An Eulogy For The Hawks

bhartiya _ _ _ _ _:

Your confused and incoherent nonsense needs no reply but kust for fun and to point out why u desparately need a shrink here goes:

``..our societies, which range from Indonesia to

Morocco -They are all in an economic mess: Pak is in a state of collapes; Turkey desperately needs an I...``

The point here is not r they an economic mess or not but rather is ISALM responsible for it. My confused friend the economic mess is there as a legacy of colonialism and slave regimes in these countries supported by the enlightened west. It is precisely the lack of Islamic values which r the root cause of all this.

``Not a single successful democracy - even Turkey is high handed and hence finds its membership to the EU.....Most are ruled by Kings, Sultans, Amirs, Dictators, and General Sahebs``

Agian u twist the facts, precisely bcos the SHariah is NOT the law these problems arise, Islam did not sanction these regimes these r proxy govts of the so called democratic WEST

``Low levels of education; Not a single Muslim Nobel Laureate (remember, AbdusSalam is a Qadiani and a Non Muslim)``

Low education levels I agree, again IS isalam responsible?

Next part is a lack of info on ur part or a blatant lie. Ahmed Zewail was awarded the 1999 nobel prize in Chemistry. DO u need to lie in order to support ur nonsensical theories?

``Abysmal Human Rights Records..including torture and killing of members of the Muslim Ummah..Shiis killed in Pak and Iraq, Kurds in Turkey, Hazaras and Tajiks in Afghanistan, Biharis in Bengal-desh and the list goes on and...``

Lets take this one at a time

Shias in Pakistan: All major religious groups condemn this, only a handful of idiots are not representative of Islam, btw the question here was Does Isalm demand this?



Iraq and Turkey: Ruled by declared anti islam anti shariah regimes, this goes against u just think before writing down things.



Biharis: Killed no doubt mercilessly but by a secularized army, it is precisely ISlam and Shariah we need, ur post make that clear enough.



``Abuse of women and Legal Slavery...slavery still practiced in Arabian peninsula...Arabs, for all their talk of the Equality of Islam were the greatest Slavers and continue to believe in this odious institution``.

Again u confuse two separate issues:

Women: When u speak of status of a group in religion u shd look at the laws (Shariah). Now take any code and compare the protection (legal) given to women in Islam (For one take some time to read the Nikah Nama, ull find that a lot of legal cover is given to women.

The evils u point out r not there due to islam but rather because of a lack of it.

Slaves: Again the issue is not wht xyz is doing but rather is it sanctioned by ISlam. No my simple minded muslim friend, the last words of the prophet (SAW) were ``Take care of slaves and remember to say your prayers``

Why did Islam allow slavery it was a political and military need of the times, slavery is now explicitly prohibited.

As far as so called muslim countries are concerned there is an acute lack of Islam. Shariah IS the solution.

``Archaic legal codes...based on tribal Bedouin cusotms (is`nt this really what Sharia is?) Stoning women to death, chopping of hands, beheading criminals - all occur in Iraq, Saudi, Afghanistan``

No my friend Shariah is a code of rights, as with any law punishments have to be there; The rights come first and punishments folow; the opressive west supported regimes for their own advantage have misused the Shariah laws.

These harsh punishments are there whn the state provides all facilities to her citizens; they remain suspended till such time.

``..that most of my fellow Indian Muslim friends will be the first to take up arms agains you in case of another war``.

I am shivering in my shoes.

A few observations on ur posting:

1. You did not mention any deficiency in Shariah a single time all u did was to cite examples of despotic mostly anti islam regimes and their deeds.

2. Your study of islam, history and even current affairs is rather poor.

Some suggestions for reading:

1. Duniya par musalmanoan kay urroj o zawaal kay asaraat by syed abol hassan ali nadwi

2. Islami Riyasat by Mawdoodi

3. Traditional Islam in the Modern World by Sayyed Hossain Nasr

4. Islam aur Ghulami by Mawdoodi

After these please let me know and i will suggest some other books to improve ur understanding.

Adnan Khan

Try writing like this..

From The Indian Express today:


Pre-summit mood is pro-summit

By Prakash Nanda

IF the pre-summit mood in Pakistan is so optimistic these days, it is mainly due to a perceptible change in the average Pakistani mindset about India. Be it in Lahore, or Peshawar, or Islamabad, or Karachi, the general impression that this writer gathered during a just concluded visit to Pakistan is unmistakably clear. Pakistanis, like never before, realise that they have to live with India, not against it. Their stand on the so-called core issue of Kashmir is much more ‘flexible’ than anytime in the past. And their aversion towards conducting trade and commerce with India is much more diluted than ever before. Gone is the craze of projecting Pakistan as a ‘West Asian state’. Instead, Pakistanis are being increasingly convinced that their destiny lies within the subcontinent of South Asia.

Of course, the ranks of the ‘jehadis’ and fundamentalists in the country have swollen in recent years. However, they are still not strong enough to give one the impression in the streets and homes in Pakistan that the country cannot co-exist with India. More Pakistani men may now be growing beard. Similarly, more Pakistani women may have abandoned ‘sari’ in favour of ‘salwar-kameez’. But at the same time, almost all the Indian TV channels have now a dominating presence in Pakistani homes as never before. In fact, from 8.30 p.m. to 10.30 p.m. every weekday the Pakistani families are literally hooked to Kaun Banega Crorepati, Kahani Ghar Ghar Ki and Kyunki Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi.

In what would have been considered heretical a few years ago, many Pakistanis are now openly challenging in newspaper columns the country’s education system that has been injecting in the young minds the elements of anti-Indianism. ‘The ideology of Pakistan’ as taught to the students, sportsmen and bureaucrats is nothing except anti-India by using such phrases as ‘Hindu mentality’ and ‘devious Indian psyche’. Therefore, social scientists like Dr Inayatullah of Islamabad are now talking of the desirability of the Indian and Pakistani historians to write common textbooks.

Discerning Pakistanis are now pointing out how the anti-Hindu militant chauvinists have proved to be Frankenstein monsters who could turn against their creators any moment. Small wonder that General Musharraf has just launched a campaign against the war cries of the ‘irresponsible religious leaders’ who have undermined the country’s economic growth and distorted Pakistan’s image in the international community.

The growing perception is that Pakistan has not won the covert war in Kashmir, but its economy has been sacrificed considerably in the process. Very few responsible Pakistanis are now talking seriously of Islamabad’s traditional position of the implementation of the 1948 UN resolution. The catchword now is ‘flexibility’. In fact, it is just a new trend among the Pakistani scholars to see merits of other options on Kashmir that could maintain the territorial status quo of India and Pakistan with little modifications. Advocating a step-by-step approach, they want India to cooperate with Pakistan at the moment in working out a framework by which India’s military presence in Kashmir could be brought down to the pre-1989 level, Kashmiris’ fundamental rights could be restored, and above all, a mechanism is devised to facilitate the people on both sides of the line of control to visit each other, preferably through a bus service between Srinagar and Muzaffarbad.

The business circles would like the politics of the subcontinent not to dictate its economics. They are particularly keen on the over-land gasline from Iran to India through Pakistan.

However, will all this optimism be sustained under the regime of President Pervez Musharraf, the author of Kargil war? ‘‘Yes’’, say the thinking Pakistanis. For them, General Musharraf alone has the capacity to lead them on the road to reconciliation with India at Agra, as he wants to perpetuate the military’s legacy in the Pakistani polity. The theory is that if the Lahore Declaration in 1999 and the Shimla agreement in 1972 could not ensure peace, it was because these were brokered by the civilian prime ministers and the military did not like them to earn credits. The situation, this time, is different.

Re: Yawaah #25

Yaar I dont like giving you frequent English lessons but when you pointedly attribute certain adjectives to me I feel compelled to respond.

You call me a Pakistan hating, fascist fanatic.

The Encyclopedia Britannica describes Fascism as, ``emphasis on the nation, race or state as the center and regulator of all history and life and on the indisputable authority of the leader behind whom the people were expected to form an unbreakable unity``. So er... that`s not me. Just because you are not a fascist does not mean that everyone who disagrees with you is one. I can imagine you going to a restaurant and getting bad service and calling the waiter a fascist. Arre yaar while using adjectives at least stay remotely within the parameters of language!

The Webster`s dictionary defines the word `fanatic` as, ``marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion``. Again... dat not be me. In fact if one took a poll on Chowk about who best qualifies as the one exhibiting excessive enthusiasm & intense uncritical devotion, I suspect your bungling self would win in a landslide. So quit accusing other people of being what you secretly despise yourself of being.

And about being a Pakistani or Indian hater... again my little snot nosed friend, you have made all and sundry plenty aware of where and how your hatred for all things Indian arose & progressed. I am not the one making statements here wishing all Pakistanis death. You however have famously wished death upon a billion Indians.

And please do not give me your usual crap about how that statement was made under `extreme provocation`. At least have the balls to stand behind your statements you gutless little twit.

So in summation therefore. As per the English language I am neither a Fascist nor a fanatic. I am - by empirical demonstration - not a Pakistan hater either. Which means that you are either a liar or unfamiliar with English. Take your pick.

Your disappointed English teacher

Prof. Latif Chappu

Re: bhartiya_musalman, #58 & #60

To me it is totally irrelevant whether you are an RSS Hindu fundamentalist masquerading as an Indian Muslim.

I, for one, cannot disagree with what you had to say about the world of Islam, ie, those countries that are Muslim majority, particularly the Middle East, and the varied political and social systems they have adapted in this day and age. That is precisely the malaise Pakistan is currently trying to get out of; or, to be more accurate, those who truly love Pakistan want Pakistan not to emulate the rest of the Islamic world.

If Islam is to evolve, which, in my opinion, it stopped about 500 years ago, into a progressive and liberal social and political system that is more in tune with the twentyfirst century rather than the seventh, then it is Pakistan where Islam`s evolution to a higher level is to renew. That is my belief. I firmly believe that Pakistan is Islam`s last hope.

Now, lets come back to you and your friend Keerthik Sasidharan. Calling people like you two ``Hawks`` is an insult to that bird. The hawk is a freedom lover who spans the vastness of space, hence he can see far and therefore has vision.

You, and your friend Keerthik, are more like Bats, not Hawks. Bats are afraid of daylight when the things are clear, can be seen and analyzed. Daylight makes them blind. Bats live in the confinement and narrowness of a cave in the darkness of ignorance hanging upside down. That about sums you and Keerthik up.

Peace is the good path.

But some people like Keerthik have nothing but bad intent. People like Keerthik are one of the primary reasons we have high military spending & nukes in Pakistan. Oh well, we`re not there (peace) yet so its best to be prepared for all eventualities.

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Ref BM-Veeresh,

``You are really just an ethnocentric man caught up in your Punjabi identity and chasing after the mirage of Indo-Pak friendship``

Though you may not get full points for diplomacy I think you have a point :-)

soysauce:

off topic:

Have some friends who have worked /are working for Ahmed Zewail, and they have some very uncharitable things to say :-)

bharati musalman ( kae naam par bohat ghanda dhabba) to vereesh:

((((Give up your pathetic attempts at humour and your self-righteous posturing as a liberal apostle of peace and friendship.))))

He`s actually very funny.Why dont u try and be funny instead of bitchy for a change? hmmmn?

Feroze,

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe that the events of the past few months are an enourmous blessing in disguise for Pakistan. The removal of the Taliban implies that the oil and gas reserves of Central Asia can be accessed via Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan`s foreign policy should be tailored to make this happen, given the financial implications for Pakistan. Since Pakistan would control the access to cheap, abundunt energy resources, India would have to engage with Pakistan out of self-interest. The Indo-Iranian pipleine provides another such opportunity. By becoming a player in the oil industry, Pakistan can enrich itself and enhance its power.

The second factor is trade between Central Asia and South Asia. This is a hugely untapped opportunity, especially for the Indian manufacturing sector. Once again, Pakistan would provide the logistics, resulting in enormous economic benefit for Pakistan. A combination of oil and regional trade could change Pakistan`s fortunes. Even on Kashmir, India may be a lot more flexible, if there are strong financial issues at stake. The key thing is to shift Pakistan`s foreign policy from mindless India centric confrontation to developing economic strenth.

#51 nasah:

Isn’t it a bit too early, too cocky -- not to mention – sounding like

crass and crude expletives:

“Fundamental factors that need to be encouraged.

(1) Increased Defense Spending.

(2) Fiscal Responsibility and Economic Liberalization. (The

Government in the business of Governance)

(3) Encouragement of anti-Pakistani state factors, ranging from

tactic support to secessionists, encirclement of Pakistan

geographically with the Central Asian Republics, Iran, Qatar

(4) Unequivocal American ally.

(5) Continue to engage positively with Russia.

(6) Studied ambivalence towards China, with respect to defense

and foreign affairs. Challenge their increasing market presence

through legislation.

(7) Increase Naval Presence to controlling a sea-supply isthmus

for Pakistan. .

(8) Unite with Russia, China to ally against Islamic extremism.

(9) Electrification of Indo-Pak border.

(10) Strategic Pro-US, Pro-India media used to change the tone,

from indictment of Pakistan it must be the indictment of their

Government and not the people.

(11) Neutralization of Pakistan’s efforts to redefine its government.

(12) Systemic extermination of Jehadi networks within India – in a

manner a la Waco or Ruby Ridge.

(13) Create an appetite for power amidst local “serfs” within

Pakistan’s feudal landscape.

(14) Let talks on Kashmir continue between Pakistan and India

alone.

(15) Neutralize the Hurriyat politically and reduce them into

irrelevancy.

(16) Improve local schooling, employment, medicine and

bureaucracy in Kashmir simultaneously.

(17) Strengthen the RAW/IB/Military Intelligence with a coherent

external agenda and specialist directors”.

Why don`t you spell out which of these you found unpalatable? That would make for a more interesting conversation.

From my pov, (1) is iffy - with the high-tech bust, the revenues are falling and as it is too much money is being spent on the military. That`s why, the low-cost option, the one that pak has been engaged in may be desirable which leads to (3).

I think (8) is offensive. The brutalitites (to put it mildly) perpetrated in chechnya and xingyang (?), we should be no part of. It`s worth pointing out that while the jihadi camps in pak are sending fighters to chechnya, pak govt and citizens have not made a peep about what their historic ally has been doing to its muslim minority.

(9) is impractical.

(11), i`m afraid, Vajpayee has gone too far for that.

(12)& (13) sound like good STRATEGIC ideas but may not be practicable. I know (13) sounds like maoist revolution turned upside down; in a way, it`s what the kings and the monarchs used to do to contain the population. I`m not sure how I feel about this specifically.

(15) is already happening. Hurriyat has reduced itself to irrelevancy by offering nothing constructive or concrete.

Over to you.

SammerJB:

The India : China rivalry does not stem out of a deep rooted hostility. There is an issue with the border demarcation, but even that is a colonial hangover, which can be solved over a period of time, with face saving gestures from both sides. The rivalry however stems from the fact that both are comparatively large nations in the same neighborhood and they have respective self interests which are not always co-incidental. After all many Republican lawmakers view China as a rival and a potential threat, even though the two nations are not in proximity and do not have ideological baggage to deal with.

Tariq2World:#24

Tariq, I am a believer of the free market system and therefore have an abiding faith in the selfishness of human nature. Individuals get along because they get something out of the friendship, be it companionship, self-actualization ..whatever. In a similar sense nations get along with each other if there is something in it for them.

Don`t get me wrong. I`m not against peaceful co-existence between India and Pakistan. However, I`m convinced that there can only be a genuine peace if both nations feel that there is a peace dividend that can be earned. I will want peace if it benefits India, and you will want peace if it benefits Pakistan. It is only if the individuals of both countries desire peace under similar conditions, believing it to be in THEIR OWN NATIONAL INTEREST, that such peace be acheived, would a breakthrough be possible.

That is the essence of the point I was making. I hope my command of the English language is acceptable to Godot, since I did not have the good fortune of doing my third grade in his school. ;)

#60 Bharatiya Musalman

Ahmed Zewail, and egyptial-american and professor at caltech, won the 1999 nobel prize in chemistry. I don`t know if he is a practising muslim but he certainly was born one and educated in a muslim country. He graduated from the university of alexandria before coming to u.penn for his Ph.D. He became a full professor at caltech within 5 years. There are numerous scientists and engineers of great renown in the west who are muslim by birth. Self-criticism is good but it must be tempered by knowledge.

I would bet that Bharatiya Mussulman is a BJP supporting Hindu. I have known some nationalist Muslims, but this guy really takes the cake. He is the Fantasy Mussulman of the RSS types...the way they would like Indian Muslims to be....Again I`m not 100% sure...just sounds too much like a RSS Manifesto

ylh #33: Your comments about Sargodha college are interesting. I spent some of the best years of my life there, and graduated from there, with an utmost amount of respect for that institution.

I have lost touch with it over the past seven to ten years. But I am regularly in touch with people who graduated from there, and know many of the senior officers personally, including the Chief of Staff you mentioned.

Rest assured, it does not produce fanatics, by a far shot. It does not produce secularits either. It produces very balanced thinking patriotic Pakistanis (my info is current till early 90s), who are free to decide how secular or non-secular they want to be. I am still in touch with my friends who graduated from there, and who are now in the USA. I would rank them as the most successful Pakistanis I have met here. I would also rank them as the least fake, and the most balanced of the various Pakistani I have met here.

There is a difference in the way you and I view Pakistanis. I do not view them through a secular/religious pair of glasses. These two factors are immaterial to me. Neither has anything to do with progress, in my opinion. Pakistan will not become a better place just by becoming secular (or religious). I don`t think religion should even be part of the debate (this is different from what secular fanatics want; they want to forcibly remove religion from private and public life (even if it is against the will of the people), all together, and thus spend most of their working day debating religion).

Similarly, people`s capabilities cannot be viewed in a secular/religion light, either. The Chief of Staff you mentioned is quite secular, as were most of the people in the PAF, during those days (as well as nearly all my friends in the military now). Primarily because the Pakistan military, is by design, a secular institution, based on British traditions.

I have not evaluated him professionally in detail, but so far my opinion of his professionalism is the same as my opinion of most Pakistani Generals, i.e. quite low. On a personal note, I always found him to be somewhat of a fake. Much like the Turkish officer(s) I met on their exchange appointments in Pakistan. Anyone obsessed with acting like an American, while being a Turk or Pakistani, is suffering from an inferiority complex, regardless of how secular or islamist he/she maybe.

One cannot use secularism as a professional criteria, or as something inherently good or bad. That, in my opinion, is no different than using religionism as a professional criteria, and viewing it as inherently good or bad. The only criteria of advancement should be professionalism, within the rules and regulations of the institution. And a person and a society should be judged by the content of its character, not by lack or access of religion.

. . .small straw in the wind . . . Indian Railway Ministry announces non-budget/non-plan expenditure of about 17000 crore rupees for railway safety and modernisation, track renewal, bridge renewal (560 bridges are over 100 years old . . .and distressed) and computerisation.

. . .where will the money, technology and manpower come from?

. . .small bird told me ``reorganisation in Indian Armed Forces budget``.

. . . please let us all wake up and smell the coffee/tea.