Brahmin and Mullah

jntuece #161: `IT - The communities which gained the most are the forward castes - Brahmin revenge`

But thats why forward castes are forward castes - they are better equipped to take on the latest and best - it is but natural. On the flip side, according to a relative, socially also these castes are more progressive, in the sense that there are more inter-caste marriages among the brahmins, dowry problem is almost non-existent, and they adapt to the socio-economic changes more agressively than others.

No denying the power of knowledge!

There is only one arab wanna be amongst us, and that is bhartiya Musalman...

I pity Indian Muslims ... they can either be completely Arab... or completely Hindu... no moderation.. and then they call Pakistanis arab wannabes, because unlike some of them we are not racist!

Deoband is India, and their greatest Abu Al Kalaam Azaad was an Arab... that explains their confusion, bigotry and fanaticism!

I completely endorse the call to reform... but I hope fanatics like bhartiya are marginalized.

Long Live Pakistan

PM #146: Caste today is more a social feature than a religious one in the Indian society. Low caste families object to their children marrying the high caste people too. Its the case of a `different` caste among the educated lower castes.

Marriages between the Scheduled Caste (Hindus?) and the Chirstian converts from the same caste are not uncommon in AP.

PS: Of course it will be a while before there are converts from the warrior race in the subcontinent... :-)

sadna #158: creamy layer - yes the constitution does not permit distinction between the economically well-off as against the poor amongst the backward castes. The resverations ARE instituted for the socially discriminated castes (an aside - the ones that exist are not as described per the `hindu` varnasrama) and not the economically disadvantaged ones.

It takes a few generations for a (genuinely) socially backward group to rise to a higher rung in the society. One generation making it to the mark is not enough. It is a pity, and therein lies the challenge, that as a poor country with limited resources and distribution we are going through this process of offering special privileges to some groups. I think this among other tasks taken up by India since `47 points to the almost obscene idealism and optimism we nourished and continue to...

``When the better-off members of these communities go looking for political support among those who have not yet benefitted from affirmative action(or those suffering its ill effects such as eceonomically weak `forward` castes), these issues will have to be addressed.``

Perhaps adhering to the dictum that `lower classes wish to be led only by upper classes and not by their own`, AP does not have any pol. parties led by bc/sc/st sections :-). And the better off families among the lower castes are not only few and far in between but are usually disinterseted in any political process. From what I know most of these families are no diff from others in the society greed-wise. I know a miniscule number of people from educated families who did not exercise their right for resrv.

I think the AP state institued a small %age for the economically backward classes. Personally I am against the idea. [During the agitation against the Mandal recommendations I asked one of the student organizers why not ask for the govt to provide for empl for everybody - after all the `right to work` was a prominent election pledge by VP Singh - needless to say, the bloke stared at me for a few moments, before murmuring something and turning away :-). The question of providing jobs for everyone (thus catering to the EBCs) leads to a whole diff political system... Not that I do not know what you meant when you broached the topic.:-)]

Reservations as a state process may not be a bad idea - just that the states like Tamil Nadu may go berserk - last time I looked at the figures they had more than 65% seats reserved at the state level. This was 10 years ago. I do not favor endless fragmentation either and hope to see the day when they start removing entire castes (not just the creamy layer among them) from the bc/sc/st lists.

Isnt 50 years too short a span for such a massive socio-economic change? Just an opinion. (and my kids, if and when they are around, will not use the reservation system.)

SN:

Thanks for your ``late`` intimate to Sadhna. You should have done that earlier :(
[Takae`Unhaen Likhnae Kaa Kusht Naa Uthaana PuRtaa.]

Rather than being a silent spectator, why do not you resolve her query? I am sure you`d be able to enlighten her more than anyone around can do so. Wanna take a try ?

Please accept my heartiest apologies if the *wise crack * had far more wisdom than you were capable of comprehending. If you are from India, then you should have been able to understand that. Oh, I am sorry you couldn`t have done so, after all it was beautifully said by Shair`ae`Mushriq Sir Allama Iqbal from PUNJ-AB, Pakistan. Ouch, I forgot that.

On a relatively simpler note, I have no desire to participate in any *such * winding discussions with her. Having made some past observations, I`ve gotten to know her mindset pretty well. To inquire for the sake of information/knowledge is something different than to inquire for the sake of indulging in winding discussions [Haram...Haram - Waste of Time]. I`d rather not get into such duldul.

Also, I`d NEVER discuss my religion and its intricacies with Non-Muslims. You can NEVER make them understand CERTAIN ASPECTS for various reasons. You can talk about rituals to a certain EXTENT with them, but you cannot go all the way. Period! Now, I am assuming Sadhna is a grown-up woman; and would have some clue herself.

Take Care.

PS: I did not use the term ``lady`` as I am sick and tired of this gentleman and lady nonsense on chowk. Let`s be simple guys and gals or men and women. A polite request!




A General Note:

Just to clarify: TAhmed`s comments were the result of his repeated discussions with Sadhna; where he has been sumjhao-fying her many things ten million times. She still comes back after every 5-6 articles and brings forth her wise interpretations that need a blessing - ghumma phiraa kae. I am pretty sure that he never implied or intended any personal insult to her. It was her IQ that was in question after those repeated *shikshaas * by TAhmed.

Also, my standing ovation to him was on the gist of his post than anything else. I will do that again.[Standing Ovation!!!]

Just wanted to clear that to people from Indo-Pak region; where in summers, humans start losing their composure, due to excessive gurmee. And also have a very grim sense of humor. In fact, na hoane kae brabur :(

To All the Participants on this board:

Rather than lurnaa murnaa [meaning friendly interacts], I suggest please try:

- chilled mango milk-shake

or

- thandi numkeen lassi. The lassi should be thick one. Do not go for any kanjoosi in using yogurt.

Kind Regards to all.

Eklavya #302 Hobbyty: I think the caste system, and indeed stereotyping of any kind (based on ethnicity, religion, nationality and so on), are all manifestations of the same trait in human nature - a ``short-cut`` classification of an individual. It probably goes back millions of years when people formed hunter-gatherer tribes that fought tooth and nail for limited resources. It was clearly a win-lose situation in such primitive societies and such stereotyping helped. In an increasingly affluent world (and lets face it, that is where the world is headed at lightning speed by historical standards - even a 1% annual per capita growth rate is several times higher than was the world`s average for the past 5000 years for example) and in human societies that are beyond the hunter-gatherer stage, this makes no sense any more. And that is why I agree that the intellectual debate is basically over, not just in India but world-wide.

What is left is the instinct built up over millions of years. It is this instinct that is now as atavistic as the tail bone. This instinct (or rather it`s manifestations like the caste system) can be curbed by law, but ultimately (as Eklayva says) has to be taken out of a person as a child through teaching at the kindergarten level. It in fact needs to be REPLACED by a new instinct - respect and appreciation for all groups of people. Armed with this instinct, an individual will go much further in the modern world than with the ``old`` instinct of us vs. them. In the US they teach this very deliberately - and any parent with a US born child knows better than to talk ill of any group (blacks, whites, chinese, American Indians, whatever) in front of the child. These children can smell a such bigotted statement in a moment as I think most South Asian immigrant parents to the US may have realized :-). This is the training we need to give to children in the sub-continent as well.

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To Bhartiya Confused:

`Will we Muslims have the courage to reform our Religion and free it from the clutches of Arabs and Arab Slaves like Klutz, Studebaker and Hamdani-bhai?`

I suppose I became an Arab Slave when I wrote an article about Bin Tilak and Bin Gokhale ... two great Arab leaders right?

Grow up little boy...

-YLH

And we have `friend` the person who probably ran away from an insane assylum teaching people lessons in `level headedness`.

Sadna 316

Sadna at trial here is your deliberate and absolutely misleading use of words. I am fired left and right eventhough I quote Gandhi completely and 100% accurately, and here you are absolutely lying completely. You arguments are rendered invalid because your shameless lying!

All your questions have been answered very well by a lot of chowkies on this board. I personally dont see the reason why we should continue to explain something to a person who is not only pig headed but a shameless liar!

Now you are uttering some obscure words about tahmed`s (and mine) mullahism and caste system? You are entitled to your pathetic lying and continuous distortion.

And when you start thinking about leads, start thinking about all the women who are much worse off in India as illustrated so well by many posters... and believe the number of deliberately

non-franchised women in India is greater than a hundred or two hundred thousand women.

Re: #273

``You are mistaken! No image comes to my mind when I think of the word Allah or God.``

hobbyty,

I think you confuse the word `image` = `idol`. When I said image, I didn`t mean idol only. More precisely - an image is a set of qualities (either real or imagined).

It cannot be as you say - that absolutely no `mental` image is associated in your mind about the word `Allah`.

When you say ``Allah, the most merciful, the most powerful, etc`` you are defining His qualities, aren`t you? Thats your image - a mentally generated image of a merciful, allpowerful, allknowing being (without an actual form of

course like the hindus/christians have) - but an image nevertheless. Is this too difficult to see?

When we pray, I mean REALLY pray (say in an emergency) we are actually imploring someone. You will not deny this I hope. Do we implore to a vacuum???

The difference between a mental image and a clay one is quite trivial, isn`t it? Both create an object (with certain qualities) to help focus the mind in prayer.

regards,

Eklavya

The ``Samachar`` article and the previous ones in the ``Hindu`` are directed towards positioning on the UN debate of racism and discrimination

No one wants to diminsh claims of ``great strides``, however; the fact the self help groups within castes now manuver towards interest group politics, suggests that caste biases remain operative and now channel their caste biases through politics.

ZZ

Idolatory for those who wish to do so is, as far as I`m concerned. OK, for them!

I was pointing out that traditional Hindu worship does not conform to the definition of idolatory. But if you say it is, OK for you.

My intention was not offer offense, if I have, please accept my apology.

Bharatya Musalman

Why don`t you start your own sect? You take the lead. Most people don`t have the choice to be a leader or a follower, you do. You can exercise your personal Ijtehad - your own freedom of conscience.

Earlier post is perhaps still with chowk censor.

tahmek #268

``.. I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach... ``

Are you referring Sadna to same barber who, while doing khatna, cut your`s ``y&lh`` to a cockroach`s size.

tahmed to sadna

[I think your head is made of wood and you are incapable of understanding this. Instead of wasting months and months on Chowk and learning nothing (as is true in your case), I think you should try to improve your IQ by having your village barber transplant your brain with that of a cockroach.]

tahmed #268

You were way out of ur line there. You Sir, really disappointed many.

Sadna

I have noticed Zahra, use this kind of excuse/escape once too often. So, dont bother asking her any Q`s in the future. She`ll come up with some sort of wise-crack (mostly in urdu) and leave it at that.

---SN

klutz

((Anyway everyone knows whats happening in palestine and kashmir... also what happened in bosnia etc.Does anyone care?No!!1000 of muslims are being killed,molested,harrassed,beaten to death,etc etc and no one is doind anything...there is almost no media coverage.Yet when something happens to a non-muslim ,or God Forbid a muslims kills a non-muslim it makes the headlines...Front PAGEE!!

Muslims being harrassed is old news now.. its not important any more!right????!!?!??!Sheesh!!and then u guys have the nerve to call me bigoted!! * * *

Atleast our newspapers print a somewhat fairer picture of what really happened if not the entire truth!!If u wantt to read about what muslims are going through then i believe pakistani newspapers are better for that purpose.I am not saying they present an entire picture of what really is going on...believe me no newspaper presents the true picture!! American newspapers are biased towards muslims and muslim countries!!and i know that for sure!!))

hullo klutz

..may i take this very true post as a chance to welcome you here...its so funny how most of these dudooz manage to put it all on us...``pakistanis and muslims are intolerant nya nya nya nya`` while right here on chowk u have a whole band of them not only tearing to bits the country and having a ball at it but also saying things about our religious figures...highly offensive things...and then they quote from papers about isolated incidences making sweeeeeping generalizations as though it were the gospel...the same case with what u just said above...about bloody time somebody with sass showed up...:o)

love,

anNy

Sadhna Dear:

Chunda, if you cannot be a disciple then have the nerve to say so. Please do not misread my shikshaa. That was heart bleeding! [Tears]


(Sweet)friend:

Thank you for your amusing shikwah.

Well, I wanted to mingle with the rest therefore had to acquire their traits :) Do I need to say anything more after that?[with a very innocent face]


For both of you: