` but that he would stop cooperating if the British made peace with the Hindu-dominated Congress Party.

The April 1946 Jinnah cover story reported by Pacific bureau chief Robert Sherrod was more than TIME’s bittersweet obituary for the British Raj; it was one of the world’s first real close-ups of the man who would have Pakistan, in all his coldly tigerish colorations. Here was a charismatic leader who during Gandhi’s 1942 Quit India campaign had ``boasted that if his followers joined Gandhi’s pacifist program, the British would have 500 times more trouble ‘because we have 500 times more guts than the Hindus.’`` It was also a grim prophecy. ``The British Raj had given India a unified defense and a unified region of internal free trade,`` said TIME. ``Jinnah would destroy both ... Between mighty Russia to the north and the main body of India to the south, Pakistan would dangle like two withered arms.``

In August, Jinnah unleashed---perhaps inadvertently, perhaps not---an ugly sample of the horrors to come. Opposed to a British plan for Indian independence that did not also create Pakistan, he designated the 18th day of Ramadan as ``Direct Action Day.`` ``Though direct,`` TIME reported, ``the action was supposed to be peaceful. But before the disastrous day was over, blood soaked the melting asphalt of sweltering Calcutta’s streets.

``Rioting Moslems went after Hindus with guns, knives and clubs, looted shops, stoned newspaper offices, set fire to Calcutta’s British business district. Hindus retaliated by firing Moslem mosques and miles of Moslem slums ... By the 21 day of Ramadan, direct action had killed some 3,000 people and wounded thousands more.``

Interspersed with what TIME called ``musical chairs`` of negotiation, in which neither the Hindu side nor the Muslim side could be budged by British nudging, the killing went on and on. ``Perhaps, after all, there would be no independent India,`` TIME mused sadly in May 1947. ``Indeed, there might be no India.``

Pakistan was by then an idea nothing could contain. In August 1947 it became the world’s largest Muslim nation. The forces of hatred unleashed by Jinnah’s rhetoric, however, had acquired a life of their own. By late October 1947 the plague of enmity flared in Kashmir, where a Muslim majority lived under a Hindu maharaja who decided to throw in with India. ``In Moslem Karachi,`` TIME reported, ``Pakistan Governor General Mohammed Ali Jinnah raged at the news. He ordered Pakistan troops ... into Kashmir.`` But as the raiders pushed into the Vale, ``the blind butchery of neighbor by neighbor had reached Kashmir. Pakistan heard that 50,000 Moslems had been slaughtered by Hindus. British officials said that 100,000 fleeing refugees from Kashmir and nearby Jammu had crowded south into the still reeking Punjab.``

Jinnah, meanwhile, seemed to fade even as his discordant creation took form. ``Last week,`` TIME reported in early December 1947, ``after less than four months of independence, Pakistan was economic wreck, and serious social unrest was rising.`` The new country coul dnot afford to feed its millions of refugees; its checks bounced around the globe. As for the health of the seldom seen Jinnah, TIME added, ``The Pakistan Ministry indignantly said: ‘There is absolutely no truth in the rumors that Quaid-e-Azam [the Great Leader] is seriously ill.’``

In fact, as evidently only he was aware, Jinnah was dying.

``Out of the travail of 400 million in the Indian subcontinent,`` TIME wrote in September 1948, ``have come two symbols---a man of love and a man of hate. Last winter the man of nonviolence, Gandhi, died violently at the hands of an assassin. Last week, the man of hate, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, at 71, died a natural death in Karachi, capital of state he had founded.``

Enemies gave Jinnah his due, though. ``The Hindustani Times,`` TIME observed, ``devoted a page to an uncompromising attack on Jinnah’s motives and methods. However, it concluded: ‘A man of destiny, he was perhaps the greatest man of Islam since Mohammed.’`` But, TIME noted warily, his death ``raised the possibility that his political heirs might seek the final solution for insolvent, disorganized governments: war.`` Indeed, Jinnah’s chief legacy proved to be an eternity of discord

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Upman:

I came across your interesting post on ``Award Complex`` some time back and had been meaning to comment on it. My apologies for the delay. Although the post was not addressed to me, but I felt the need to comment on it.

I have not known about the tug between Tagore and Sir Iqbal. Personally, I would NEVER EVER do a comparison between poets. They all had their own stance, charm, beauty, impact, passion and last but not the least, they all had human emotions.

Hafeez Jalandhri, Ghalib, Faiz, Faraz, Hali, Akbar Ilah Abadi, Nazir Akbar Abadi, Zoaq, Firaq G, Meer[I cannot stand him], Omar Khayyam, Hafez, Gibran, Zafar, Sahir L and many many more - they all had a different flavor to their verses. You can never and should never compare them. They all held a special place. Sir Iqbal had his own philosophy.

Ghalib was never recognized while he was alive. All the recognition he recieved, was after his death. A great irony! Do not tell me that his heart won`t have bled many times on seeing other poets getting where he deserved to be. His circumstances were very different and sad, but still... This example may not be directly applicable to what we are talking about, but in a very indirect way, it is!

I am sure Sir Iqbal must have come up with:

Upman:

``Should I educate this person that being a Pakistani or and Indian, a Muslim or a Hindu, has nothing to do with whether a person is a good person or a bad person``

You said it yourself, you should not be doing the job of my parents or my teachers. You should focus on what your parents and teachers left out in your upbringing.

Please, I urge you not to separate things from its context. My statement to prefer any Pakistani over an Indian despite the religion, was in direct retaliation to Bhartia Musalman`s invitation to marry an Indian Muslim.

My motivation is my country. And in direct consequence I am cautious with anything Indian. It is true that I feel utmost respect and high thoughts for Non-Muslims of Pakistan, and I feel the equal and opposite for the Indians. I feel utmost concern for the Muslims of Pakistan and I feel equal and opposite indifference towards the Muslims of India.

I have switched my belief system form the basic Islamic upbringing to very Hindu spiritualistic (Gandhi, Yoga, Deepak Choopra) to very Islamic (only the Quran) to now the simple focus of returning to my country what I got form it, irregardless of such non-important self-righteous things such as religion. I have seen the worst of irrationalities resulting form devotion to the religion more than a common social cause.

Nonetheless I do strongly believe that it is important to believe in one source of love and life and creation, to be tranquil in the mind.

Now that you know clearly what I believe in, you should focus on your worthiness and not why I come across as bigoted.

Aisha Sarwari

klutz - Am not one to flog a dead horse but what made you say this ??

``You remind me of an ``indian Muslim woman`` who on her friends advice went to a ``Mandar`` to pray for her sons health who was dying.She didnt pray to Allah (well maybe she didnt) . but she went to a mandar and prayed to those objects

made of stone. ``

when lesser things in life have made us turn to other religions/quacks/faith healers/idols/you name it - so something as significant as the impending loss of someone who is dear to us - yes i would say try anything and everything in your power !!! That will never lessen your faith !

But I do have to add all that turns out to be futile anyways !!

aicha

When bigoted fanatics like Jay start talking of truths ... one fears that the world is coming to end.

#432

JAY...AnNy

80 million female are stopped from breathing life in the FOETUS stage of development of FEMALE child in the womb,IRONICALLY detected sex by Ultra Sound technique ,the very cutting edge technology invented in Medicine to SAVE life ,used to destroy FEMALE child SELECTIVELY in the last 20 yrs numbering approximately 80 millions.Leading to DROP in further lowering of Female : : Male ratio !!!!!!!!!!

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010520/edit.htm#5

The “missing” hundred million girls

A. J. SinghIT may come as a shock to many, but it is, nevertheless, true. The greatest enemy of a girl child is not man but the educated woman, not even the uneducated woman. This fact came to light when Monica Dasgupta, a researcher, analysed the sex ratio data, now known among demographers as Khanna data from Punjab. According to it, second and subsequent girls ``experience 32 per cent higher mortality than their siblings if their mothers are uneducated, but this gap jumps to 136 per cent if their mothers are educated.``And what holds true of Punjab is equally true of other North Indian states, particularly Haryana. No wonder, the latest census figures reveal a dangerously falling sex ratio in these states. For every 1,000 males, there are varying figures of females, with 870 as the lowest. It is an alarming trend but it does not seem to bother the powers-that-be. The reason: the politicians are interested only in capturing power — and all that flows from it — rather than in sociological issues. And there are not many social organisations — much less tall social leaders — who can bring about a change in the social attitude of the public against the female child.This bias against the girl child has led to the killing of over one hundred million (ten crore) of them in a decade through various methods. Nobel laureate Amartya Sen calls these `murdered` girls as ``missing women``. Many of these were killed right in the womb through induced or forced abortions or by other means as soon as they were born. In the states of Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Bihar — nicknamed as BIMARU (or sick) states — the foetus of the girl child is detected in the womb through high-tech aminocenteses test (AT). This is followed by induced abortion.Everybody in any locality in Punjab or Haryana or elsewhere where such clandestine clinics flourish knows this but no one dare prove it. Such is the terror of the police in the public mind because the former is known to torture those very persons who come forward to give information about law breakers. In such a scenario can femals foeticide be stopped? Surely, provided the public is educated to give up out-dated and harmful social practices. The topmost among these is the heavy expense a girl`s parents are expected to bear on performing the marriage of their daughter.Nine out of ten couples told a survey team that to bring up a daughter meant setting aside at least four to five lakh rupees for performing her marriage alone. ``We just can`t afford it``, said one couple. This couple further said that whatever money they were to spend on the girl`s education or marriage eventually went to enrich the family into which she was married. On the contrary, they favoured raising sons only. Why? Because the money spent on their education comes back to the family by way of their economic contribution when they grow up. Again, the sons become the crutch for parents to lean on in their old age. On top of it, when they get married, they bring brides along with dowry.This logic is common sense, but lop-sided even at its best. If there were no girls to wed, what would the boys do? Such a situation has begun to surface. In another 20 years, there will be too many eligible bachelors out in the marriage market chasing too few eligible girls. Such a situation can unleash a host of social evils like spurt in crime against women, abductions, forced marriages, buying and selling of women or girls and so on. The scenario is too dreadful to imagine. To avoid such a situation we need thousands upon thousands of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) countrywide to educate the public on this issue. They should hold discussions, go from door to door, talk to newly married couples and generate a movement to end the insane, practice of female foeticide.Side by side, they should conduct on an anti-dowry campaign, targeting the vulgar rich for perpetrating this evil. They can set up marriage bureaux where marriages are performed with the barest minimum expense. Further, these NGOs should detect clandestinely-run sex-determination clinics and laboratories and force the police to get them closed. Wherever corrupt police officials are seen protecting such outfits, they should also be exposed with the help of the media.Although the Constitution of India guarantees equal status to the sexes in every sphere of life, yet it stays only on paper. In every walk of life, the bias against women persists. One reason for this is the low status women have been given over the centuries in our male-dominated culture.It is this discrimination that must be targeted by the NGOs. By educating the people in the urban and rural areas, they can make the people aware of this bias. The NGOs can also force the government to create new opportunities for the females in every sphere of life. These NGOs can help end pay discrimination in the unorganised sector of the economy or in private firms against women. All this will go a long way in elevating the status of women in the Indian milieu.

The bold & the beautiful

#432

JAY......AnNy,

Somthing to think about proportionately 100 times greater problem in India compared to Honor Killing hype sited by you .....500 million Indians BELOW poverty & basic human STATUS!!!

Amnesty Home,Library,ASIA,SOUTH ASIA,INDIA

India

India in 2001 annual report, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997

View all India documents (please note this index may be large and take a while to download)



AI-index: ASA 20/029/2001 08/05/2001

India: Violence against women - a double discrimination

Authorities in India are failing to prevent violence against women and sometimes take an active part in it, Amnesty International said today in a new report launched as part of the organization`s international campaign against torture.

The report highlights patterns of violence including the beating, stripping and rape of women, in Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan. It focusses particularly on dalit (``untouchables``) and adivasi (tribal) women; their lack of access to justice, and the failure of the state to protect them at the local level. These women often suffer a double discrimination; discrimination on the basis of caste as well as gender.

Although high levels of violence against women are widely acknowledged by the authorities and some steps are being taken to address these problems, officials at the local level continue to ignore complaints, take bribes, and cover up the abuses.

``In a year declared by the Indian government as the Year of Empowerment of Women, Amnesty International hopes the government will take its policies seriously and not confine them to paper alone,`` the organization said.

``The organization is calling on the government to consider implementation of the comprehensive recommendations in the new report, which would help make the rights of women a reality in India.``

Many women don`t approach police for fear of dishonour or that they will be dismissed or further abused. An activist working with dalit women in Uttar Pradesh estimated that only 5% of cases of violence against women are registered. Many dalits are not aware of their rights under special legislation designed to protect them, and it is rare for police to voluntarily inform them.

Police are also accused of withholding and destroying evidence in many cases, usually at the behest of the accused with whom they may have caste or other links. Witnesses often withdraw their testimony after taking a bribe or being threatened by the accused and medical evidence is lost because simple procedures are not followed. The length of time it takes to pursue a case of torture through the courts encourages victims to make compromises under pressure.

Narbada, an 18-year-old woman from Udaipur district of Rajasthan told Amnesty International that she was raped by a Rajput (upper caste) landlord in March 2000. The attacker`s mother reportedly heard the victim`s screams but did nothing to stop her son. She then beat Narbada and told her not to go to the police. When Narbada tried to go to the police with her uncle, 50 Rajputs stopped them.

When they reached the police station two days later, they were verbally abused and told to pay Rs. 500 ($11) if they wanted to file a complaint, which they refused to do. They travelled three and half hours to the district headquarters where the Superintendent of Police recorded their complaint. Police were present during her medical examination which was conducted four weeks after the rape. When the case went to court, the public prosecutor tried to convince Narbada and her family to withdraw the complaint. Narbada and her family continue to face harassment from members of the Rajput community.

Women activists in India have played a crucial role in highlighting problems faced by women but they are often punished for it, becoming victims of violence themselves.

``The Indian government has a long way to go in bridging the gap between promises of protection for women and actual protection for women,`` Amnesty International said.

ENDS

public document

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

To receive a copy of the report ``India: The battle against fear and discrimination - The impact of violence against women in Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan`` please contact mcatsani@amnesty.org or for more information phone Amnesty International`s press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5729 web : http://www.amnesty.org. To find out more about Amnesty International`s campaign against torture visit www.stoptorture.org

P.a.n.k.a.j:

I am glad that your name`s halat`ae`zaar left a lasting effect on you :)

You`ve been making the same mistake repeatedly -it was time for a lesson.

Take Care.

PS: By the way, I have heard the name, as Punkhuj than Pankaj. The first one must have been derived from Punkh, whereas the second one must have had something to do with Pancakes :) Sorry, if it is otherwise, Pank.aj :)

AnNy,

WB asks Pakistan for effective loans recovery laws

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD. The World Bank in its updated proposed country Assistance Strategy for Pakistan for 2001-03 has asked Pakistan to strengthen legal and judicial reform laws.

According to this proposed three years country strategy paper, which has been prepared by the Bank after long consultation with the government officials during the recent months, the WB has called for laws to allow financial institutions to recover unpaid loans without lengthy court proceedings.

It also asks the government to provide courts with `adequate resources` to achieve effective loan recovery through the courts. The Bank has also asked the government to introduce certain reforms, which include increased independence for the State Bank of Pakistan so it can carry out its main function of maintaining price and financial sector stability.

//The above is a statement of the world bank from jung of today. They are not talking about corruption, they are not talking about the general blah blah like you the young and the educated of pakistan are.

For example, take honour killing, all the posts I have seen try to dismiss this as the influence of corruption. No it is not, there is some law in pakistan which says the `honour killing` is legal. There are cases in every country, take for example the `BMW case` in india, one rich young chap killed afew by driving a BMW seven series, in a drunken state. He was charged, but the case is dragging on and it is likely that he he would be found not guilty. That could be deemed corruption, `manipulation` you name it.

But in the case of honour killing in pakistan, no case is raised, no one is charged, because no crime has been committed. To give an example, if any one makes a funny face at you, it could offend you, but no where in the world the police will take note, because there is no law that says making funny face is an offence. In pakistan, honour killing is exactly like that. Remember the murder in the office of Asma Jahangir.

If you are really about changing anything, find out the law that makes honour killing legal, come up with a post like the world bank demand, state precisely what you want. If you can do that may be, in the eyes of what hamidm calls a curmedgen, you are a true young person with a spirit, an eagerness to change and the intelectual decipline to take the task on.

It is easier to chant the old song, pakistan is corrupt.

regards and best wishes.

jay.

Zahra

Okay, good way to make the other spell your name correctly. You literally raped my name.

M.J. Akbar`s history seems a little strange.

Here is the Britannica on the ``compromise`` that

M.J, Akbar alleges de Valera accepted. Moreover,

such a deal was not on the table for India.

Division of Ireland was implicit in the deal.

-Arun Gupta

``Ultimately, on Dec. 6, 1921, the Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed on behalf of Great Britain by David Lloyd George and leading members of his cabinet and on behalf of Ireland by Arthur Griffith, Michael Collins, and other members of the Republican cabinet.``

``The Anglo-Irish Treaty provided that Ireland should in future have the “same constitutional status in the community of Nations known as the British Empire as the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa with a parliament having powers to make laws for the peace, order and good government of Ireland and an Executive responsible to that parliament.”

``The new dominion was to be known as the Irish Free State. This peace agreement, ratified by the British Parliament, became operative when it had also been passed (January 1922) by a meeting of the Dáil. The new state comprised only 26 of the 32 counties; the northeastern area, known as Northern Ireland, remained part of the United Kingdom.``

``But the terms of the treaty had been accepted by the Irish signatories only because Lloyd George had threatened war on Ireland if they were rejected. Particularly obnoxious were a prescribed oath of allegiance to the British crown and the provisions allowing Northern Ireland to remain outside the new state. De Valera and the Republicans immediately repudiated the treaty, and, after its passage in the Dáil, de Valera resigned the presidency.``

------

One of the Gandhi-wrought changes in the Congress of 1920 that was so upsetting to the Old Guard :

The revised constitution of the Indian National Congress, largely Gandhi`s own handiwork, was approved at the Nagpur session of the Congress in December 1920; it defined the creed of the Congress `as the attainment of Swarajya by all legitimate and peaceful means`. Satyagraha was thus brought within the four corners of the constitution of the Congress.

The smallest unit of the Congress organization was to be the village Congress committee. A number of such committees were to be grouped into a Union Congress Committee. Union Committees were to be formed into tehsil or into district committees which in turn were to elect provincial committees. The All-India Congress Committee was to consist of about 350 members representing the Provinces.

The Congress became a broad-based organization: anyone who accepted its creed and paid four annas annual subscription could become its member. A small working committee led by the Congress president of the year constituted the highest executive of the Congress.

The Congress was thus reorganized not only on a more representative basis but in such a way that it could function efficiently between its annual sessions. It ceased to be the preserve of the upper and middle classes; its doors were opened to the masses in the smaller towns and villages whose political consciousness Gandhi was quickening.

(from http://www.mahatma.org.in/showbook.jsp?chap=chap026&book=og0001&link=og )

tahmed321 ali jinnah,

The national hero, father of the nation M.K. gandhi created a lot of clones in india, they wore khadar, were vegetarians, led a simple life. This generation is almost died down now, the young are not much interested in the gandhian life. In pakistan, slow as they are, this copying the hero appear to have just started. They are on the chowk, the jinnah clones.

They do not want anything truth full to be mentioned, like honour killing. What good will it do, we all know it, it can only hurt the feelings of the western educated.

The britsh, they are colonialbast//ds, they are exploiting the indians, we can rule ourselves, but what good will it do to shout and agitate in the streets, it will only up set the british and make the agitators tired. Why not just stay at home and sip some sherry.

Let us also post some nicities on the chowk, sip some sherry. world according to tahmed321 ali jinnah.

regards and best wishes to find some low alcohol sherry.

jay.

sarwari #421 ``I would prefer even a Pakistani Hindu to an Indian Muslim any time``

This is not a response to you - I am just thinking to myself below in this post: tahmed321 thinks:

Hmmmmmm...Should I educate this person that being a Pakistani or and Indian, a Muslim or a Hindu, has nothing to do with whether a person is a good person or a bad person, a person commanding respect or a person deserving ridicule...but no, that was the job of her parents and kindergarten teachers. I guess they didnt do their job too well, did they...but should I now do their job???but I just sent a post educating Bharatiya Musalman that by calling someone the descendent of a forced convert from a ``low caste`` and thinking that is an insult means that he needs to understand that being a low caste or high caste has nothing to do with whether a person is a good person...and I wont even get into what kind of a musalman he is...and then there is Jay who refuses to be educated...Maybe I should start charging the parents of these people money for the time I spend trying to do their job for them...maybe I better forget it...

Oh No!!! I guess I wrote this all down....oh no, I think I am going to send my thoughts out on chowk...this will hurt the feelings of Ms. Sarwari, or Mr. Musulman, of Sir Jay...Oh no!! I cant help it....(Hand moves cursor to send button, gets ready to perform left click...

Sarwari,

It is sad when people like Bhartiya Musalman no doubt motivated by personal indignation make it a public thing.

Aisha how long are your rejected Indian Muslim suitors going to take it out on Pakistan?

Long Live Pakistan!

Punk`H`uj:

I ``will`` seriously take your suggestion under consideration.

Take Care

Z`a`hr`a`

PS: Hope I was not responding on behalf of someone else.

Zehra#417

Hey that looked promising at the start. Thoda kahani aage baDaiye. Introduce some more chracters into the story. Then it will be more funny.

Bhartia Musalman,

I would prefer even a Pakistani Hindu to an Indian Muslim any time, so keep your suggestions to yourself.

Pakistan Zindabad

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari

It does not sadden me that a bhartiya musalman can be so delusional. It is not that he accuses us of being `arabicized` for any sane person who makes a trip to Pakistan will clearly make it very clear that Pakistan is far from an Arabicized state. It is not that he tells me that Pakistan is a failed state just because Pakistan isnt making ICBMs instead of feeding its poor (besides any sane person knows that Pakistan doesnot have the kind of abject poverty that Calcutta for example has), it is not that he tells us that Pakistan is state without History because even if we didnot (though we have a rich history) I am a Pakistani and millions of other citizens of Pakistan are Pakistani because they were born as such and will remain as such.

It is his (il)logic, his insanity, his ignorance coupled with arrogance, his confusion, and his out and out bigotry that bothers me. For the sake of the few Indian friends I have who are truly decent people, I hope and pray India has more to offer than these fools. For 50 years this Indian still considers himself a `member of the brotherhood of Islam` and accuses Jinnah `of being responsible of making Indian Muslims impoverished.`

1) For your information all leaders of Pakistan from Jinnah to Musharaff have repeatedly said that Indian Muslims are Indians and Indians only.

2)Pakistan`s distinct culture has never been Arab and that is an undeniable fact.

3)Fundamentalists, and Khilafatists were opposed to the creation of Pakistan. Pakistan was created by moderate Muslims who were previously in the Congress Party.

4) Fundamentalist Parties like Ahrar, Jamaat e Islami, Jamiat e Ulema Hind were either in alliance with the Congress or Tooth and nail opposed to the creation of Pakistan.

5) Indian Muslims tend to be much more fanatical and Arabicized that Pakistani Muslims.

Example I am yet to find an International Pakistani Student Muslim female who wears the Hijab and Indian one who doesnt!

6) IT WOULD HELP IF PEOPLE LIKE BHARTIYA MUSLIM DIDNOT MAKE THESE SWEEPING BIGOTED STATEMENTS WITHOUT EVEN GOING TO PAKISTAN.

7) I AM A PAKISTANI FIRST SECOND AND LAST, and if renouncing the brotherhood of Islam means being rid of the notion of being a `bhai` to a confused fundamentalist fanatic like yourself.... well I renounce ... I renounce .... I renounce!

8) Yasser Latif Hamdani lives in Gamma Sigma Fraternity on 19 Union Street New Brunswick NJ 08901... take Turn Pike from Holland Tunnel... and take the New Brunswick exit which 8 or 9 ...

then ask for College Ave, Union street is right behind college ave... I dont scare easily by threats of confused immature cowards!

9) Pakistan is here, and here to stay, and Pakistan will exist to eternity. It might not be perfect, but you wont find the conditions of living in Pakistan as bad as Calcutta for example... One day Inshallah we will make Pakistan a Beacon of light for the world.

10) LONG LIVE PAKISTAN!

Shammi

The write up by M.J. Akbar is not a very rational analysis of the events. Let us take for example this following para.



``Gandhi, in fact, settled for defeat and withdrew the non-cooperation movement that had unhinged the British by 1921, leaving his followers as bewildered as his opponents``

Please note the word ``defeat``. From the accounts I have read very few people have called it a ``defeat``. I can only conclude that it is writer`s prejudice garbed in rationality that is speaking. Gandhi had declared it a ``non violent`` movement, and when he found that people had lost patience and resorted to violence in Chauri Chaura, he called off his movement. Of Course if anybody disagreed with him, he could have started a different movement. Do you think at that time when Britain was reigning supreme, Britain would have offered Home rule frightened by the acts of violence by a handful of people. Keep in mind that the awareness of the harms of British rule had not spread sufficiently amongst the masses at that time. British would have unleashed a reign of terror, and most of the people would have merely watched as spectators. The aim to spread awareness among masses would have been pruned in infancy. Anyways, it seems to me Mr Akbar`s analysis seems to suffer from his own prejudices. You can never predict what would happen if one incident in the past(1921) was different due to the inherent uncertainity and chance factors that play an important role. Instead of acknowledging this element of uncertainity he prefers to use an absolute word like ``defeat`` that does not convince a cross-questioning reader.

Sincerely

sarwari #409 ``we will bomb you if your predominantly Hindu government tickles our sensitive parts``

Nothing serious, but this sentence had my mind drifting away...only it was not the governments doing the tickling.

May be we can have an Indo-Pak tickling contest :)

Bhartiya Musalman Jeeeee:[For your eyes only]

Masoom Interactors:Bhago Bhago Chup Jao Chup Jao..

Some Readers: Kyoun? Kyaa Hooa?

Masoom Interactors: [All the M.interactors Upnae Ammi Abbu Keh Pass Bhaag Kur Chup Gayae.]
Just to let the readers know that Masoom Interactors often do that when they are scared of NaAT`Zee. [Sehmae Hoaae Interactors]

Some Readers: Kya Koi Dragon Hae?
Ya Turram Khan?
Fati`hae` Maisoor?
Ya Ghalib Kaa descendant?

Masoom Interactors[with worry tupko-fying from their shakul]:
Abhi Daekhnae Kaa Mau`qaa` Hee Naheen Milaa:-(!
Siraf Naam Hee Kee Haibut Dil Pur Chaaaaa Gayee Hae` :( ----- OooooooOooooooOoooooooOooooooooo[frightened Oooooo]

Welcome Welcome!!!!
Khush Amadeed!
Khush Amadeed!
Jee Ayaa Noon!

Best Regards :-)

Yanqui #218 ``Sorry - I only meant illiterate, gay feudal twits living in/off the U.S. `` Too late. The cat is out of the bag and your post is there for all to see. You said the entire sub-continent was corrupt, and nothing you say after that can erase it. As for the filth in the remainder of your post, that is no substitute for anything intelligent, and demonstrates that you are not a mere retard, but a foul-mouthed retard.

Goldsteen #225 Ha! Ha! So you are a professional lawyer you say. I pity your clients since you probably lose every case and end up in jail yourself for contempt of court. As for the filth and hate in your posts, you have provided an excellent demonstration of the kind of individual you are.

sarwari #409 ``we will bomb you if your predominantly Hindu government tickles our sensitive parts``

please, lets not get carried away. :-)

ref: YLh #406

``Jinnah had brought the TNT to an end.``

Do you seriously think that ideas like that can be released when needed, and rebottled and stored again when their use is over? and that too by any one individual?

From today`s Dawn Opinion section, an excerpt from an article by MJ Akbar:

``India could have got home rule from the British at the same time as Ireland did, in 1921, when the British Empire had weakened from loss of blood in the First World War. But de Valera settled for a compromise and Gandhi did not. Gandhi, in fact, settled for defeat and withdrew the non-cooperation movement that had unhinged the British by 1921, leaving his followers as bewildered as his opponents. That is a much longer story. But it is worth recording that terminology from Ireland formed a substantive part of the discourse of the Indian national movement: India and Ireland were the first nations to rise against British rule. Repeatedly, and till Gandhi accepted partition, the Mahatma would insist that he would not allow any Ulster in India (Ulster is that part of Northern Ireland that was partitioned and kept for Protestants when the British gave Catholic Ireland home rule). ``

``One can imagine khadi-clad nationalists in Arrah and Azamgarh chanting ``Hindustan mein Ulster nahin banega, nahin banega!`` But what if Gandhi had accepted home rule and a form of swaraj rather than insisting on purna swaraj? Swaraj too would have led us to full independence and a republic after the Second World War (Ireland became a republic in 1948). But the journey would have been under the charge of Indians rather than the British alone. With consequences better than 1947 or not? At least it is a good question.``

re: dost-mittar

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I might try out the food at a gurdwara one of these days :-).

Regards.

p.s. Not a single unit (to my knowledge) which later became the Pakistan Army mutinied in 1857. In some places I have even seen the battle honors displayed proudly - ``1857 Dehli``. Punjab as a whole stayed loyal to the English.

bhartiya musalman:

There is a limit to disloyalty. By attempting to bash Pakistanis, without the reference to reasons, you have shown us your ugly insides...and believe me, statistically speaking you don`t do much good for the numbers of politically disillusioned on your end. If you are an Indian Muslim, work towards getting more Muslims into different fields where they can anchor success, because that is an area to work on...you could put your ``Muslim Nationhood`` to some constructive, practicable and divisible use... Like YLH said, be loyal to your own county...don`t defecate where you eat...by using hatred for Pakistanis to attach and belong where you don`t feel needed you are climbing a ladder that`s up the wrong wall.

Let me make one more thing clear and allow me to get my true feelings out here, fools like you, will not be allowed to get away with painting a picture of Pakistan like its needing any person form India in any way. You to us are simply a bunch of Indians, we will bomb you if your predominantly Hindu government tickles our sensitive parts...so focus on having control over your government`s undisciplined impulses and don`t you ever, EVER, look this way again, because we`ll pop your eyes out for the betrayal of human devotion and the waste of time you give us with your confusion.

PS: Read article.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

Eklavya #397 Lincoln had a great view on life. His reminder to worry about the future generations, not the past, is a great reminder for all of us who cannot see beyond our little cubby holes. His words, ``With malice towards none...`` are another example of why Lincoln truly ``belongs to the ages`` (as someone said when he breathed his last).

Future generations belong to all of us.

Regards.

bharatiya musulman #398 ``I am here to debate with and expose the intellectual shallowness, religious bigotry, narrow mindedness, empthy headed machismo attitude and racist ideology of the Pakistani cowards. ``

Ha! Just when I thought the Keyboard Pehlwaans had decided to take off from chowk for the summer, we have this fine specimen here. I hope to God you were dead serious when you wrote that, since then we can expect more of this fun stuff. Some of the more established Pehlwaans were beginning to seem like a broken record.

I am one intellectually shallow, religiously bigoted, narrow minded, empty headed machisma attitude, racist ideologue, Pakistani coward who will be rooting for you - so dont stop with this post!!

re: dost-mittar

``I agree that Ranjit Singh`s rule extended to Peshawar and maybe beyond. But how can one deduce conversions therefrom? The Sikh rule gave way to the British who immediately bestowed upon them the distinction of their favoured ``martial race``. What incentive was there then for them to convert? In any case, there have been regular population censuses of Punjab since 1861 and they do not indicate any significant change in the religious mix of the population between then and 1941.``

Although like I said before, I am no expert on the subject (the topic of conversions, forced or otherwise, seems to be an Indian favourite) and I have`nt looked at the Punjab Gazateer for quite some time, but allow me to express a few thoughts. According to you there is no data available before 1861. If I remember correctly, the Sikh rule was at its height around/before 1830`s. Sikhs were not the only blue-eyed`s of the Brits, they had quite a deep admiration bordering on affection for the PMs also. The recruitment proportion of the two in the Army was also quite at par. But all this would be post-1840s.

Implicit in your statement are a couple of points: Conversions can only take place under duress - and although Hindu to Muslim conversion makes sense, Sikh to Muslim is not probable.

On the first part you are only partially right in my opinion. We in Pakistan are taught that the spread of Islam is soley due to the teachings and influence of Sufis and the sword had nothing to do with it-which is the other extreme. I think the answer as always is somewhere in between. Whereas upheavals like the partition can change the demographics dramatically in a short period of time - there is no reason to believe that people can`t change their beliefs in periods of peace.

The second point, I would like you to elaborate on. Why do you think Sikh-Muslim conversion is not possible/probable? What is so unconventional about it?

Regards.

Bhartiya

And how dare you claim that you are here for an intellectual debate...the views you have put up are not only lacking in intellectual honesty but are the direct result and product of lack of Intellectual rigor.

Have you even read my article? Is there any doubt of the facts I have mentioned? I havent seen any Indian deny any facts? What intellectual shallowness are you here to expose any way? Your own? I suppose? You are nothing but a confused fascist fanatic, who has still not come to terms with the fact that you are Indian... had you done so, then you wouldnt be talking of a greater India, and a stronger Muslim community.

Jinnah had brought the TNT to an end. In Pakistan he asked us to forget the TNT. Even in India he asked the Muslims to remain loyal to their state.

Since you obviously still think in terms of Hindu vs Muslim evident from your first post, you are the living testament of the TNT..... if TNT means Pakistan and India, then you cannot decry it because Pakistan and India exist and will exist till eternity. If you mean Muslims and Hindus, that you prove by yourself and by your warped logic.

Imran 367

Not only are you delusional but you didnt even bother to read my posts. I know a lot of Indians, Muslims and Hindus alike, so please dont assume.

Indian Muslims tend to be more fanatical and more arabicized simply because they have a contradiction between an Indian National identity

which is predominantly Hindu because Hindus are in Majority, and their `brotherhood of Islam`.

You are not being loyal to India, you are being passionate about your hatred for Pakistan and thats it. Your delusions about the nationhood of Pakistan reflects your lack of knowledge and your bias. All that is your loss. Jinnah explicitly asked Indian Muslims to be loyal to India, and that is what we ask you to do. It is you who keeps harping about the brotherhood of Islam.

I dont care you are a devout muslim or not. That just goes to prove the initial hypothesis, the fundamentalist fanatics were pro-Congress and only the progressive Muslims supported the Pakistan demand.

In the end I require only this of you.

a) Stop calling me bhai because I dont believe in the brotherhood of Islam other than what is beneficial for Pakistan.

b) A anti-Pakistan fascist fanatic bigoted Indian Muslim like yourself cannot be my bhai, and I take it as an insult.

c) I hope that you leave this delusions and become truly loyal to your country, because if your creed is the creed of Abu al Kalaam Azaad, the Khilafatist fools, or that of the Ahrar Party and

the Jamaat e Islami who opposed the creation of PAKISTAN, then it is my belief that you cannot be accademically intellectually true to the ideal secular India.

d)Try to read more Pre partition History, and realize that by giving the example of the khilafatists you cannot and will not endear yourself to the Modern Pakistani Nationalist myself.

e) Be a man enough to read the post that I posted.

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re: dost-mittar

I am not that knowledgeable, but nice of you to say that. A little ways from Peshawar is the Jamrud Fort. I think it was built by the Sikhs (Hari Singh Nalva ?). Anyway, the fort has an excellent design and construction.

re: bharatiya_m

``I am here to debate with and expose the intellectual shallowness, religious bigotry, narrow mindedness, empthy headed machismo attitude and racist ideology of the Pakistani cowards.``

Dear Friend, Long before you came up with the idea of DIA, Jay and Sadna had co-founded the RIA (Retarded Individuals Association) with the manifesto very close to what you wrote in your post. I suggest you apply to them for a membership.

For your DIA, I hereby volunteer Maulana Asif Naqshbandi (ra) for a lifetime membership. PLEASE accept him.

Harimau: You write ``You people believe that it is illiteracy that is the problem in Pakistan. No; the mindset that created Pakistan is the problem in Pakistan. ``

Pearl`s widow (who actually would have a reason to hate Pakistan, unlike you) knows better (see my extract below). The Indian people who humiliated the BJP Juggernaut in recent elections by pointing out that for them the issue was economics know better. The Pakistani people (the overwhelming majority of whom in recent polls gave economics their number one concern, and Kashmir a neglibible 4%) know better. Even Musharaff (yes!) who I myself heard a couple of weeks back speaking passionately for two and a half hours on poverty alleviation and law and order and only 15 minutes (and that too in a light-hearted manner) on relations with India knows better. Anybody who knows of the past acts of the hindutvas in India knows better.

You and others like you on chowk know only one thing: that you hate Pakistan. You may be educated brown sahibs who have memorized all the IT circuits, and exchange insults from the comfort of your homes, but you people know nothing about the realities of Pakistan and India and you know nothing about good sense.

re: tahmed321 # 395

thahmed bhai,

All this obsession some people have with ancestry and geneology reminds me of the only true definition of geneology: geneology is the art and science of tracing yourself back to people better than you. :)

Given this definition, main kuchch hypotheses arz karta hoon.

H1: The less certain one is of oneself, the greater his or her concern with geneology is likely to be.

H2: The more challenged or threatened a person feels, the greater his or her search of geneological greatness or purity is likely to be.

H3: The less a person sees in his or her future, the greater his obsession with geneology is likely to be.

And, was it our good friend Lincoln who said that we should be concerned less with how great our grandparents were and more with what our grandchildren will become?

Regards.

Bapu #175 I believe you have now been educated (by rajanjua and others) that only a yahoo (not the fancy internet kind, just plain old dangar)still thinks that a person is ``low`` on account of ancestry (jat in case of your post). Permit me to round out this fine public education being given to you by adding that a dangar (y`know, like ``khota`` or ``khachar``) also thinks that a person is ``low`` on account of mode of employment (``doormen of restaurants in Delhi`` in case of your post).

I shall not comment on your ancestry, but looks like you were not listening when you were being taught these basics by your elders (who I am sure were fine people, but probably gave up on you and are grateful you now stay out of their hair thanks to the internet). Cheers.

re: dost-mittar

Sat Sri Akal,

The Muslim population could not have appeared over-nite. It must have been a slow process. At one point the Sikh rule extended all the way to Peshawer and I am just extrapolating. On one extreme you have the pakistanis who don`t even like to mention that they were after all hindus and on the other extreme you have the bahratiya_m who needs to prove in every post that his penis is still uncircumcised. I personally don`t see what`s the big deal.

re: Pankaj

Ancestors of most Pakistanis were either Hindus or Sikhs at some point in time. I am not sure why Booboo would make such a big deal out of it.

Regards.

p.s. Janjuas are Rajputs.

rajanjua # 387

``Jats are not lowly my dear fellow. Heck they are some of the finest people you`ll ever come across-lively, hardworking and with big hearts-they also happen to form the main defense of your country-show some respect for those who have given their lives defending your puny little ass in Dilli.``

I agree absolutely. Thumbs up.

Rjanjua#387

Perhaps people feel that since you or your ancestors in some way were remotely related to anything(Jats) that smacks of any connection with horrible Hindus, by association you are also bad. I dont know why this guy Bapu is bringing someone`s ancestory into question at all. Anyways you know the best.

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My dear Dr. Poonawala:

Welcome to Chowk.

I agree with everything you say about Kashmir -- but WHY are you after Ras?

Ras -- like hamidm, tahmed, sameerjb, the ``air`` generals, Ferozk, aNny, scout, kiran, saminashah, saima shah and many others -- is one of the moderate, progressive, open minded Pakistanis -- and he has to be -- he is a journalist -- and he is only as much unbiased and impartial -- as any Indian or an American journalist would be about India or America -- so what`s is wrong with that?

Good to read your posts.

hasan

Poonawala (various posts): Welcome to chowk, and we cant have enough people to talk about peace between India and Pakistan. Ordinary people want peace so they get a chance to improve their lives, the intellectuals want it as you correctly point out. The religious parties that are creating the civil war in Kashmir are the problem. The smart thing for India to do is to isolate them and their supporters from the rest of Pakistan, and to demonstrate friendship with Pakistan.

YLH,

Congratulations on your graduation!

-narain

Dear Booboo,

Jats are not lowly my dear fellow. Heck they are some of the finest people you`ll ever come across-lively, hardworking and with big hearts-they also happen to form the main defense of your country-show some respect for those who have given their lives defending your puny little ass in Dilli.

Now before the rest of your remaining 0.01% brain gets permanently damaged-May I ask why you have showered me with so much attention?

Reply #: 381

rajanjua

You ,Rajanjua,a name of darwan & doormen of restaurants in Delhi,yourself admitted heritage of lowly,jat ,anparh,who like a worm ,tried to climb the ladder of respectability by becoming name sake muslim.

Now your true color shows how superficial you are ,You sell your Imaan ,every few generations conveniently ,but this is the end of your generations of charade & plagarism.All your posts are plagarised from my previous posts or others ,u Unimaginative thick skull jat janjhua !!!!

Dear Dost-Mittar, PM, Sadhana, and all others

Any serious student of history, IMO, should go through the ``Delhi Diary`` which contains the thoughts of Gandhi as recorded by him in his diary kept between 1946(roughly) and 1948. There I find Gandhi in his final evolved state. Several of his musings throw valuable light on some pertinent issues that are being much debated. Here I am posting few such extracts from this diary.

EXTRACTS FROM THE DELHI DIARY



1.

13th November 1947

`` Freedom without equality for all, irrespective of race or religion is not worth having for Congress. In other words, the Congress or any other govt. representative of Congress must remain a popular body, leaving every individual to follow that form of religion which best appeals to him without interference from the state. There is so much in common between people living in the same state under the same flag owing undivided allegiance to it. There is so much in common between man and man that it is a marvel that there can be any quarrel on the ground of religion. Any creed or dogma which coerces others into following one uniform practice is a religion only in the name, for a religion worth a name does not admit any coercion. Anything that is done under coercion has only a short lease of life. It is bound to die.``

2. 12 Sept. 1947

`` Anger breeds revenge and spirit of revenge is today responsible for all horrible happenings here and elsewhere. What good it will do to Muslims to avenge the happenings in Delhi or for the Sikhs/Hindus to avenge cruelties on our co-religionists in the Frontier and West Punjab. If a man or a group of men go mad, should everyone follow the suit? I warn Hindus and Sikhs that by killing and loot and arson they are destroying their own religions. I claim to be a student of religion and I know that no religion teaches madness. Islam is no exception. I implore all of you to stop youe insane actions at once. Let not future generations say that we lost the sweet bread of freedom because we could not digest it...``

Reference: Delhi Diary by M.K. Gandhi, Navjeevan publishing house, Ahmedabad, March 1948.

Dear Dost-Mittar, PM, Sadhana, and all others

Any serious student of history, IMO, should go through the ``Delhi Diary`` which contains the thoughts of Gandhi as recorded by him in his diary kept between 1946(roughly) and 1948. There I find Gandhi in his final evolved state. Several of his musings throw valuable light on some pertinent issues that are being much debated. Here I am posting few such extracts from this diary.

EXTRACTS FROM THE DELHI DIARY



1.

13th November 1947

`` Freedom without equality for all, irrespective of race or religion is not worth having for Congress. In other words, the Congress or any other govt. representative of Congress must remain a popular body, leaving every individual to follow that form of religion which best appeals to him without interference from the state. There is so much in common between people living in the same state under the same flag owing undivided allegiance to it. There is so much in common between man and man that it is a marvel that there can be any quarrel on the ground of religion. Any creed or dogma which coerces others into following one uniform practice is a religion only in the name, for a religion worth a name does not admit any coercion. Anything that is done under coercion has only a short lease of life. It is bound to die.``

2. 12 Sept. 1947

`` Anger breeds revenge and spirit of revenge is today responsible for all horrible happenings here and elsewhere. What good it will do to Muslims to avenge the happenings in Delhi or for the Sikhs/Hindus to avenge cruelties on our co-religionists in the Frontier and West Punjab. If a man or a group of men go mad, should everyone follow the suit? I warn Hindus and Sikhs that by killing and loot and arson they are destroying their own religions. I claim to be a student of religion and I know that no religion teaches madness. Islam is no exception. I implore all of you to stop youe insane actions at once. Let not future generations say that we lost the sweet bread of freedom because we could not digest it...``

Reference: Delhi Diary by M.K. Gandhi, Navjeevan publishing house, Ahmedabad, March 1948.

Re: PM

Well I am glad you thought it was funny. Syed Booboo, however, is not amused at all. He thinks you are a gora who needs enema and I am your Hindu scumbag friend :-). I am sure tests would confirm that he has been bitten by a keeRa of the Naqshbandi species. I think we should remind him that one of the few individuals who have been cursed by the Almighty Himself (by name) in the Holy Quran is none other than the Prophet`s own uncle. Was he not an Arab?

Regards,

Dear BooBoo,

If you needed enema, why did`nt you say that before, my dear fellow.

Sincerely,

Ashok Janjua

Krashid,

Rashid Sa`ab this guy has serious disorders and needs your attention. Primary symptoms included verbal diahrrea but now the patient complains of mental constipation.

Dost Mittar:

Let`s not forget, what is ``Tehkaa`` ?

OK!!!

Take Care :-) :) :-)

Oh and another thing... you can stop crying about self determination and all that good stuff. The answer has been found!

http://www.theonion.com/onion3723/west_bank.html

Long live Ethnikistan

Latif Chappu

Re: Yawaah 325

You call me a fanatic & wish that I was dead.

OK then...

We all know who the fanatic here is... and as far as tit for tat goes...

HOPE YOU DIE REAL SOON TOO, YOU LITTLE PRICK!!

So there... :)

Your favourite mortician

Latif Chappu

DostMittar,

Did you understand anything from Zahra`s answer?

PM, you?

sadna,

UR welcome!

regards,

DM-G:

Hmmmmmh...Dost Mittar, it seems that you`ve started having a good handle on producing counter arguments :) :) :)

Mubrook! Mubrook!

PS: OK, let me be a little specific as well as ambiguous here. You did not define the fine line in your previous post and that was where I became alert and expressed my concerns. Now, how the line should have looked like and sounded like? I wil leave that on your disposal.

Ba-khabar Zarai` Sae Pata Chala Hae Keh Google Search Engine is being used extensively by some of the wiser ones on Chowk[whisper]. Kindly consult Mukurmee`o`Mohtarmee Hazrat JB as he was the pioneer of introducing that search engine to many on Chowk.

Happy Searching!

Regards

janjua sahib:

My sides are still sore after:

``How is that an evidence of superiority. Records from the jahiliya time period confirm that they were the scum of the earth who required divine intervention for their islah. And even that did`nt help - Just look at them now.``

and

``...its not too late to be potty trained.``

Didn`t see this humorous side of you before.

rgds

PM



Sadna,

Good questions posed in #358. Hopefully our friend will get over the threat-from-East perception soon enough to realize where the real rot oringinates. Thanks for posting :)

Don`t you think Pakistanis should be worried more about the following than whether that loser Jinnah was secular or not.

http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,515196,00.html

Brain drain worsens chaos in Pakistan

Burhan Wazir

Sunday July 1, 2001

The Observer

Pakistan is facing a massive brain drain as foreign embassies are deluged with record numbers of visa applications from Pakistanis desperate to leave their politically unstable, economically chaotic country.

As Pakistan`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, defended his decision to declare himself President, dismissing the possibility of an early election, the United States revealed last week a tripling of applications for non-immigrant visas over the year up to October 2000.

The biggest number of applications for British visas are from Pakistan. And Canada, the destination of first choice for Pakistanis, has received 40 per cent more immigrant visa applications in the first quarter of this year than in the same period last year.

Doctors, lawyers and IT professionals are leading the exodus, but a previously entrenched social group is also clamouring to leave. The lines of malnourished people who gather daily outside the US Embassy in Islamabad are increasingly made up of labourers and farm-hands.

`Pakistanis from all walks of life have sought to live abroad since the Fifties,` says Abdel Noor Zaiback, deputy US consul-general in Islamabad. `But there is a worrying trend towards even agrarian workers - farmers and farm labourers - wanting to leave. That perhaps indicates a sense of disillusionment among Pakistanis at large.`

Pakistan has been in disarray since 1999, when Musharraf led a military coup against Prime Minister Nawaz Shar-if`s government. Only 54 years after the country`s independence, a Gallup survey conducted last September found 62 per cent of the adult population indicated a preference for relocation abroad.

A similar survey in 1984 - when another dictator, General Zia-ul-Haq, won a referendum that set up a return to party politics the following year - found only 17 per cent of Pakistanis were eager to emigrate.

`If a society is moving upwards - and by that I mean the country is a stable democracy - then there is a general feeling of progress that can be measured by wealth, health and education,` says Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy, a social commentator at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad.

`Currently we have a country that is unable to educate its people, has no political system and has seen an alarming growth in fundamentalism.`

Musharraf`s administration has been unable to heal the country`s deep sectarian and religious divides. Tensions between Shia and Sunni Muslims, coupled with the rise of the fiercely orthodox religious schools, or madrassahs, plague the country.

A poor standard of secondary and higher education lies at the heart of the exodus - a recent exhibition of 19 British universities in Islamabad attracted 3,000 hopefuls in one day. Some 3,500 Pakistani students are studying for degrees in the UK, with the number expected to rise to nearly 6,000 by 2005.

Last April, the Federal Minister of Science and Technology, Professor Ataur Rahman, announced a plan to woo back expatriate IT professionals. Scientists and engineers would have their salaries raised by 800 per cent and new IT universities would be established.

`We are starting major education programmes across Pakistan,` said Rahman. `We are trying to bring back our brightest people from abroad. The only difference between us and developed countries like the UK is education. There is no dearth of talent and skilled people here.`

`That might be the case,` says Ahmed Bilal Mehboob, chief executive of the Institute of Overseas Pakistanis in Lahore.

`But wealth remains in the hands of a few. And educated Pakistanis say they get fairer treatment overseas. In Pakistan, the system is based on favours and this syndrome is getting worse.`

Macgupta #346

{{ It is on public record that his famous counterpart, the Q-e-Azam said such things about Hindus.}}

Source please. Thanks.

bharatiya musalman #367
``the Hindus have evolved a much better and much more successfull society than you have.``

bharatiya musalman, its too early to say, and if it does happen, it will not be to the credit of the `Hindus`, it will be to the credit of Indians of all shades.

Fuzair #142 White supremacists in the US have in fact been very much the target of US law enforcing agencies (in Waco, Texas), as has the Mafia (remember Al Capone who was arrested in the 1930`s for tax evasion or some such crime since, like Osama ben Laden, he took great pains to distance himself from the scene of his crimes), and the drug lords in more recent years, and even politicans are not exempt(even Presidents, like Nixon and Clinton).

The fact is, the first order of the day for any society (US or Pakistan) should be to put away those who cause violence. This may call for racial or ethnic profiling in the US, and so be it. The additional hassles (if any) are a small price to pay for having a law-abiding society.

In Pakistan tactics other than racial profiling may be needed: the best way to put the mullahs out of business is to take away their guns, take away their funds, and (perhaps most important) take away their convenient ideology that has allowed them to drag religion into politics - in fact a priestly class has no role in Islam.

anarayan #343
Thanks for your very interesting posting.

Dear Bapu, Please go to the bathroom when you need to take a dump. Its never too late to get potty-trained.

Reply #: 357

rajanjua

You sir,

Are a scum & minority of Pakistan(non muslim) &shamefully masquarade as majority muslim Pakistani.Sooner or later i hope they(Pak mujaheeds) get you & DOWN WITH INDIAN WHO SUPPORT MINORITIES LIKE YOU ,for being GADDAR.

Asif N. #344: I hope you are not suggesting that Arabs, of equal character, are superior to non-Arabs, of equal character. This goes completely against Islam, itself. Please clarify.

One cannot use historical remarks by individuals to pass judgement, one way or the other, over races, individuals etc. Arabs of the 7th century are different from Arabs of the current century. Moreover, each individual should be judged by the content of his/her character, not by their ethnicity, race or even religion. This is stated in my favorite verse from the Quran,which points out that Muslims aren`t the sole inheritors of reward:

``Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.``(verse 62, The Cow)

Also, one should also not became a slave to jurisdictions passed by others, specially if those jurisdictions were passed hundreds of years ago. I am very hesitant to follow, ``scholars`` who are bent upon, ``laying down the law`` without leaving room for disagreement. I am also very wary of teachers who state the, ``truth`` to their pupils, rather than encouraging and providing the tools to the students to find the truth on their own.

Personally speaking, I am becoming more and more convinced daily that all Islam requires is the Quran and a lot of common sense. Everything else is just beaurecracy. It furthur requires people who study the Quran (but not as their sole profession), and are humble enough to know their own limitations, and thus only provide suggestions on its interpretations, but do not dictate their interpretations as the sole truth.

The Prophet and the society he created around himself should be used as the model. However, I am not convinced that all the Hadiths, having been passed on over so many hundreds of years without being written, are genuine. Based on this, I think they should be only considered suggestions and never be a part of the law.

Here is an interesting article on Jinnah in The Tribune of Chandigarh :

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20000416/edit.htm#1

by P. H. Vaishnav

A liberal in the constituency of fanatics

Lessons from Jinnah`s life

The article outlines Jinnah`s career as a liberal, culminating with his famous speech

``Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

``I cannot emphasise it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community — because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalees, Madrasis, and so on — will vanish......

``You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan..... You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State....

``We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.... We should keep (this) in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State....”

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The conclusion that the author draws is :

``Jinnah`s life and the character that Pakistan has assumed is an illustration of what happens when liberals, be it Jinnah or Bhutto or Musharraf, enlist the support of fanatical forces. It has a lesson for the Congressmen in our own country and the so-called moderate Akalis who cynically manipulated Bhindrawale. The ``liberals`` among the Sangh Parivar will also inevitably have to reckon with the Bajrang Dal, the VHP, the Shiv Sena and the other diehards of the Parivar.``

-Arun Gupta

Pardesi,

Thanks.

I was almost thinking I wasted 2 hrs!